I'm not sure how much more insane the edicts of warren jeffs have to become
before we have to admit that there is a danger in giving out the free passes to
anyone who calls their idea a religion. Jeffs seems bent on finding out,
however, and this fiasco continues unchecked by law enforcement, as he tightens
his grip on money, power and sex. I fear that, if we don't deal with these
prison camps on the border something very bad will happen there, if it hasn't
Just think, our country could be doing the same kinds of things with us in a few
years. They too want to take away our money and our freedom and they one day
would want to stop childbearing like China.
2 things:1st, article quote: "The mainstream Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints abandoned the practice in 1890 as a condition of
Utah's statehood". Absolutely false. The members of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did NOT stop practicing polygamy
because we wanted our territory to become a state/member of the United States of
America. We stopped practicing polygamy because Jesus Christ, through his
authorized servant and prophet, Wilford Woodruff, told us to do so. Anyone who
claims otherwise needs to go read the excerpts from several sermons from Pres.
Woodruff that are contained in the Doctrine and Covenants that go along with
what is called "Official Declaration 1".Christ's prophets
do not do what is "popular", they do what the Lord tells them to do.
Period.2nd, if Jeffs really does try to impose his idea of no sexual
relations in the FLDS church, even between legally married husbands and wives,
just watch that church fall apart. The destruction will NOT be pretty and will
not take long to begin.
Ok Dan,Regarding polygamy and the priesthood for blacks, lets just
say that God's timing is impeccable.And the outside
"pressure" in both instances had Nothing to do with it.Must just be coincidence.
Dear Joe Blow:I believe the Lord took the burden of polygamy away
for three basic reasons: 1. The practice was being abused. 2. The practice had
served it's purpose. 3. The people were suffering so much because of the federal
government's persecution of the saints and threats to seize the Temples. The
members had done everything they could to live the principle. The Lord accepted
their sacrifice and no longer required them to suffer. Virtually all who
practiced hated it and were greatly relieved to be rid of it.There
was virtually NO political pressure to give blacks the priesthood at the time of
the revelation. There had been some pressure a few years earlier, but at the
time, that pressure had passed. The fact is, the Lord is a very
smart politician. He understands the circumstances we are dealing with here on
earth. He will direct his servants to institute policies that are not only
morally appropriate, but those that will allow his Church to move forward to the
world. His work will NOT be thwarted.Yes, his timing IS impeccable.
@CATS: There was virtually NO political pressure to give blacks the priesthood
at the time of the revelation. There had been some pressure a few years earlier,
but at the time, that pressure had passed. No way,By 1978, Brazil
was one of the strongest reasons why the ban was lifted. The opening of its new
temple in Sao Paulo, the LDS Church was ordaining hundreds of Brazilians to its
priesthood. Did the LDS Church ignore Brazilian history? Between 1538 and
Brazil's abolition of slavery in 1888, about five million African slaves were
brought to that country. Through mixed marriages, Mulattos make up a substantial
portion of the Brazilian population. How would the LDS Church possibly know
whether or not those being ordained were qualified? With the dedication of this
temple only a few months away, it would seem imperative that the church either
lift the ban or face the possibility of a public relations nightmareApostle Bruce R. McConkie, A few months earlier,Negroes in this Lifetime are
denied the Priesthood( Mormon Doctrine,23rd printing 1977 p 527-228). Changed
in later printings.
The claim that the Church repudiated polygamy as a condition for Utah to gain
statehood is false. A realistic totally secualr assesment of the situation is
that the Church repudiated polygamy because the government was seeking to
destroy the Church as an institution if it continued. The state of Idaho had
included in its constitution provisions that banned anyone who belong to a
Church that advocated polygamy from voting. This meant that no Mormon could
vote, even if he was a 30-year-old bachelor or if he was like Elder Anthon H.
Lund of the 12, a man who had been married to his one and only wife for 30 plus
years. On a subject people have somehow linked to this article,
Bruce R. McConkie in 1978 made a statement that every and all statement he had
made before June of 1978 was made in darkness and that the added light and
knowledge recieved by President Kimball's revelation meant those statements by
him (and others, but specifically by him) were misguided guesses made in
darkness.Elder McConkie repudiated all his pre-1978 statements.
People should stop quoting them.
Darius Gray and others have observed that the pressure on the Church about the
matter of the priesthood restriciton of blacks was much lower in 1978 than it
had been at any other time in the last decade.Why God chose then to
give a strong and unequivocal direction to end the policy, and why he had
allowed it before, I do not know. I can think of some explanations that might
explain it a little, but they are probably wrong. I would advise anyone who
really cares to read Elder Sitati's general conference talk. I think he is
alluding to this matter, but of course in Kenya the 1978 Revelation does not
have the almost immediate effect in did in Nigeria and Ghana. On
this day we remember Martin Luther King, I think we should also remember Elijah
Abel, Ruffin Bridgeforth, Joseph Freeman. Freemna was the first black man
ordained to the Melchezidec Priesthood after the 1978 revelation, and the first
black man sealed to his spouse (who was Hawaiian) in the temple (specifically
Salt Lake City, and their children were sealed to them just aterward). The
sealing was preformed by Thomas S. Monson.
Ruffin Bridgeforth was the first man of African descent ordained a high priest.
He was ordained by Boyd K. Packer.President Hinckley's powerful
denouncing of racism at general conference was caused by his communications with
Darius Gray and learning that some members of the Church continued to use
hurtful and derogatory terms towards people of African descent.I
will be the first to say there is still too much racism in the Church. I am not
sure that there is much the leaders of the Church can do more. If you actually
read their talks they definantly do not countenance racism. Maybe more explicit
denouncing of racism would help. Maybe Elder Oaks and Elder Holland should
denounce racist justifications for the priesthood restriction in conference as
they did in the interviews for the PBS program. I guess the
teaching that not accepting people of African descent in the Church is similar
to the early reluctance to accept Gentiles in the Christian Church that has for
many years been part of the Sunday School curriculum is a clear denouncing of
racism, but maybe not explicit enough. I do not know the answer.
I must admit that it's amusing though not surprising so see the critics jump on
this subject. Very predictable.Sad empty little lives.
so much for free agency...
Considering Jeffs is in prison on a life sentance, I find it hard to see how we
are "giving a free pass" to people who claim to be acting in the name
of religion. Ditto on the state seizing his slush fund, I mean trust fund.
Even though in that case it might be given back into the hands of those who
would use it to enforce religious conformity.This article would be
more credible if it gave all 8 questions, of course I do not expect much from
the Associated Press. I do think mentions of these questions seem to be scare
tactics to try to make these people seem excessively weird. Religious groups
have a right to ask questions, and if people do not like them, they have the
right to leave.The Amish kick out large numbers of people, and so do
the FLDS. That is the main message of the article. Prosecute people for
crimes, but there is no evidence that Jeffs followers are currently involved in
crimes, at least if they are abiding by his ban on sexual relations.
RE: John Pack Lambert of Michigan ,On a subject people have somehow linked to
this article, Bruce R. McConkie in 1978 made a statement that every and all
statement he had made before June of 1978 was made in darkness.Who
can you trust? google, Mark E Peterson on race problems.(Genesis
7:10 JST), And there was a blackness came upon all the children of Cainan, that
they were despised among all people. And (Genesis 7:22 JST) ,..all the seed of
Adam save it were the seed of Cain; for the seed of Cain were black and had not
a place among them.
It would be much appreciated if JPL refrained from making such broad comments
that sound very much as though he is the fountain of knowledge for all things
LDS. There is a very simple explanation for Elder McConkie's statements
regarding blacks: he was wrong. Why some within the Church see fit to make such
long excuses for his actions is beyond me. He was wrong, he was never perfect.
That should be good enough for all of us.
I found JPL's comments to be balanced and informative. Some people talk in
short sentances that carry a lot of content, others use longer sentances. I am
glad to learn of what he had to say.
Jeffs is in Jail for Life. Jeffs has No Power. Unless they subject
them selfs to the Non Power.Any Adult can be or belong to anything
they want as this is America, You can put on a Burkka if you want to, and No one
can stop you and in and of itself it is not a mental disorder.Point,
the Adults can do as they see fit, however the kids and the female kids most of
all need to be watched by the State which ever one their in. Be it Arizona,
Utah, Texas, California wherever. Watched for such things as General
Abuse, Sexual Abuse and Underage Marriage forced or other wise. Religion Does
NOT Trump Law.Small in number Abuse still needs to be stopped.Forced Church Attendance can be seen as Abuse, and Forced Marriage is
Abuse, also living a certain way out of fear of losing, House, Food and or
Shelter is Abuse.Also being Home, Group, or Non Schooled, sheltered
in order to impose a certain logic or ideal as only or opposed to any-other is,
or can be seen as Mental Health Abuse. (Brain Washing).
"'Do you accept Warren Jeffs as God's mouthpiece and your prophet,' and if
you believe he can rule in all the affairs of your life," said
(Lyle)Jessop."I'd be scared that someone would try and take
away my right to have my own free will and agency to direct my life according to
the way I want to go. That is one of the most insane questions I've ever heard
coming from the FLDS group.
Interesting sidnote, the FLDS has been snowing LDS leadership from bishops on up
with letters and "revelations" from Jeffs withing the last month.