Deseret News | Texas says all YFZ kids at risk

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Texas says all YFZ kids at risk

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Anonymous | 12:04 p.m. May 10, 2008

If this action by the Texas court is allowed to stand, then the U.S. Constitution is dead, the Bill of Rights is null and void, and freedom of religion is thrown out the window. Whatever you may think about the YFZ group, every U.S. citizen should be trembling in fear--especially if they have beliefs that the state finds objectionable. Beliefs? "potential abuse?" they need to go after the homosexual community--now there is real, scary, abusive, sexual practices.

To: Grooming the Young | 12:09 p.m. May 10, 2008

The difference is that kids in general society are still at choice. My daughter's friends here in Camarillo California are model 12 year olds. Are they perfect? ... of course not but even with the availablity of what you mention, they are being well guided both in making good decision and learning how to THINK for THEMSELVES.

How dare you compare that to children being GROOMED in an enclosed compound with guard towers and the threat of eternal damnation if they don't "keep sweet" for those older men that Uncles Warren deems worthy.

Ing | 12:12 p.m. May 10, 2008

Quote:
Neither the court nor the child welfare agency should "be forced to play guessing games when the safety and well-being of these children are at stake," the documents state.

From what I've seen, this whole thing is a guessing game.

Some people are going to be upset at me for saying this, but I'll say it anyway: The existence of a law against marrying under a certain age does not mean that it is an absolute moral wrong.

Is the FLDS marriage system necessarily the vile abuse the state is claiming? I don't think so. These are not the people you see on the news who beat and torture their children. There's abuse, and then there's abuse.

Their marriage system is unethical and creepy, and illegal, for sure. But I'm also sure that the vast majority of these people, brainwashed though they may have been, truly wanted to do what was best for their children and families.

Remove them from the cult influence, but not from each other. Give them a chance to reintegrate with normal society. Separating 400-plus children from their families is more vile than anything these people may have done.

Comments continue below

Court Records | 12:36 p.m. May 10, 2008

All Baloney
This is the opinion of others
Not tesimoney
The kids are all at risk of the state and child welfare
The State has committed a Federal law
Crossing State lines with Kidnapped children

From New England | 12:39 p.m. May 10, 2008

Whatever you think of Warren Jeffs, he's out of the picture now. I have a problem with him banning the color red and other of his philosophies, but I have a much bigger problem with the misguided statements and actions of the CPS. The Salem witch trials come to mind. Over zealous government officials are frightened of a religion with a peaceful intent, even though they may be breaking Texas laws. So punish the law breakers, and let everyone else go. People mention that Muslim men are allowed 4 wives, and some Catholic priests abuse young boys. Christian Scientists ban blood transfusions to children needing them. I'll bet that someone could dig up dirt on a Baptist or two if they looked. I'm sure that one can find hurtful acts committed by people everywhere, whether connected to religion or not. The biggest error made by the CPS is that they are clueless about the overall beliefs of the FLDS. This isn't an unstable doomsday cult. They've been around for over 100 years. I'll bet that they could find a legitimate way to conform in legal ways to Texas law without losing the good aspects of their culture.

Anonymous | 1:03 p.m. May 10, 2008

From New England:
But it is a Doomsday cult. Warren has several times predicted the end of the world and when it did not happen, he told his followers they where not yet obedient enough to their religion. Only the most obedient followers of his Doctrine would go to Heaven when all else perishes.

Samual | 1:15 p.m. May 10, 2008

If the American justice system can't or won't protect people from this blantant assault across the boards of so many rights;
then I fear we've seen the first volley in the next revolution.
This cannot be allowed to stand or our rights are in serious peril. The government that allows this is simply setting precedent. The battle at bunker hill was fought over far less outrageous actions.
Civil Law has become a frankenstien of abusive power. Law which has such dire consequences yet none of the protection of criminal laws must be reigned in by all means necessary.
If the government won't stop this assault then the people must.

Aninonymous | 1:35 p.m. May 10, 2008

What about sperm donors? Aren't they anonymous polygamists......one father and many mothers?

What is the difference?

However, underage marriage is NOT good, not in today's customs. So, we should go after ALL men that target underage girls.

Raid all High Schools next | 1:48 p.m. May 10, 2008

Certainly, by this line of logic that Texas is taking, it becomes apparent that they will be raiding all the high schools next. Likely not one in Texas that doesn't have underage girls that are pregnant or had abortions.

An examples (not allowed to post the url):

I teach in the United States (Texas) and have had a similar concern with our school district. . .I have simply suggested teaching something. . .other than abstinence...So, while we look the other way, many of our students are getting pregnant.
#posted by Blogger astephens

Since the high school environment is so sexually charged, all girls are at risk. These 15-16 year olds are highly vulnerable to such an atmosphere and should not be allowed to remain in that environment.

To not raid the high schools would be hypocritical of Texas authorities. The age of the John should not be important, whether under or over 18. Gender segregation in high school will dramatically reduce this abuse on these children.

This is my sarcasm because I'm of the opinion that Texas has overstepped the proper role of government in this case. "Heil Perry!" Not!!

Raid all High Schools next | 2:10 p.m. May 10, 2008

Sarcasm about the unconstitutional use of force, circumventing individual rights, that is. Not supporting the exploitation of minors.

The judge requested that the attorneys to give the hearing in mass a chance. Now they reply that none of the attorneys protested it (which I doubt). Never give a scorpion a ride across the pond, even with promises to not sting! Always stand up for your "God given" rights as the Declaration of Independence proclaims.

Oregonian | 2:14 p.m. May 10, 2008

What great posts today!

to: MadNuker: Gov. Perry is probably in "an undisclosed location" because he signed off on this debacle.

Raid all High Schools next | 2:23 p.m. May 10, 2008

Sarcasm over Texas' unconstitutional abuse of power. Not about underage exploitation of minors (wrong by any worthy standard).

Never give a ride on your back to a scorpion across a pond, even with promises to not sting! The judge requested the attorneys to give the hearing in mass a chance. Now they cry that the attorneys didn't object (which I doubt, because not all objections were heard). Texas has usurped individual rights to due process because of the enormity of the improper seizure. To deny due process because of court time and budgetary concerns is a travesty of justice.

Anonymous | 2:32 p.m. May 10, 2008

to responder of "Grooming the Young":
You said these kids are "well guided" who are involved in what Grooming the Young described. Really? A lot of them certainly don't look or act like they're receiving any parental guidance.

gretchen | 2:43 p.m. May 10, 2008

Many FLDS crimes against members who were lucky enough to get out and still function, or are dead. Many mystery deaths with this group. Those defending them MUST spend hours reading about people that fled the group, and interviews with some of the so-called lost boys who were ejected or left because it was such a repressive, awful way to live.Stats show sudden number drop-off at age 13 for males taken from ranch.But they fight hard to keep girls in sect since polygamy IS their religion. Girls wanting to do much besides procreate, clean,and do heavy physical work and labor- intensive hand work are very oppressed.Much of their"education" is about being submissive, and to desire motherhood early. Many girls in fundamentalist Mormon groups have been tricked into marrying someone they hated with promises that they would be allowed to finish high school and attend college, that never got to do either, as they were saddled with several babies by the time they would have been graduating high school or college.They want them to give birth almost yearly.It's not the only bad group, and yes, our society has a lot wrong with it. They still need to be prosecuted.

hankram | 2:45 p.m. May 10, 2008

Attorneys, like Rod Parker ought to shut up, and be reminded of his duties of the Rules of Professional Conduct. The lie of "Oh, the minor is '18'", isn't going to cut it. The men forced the women to lie about whose KIDS are they, and how old are they on the false belief they'll get their kids back. That move only moves the kids closer into foster care and into adoption.

When Warren Jeffs does not lead by the Holy Ghost, but tells the older men that the girls are for taking, and that he has a foot fetish (makes women wash their husbands' feet with their own hair), it is good that Texas reins in these descendants of these apostates.

Texas is right | 2:49 p.m. May 10, 2008

When a "religion" is about abusing children, it stops being a "religion". Plain and simple. I applaud Texas for helping their children escape an abusive and evil environment.

littlelies | 3:03 p.m. May 10, 2008

People have stories about FLDS abuse - without proof or any convictions other than Jeffs - who performed a marriage ceremony between a 14 and 19 year old, by the way.
While I don't believe in 14 year olds getting married, the age differnce is only 5 years, thats well within our suddenly puritanical societies accepted norms.
But these people suggesting murder and child abuse - please! The state would convict in a heartbeat.
Innuendo and slander is all that is, to make a case against the FLDS to make some shallow people feel better about themselves.
Innuendo and slander - not truth.
In the very words, the now despised Angie Voss stated - UNDER OATH in court: "Angie Voss conceded there have been no allegations of abuse against babies, prepubescent girls or any boys."
So the people on this page are just slanderers, wonder if th CPS will be knocking on Your doors to take your kids away? or maybe your whole neighborhood!

jamesroy | 3:12 p.m. May 10, 2008

...i'd make that:
suddenly - and selectively - puritanical.
the state demands we teach homosexuality to 8 and 9 year olds in school, religion is out, christianity is hate.
I smell a rat.

Bruce | 3:59 p.m. May 10, 2008

"The community has one common belief system that young girls are called on to be wives and no age is too young to be married," wrote Texas Department of Family and Protective Services attorneys.

Took my 3-yr-old granddaughter to WalMart today and was looking through the toys in the girls section. Conclusion:
Our secular society has one common belief system that young girls are called on to dress like prostitutes (even their toys) and no age is too young to promote themselves as objects of desire.

Society is hereby ordered to surrender all your children to Witch Walther for reprogramming.

wrz | 4:03 p.m. May 10, 2008

>>At this point, it would behoove the FLDS to prepare an honest, complete list.<<

CPS has an honest, list. It includes all the children. Put them in a bus (Baptist owned) and take them back to their homes. I'm sure the parents can sort it out.

JFK | 4:38 p.m. May 10, 2008

One way to change the attitued of the CPS is tell them they have joined their religion: Oil,Oil and Oil.
Again I say the Feds are going to get involved and they will arrest the FLDS men for breaking the law. It will be none violent raid and soon.
Is America a place you can practise your religion freely? The answer is no and that has been proven.
Do you note in this news item about the CPS where they say they don't have the resources to follow the law. (so we do anything we want and is convienent?)
Lets put the CPS in Jail where they belong. They can practice their goose steps there.

Morrison | 4:53 p.m. May 10, 2008

Everything would be find and dandy if the FLDS didn't lie so darn much, and if the FLDS men didn't hideout like scared rats. Besides what make this whole situation even worse is using God to have sex with little girls, and just doesn't go over well with too many people.

Dru | 5:01 p.m. May 10, 2008

Sounds just like what the communist did in East Germany, They are telling everyone in Texas how to believe and what religious thoughts and feelings they should have. The Citizens of Texas need to know that if thier child has a child out of wedlock they could have thier other children taken from them secondary to the potenial risk for child abuse.

David | 5:19 p.m. May 10, 2008

I live in Atlanta and many women do not even KNOW the father's name. SO, why should the women be required the state a father's name...one parent is sufficient. The rest is to satisfy the needs of gossips.
Also, they do NOT act as one entity. Based on Carolyn Jessop the author of the book Escape, she stated that when Warren Jeffs had the REvelation that Red was not to be worn but reserved for Jesus at His return the response was different individually. One women went so far as to pull out a red rose bush to plant a pink rose, while other women continued to wear red dresses. SO much for One Entity.
Another oddity is that in Lawrence v Texas (a gay rights issue) a fraudulent phone call also started that event. How terribly coincidental....oh wait, I don't believe in two coincidences quite like that. Just search the arrest and Lawrence v. Texas for yourself.

Southern Ways | 5:23 p.m. May 10, 2008

Lets us all remember the name of Judge Barbara Walther. What is her religion?
Has she started to write her book yet. It would probably take about 500 pages to try and justify her action.
Anyone remember the name of the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services Director? Is that the same as CPS? Is that another name for the Baptist Protection Convention? Is that the same group whos leader was given services by the prostitutes or the other one who flushed money out of his people for the Heavenly Kingdom project that he served time for. Yes his name was Baker.

Awful place | 5:28 p.m. May 10, 2008

If it was all so awful as many ex-members would have us believe why did Carolyn Jessop's own daughter Betty return 2 days after she turned 18? She was 13 when her mother, Carolyn made the choice to leave. That is 5 years in the real world and plenty of time to have recovered. Clearly it was choice. WHy did Fawn Holms, who made the talk show circuit after "escaping" also return to the FLDS if it was so dreadful? She too had time to decide for herself. Julie Whyler also left and returned with her husband. He was 16 and she 17 when they married. They are over 10 years older, back in and still monogamous. Much of the group horror, over individual horror, is media produced. If our own neighborhoods were raided in the same fashion, we would find drug addicts, dealers, child abuse, spousal abuse, rape, and other crimes as well. We only target them because their odd lifestyle offends our own biases. They do something that certainly would not happen in my neighborhood, the FLDS girls marry before getting pregnant.

To Morrison | 5:36 p.m. May 10, 2008

Ask yourself if there was a reason for lying? First, in 1953, Short Creek was raided with men going to jail and other such horrors. The response of that community was to further isoolate themselves from the evil world that would separate parents from their children. Clothes which were time appropriate reverted to odd pioneer type clothing.
Jump to today and you have a community that was taught that the government was evil. The government in turn has shown that to be fact based. If a youthful looking 28 year old woman claimed to be 17, she was permitted to remain with her child. Now ask yourself, would you tell the truth and be separated from your children, or would you lie to remain with them? I would lie through my teeth.
As far as paternity, watch the Maury show and see for yourselves that many women do not know the father of their children. Why should the FLDS be held to a higher standard and tell the name of the father? I see no reason for that unless a man is making claim on a child as his own. Welfare is not an issue as per the state.

ME | 5:39 p.m. May 10, 2008

Motherhood- the mission of Angels on Earth. It is a God-given gift, a sacred entustment. Who else will fill that special place in a child's heart? God give these mothers courage, and strength to endure the senseless ripping apart of good families.

Paul | 6:00 p.m. May 10, 2008

Well, I say take the FLDS men and leave the FLDS woman with their Children. The FLDS men are the true perpetrators here. These men use God to do their evil practices with unlawful marriages to little girls.

STILL wondering | 6:19 p.m. May 10, 2008

I still don't understand why we can't object to abusive practices by the FLDS and require proper legal action to be taken against proven lawbreakers, and at the same time, be extremely disturbed at the illegality of the actions of Texas CPS.

These are two separate issues and BOTH are serious.

CPS has certainly come out in the open that it is a religious belief system that they are really objecting to.

Are the FLDS afraid that identifying parental relationships would be self-incrimination?

As to group "families", what about the kibbutz (spelling) in Israel--women doing hard physical labor, serving in military combat, children raised communally--I wouldn't like it for my family, but it worked in Israel.

I lived a good many years among the Amish in PA, people whose lifestyle isn't mainstream. Schooling from 8 until 16, lots of hard labor by the women--the teenage girls wash their brother's courting buggies every Saturday, did you know? Oh, my, that's sexist!

We need to be extremely careful about demanding that everybody else believe like we do. No matter how much we consider our own beliefs to be true and correct, we have no right to impose them on others.

standupforYOURrights | 6:21 p.m. May 10, 2008

This is not about any abuse allegations but it is our government and state authorities trying to cover their tail because they messed up. They went to far and they will do this to anyone who doesn't go along with their agendas. They have created a nightmare for these children and parents. Someone needs to step up to the plate and stop this madness and let these people get back to their lives. They could not prove they have done anything wrong that I have seen. I am ashamed of Texas, DOWN WITH THE TYRANTS-is right!

zoar | 6:27 p.m. May 10, 2008

ï¿½It is ridiculous to compare teenage girls getting pregnant when they have relationships with teenage boys to teenage girls being force to marry men old enough to be their grandfathers.ï¿½

BDM so its an age difference? If the girl is seduced by her boyfriend and she in too young to give consent, there is no difference than if the girl was forced by a dirty old man. The deed in both cases is wrong and the young man and the old man should get the same punishment. There should be no double standards. Of course hypocrites can do anything they want it in our enlightened society. It is a comfort that there is one judge that can see the intents of the heart and will judge accordingly.

Ruthie's Girl | 6:27 p.m. May 10, 2008

Religious persecution?

Since when is pedophilia a religion?

Unhappy Farmer | 6:42 p.m. May 10, 2008

Texas officials are a bunch of scalawags and if my ancestors were still here they'd scalp the whole bunch. These people have a right to their children and their homes, let them live the way they want.

Dave | 6:50 p.m. May 10, 2008

I believe as other posters, it is terribly wrong to Use God and make up a religion for forcing young girls to have sex with old perverts. It is wrong, wrong, wrong! And nothing religious about it!!!

J-man | 6:53 p.m. May 10, 2008

Where is Merril Jessop the acting FLDS prophet? Why isn't he in the midst of this and making any public statements?????? Why is he hiding behind the women of the FLDS?

Think | 7:04 p.m. May 10, 2008

"Patriotism does not consist in aiding the government in every base and stupid act it may perform but rather in paralyzing its power when it violates vested rights, affronts insulted justice and assumes undelegated authority" -Orson F. Whitney As Patrick Henry says, "Give Me Liberty, or give me Death" Texas has violated the constitutional rights of an entire religion. All honorable Americans should stand up and scream the words of Patrick Henry! Texas has too much power for their own good- let's do something about it!

to Dave | 7:07 p.m. May 10, 2008

Dave | 6:50 p.m. May 10, 2008

I totally agree it is wrong to abuse anyone for any reason!! now lets talk about the FLDS.
From what your all saying any one ACUSED of such things should die. Key word being ACUSED

Bruce | 7:20 p.m. May 10, 2008

"I believe as other posters, it is terribly wrong to Use God and make up a religion for forcing young girls to have sex with old perverts. It is wrong, wrong, wrong! And nothing religious about it!!! "

Well, let's see...the virgin Mary was 14..and how old was Jesus' dad?
That was pretty darn religious IMHO.

tigerlily | 7:35 p.m. May 10, 2008

to luckynotme: the flds are a recongized and organized religion in the united states and therefore protected under the constitution

doug | 7:54 p.m. May 10, 2008

Shadow: keep up the good work. Your logic is impeccable. Or however that is spelled.

Many people just can't fathom how you can break the law and God's law by forcing girls to be sexual partners for old men. I can't explain why they don't get it. Civil liberties and religious liberties do not mean licenciousness. They must use a different Bible or something.

The mothers are not guiltless, either. It is a cult and it has that ugly smell of men taking advantage of women by using the fear of God, fear of whatever, and wrapped up in the revelations from God. It has the smell of child abuse and rape.

FLDS. cult. practices? abominations.

TheMadNuker | 7:57 p.m. May 10, 2008

Re:Oregonian; If Gov. Perry isn't hiding, he probably is wishing he was.No matter ones feelings, Texas has stepped into one big cowpie. Gov. Perry can kiss his job goodbye, and the arrogant CPS Thugs
are not going to walk clean of this one. After the
revelation that the Texas CPS Thugs,are persecuting
an entire religious faith,how can we ignore the full
ramifications of this action. A gauntlet has been
thrown down before the "American People". And the issue is far larger than the FLDS alone. Just for starters, maybe someone could start a website titled
"The Face Of Fascisim". They could place the lovely
pictures and names of the Texas officials that did
this evil act upon the "American People". Also buy
more spam and ammo! :-) :-)

Interesting | 8:04 p.m. May 10, 2008

to note the ramped up efforts of the FLDS propaganda machine over time. Just goes to show how outta touch they are thinking they can repeat Short Creek. Times are achangin' .....

Appalled | 8:09 p.m. May 10, 2008

At the Yearning For Zion Ranch, children are regarded as a reward and blessing and nary a child is ever considered to deserve that murderous act of being aborted in the womb; yet in CPS-world, one-third of all mothers have aborted their children, whereupon a staggering 3,500 babies are killed every single day. When in the wombs of their Yearning For Zion mothers, these now-abducted children were assured of having a safe and secure entrance into this world. So how is it then that CPS thinks they can provide like security when they now want to abort them from their mother's care? They cannot. Heaven help us.

Bob | 8:21 p.m. May 10, 2008

Just what is the penalty for thought crimes now in Texas?

Wyogirl | 8:21 p.m. May 10, 2008

"the original petition to the Court of Appeals was filed on behalf of 38 women by Texas RioGrande Legal Aid attorneys."

They need legal Aid attorneys? This group gets millions of dollars in government contracts - can't they get their "wives" some decent attorneys? The MEN have one handling THEIR P.R. I guess the women don't really count do they - they are not worth a marriage certificate and certainly not a lawyer to protect the children they produced with the help of these men. What a bunch of lying cowards. But - if that is their religion, by all means...treat people however you want.

I'm LDS and I am not afraid AT ALL to teach my children to "follow the prophet" because the things he instructs them to do are voluntary, legal, and positive for their development. The LDS prophet teaches the values of education, self-respect, obedience to parents, hard work etc. He doesn't keep them all on a "ranch," use them as for cheap labor, tear apart their families and rape or eliminate them when they hit puberty.

Get real people - The FLDS are in trouble of their OWN making.

Neil | 8:37 p.m. May 10, 2008

Apparently not many readers have been listening to the former FLDS women who have left this dangerous cult. If you have you would support the effort's of Texas officials to remove children from an abusive environment. This is not about religion, it is about child abuse. I can't imagine how anybody can justify thirteen year old girls marrying fifty year old men. This cult is nothing more than a haven for pedophiles. God bless Texas. Justifying what they do in the name of religious freedom is asinine.

Johnjay | 9:04 p.m. May 10, 2008

Neil - There you go, no proof just accusations!
I've heard so many idle comments on the '50 year old men with 13 year old girls'. Some people have the brains of parrots - they can only repeat what they want-to hear and believe.
Neil - fact it that your talking hateful nonsense, innuendo, slander. Until; if and when there is some proof of your false accusation, then its just like the claims of jewish blood libel, chinese- baby eaters, and all those hateful fictional lies.
By wanting to believe the worst, you say more about yourself than those you attack.

Uhhhhh | 9:08 p.m. May 10, 2008

I live in a community where all the kids feel 'kinship' to one another. In my community, we mostly have the same belief sistem, and the mothers all support one another, and back each other up. I'm teaching my daughters to become wifes and mothers (Ok, I'd like them to be at least 18, but that's my personal ideal). So, when is TExas CPS showing up to take the kids in my neighborhood? They pretty much described any LDS neighborhood in Utah.

Yankeeboy | 9:25 p.m. May 10, 2008

Wyogirl;
Being from connecticut, i had very little exposure to mormons. I'd never met one until i was in my mid-30's. Now, a couple of times a year, some clean shaven mormons will come by to talk about their beliefs.
I used to respect them a great deal.
But with people like yourself, so quickly condemning those with such similar beliefs, I see smallness and viciousness that is frankly repulsive. It's sad that the LDS aren't trying to help these people, rather than kick and spit on them in this disaster; how low, how sad.
In my own religion we have a parable of a good samaritan... I think next time your missionaries come, I wont answer the door.

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