Re: SharronaThe term "garment" is mentioned in the Bible,
and there are a lot of Churches where the pastor or priest wear outward garments
to show their outward faith. LDS garments are not for public view, only as
personal reminders of the committments made in the Temple.Re: Other
postsAS for people being denied teaching positions because of
religious symbols worn, I too agree that is discriminatory. I've heard that
some teachers cannot wear a cross around the neck to show their Christianity.
re:Madden, wrzIt isn't just what "other" private equity
companies do or have done. Like, you said, sometimes there are successes,
sometimes failures. Bain made profits even though the some of the companies they
invested in went bankrupt. Sometimes the companies, while under Bain's
management, took on excess debt and then went bankrupt. One such company was
Ampad. Another was Dade Behring (although it eventually recovered after Bain
divested itself). In fact, 2 of my (former) neighbors lost their jobs in the
Dade deal. Romney and his supporters tout his business experience,
working at Bain, as an important qualification. It is therefore fair to examine
the whole record, not just the successes. Studies on private equity firms have
revealed a mixed record in terms of job creation. And private equity
managers/CEOs, Romney included, enjoy a preferential tax treatment not available
to others doing essentially the same work. These are all important
issues moving forward. Will Romney's Bain experience shape his economic and tax
policies? If so, how, and to what extent? These are issues which will be brought
up in the course of the campaign.
John Pack Lambert of Michigan:"Sadly in two states that still
prevents Sikhs from serving as public school teachers."Sikhs
(and any other religion) should not be allowed to teach if they wear their
religious clothing and such so that it can be viewed. It's all in the name of
separation of church and state, i.e., keeping religion our of public schools."As far as I know garment wearing Mormons have not been excluded
from teaching in the public schools on the 'no religious clothing'
rule."Perhaps the reason is is that the garment can't be viewed
since it's worn underneath ordinary clothing."I half wish
someone would try, just to expose how truly discriminatory such rules
are."Maybe someone from India who wears a red dot on their
forehead for (religious purposes?) should try.
@Truthseeker:"In the past decade, though, that calculus
changed."What's that to do with Romney? He left Bain nearly a
Some people do not think that this is a valid article, so do you want people to
do like the one person did, waving around a ladies garment top in mockery, or
like the musical, and their mockery? Putting the facts out there can help stop
a verbal mockery that is bound to happen. I liked the way he explained it and
hopefully people will respect that, I would not make a mockery about any
@Truthseeker - don't go changing words around now. Nobody was arguing whether
"Profit doesn't ALWAYS equal jobs" (emphasis added). I said as much in
my post. You are changing the argument and then tossing out a flippant example
of what some equity firms can do to screw up the system (run up debt and take
the cash, leaving others empty handed...often the Trump way of making a buck
too, right?). You act like somehow this is an indictment of Romney.I
can find plenty of examples of bad behavior by any type of business or industry,
but it makes for a pretty weak attack doesn't it? Didn't most Democrats get
tired of GOP attacks on Obama over the deceitfulness of a handful of community
organizers (ACORN)? Rather than look for a fair argument, you use the same
tactics as your political opposition, running a smear campaign based on
unfounded associations. You can do better.
___Great to see our Mormon scholar LValfre is on here to keep
everyone honest; according to LValfre's version of honesty.Interesting that you counsel someone to not look the other way on things, be
objective and RATIONAL. Who says 'Rational' hasn't done what you recommend?
Every think that you are the one who is looking the other way, not being
rational or objective?Interesting how it's always the other guy's
fault, right? Well, I know the truth. I know the LDS church is the Lord's
church. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know that continuing
revelation is on the earth through the Lord's prophet, Thomas Monson. I know
Joseph Smith restored the gospel on the earth.Now, go be humble,
submissive, open heart, read the Book of Mormon, ponder the teachings, pray with
sincerity and you too will know the truth of these things. Go and return and
Re:JohnPackLambertIt would be helpful if you cited your sources.More often than not they appear out of left field.Like their
incarceration rates and reason being they refuse to attend "far-off,
new-fangled schools."This is patently false.The Amish
have their own schools. Amish children only have to attend school until 8th
grade, which was affirmed by a Supreme Court case in Wisconsin v Yoder, 1972
which basically found that Amish parents did not have to obey a Wisconsin law
because it interfered with their religion.You need new sources.
Re:John Pack Lambert of Michigan This is a very well reasoned and thoughtful
approach to the issue. These are sacred things that should not be treated
lightly. On the other hand, the existence of these things is not secret.(Either 3:18)the Lord not work in secret combinations. JS advised
against secret societies.Jesus answered him, I spoke openly to the
world; I always taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, where the Jews
always met; and in secret have I said nothing(John 18:20)The Bible
tells the believer to have his "loins girt about with truth" and to
put on the "breastplate of righteousness,"(Ephesians 6:10-17) such
metaphorical language never implies Christians are to place their trust in
actual physical objects(garments). The idea has No biblical justification
Trust McKay Coppins to get it right.I hope he returns to the DN
someday. He is a real talent.
Great to see our Mormon scholar LValfre is on here to keep everyone honest;
according to LValfre's version of honesty.Interesting that you
counsel someone to not look the other way on things, be objective and RATIONAL.
Who says 'Rational' hasn't done what you recommend? Every think that you are the
one who is looking the other way, not being rational or objective?Interesting how it's always the other guy's fault, right? Well, I know the
truth. I know the LDS church is the Lord's church. I know the Book of Mormon is
the word of God. I know that continuing revelation is on the earth through the
Lord's prophet, Thomas Monson. I know Joseph Smith restored the gospel on the
earth.Now, go be humble, submissive, open heart, read the Book of
Mormon, ponder the teachings, pray with sincerity and you too will know the
truth of these things. Go and return and report.
If you're wearing a particular kind of underwear because you won't be considered
a valiant member of the Church if you don't it can raise a few eyebrows. It's no
big deal to members but imagine what the world outside of Utah thinks about
Since someone brought up Amish I think it is worth noting a few things. The
Amish do not "live their lives like it is the 1800s", they try to live
their lives in a plain, modest, unpretentious manner. They actually do accept
some new forms of technology, but they weigh how a new form will effect their
community.Anyone who has been following the news closely would know
that recently some Amishmen were sent to jail in Kentucky for refusing to put
gaudy, orange signs on their buggies. They were willing to place reflective
tape and red lanterns on their buggies, which were just as good, but the state
did not want to cooperate. The Amish have actually been sent to prison more
often than other religious groups, and for "crimes" like refusing
gaudy tape or not sending their children to far off, new fangled schools where
they would be disconnected from the community.One reason you hear
very little of the Amish is that in general they view it against their religion
to vote. This is also true of the Jehovahs Witnesses.
I really, really hope this does not lead to questions about other candidates
clothing decisions. I can see why people bring this issue up. It
is in part because of people out there who misrepresent the purpose and nature
of the clothing in question and mock it. Hopefully we can find ways to speak
about this civilly, respectfully and in a way that people realize there is
nothing evil or sinister involved.
This is a very well reasoned and thoughtful approach to the issue. These are
sacred things that should not be treated lightly. On the other hand, the
existence of these things is not secret. There are many religion
groups that wear specific clothing. The Jewish examples given here are probably
the best analogies. Sikhs wearing turbans and white clothing may be another
good analogy. Sadly in two states that still prevents Sikhs from serving as
public school teachers. As far as I know garment wearing Mormons have not been
excluded from teaching in the public schools on the "no religious
clothing" rule. I half wish someone would try, just to expose how truly
discriminatory such rules are.
@Rational,"Facts are not really factual when they carefully
selected, sorted, and bent to serve one's purpose rather than the whole
truth."Check your churches facts ... Don't look the other way
on things either, be objective and RATIONAL. Then tell us the truth.
@Pagan,Facts are not really factual when they carefully selected,
sorted, and bent to serve one's purpose rather than the whole truth.You above all should know this.
Red CorvetteI really think you have it totally confused. Like Red
Corvettes from the first one that rolled off a production line the designs of
the garment like the design of the Corvette have gone through some obvious
changes from the old simple one style fits all of quite a few years back to
having several models with various options as we know of them to day. Where
you are obviously mistaken...is thier purpose which there has been no change in
thier purpose as you wrongfully imply. Despite the noteriety of being able to
say "Hey I own a Corvette." which despite it's price tag is still only
an A to B form of Conveyance... Whereupon the garment basically is as always
still used primarily to remind us to ask for directions once in a while on our
own personal A-B journey's from here to eternity. Your information from old
timers is definitely wrong.
Completely inappropriate to discuss in the mainstream media.
@ Red Corvette"Have to love the new spin on the purpose of
wearing garments has changed too. All old members of the church know
different." What happened to stopping bullets and protecting against fire?
There's always a new spin on EVERYTHING that's questioned ... the spins change
to best suit society through the decades.@MoJules"Be warned when you go to the blog that there are some advertisements at
the top that are a not PG." Thanks Mo. I'm pretty sure we're all adults
in here though. We'll survive a non-PG AD. If you're reading the paper with
your toddler though, then kudos to a kid with a bright future!
'Third try' - Truthseeker | 5:17 p.m. Jan. 26, 2012 You notice that
too, huh? Apparently the term 'civil discourse'... is
code for: 'Whatever promotes my agenda.' NOT, facts.
Third tryWe need to dissect people's underwear now? Is this a necessary
topic or important topic? re:MaddenPagan was right. Profit
doesn't always equal jobs. Bain and other private equity firms make money
whether the companies they acquire go bankrupt or not. How?"If a private-equity firm wants to make money, it has to improve the
value of the companies it buys. Historically private-equity firms had a
powerful incentive to make companies perform better. In the past decade, though,
that calculus changed. Having already piled companies high with debt in order to
buy them, many private-equity funds had their companies borrow even more, and
then used that money to pay themselves huge special dividends. This allowed them
to recoup their initial investment while keeping the same ownership stake.
Before 2000, big special dividends were not that common. But between 2003 and
2007 private-equity funds took more than seventy billion dollars out of their
companies. These dividends created no economic valuethey just redistributed
money from the company to the private-equity investors. As a result,
private-equity firms are increasingly able to profit even if the companies they
run go under."(The New Yorker)
The Amish wear top hats and beards, black clothing, and live their live's like
it was the 1800's. Don't have to think to hard as to why they are left alone,
and other religious organizations are constantly being looked at and making the
news. Do we?
"Profit does NOT mean American jobs."Ah the party machine
is alive and working. Please do some research about the companies that Bain
Capital has helped. Ever hear of Staples? Sports Authority? Brookstone? Do
people work at those companies, or do they just run themselves?
paganThere is a huge difference in determining if someone is
qualified or capable of being president. The Constitution clearly outlines who
qualifies for the presidency. Underwear is not written anywhere on the
constitution. So the president can wear boxers, briefs, religious, or no
underwear or whatever they care to wear silk, cotton, poly etc.The
Constitution does state that the president must be a natural born citizen of the
United States.That's the difference.It's amazing that
someone that collects headlines and newsarticles, hasn't taken the time to read
Pagan, this was an article about underwear, not birth certificates. As for
being a successful businessman ... you have to run your business within the tax
laws and rules of the country and sometimes to be profitable you have to lay
people off and sometimes you even move your business overseas.
Thanks McKay. Liked you when you wrote for DesNews. Had a few qualms about a
Mitt Newsweek article of yours, but glad to say I enjoyed this, particularly
your quoting the Church's website and Elder Asay's awesome quote.
@Pagan - I always enjoy your fact-filled posts. But to say "Profit does NOT
mean American jobs?" Nice tag-line, no substance. I am in a small business
running a department, and I can tell you that if the business is not profitable
enough you need to either increase revenue, cut costs or go out of business.
Yes, business sometimes feels callous, and laying people off stinks, but it is
sometimes the best cost-cutting move you can make. In some cases, there are ways
to turn things around without layoffs, but they tend to take more time and you
risk losing everything.To act like businesses can print their own
money and not make hard decisions is wrong. Unlike the US Govt, you either get
in the black or EVERYONE will be out of a job. Blanket statements like yours
about Romney and jobs are getting boring.
Pagan- let it go. Take a breather. This is an article about LDS undergarments,
not about Obama.
This is getting to the point where the Media is getting desperate to report
anything about LDS beliefs and Romney. If people wanted to know this they can
read about it on any church related website. We are voting for the guy to be the
next president,I personally could care less what any canidates beliefs were, all
I care about is if he can get the job done.
@Counter Intelligence;Finally!!! A comment from you I agree with.
'The fact that this even came up as an issue is pathetic' - Counter Intelligence
| 12:19 p.m. Jan. 26, 2012 I agree. And who, brings it
up? **'Fox News host: Romney not Christian' - By Hal Boyd, Deseret
News - 07/17/11 **'Rick Perry backer decries Mitt Romney, Mormons' -
By Jamshid Ghazi Askar, Deseret News - 10/08/11 **Cult of Mormon
comment leads Newt Gingrichs Iowa political director, Craig Bergman, to resign -
By Tad Walch Deseret News 12/14/11 **Rick Santorum-backing pastor
plays the Mormon cult card By Joseph Walker Deseret News 01/20/2012 Not. Obama.
I knew this would come up. It's going to get uglier and meaner. Fasten your
@ Red Corvette,I've been going to the temple for almost 50 years and
don't have the slightest idea about what you're referring to. Those who
understand the sacred nature of the LDS undergarment certainly "know"
not to "spin" things here in the DN comments--whether they are old or
"Isn't that what's important? "No, we're electing a
President, not Father of the Year. What matters most is his direction for the
nation and I disagree very much for it. So regardless of how well he runs a
business, loves his family, or practices what he preaches, when there's an
alternative like Obama who I agree with much more on policy, I'm going to
support Obama (though it helps that Obama's a good family man too, this would be
harder if Obama were like Gingrich with Obama's policy positions).
'I sure hope we get to hear what kind of underwear Obama wears, or Newt wears
... really? Romney knows how to run a successful business...' - bleeding purple
| 10:56 a.m. Jan. 26, 2012 So, we have to know what undear Obama
wears now? **'Obama shows birth certificate' - By Ben Feller - AP -
Published by DSNews - 04/27/11 And your upset that people question
Romney's undergarments?? But 'not' Obama's long form birth
certificate he got from Hawaii with a legal exception? Nothing is
enough for some people! As for Romney being a 'successful
businessman'... **'GOP rivals turn Romneys jobs record against him'
- By Kasie Hunt - AP - Published by DSnews - 01/09/2012 'A separate
AP analysis found that at least 4,000 workers lost their jobs at 45 companies
bought by Bain...' - article Tell that... to Phyllis
Detro. **'Mitt Romney as job creator clashes with Bain record of job
cuts' - By Lisa Lerer, Bloomberg News - Published by DSNews - 07/20/11 "Employees who lost jobs at Bain-controlled companies (sic) say they
still hold Romney responsible."I would not vote for him for
anything," said Phyllis Detro, 68, who lost her job..."
Profit does NOT mean American jobs.
Really?? This is news? Let it go...
Why is there a picture of the politician holding the obligatory baby in relation
to this article?
Tempest. In. Teapot.
I sure hope we get to hear what kind of underwear Obama wears, or Newt wears ...
really? Romney knows how to run a successful business, loves his family, and
actually practices what he preaches as far as religion goes. Isn't that what's
important? Do we really need to speculate about his underwear?
Be warned when you go to the blog that there are some advertisements at the top
that are a not PG.
What is strange are the poeple that wear the live strong braclets, or have the
ribbons on their cars, or bumper stickers on their cars, or tattoos on their
body (magic tattoos maybe), how about people with dozens of piercings-especially
through the nose like a bull, or skateboarders wearing tight jeans, or various
Christian beliefs wearing the cross, or having statues of Buddha the list can go
on and on.Yet I just never see articles about these topics other
than tattoos and why people do it. Not sure why people care about what
underwear other people wear.The nation has trillions of debt,
reckless spending with no end in sight. Yet here we are discussing whether or
not a group of people can wear underwear that they want to wear for religious
reasons.This is why journalism is dying or is dead.