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Published: Tuesday, Jan. 31 2012 5:00 a.m. MST

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RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

"It simply teaches that sexual relations should only be shared between a man and woman who are married to each other. This law of chastity applies to homosexual and heterosexual people alike. Single members of the church are expected to abstain from sex regardless of their sexual orientation. "

---

The thing is, the Church's teaching apply TO MEMBERS. Nobody else, anywhere, is obliged to live by the "Church's" teachings.

If people want to be members of an organization, then by all means, they should abide by the rules of that organization. That said, those who are members of that organization should STOP INTERFERING in the lives of those who are not members.

If homosexuals within the church want to be in the church, live by it's rules.

Homosexuals outside the church should be able to live their lives as best suits them without interference from members of the "church". This includes marriage. We shouldn't have to live by any church's policy, even the one-man/one-woman marriage policy, as that policy applies to those who subscribe to that god and that god's rules.

It's kind of ironic actually, that you teach one must be married to have sex, then go way out of your way to make sure that we can't marry.

pdxuser
Salt Lake City, UT

How great for the church that this man fits all of the church's stereotypes: He was gay, so he used drugs, had AIDS and was miserable. But then he found the church, so he was freed from the gayness that made his life so awful. Five year olds have produced stories with more surprising plot twists.

Love to all,
A happy, healthy gay man.

John20000
Cedar Hills, UT

@Ranchhand: Funny comment. Marriage predates recorded history. Laws since the 1200s have used the term "marriage" to mean the union of a man and a woman. Laws in Utah are no different. When people voted on laws containing the term "marriage", they did so with the understanding that the term meant a union of a man and a woman.

Changing the definition of the term "marriage" would change 1,000s of laws in one big swoop. It would undermine the legislative process. It would promote even more skepticism in the democratic way of governing, especially if more terms were re-defined after the laws containing those terms had already passed. There would be no point in passing laws that could be radically changed later by re-defining terms.

What if you wanted to ride your horse on the freeway and petitioned to have the term "automobile" re-defined to include horses. Every law that used the term "automobile" would be changed. I guess it wouldn't be all bad, at least horses would now have to meet emissions standards. Maybe stables wouldn't smell so bad.

windsor
City, Ut

Thanks for this article--so many great points.

I know one man (heterosexual, who, because of his wife's increasing severe mental illness) has been celibate for several years.

He feels a keen brotherhood with the gays and lesbians in the LDS Church, who like him--and like his never married heterosexual sibling--all have hard sexual challenges in their lives, and yet choose to remain close to God and remain active and temple worthy.

Pagan
Salt Lake City, UT

'I know one man (heterosexual, who, because of his wife's increasing severe mental illness) has been celibate for several years.' - windsor | 8:40 a.m. Jan. 31, 2012

But for LGBT in the LDS church it s not 'just' several years.

It is not even 'just' a few decades.

It is, celibacy, for LIFE.

How do YOU do, being celibate, for LIFE?

Here are a few examples:

**'Gay man says 'reversal' therapy did not change him' - By Lisa Leff - Associated Press - Published by DSNews - 01/20/10

'SAN FRANCISCO A gay man testified Wednesday in a federal same-sex marriage trial that the "reversal therapy" he underwent as a teenager to change his sexual orientation drove him to the brink of suicide.' - article

**'Psychologists nix gay-to-straight therapy' - AP - 08/05/09

'The American Psychological Association declared (sic) that no solid evidence exists that such change is likely, says the report, and some research suggests that efforts to produce change could be harmful, inducing...

depression and suicidal tendencies.' - article

Pagan
Salt Lake City, UT

Now, I am going to focus on the two sides of the claim that you can 'overcome' orientation.

1) it is only ever applied, to homosexuals.

As, heterosexuals, can have sex on the confines of marriage.

Can homosexuals marry in America? Only in x6 states.

2) Let's look at the SUPPORTERS of the idea that you can 'overcome' orientation:

NOM. The National Organization for Marriage.

**'National Organization for Marriage (NOM) uses Photoshop to create Doctored Photos showing support for Repealing New Hamshire Gay marriage Huffington Post 10/26/11

'...NOM has taken (at least) two photos of rallies held for now-President Obama and repurposed them to make it look like thousands of people are attending their anti-marriage events.' - article

Exodus International.

Michael Bussee (male), one of the founders of Exodus and Gary Cooper (another male), a leader within the ministry of Exodus, left the group to be with each other in 1979.

NARTH.

'A Heaven-Sent Rent Boy' - By FRANK RICH NY Times - 05/15/10

'...61-year-old (George) Rekers was caught by Miami New Times last month in the company of a 20-year-old male escort at Miami International Airport.' - article

Pagan
Salt Lake City, UT

Now, I have given evidence of the groups in SUPPORT of the idea that you can 'overcome' orientation'.

Now, for the ones that do NOT.

The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from it's list of mental disorders, in 1973.

I was born, x5 years later.

I have already given the American Psychological Association. (Differnet from the American PSYCHIATRIC association) 15k Psychologist's.

Also:

"In most ways, the accumulated research shows, children of same-sex parents are not markedly different from those of heterosexual parents."

- 'Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents' - POLICY STATEMENT - PEDIATRICS Vol. 109 No. 2 February 2002, pp. 339-340 - Pulished: 02/01/10

- AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS (AAP)

**'AMA meeting: "Don't ask, don't tell" said to hurt patient care; repeal urged' - By Kevin B. O'Reilly, amednews staff. Posted Nov. 23, 2009.

'The House of Delegates also said a lack of marriage rights contributes to health care disparities that affect gay families.' - article

- American Medical Association. AMA

814,000 members.

So, do we rely on THOUSANDS of education profesionals...

or a group that uses...

photoshop?

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@John20000;
Ancient "marriage" also included same-sex unions in many countries/regions, so your argument about the ancient marriage is not correct; not to mention that you failed to include one-man/many-women, which is also one form of ancient marriage.

Adding to the meaning of a word increases it's value. Nothing about any existing laws would need to be changed with inclusion of same-sex couples. Civil Union on the other hand would require massive legal changes all over the place.

@windsor;

"...and yet choose to remain close to God ...."

---Whatever makes you think that being in a same-sex relationship precludes being "close to god"? Your version of god differs tremendously from my version.

After over 30 years of trying to live the LDS lifestyle (being celibate/virgin/alone/etc.), praying every day to change into a heterosexual, and finally being desperate to the point of suicide, I prayed that I could accept myself as I currently am and live life to the best of my ability as a gay man. At that moment, at that very moment, every iota of guilt, shame and despair that I had felt left and I felt the greatest peace of my life. Ever. In the 20+ years since, that hasn't changed.

I really don't know if there is a god or not, and I honestly don't care. I'll live my life as an honest, decent human being and let any potential god be the judge. Being "temple worthy" is about more than following arbitrary rules. It's about how you live, how good a person you are and how you treat others.

Peculiar Light
,

Thank you FAIR! As a man with same-sex attraction, it is refreshing to hear someone tell OUR side of the story. There is a lot more diversity in the LGBT community than people realize. I am sorry if the fact that someone has found peace and happiness in the church offends some people. Perhaps that will give you a sense of our frustration when all we hear is how being gay is contrary to the Church. We are finding a place in the Church we love, and I wish more people would be happy for us. It is ironic that the biggest opposition we get is from the gay community.

For those who think the podcast was just about a gay man who had a horrible time in the gay lifestyle and learned to overcome it, I suggest you go listen to the podcasts yourself. You will see a variety of experiences, including those who had a hard time in the church.

Thanks once again to FAIR for supporting the gay LDS community!

zoar63
Mesa, AZ

@RanchHand

"Ancient "marriage" also included same-sex unions in many countries/regions, so your argument about the ancient marriage is not correct"

Not in the European countries which is where Western civilization got itâs laws from. I can think of no European society where the state recognized same sex marriages after the fall of the Roman Empire and prior to the 21st century, but if you have any evidence to the contrary please provide it. It would be false to say there were no homosexuals, but same sex marriages, not likely especially due to the dominant religion that ruled the area. The Western church followed the Old Testament teaching about homosexuality to the letter and executed the prescribed penalties.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@zoar63;

You did mention Rome, which is a "Western Civilization".

Does it matter where/which country allowed SSM? The FACT is that it HAPPENED in ancient times, so the argument that it didn't is false. Marriage has defined SSM in the past, present and will in the future.

The fact that some (especially Judeo-Christian) societies murdered gay people doesn't make it right - even if that giant book of fiction you call "god's word"/The Bible tells them to. Murder is murder, even when sanctioned by the dominant religion of the time; not to mention God telling people to murder glbt people violates his other commandment - thou shalt not kill. But then he also ordered the murder of adulterer females (why not the males?) and sent out bears to kill children for teasing an old man.

So, why didn't the Western Societies follow those orders as well?

Moontan
Roanoke, VA

If I had a homosexual son, I'd want him to have the same rights, responsibilities, and privileges that his heterosexual father has. How then can I deny the same to another man's son? I cannot. Nor am I qualified to cast the first stone. We each will have to give an account of our life to God, and minding my business is a full-time job. I'm too busy worrying about my own behavior to care much about yours.

A heterosexual bishop makes inappropriate remarks to a female member, dismisses her husband's domestic abuse. A homosexual bishop abides by the rules, lovingly cares for the hungry and hurting of his ward. Which is the better?

As a devout heterosexual, I'd prefer the latter.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

"also acknowledges that some gays do change their orientation."

I would have to think that bisexuals can end up leaning one way or the other in orientation and lend that appearance that they made a gay/straight or vice/versa change.

Pagan
Salt Lake City, UT

'The Psychiatrist who led the push to delist homosexuality from the APA books; also acknowledges that some gays do change their orientation.
Why did you conveniently forget that fact?' - Counter Intelligence | 4:58 p.m. Jan. 31, 2012

2 points:

1) Of course homosexuals lead the charge to remove homosexuality from a list of 'mental disorders'.

How would YOU feel, if everyone called Mormonism a 'mental disorder?'

Or is it only acceptable to insult homosexuals?

2) The APA removed homosexuality from it's list of mental disorders in 1973.

Today, is 2012.

It has been 39 years, almost four DECADES since this ruling was passed.

And today, you STILL cling to 'liberal bias?'

In fact, what 'evidence' have you presented to support your case?

Nothing.

There is, a chance.

Exodus International. A study they conducted in 1978.

Out of 800 members who tried to overcome orientation.

...3 changed.

3.

That's a 'success' rate of...

0.4%.

The other 99.6% went through all that, for nothing.

No change.

Hard to present this as 'fact'...

when you have a LESS than 1% chance to change a person's orientation.

To continue to claim there is a 'chance' to change orientation...

is shady.

zoar63
Mesa, AZ

@RanchHand

"You did mention Rome, which is a "Western Civilization".

Those same sex unions continued until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. A law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) was issued in 342 AD by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans, which prohibited same-sex marriage in ancient Rome.

Peculiar Light
,

Many people have changed their sexual orientation. I don't think everyone can, but to say no one can ignores the reality that many people live with. I used to not have any attraction to women. Now I am attracted to my wife. It wasn't like I was bisexual and learned to focus my attractions to my wife. I changed.

I want to clarify the APA's stance. They have said there is no evidence whether or not THERAPY can change a person's sexual orientation. They did not say it was impossible or that other means can change it. I personally believe I was cleansed through Christ, not therapy.

Here is an excerpt from CNS:

"Clinton Anderson, director of the APA Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Concerns Office, told Cybercast News Service APA does not dispute that some people leave homosexuality. Their concern is how that change comes about.

"I don't think that anyone disagrees with the idea that people can change because we know that straight people become gays and lesbians" Anderson said, "so it seems totally reasonable that some gay and lesbian people would become straight."

"The issue is not whether sexual orientation changes," he continued. "We know that the issue is whether therapy changes sexual orientation, which is what many of these people claim."

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@zoar63;

You're still missing the point. (Also, note how it is the Christians who promoted bigotry even way back then).

Final comment.

Good day.

Moontan
Roanoke, VA

I'm not sure I'd reference ancient Rome as proscribing SSM when it adopted Christianity. One reason the Emperors gave for doing so was that homosexuality caused earthquakes and famines. I don't see us condemning San Francisco when the next on hits.

And notice ... it was prohibited at the beginning of the Apostasy.

Oops.

Moontan
Roanoke, VA

An(un)necessary clarification: Nobody believes ALL people in any location are "extreme." The reference to San Francisco was to a particular, large, group there, clearly defined by the context of the thread and the topic being discussed. Moreover, as I do not consider members of the homosexual community extreme, I'd not use the word. I believe those with good common sense will understand what I meant.

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