Comments about ‘Concurrent enrollment fading away?’

Concurrent enrollment is a joke and the colleges know it - that is why very few administrators and professors on campus try to keep it alive. High schools are to blame - they let it run amok during the gravy train days when it brought lots of money to their schools. High school teachers loved it because it was a way fro them to get out of regular work and mess around with all kinds of crazy classes. If they had stayed with the plan of offering basic college courses on a limited basis and with serious supervision then the universities would likely be supporting it today. Most students who took these courses liked getting college credit but if they were being honest they would tell you that the rigor of these courses is not college level.

This is absurd. It's a place where we can really get some bang for the buck in education. I have enjoyed having motivated high school kids in my community college classes. To ever get in a power struggle over whose job it is to educate is meaningless. It's a job for all of us. Kids benefit and it's very cost effective, particularly to parents. It should be expanded dramatically. If a child isn't ready for college, don't take the college class as a high school student. But keep it available at the college campus for those who want to start a transition to a more academically rigorous environment.

I called up Utah State University and Weber State about AP physics credit. They each told me thatAP physics, credits will count only if the student is not majoring in physics or a related subject such as engineering. However AP credits will be accepted if for example the student is majoring in English, as a required physics credit.

When I asked why, each said their school does not trust the Utah High Schools to teach physics at a degree of quality required by their university.

Can't say I am surprised. Math education quality in the high schools has really gone down hill since I attended high school a few years ago in Utah.

When is something going to be done about the quality of the offerings in Utah schools?

Maybe high school students should be high school students, and go to college after finishing high school. As a college instructor, there is nothing worse than whiny spoiled youngsters who think that college should be a breeze because their concurrent enrollment classes were. I don't blame the universities. They are simply trying to raise their own standards. Many high school students end up retaking classes because they weren't adequately prepared anyway, even if they did get A's in their concurrent enrollment classes.

AP classes in my day were a waste of time. Any serious student could get into a community or state college and take prerequisite courses regardless of high school status.

I took college classes at night after my regular high school day, and results were much better than taking AP courses. The professors were always shocked to learn a 16 year old was in their class with 19-20 year olds. I loved the novelty and flexibility of those classes.

We're awfully quick to point at the quality of education and blame teachers. How about students who refuse to do homework and expect good grades anyway and parents who take their student on extended vacations during the school year and expect good grades anyway.

We have students whose only aim is to get a good grade while doing the least amount possible.

We have teachers who are frustrated in trying to maintain rigor when parents demand that their child not be held to a higher standard and administrators who back the parents.

need to visit some of our High Schools. They will see a very poor learning environment that is not good enough for High School classes and sure as heck is not good enough for College courses. They are out of touch and trying to get extra money by increasing a poorly run program.

The lack of quality is leaking from the high schools to the Universities. It is only a matter of time. For example, Utah State now uses a pre-calculus book that is much less rigorous than the trig and college algebra that I took when in high school. I don't blame Utah State, quality texts today are harder to find.

BYU is allowing its math education department to teach Honors Calcalus. The math education dept has taken out much of the rigor out of Calculus, and as a result the students taking the common math test do less well than students taking calculus from the math dept. Hopefully BYU will mend its ways.

My experience was that college courses were no tougher than my high school AP/Concurrent enrollment classes. In fact, the two lowest grades I received in all of my collegiate credits were two grades I got while still a high school student.

To say that all concurrent enrollment classes are poorly taught is an exaggeration. There are many teachers across the state who consistently hold their students to a high level of expectation and enforce rigorous standards. There are students in all of our high schools who are capable of college level work and they should have the opportunity to do so. Saying that concurrent enrollment classes should only be allowed on college campuses penalizes students in rural areas where that is not an option.

As long as we elect representatives who want to lower taxes at all costs, we will be harder to attract the quality and dedicated teachers necessary to improve Utah education quality.


re I don't see the difference
I am a parent, and I definately see the difference between the quality of the college algebra my son is now taking and the college algebra I took when I was young. He had to spend the first 2 months reviewing earlier algebra and the problems they are given is a lot easier than the ones I had when I took the class.

My AP classes in High School were much more difficult to pass with college credit than most college classes. I feel like I learned more in a smaller HS class rather than 1 of 250 that you get at most universities. If they simply bussed capable HS students to Universities, the legislator could do something they all wish they could do, fire teachers ;) Seems like this hasn't been well thought out by abyone involved.

Point of order-

Advanced Placement classes (AP) and Concurrent Enrollment classes (CE) are not the same thing.

A.P. classes are intended to better prepare students to take an A.P. examination. College credit is only available with a high enough score on the test.

C.E. classes are equivalent to enrolling in a college course. The classwork may be delivered at either the High School or the College Campus. The grade for the class goes on a students permanent transcript.

I taught the exact same classes on the college campus and in the high school classroom. I used the exact same textbook, gave the exact same tests and assignments, and graded on the same criteria. My high school students were taken from those who were just below the AP Calculus level. My college students were quite a mixed group becaue I was teaching night classes. The main difference was that the college semester was 15 weeks and the HS was 20 weeks. Otherwise the rigor was identical.

The main concern some colleges and universities have is that when their enrollment declines, they think that the concurrent classes are stealing students (read $$$) from them. I think that is what it is all about.

As another has written, I too teach college classes in which CE students sometimes enroll. They meet the same standards as my regular undergrad students. If they don't, they don't get credit. It is also possible to take my class not at the college campus, but at the high school. The teacher at the high school must meet the college qualifications to teach a college class and becomes an adjunct professor. The kids get a rigorous education. If not, it is because the teacher dumbed-down the class. In my experience, the kids who take these classes are exceptional students, not the average high school student. To suggest that they are looking for the path of least resistance diminishes their efforts are lumps them with the ordinary slugs you see produced by public education. CE is one of the bright spots in a dismal public education system. I know how ineffective public ed can be because I get many of those lazy students in my classroom after they finish high school. Don't bash exceptional students for the failures of the average kids. YOUR kids.

"BYU Contributing to Problem" makes a serious point. Education departments in Utah have become top heavy in theoretical pedagogy. Instead of focusing on core basics, they spend the majority of their time teaching pedagogy or to the layman philosophies of teaching. They have wrestled math classes away from math departments and dumbed the classes down, which has gutting our math instruction in K12.

Utah Valley State College, who had a chance to change this downhill slide, took the easy way out by following BYU and Weber. They took the diploma mill approach and created a degree without rigor. The new degree has no core subjects such as English, Math and Science. One track is simple theoretical pedagogy, the other is English as a Second Language. These degrees will do absolutely nothing to raise the educational bar in English, Math and Sciences in our public schools.

Being an AP teacher, I believe students can learn more than they would at the university. I often have students enrolled in classes at the U of U come back and ask for copies of my class notes, assignments, etc. They remembered most of the information and then knew they could come to me for help and get further understanding. Saying that high school teachers are incapable of teaching at a college level is absurd. We may not teach it the same way but it is just as effective.

The best thing about the AP program is that the college board works closely with the universities across the country to put standards on what is deemed a "high enough" score on the test to merit college credit (shows proficiency). With CE, however, most of the teachers are on their own and are not monitored by the proctor community college from which most CE classes come from. Most students taking CE classes are trying to get their associates out of high school and opt to take CE over AP because, and they admit it, it is easier and less demanding for them to get the credit without care of quality.

I am a high school student currently taking 4 Concurrent Enrollment Classes. At the end of the month I will be graduating with my Associate's Degree. It hasn't been the easiest route and I may not have gotten the best grades. But I did the work and put in my time. If a student wants to take the classes let them. The only person they can hurt is themselves.

bbparkman,

You wrote that AP classes were a joke in your day. I am sorry to hear that. I also hope that your experience was an exception.

The quality of an AP class depends on the quality of the teaching and the rigor of the class. If those aspects are lacking then the AP class is not worth taking. However, the same can be said for any college course.

With an AP course, if the student doesn't know the material then they will not score a 3, 4 or 5 which is required for college credit at most institutions of higher learning. Many colleges now only give credit for 4s and 5s and place other restrictions on AP credit. Those scores serve to assure teaching quality and student knowledge. Colleges can't (or shouldn't) argue that that isn't the case.

I think a valid argument MIGHT be that an AP course doesn't cover the breadth or depth of material that a college course does. However, I think the real issue is money and control--by granting AP credits colleges "lose" money that they would otherwise receive if students took the classes there.

Hopefully you would see through the answer you got and press for a better answer as to why the schools are not giving credit for a NATIONAL exam. To say they don't trust the quality of the instruction in Utah is one thing. But to deny credit that a student earned on a national exam is another - their argument is flawed at the core! If the student passed the AP test, regardless of what they have or have not learned in class, they should get the college credit.