An(un)necessary clarification: Nobody believes ALL people in any location are
"extreme." The reference to San Francisco was to a particular, large,
group there, clearly defined by the context of the thread and the topic being
discussed. Moreover, as I do not consider members of the homosexual community
extreme, I'd not use the word. I believe those with good common sense will
understand what I meant.
I'm not sure I'd reference ancient Rome as proscribing SSM when it adopted
Christianity. One reason the Emperors gave for doing so was that homosexuality
caused earthquakes and famines. I don't see us condemning San Francisco when the
next on hits. And notice ... it was prohibited at the beginning of
the Apostasy. Oops.
@zoar63;You're still missing the point. (Also, note how it is the
Christians who promoted bigotry even way back then).Final
Many people have changed their sexual orientation. I don't think everyone can,
but to say no one can ignores the reality that many people live with. I used to
not have any attraction to women. Now I am attracted to my wife. It wasn't like
I was bisexual and learned to focus my attractions to my wife. I changed.I want to clarify the APA's stance. They have said there is no evidence
whether or not THERAPY can change a person's sexual orientation. They did not
say it was impossible or that other means can change it. I personally believe I
was cleansed through Christ, not therapy.Here is an excerpt from
CNS:"Clinton Anderson, director of the APA Lesbian, Gay and
Bisexual Concerns Office, told Cybercast News Service APA does not dispute that
some people leave homosexuality. Their concern is how that change comes
about."I don't think that anyone disagrees with the idea that
people can change because we know that straight people become gays and
lesbians" Anderson said, "so it seems totally reasonable that some gay
and lesbian people would become straight.""The issue is
not whether sexual orientation changes," he continued. "We know that
the issue is whether therapy changes sexual orientation, which is what many of
these people claim."
@RanchHand"You did mention Rome, which is a "Western
Civilization".Those same sex unions continued until
Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. A law in the
Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) was issued in 342 AD by the Christian emperors
Constantius II and Constans, which prohibited same-sex marriage in ancient Rome.
'The Psychiatrist who led the push to delist homosexuality from the APA books;
also acknowledges that some gays do change their orientation.Why did you
conveniently forget that fact?' - Counter Intelligence | 4:58 p.m. Jan. 31,
2012 2 points: 1) Of course homosexuals lead the charge
to remove homosexuality from a list of 'mental disorders'. How would
YOU feel, if everyone called Mormonism a 'mental disorder?' Or is it
only acceptable to insult homosexuals? 2) The APA removed
homosexuality from it's list of mental disorders in 1973. Today, is
2012. It has been 39 years, almost four DECADES since this ruling
was passed. And today, you STILL cling to 'liberal bias?' In fact, what 'evidence' have you presented to support your case?
Nothing. There is, a chance. Exodus International. A
study they conducted in 1978. Out of 800 members who tried to
overcome orientation. ...3 changed. 3.
That's a 'success' rate of... 0.4%. The other 99.6% went
through all that, for nothing. No change. Hard to
present this as 'fact'... when you have a LESS than 1% chance to
change a person's orientation. To continue to claim there is a
'chance' to change orientation... is shady.
"also acknowledges that some gays do change their orientation."I would have to think that bisexuals can end up leaning one way or the
other in orientation and lend that appearance that they made a gay/straight or
If I had a homosexual son, I'd want him to have the same rights,
responsibilities, and privileges that his heterosexual father has. How then can
I deny the same to another man's son? I cannot. Nor am I qualified to cast the
first stone. We each will have to give an account of our life to God, and
minding my business is a full-time job. I'm too busy worrying about my own
behavior to care much about yours. A heterosexual bishop makes
inappropriate remarks to a female member, dismisses her husband's domestic
abuse. A homosexual bishop abides by the rules, lovingly cares for the hungry
and hurting of his ward. Which is the better? As a devout
heterosexual, I'd prefer the latter.
@zoar63;You did mention Rome, which is a "Western
Civilization".Does it matter where/which country allowed SSM?
The FACT is that it HAPPENED in ancient times, so the argument that it didn't is
false. Marriage has defined SSM in the past, present and will in the future.The fact that some (especially Judeo-Christian) societies murdered gay
people doesn't make it right - even if that giant book of fiction you call
"god's word"/The Bible tells them to. Murder is murder, even when
sanctioned by the dominant religion of the time; not to mention God telling
people to murder glbt people violates his other commandment - thou shalt not
kill. But then he also ordered the murder of adulterer females (why not the
males?) and sent out bears to kill children for teasing an old man.So, why didn't the Western Societies follow those orders as well?
@RanchHand"Ancient "marriage" also included same-sex
unions in many countries/regions, so your argument about the ancient marriage is
not correct"Not in the European countries which is where
Western civilization got itâs laws from. I can think of no European
society where the state recognized same sex marriages after the fall of the
Roman Empire and prior to the 21st century, but if you have any evidence to the
contrary please provide it. It would be false to say there were no
homosexuals, but same sex marriages, not likely especially due to the dominant
religion that ruled the area. The Western church followed the Old Testament
teaching about homosexuality to the letter and executed the prescribed
Thank you FAIR! As a man with same-sex attraction, it is refreshing to hear
someone tell OUR side of the story. There is a lot more diversity in the LGBT
community than people realize. I am sorry if the fact that someone has found
peace and happiness in the church offends some people. Perhaps that will give
you a sense of our frustration when all we hear is how being gay is contrary to
the Church. We are finding a place in the Church we love, and I wish more
people would be happy for us. It is ironic that the biggest opposition we get
is from the gay community.For those who think the podcast was just
about a gay man who had a horrible time in the gay lifestyle and learned to
overcome it, I suggest you go listen to the podcasts yourself. You will see a
variety of experiences, including those who had a hard time in the church.Thanks once again to FAIR for supporting the gay LDS community!
@John20000;Ancient "marriage" also included same-sex unions in
many countries/regions, so your argument about the ancient marriage is not
correct; not to mention that you failed to include one-man/many-women, which is
also one form of ancient marriage.Adding to the meaning of a word
increases it's value. Nothing about any existing laws would need to be changed
with inclusion of same-sex couples. Civil Union on the other hand would require
massive legal changes all over the place.@windsor;"...and yet choose to remain close to God ...."---Whatever makes you think that being in a same-sex relationship precludes
being "close to god"? Your version of god differs tremendously from
my version.After over 30 years of trying to live the LDS lifestyle
(being celibate/virgin/alone/etc.), praying every day to change into a
heterosexual, and finally being desperate to the point of suicide, I prayed that
I could accept myself as I currently am and live life to the best of my ability
as a gay man. At that moment, at that very moment, every iota of guilt, shame
and despair that I had felt left and I felt the greatest peace of my life.
Ever. In the 20+ years since, that hasn't changed.I really don't
know if there is a god or not, and I honestly don't care. I'll live my life as
an honest, decent human being and let any potential god be the judge. Being
"temple worthy" is about more than following arbitrary rules. It's
about how you live, how good a person you are and how you treat others.
Now, I have given evidence of the groups in SUPPORT of the idea that you can
'overcome' orientation'. Now, for the ones that do NOT.
The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from it's list of
mental disorders, in 1973. I was born, x5 years later. I
have already given the American Psychological Association. (Differnet from the
American PSYCHIATRIC association) 15k Psychologist's. Also: "In most ways, the accumulated research shows, children of same-sex
parents are not markedly different from those of heterosexual parents." - 'Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents' - POLICY
STATEMENT - PEDIATRICS Vol. 109 No. 2 February 2002, pp. 339-340 - Pulished:
02/01/10 - AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS (AAP) **'AMA
meeting: "Don't ask, don't tell" said to hurt patient care; repeal
urged' - By Kevin B. O'Reilly, amednews staff. Posted Nov. 23, 2009.
'The House of Delegates also said a lack of marriage rights contributes to
health care disparities that affect gay families.' - article -
American Medical Association. AMA 814,000 members. So,
do we rely on THOUSANDS of education profesionals... or a group that
Now, I am going to focus on the two sides of the claim that you can 'overcome'
orientation. 1) it is only ever applied, to homosexuals.
As, heterosexuals, can have sex on the confines of marriage. Can
homosexuals marry in America? Only in x6 states. 2) Let's look at
the SUPPORTERS of the idea that you can 'overcome' orientation: NOM.
The National Organization for Marriage. **'National Organization for
Marriage (NOM) uses Photoshop to create Doctored Photos showing support for
Repealing New Hamshire Gay marriage Huffington Post 10/26/11
'...NOM has taken (at least) two photos of rallies held for now-President Obama
and repurposed them to make it look like thousands of people are attending their
anti-marriage events.' - article Exodus International.
Michael Bussee (male), one of the founders of Exodus and Gary Cooper (another
male), a leader within the ministry of Exodus, left the group to be with each
other in 1979. NARTH. 'A Heaven-Sent Rent Boy' - By
FRANK RICH NY Times - 05/15/10 '...61-year-old (George) Rekers was
caught by Miami New Times last month in the company of a 20-year-old male escort
at Miami International Airport.' - article
'I know one man (heterosexual, who, because of his wife's increasing severe
mental illness) has been celibate for several years.' - windsor | 8:40 a.m. Jan.
31, 2012 But for LGBT in the LDS church it s not 'just' several
years. It is not even 'just' a few decades. It is,
celibacy, for LIFE. How do YOU do, being celibate, for LIFE? Here are a few examples: **'Gay man says 'reversal' therapy
did not change him' - By Lisa Leff - Associated Press - Published by DSNews -
01/20/10 'SAN FRANCISCO A gay man testified Wednesday in a federal
same-sex marriage trial that the "reversal therapy" he underwent as a
teenager to change his sexual orientation drove him to the brink of suicide.' -
article **'Psychologists nix gay-to-straight therapy' - AP -
08/05/09 'The American Psychological Association declared (sic) that
no solid evidence exists that such change is likely, says the report, and some
research suggests that efforts to produce change could be harmful,
inducing... depression and suicidal tendencies.' - article
Thanks for this article--so many great points.I know one man
(heterosexual, who, because of his wife's increasing severe mental illness) has
been celibate for several years.He feels a keen brotherhood with the
gays and lesbians in the LDS Church, who like him--and like his never married
heterosexual sibling--all have hard sexual challenges in their lives, and yet
choose to remain close to God and remain active and temple worthy.
@Ranchhand: Funny comment. Marriage predates recorded history. Laws since the
1200s have used the term "marriage" to mean the union of a man and a
woman. Laws in Utah are no different. When people voted on laws containing the
term "marriage", they did so with the understanding that the term
meant a union of a man and a woman. Changing the definition of the
term "marriage" would change 1,000s of laws in one big swoop. It
would undermine the legislative process. It would promote even more skepticism
in the democratic way of governing, especially if more terms were re-defined
after the laws containing those terms had already passed. There would be no
point in passing laws that could be radically changed later by re-defining
terms.What if you wanted to ride your horse on the freeway and
petitioned to have the term "automobile" re-defined to include horses.
Every law that used the term "automobile" would be changed. I guess
it wouldn't be all bad, at least horses would now have to meet emissions
standards. Maybe stables wouldn't smell so bad.
How great for the church that this man fits all of the church's stereotypes: He
was gay, so he used drugs, had AIDS and was miserable. But then he found the
church, so he was freed from the gayness that made his life so awful. Five year
olds have produced stories with more surprising plot twists.Love to
all,A happy, healthy gay man.
"It simply teaches that sexual relations should only be shared between a
man and woman who are married to each other. This law of chastity applies to
homosexual and heterosexual people alike. Single members of the church are
expected to abstain from sex regardless of their sexual orientation. "---The thing is, the Church's teaching apply TO MEMBERS.
Nobody else, anywhere, is obliged to live by the "Church's"
teachings.If people want to be members of an organization, then by
all means, they should abide by the rules of that organization. That said,
those who are members of that organization should STOP INTERFERING in the lives
of those who are not members.If homosexuals within the church want
to be in the church, live by it's rules. Homosexuals outside the
church should be able to live their lives as best suits them without
interference from members of the "church". This includes marriage.
We shouldn't have to live by any church's policy, even the one-man/one-woman
marriage policy, as that policy applies to those who subscribe to that god and
that god's rules.It's kind of ironic actually, that you teach one
must be married to have sex, then go way out of your way to make sure that we