Deseret News | Concurrent enrollment fading away?

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Concurrent enrollment fading away?

End Concurrent Enrollment | 3:19 a.m. May 12, 2008

Concurrent enrollment is a joke and the colleges know it - that is why very few administrators and professors on campus try to keep it alive. High schools are to blame - they let it run amok during the gravy train days when it brought lots of money to their schools. High school teachers loved it because it was a way fro them to get out of regular work and mess around with all kinds of crazy classes. If they had stayed with the plan of offering basic college courses on a limited basis and with serious supervision then the universities would likely be supporting it today. Most students who took these courses liked getting college credit but if they were being honest they would tell you that the rigor of these courses is not college level.

professor | 5:21 a.m. May 12, 2008

This is absurd. It's a place where we can really get some bang for the buck in education. I have enjoyed having motivated high school kids in my community college classes. To ever get in a power struggle over whose job it is to educate is meaningless. It's a job for all of us. Kids benefit and it's very cost effective, particularly to parents. It should be expanded dramatically. If a child isn't ready for college, don't take the college class as a high school student. But keep it available at the college campus for those who want to start a transition to a more academically rigorous environment.

Utah School Quality Lacking | 6:33 a.m. May 12, 2008

I called up Utah State University and Weber State about AP physics credit. They each told me thatAP physics, credits will count only if the student is not majoring in physics or a related subject such as engineering. However AP credits will be accepted if for example the student is majoring in English, as a required physics credit.

When I asked why, each said their school does not trust the Utah High Schools to teach physics at a degree of quality required by their university.

Can't say I am surprised. Math education quality in the high schools has really gone down hill since I attended high school a few years ago in Utah.

When is something going to be done about the quality of the offerings in Utah schools?

Comments continue below

Jack | 6:57 a.m. May 12, 2008

Maybe high school students should be high school students, and go to college after finishing high school. As a college instructor, there is nothing worse than whiny spoiled youngsters who think that college should be a breeze because their concurrent enrollment classes were. I don't blame the universities. They are simply trying to raise their own standards. Many high school students end up retaking classes because they weren't adequately prepared anyway, even if they did get A's in their concurrent enrollment classes.

bhparkman | 7:16 a.m. May 12, 2008

AP classes in my day were a waste of time. Any serious student could get into a community or state college and take prerequisite courses regardless of high school status.

I took college classes at night after my regular high school day, and results were much better than taking AP courses. The professors were always shocked to learn a 16 year old was in their class with 19-20 year olds. I loved the novelty and flexibility of those classes.

Navyvet | 7:19 a.m. May 12, 2008

We're awfully quick to point at the quality of education and blame teachers. How about students who refuse to do homework and expect good grades anyway and parents who take their student on extended vacations during the school year and expect good grades anyway.

We have students whose only aim is to get a good grade while doing the least amount possible.

We have teachers who are frustrated in trying to maintain rigor when parents demand that their child not be held to a higher standard and administrators who back the parents.

The State Board Members | 7:25 a.m. May 12, 2008

need to visit some of our High Schools. They will see a very poor learning environment that is not good enough for High School classes and sure as heck is not good enough for College courses. They are out of touch and trying to get extra money by increasing a poorly run program.

BYU Contributing to Problem | 7:45 a.m. May 12, 2008

The lack of quality is leaking from the high schools to the Universities. It is only a matter of time. For example, Utah State now uses a pre-calculus book that is much less rigorous than the trig and college algebra that I took when in high school. I don't blame Utah State, quality texts today are harder to find.

BYU is allowing its math education department to teach Honors Calcalus. The math education dept has taken out much of the rigor out of Calculus, and as a result the students taking the common math test do less well than students taking calculus from the math dept. Hopefully BYU will mend its ways.

I don't see the difference. | 7:45 a.m. May 12, 2008

My experience was that college courses were no tougher than my high school AP/Concurrent enrollment classes. In fact, the two lowest grades I received in all of my collegiate credits were two grades I got while still a high school student.

Grad | 7:53 a.m. May 12, 2008

To say that all concurrent enrollment classes are poorly taught is an exaggeration. There are many teachers across the state who consistently hold their students to a high level of expectation and enforce rigorous standards. There are students in all of our high schools who are capable of college level work and they should have the opportunity to do so. Saying that concurrent enrollment classes should only be allowed on college campuses penalizes students in rural areas where that is not an option.

What can we do? | 7:57 a.m. May 12, 2008

As long as we elect representatives who want to lower taxes at all costs, we will be harder to attract the quality and dedicated teachers necessary to improve Utah education quality.

re I don't see the difference
I am a parent, and I definately see the difference between the quality of the college algebra my son is now taking and the college algebra I took when I was young. He had to spend the first 2 months reviewing earlier algebra and the problems they are given is a lot easier than the ones I had when I took the class.

wallofvoodoo | 8:23 a.m. May 12, 2008

My AP classes in High School were much more difficult to pass with college credit than most college classes. I feel like I learned more in a smaller HS class rather than 1 of 250 that you get at most universities. If they simply bussed capable HS students to Universities, the legislator could do something they all wish they could do, fire teachers ;) Seems like this hasn't been well thought out by abyone involved.

Teacher | 8:35 a.m. May 12, 2008

Point of order-

Advanced Placement classes (AP) and Concurrent Enrollment classes (CE) are not the same thing.

A.P. classes are intended to better prepare students to take an A.P. examination. College credit is only available with a high enough score on the test.

C.E. classes are equivalent to enrolling in a college course. The classwork may be delivered at either the High School or the College Campus. The grade for the class goes on a students permanent transcript.

Former Concurrent Teacher | 9:02 a.m. May 12, 2008

I taught the exact same classes on the college campus and in the high school classroom. I used the exact same textbook, gave the exact same tests and assignments, and graded on the same criteria. My high school students were taken from those who were just below the AP Calculus level. My college students were quite a mixed group becaue I was teaching night classes. The main difference was that the college semester was 15 weeks and the HS was 20 weeks. Otherwise the rigor was identical.

The main concern some colleges and universities have is that when their enrollment declines, they think that the concurrent classes are stealing students (read $$$) from them. I think that is what it is all about.

Teacher | 9:13 a.m. May 12, 2008

As another has written, I too teach college classes in which CE students sometimes enroll. They meet the same standards as my regular undergrad students. If they don't, they don't get credit. It is also possible to take my class not at the college campus, but at the high school. The teacher at the high school must meet the college qualifications to teach a college class and becomes an adjunct professor. The kids get a rigorous education. If not, it is because the teacher dumbed-down the class. In my experience, the kids who take these classes are exceptional students, not the average high school student. To suggest that they are looking for the path of least resistance diminishes their efforts are lumps them with the ordinary slugs you see produced by public education. CE is one of the bright spots in a dismal public education system. I know how ineffective public ed can be because I get many of those lazy students in my classroom after they finish high school. Don't bash exceptional students for the failures of the average kids. YOUR kids.

Professor | 9:19 a.m. May 12, 2008

"BYU Contributing to Problem" makes a serious point. Education departments in Utah have become top heavy in theoretical pedagogy. Instead of focusing on core basics, they spend the majority of their time teaching pedagogy or to the layman philosophies of teaching. They have wrestled math classes away from math departments and dumbed the classes down, which has gutting our math instruction in K12.

Utah Valley State College, who had a chance to change this downhill slide, took the easy way out by following BYU and Weber. They took the diploma mill approach and created a degree without rigor. The new degree has no core subjects such as English, Math and Science. One track is simple theoretical pedagogy, the other is English as a Second Language. These degrees will do absolutely nothing to raise the educational bar in English, Math and Sciences in our public schools.

? | 9:41 a.m. May 12, 2008

Being an AP teacher, I believe students can learn more than they would at the university. I often have students enrolled in classes at the U of U come back and ask for copies of my class notes, assignments, etc. They remembered most of the information and then knew they could come to me for help and get further understanding. Saying that high school teachers are incapable of teaching at a college level is absurd. We may not teach it the same way but it is just as effective.

The best thing about the AP program is that the college board works closely with the universities across the country to put standards on what is deemed a "high enough" score on the test to merit college credit (shows proficiency). With CE, however, most of the teachers are on their own and are not monitored by the proctor community college from which most CE classes come from. Most students taking CE classes are trying to get their associates out of high school and opt to take CE over AP because, and they admit it, it is easier and less demanding for them to get the credit without care of quality.

High School Student | 9:42 a.m. May 12, 2008

I am a high school student currently taking 4 Concurrent Enrollment Classes. At the end of the month I will be graduating with my Associate's Degree. It hasn't been the easiest route and I may not have gotten the best grades. But I did the work and put in my time. If a student wants to take the classes let them. The only person they can hurt is themselves.

Anonymous | 10:08 a.m. May 12, 2008

bbparkman,

You wrote that AP classes were a joke in your day. I am sorry to hear that. I also hope that your experience was an exception.

The quality of an AP class depends on the quality of the teaching and the rigor of the class. If those aspects are lacking then the AP class is not worth taking. However, the same can be said for any college course.

With an AP course, if the student doesn't know the material then they will not score a 3, 4 or 5 which is required for college credit at most institutions of higher learning. Many colleges now only give credit for 4s and 5s and place other restrictions on AP credit. Those scores serve to assure teaching quality and student knowledge. Colleges can't (or shouldn't) argue that that isn't the case.

I think a valid argument MIGHT be that an AP course doesn't cover the breadth or depth of material that a college course does. However, I think the real issue is money and control--by granting AP credits colleges "lose" money that they would otherwise receive if students took the classes there.

Re: UT School Quality Lacking | 10:09 a.m. May 12, 2008

Hopefully you would see through the answer you got and press for a better answer as to why the schools are not giving credit for a NATIONAL exam. To say they don't trust the quality of the instruction in Utah is one thing. But to deny credit that a student earned on a national exam is another - their argument is flawed at the core! If the student passed the AP test, regardless of what they have or have not learned in class, they should get the college credit.

re Professor | 9:19 a.m. | 10:18 a.m. May 12, 2008

"They have wrestled math classes away from math departments and dumbed the classes down, which has gutting our math instruction in K12".

If math education departments are ruining math, why do Utah universities continue to have these departmets. Why aren't they gotten rid of?

lacking quality? | 10:36 a.m. May 12, 2008

The reason that AP classes often don't count for those majoring in those fields is because AP usually only covers the 101 classes, which are for the GE requirements. But, if you're in the major, then you have to take the 105 classes to start, and AP doesn't cover those.

Concerned Parent | 10:44 a.m. May 12, 2008

Higher Ed has always been about the $$$. Concurrent Enrollment has the best return on investment of any state education progam. Why should a student take identical courses twice? That is exactly what is happening in may cases, and tax payers end up paying twice, once for the WPU and once for university FTEs.

As an educator, concurrent enrollment provides an avenue for my kids to get a leg up on college. College faculty don't care because in many cases, their kids get free tuition at the institution they teach at.

Higher ed also talks about quality of instruction. My experience has been that many freshman are stacked 100-500 in an an auditorim and that courses are taught by foreign graduate students who may or may not have a command of the English language. I would much rather have my child taught by a TRAINED high school teacher in a classroom of 20-40 students.

College/University Presidents and department deans should not have the authority to decide on whether or not concurrent enrollment is offered by their institution. CE should be a directive from the Governor's office and the legislature for the economic and educational growth of the State.

High School Student | 10:58 a.m. May 12, 2008

? you said that those wanting their associates degree out of high school "it is easier and less demanding for them to get the credit". I'm not sure what school you teach at but at my school the CE classes are just as hard or harder than some of the AP classes. I have taken 5 AP courses and the AP courses and CE courses are comparable in difficulty. The only true difference between the two is the length of time in the course.

BH | 11:41 a.m. May 12, 2008

Why do we expect our HS students to get an equivelant education in a class taught in HS, to one they would get at a college or university?

With no disrespect intended, but why would we expect a HS teacher to be on the same level as a college or university professor? What HS teacher who is sufficiently qualified to teach on a college or university level, would still be teaching at a HS?

Matthew | 12:30 p.m. May 12, 2008

Education is a cummulative phenomena. To pretend you can learn higher level material before, or concurrently with, the lower level material is to fail to grasp the concept. By offering such options it hurts all of higher education by sending the message that a degree from a university is simply a set of hoops to jump through in whatever order you want. People that want a university education should get one. Those that simply want a key to a vocation should be offer some sort of technical certification offered through a community college. But refering to it as a college degree confuses the issue of what kind of education a person has received.

All high school students should be concentrating on getting the best high school education they can to prepare them for whatever they pursue next. "Keep your eye on the ball" is a phrase with some wisdom if applied well.

re lacking quality? | 10:36 a.m | 12:33 p.m. May 12, 2008

Thats funny. Utah universities tell me they reject the AP credits because Utah schools don't teach the AP courses with the rigor they ought to.

University of California at Stanford accepts AP credits for incoming physics majors. But Utah schools won't.

One Utah physics teacher I talked to told me he would like to increase the rigor in his AP physics classes, but he can't because his students aren't mathematically prepared.

Henry Drummond | 12:42 p.m. May 12, 2008

As a college professor I have seen concurrent enrollment work. Unfortunately, in the majority of cases it is a dismal failure. I find over and over again that students do not have the skills to continue on to the next level.

The reason is testing. In the cases where I see concurrent enrollment work, students have to come and take tests alongside regular college students in an on-campus testing center. Usually this will be a mid-term and a final. Passing those tests will determine whether they get college credit or not for the class.

Under those circumstances I have seen students become very motivated and drive the teaching process. I hope that administrators and legislators will look at that aspects rather than just complaining.

Emily Marie | 1:16 p.m. May 12, 2008

I am currently attending Itineris Early College High School. (IECHS.ORG) Our schools curriculum is 90% concurrent enrollment. Having CE in our high schools gives students who wouldnï¿½t have a chance to go to college get a college education. I know being in CE classes compared to high school classes kicked my trash when I first started. It really does prepare us for college at a university. We learn to study because we know it depends on test scores rather than assignments just like in REAL college. CE classes not only teach us to study, but time management. To be honest, taking out CE out of high schools would not be beneficial to your future or anyone elseï¿½s. Utah needs educated citizens and this is the BEST way to do so!

C/C/E Teacher | 1:22 p.m. May 12, 2008

I have taught concurrent enrollment classes for many years. I have a Bachelors and two Masters degrees. I take exception to the comments about h.s. teachers being less capable of teaching the college level classes.

My students are bright, motivated, hard working and capable and should be given every opportunity to achieve their college credits while in h.s. Concurrent Enrollment is a democratic program, open to all h.s. students, an opportunity to take college classes for credit, while in high school. Tax paying parents should stand up and voice their approval.

College is expensive and this is one way to ease the economic burden on the parents and the students in some small way. This issue is really about money. The college wants 100% of the money and they will receive that funding if they force all concurrent students to attend the classes on their campuses. Not every student has transportation and this will limit access to all.

Declining enrollment on the college campus is an issue to be addressed, but concurrent enrollment students or teachers should not be penalized in an effort to solve that problem.

Roosevelt | 1:28 p.m. May 12, 2008

I see a lot of people out there with out a clue. I don't know about your schools but all our courses are taught from Logan (SSTV) or a full time USU instructor. Yes we have a few highschool teacher with masters degrees teaching. EVERYONE is qualified. The instruction is better then what I got at UNLV. I have a 16 year old with no where to go to school with out college classes. I also have a 13 year old started in college and I have to pay for the classes until she is 15. By then she will be done. At Union we have the highest graduation rate in the state. We are one of the smallest high schools but we have about 40 kids get their Associates degree every year . Trust me the class I took with my daughter, was no cake walk she invests a lot of time to studying. The slow scan TV is a really hard way to take a class. Without the instructor present it is really tough. So the classes she is taking are the same ones taught on Loganï¿½s campus.

Re: What can we do | 1:41 p.m. May 12, 2008

You are so right - all of education problem would instantly be solved if we just unlocked the bankrolls and spent money on teachers and schools. After all, many studies have shown that adding money into the problem makes if feel better instantly.

C.E. was hard! | 2:12 p.m. May 12, 2008

I took some C.E. classes in high school. They were my toughest classes!

Which schools? | 3:08 p.m. May 12, 2008

Which schools are they talking about? Why is there no response from college/university administrations in this article? Shouldn't balanced reporting require that there be some sort of response? There are only two schools left in the state that are considered two-year associates degree-producing schools - Salt Lake Community College and Snow College. I happen to know that SLCC is committed to the concurrent enrollment program, despite some of the inconveniences it causes them. This criticism does very little good unless we can get some real data about specific schools to back it up.

Former teacher | 3:20 p.m. May 12, 2008

I see valid comments and concerns on both sides. A lot of High School teachers are just as capable as college instructors--probably more capable even than the graduate student instructors colleges frequently use. (I was both; I felt I was a better teacher at the high school level because I had a little more experience by then. I taught math.) But high school teachers are a mixed bag--some are capable, even wonderful--whereas others are a joke.

For too long it seems that state teacher requirements emphasized pedagogy requirements (pedagogy instruction changes constantly, as it's based on the latest educational fad) at the expense of substantive subject-specific requirements. Thankfully NCLB's well-qualified requirements started to change that. (As an aside, I agree with a previous poster: it's utterly ridiculous and unnecessary to have both a "Mathematics" Department and a separate "Math Education" Department.)

But then, universities that heavily use graduate teaching instructors in those same concurrent enrollment-level class (and which universities don't?) seem to have little leg to stand on if they complain about the quality of concurrent enrollment instruction in the high schools.

We'll likely hear not much more public debate on this--both sides will be caught with their pants down.

A Mom | 5:09 p.m. May 12, 2008

I have one son in his second/senior year at the U of U and one still in H.S. The older got his Assoc. Degree while in H.S. through C.E. and A.P., and has been a great student--earning good grades in those advanced classes and fully prepared for his university classes. My younger son, just 14, is enrolled in one A.P. course now, and will start his first C.E. course in June. He is up to the task, or he wouldn't be there. Now, it's up to our politicians and, in our case SLCC, to see that motivated students are allowed to continue to take college classes, giving them a headstart on their university and graduate degrees.

Tomorrow | 6:16 p.m. May 12, 2008

I will be taking my fourth AP test. Coming from someone who has taken AP courses in BC calculus, U.S. History, Music Theory, and Chemistry I can say that AP courses are no shortcut but the reward for taking the courses makes it worth it. I do not care about getting credit for college now; the real value of the classes was to learn how to learn. The real difference in college will be the study habits that I now have. The main reason for taking these classes was because they were tougher than the standard high school classes, including the all the CE classes. The college credit is just a bonus to take higher level classes and broaden my range of studies after I graduate.

Not Up To Par | 8:09 p.m. May 12, 2008

I am a senior in high school and will be graduating in June with my associate degree. I have
taken numerous CE and AP classes. The caliber of my AP classes has always far exceeded that of
the entry level college courses taught in the CE system. To say that AP teachers in high school
are not qualified to teach a college curriculum is ridiculous. I have had some college professors
who should not be teaching high school. However, in a few cases I chose to take CE over
AP classes because I could get more college credit. If the CE program is to continue, the classes
must become more rigorous. Less then stellar students are allowed into the CE classes and pass
because the work load is light and in many instances their grade depends only on a mid-term, a
final, and one or two assignments. Regardless of whether or not the same class is taught on
campus by the same professor, the difficulty is not up to par. CE is taking a high school education out of high school. Students who truly care about their education will apply themselves in any setting, a college setting isn't always best.

Money ? | 8:42 p.m. May 12, 2008

To the person who claimed that colleges are just after the money, in my experience, the opposite has been true. High schools put anyone than can in a CE capacity so THEY can get the extra money. What goes around comes around.

Choices | 9:46 p.m. May 12, 2008

Peter Drucker said: ï¿½In a few hundred years, when the history of our time is written from a long-term perspective, it is likely that the most important event those historians will see is not technology, not the Internet, not e-commerce. It is an unprecedented change in the human condition. For the first time ï¿½ literally ï¿½ substantial and rapidly growing numbers of people have choices. For the first time, they will have to manage themselves.ï¿½

MIC | 10:58 a.m. May 13, 2008

I teach Honors Pre-Calculus (a high school class), Concurrent Enrollment Math 1010, 1050, and 1060, and AP Calculus, Honors Physics and AP Physics. I have taught Math for USU, BYU, SUU, and SLCC as an adjunct. The concern that I see in concurrent is one of quality control. I have several students that drop my concurrent enrollment (during high school hours, SLCC) and take evening concurrent enrollment from USU because it is so much easier. I also have several students that drop the USU evening class and take my SLCC class because they actually want an education not just a credit. The first class I taught for USU, I tried to teach at least at the level of the same class for SLCC, BYU and SUU, unfortunetly the quality control was absent and the students entering my math 1050 couldn't even pass my math 1010 for the other schools. SLCC controls the quality of their CE program, some others don't. Our high school honors program will not accept USU concurrent enrollment toward an Honors Diploma because the level being taught (at least here locally) is below an 8th grade level for the sciences.

Another High School Student | 5:20 p.m. May 21, 2008

I am currently working on my Assiciates and have taken both AP and CC and classes on campus through early enrollment and distant (online) education. The rigor depends on the professor or teacher and the amount you learn depends on YOU. No one else is responsible for what you learn. There are kids in my college campus classes who learn nothing because they choose to learn nothing. Also with the rise in tuition costs CE allows us low-income studetns a good opportunity to still pursue higher education. Most of the earlier comments have good points but others are commenting without any clue of what it is realy like.

CE Instruction | 9:46 a.m. April 20, 2009

I teach 3 CE classes at a small rural high school in Utah and believe me, these classes give students a look at how classes in college are taught. Moreover, it is invaluable to our students in preparing them for college classes. When I went to high school, I did not have any understanding about the expectations or work necessary in college. It took me a semester or two to figure it out. After a PhD and 13 years of teaching, I see the benefit to CE classes. All my children have taken advantage of CE classes and as a result have done much better in college than their parents. Shame on our legislators for giving in to those who only care about the almighty dollar.

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