Quantcast

Comments about ‘Amy Choate-Nielsen: Mormons say polygamy morally wrong, Pew poll shows’

Return to article »

Published: Sunday, Jan. 15 2012 7:00 p.m. MST

Comments
  • Oldest first
  • Newest first
  • Most recommended
skeptic
Phoenix, AZ

It all brings to mind Scott's quote:

Oh what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive.

Wonthaggi
SLC, UT

"but new plural marriages did not take place after the 1890 manifesto in the LDS temples"

Francis Lyman sealed a plural wife to my GGrandfather John W. Taylor (son of John Taylor) 3 days after the 1890 manifesto. Ironically, it was Francis Lyman who then conducted the "trial" of John W. Taylor (and Mathias Cowley) 20 years later.

Daymon Smith has done some excellent work on this topic. Drew Briley will likely publish his work on this, as well. As has been mentioned, Quinn has documented the fact that plural marriages continued beyoned the 1890 manifesto.

Thinkman
Provo, UT

Polygamy is still very much a part of the present day LDS Church. See Doctrine and Covenants Section 132. Polygamy may not be practiced or accepted as current doctrine by the LDS church in mortal life, but in the next life, Polygamy is a central part of LDS Church doctrine.

zoar63
Mesa, AZ

I have a theory:

If the nation ever legalized gay marriage, then polygamy would soon follow. If gay marriage is a civil rights issue, then any laws prohibiting polygamy would have to be overturned in the true spirit of equal rights.

That would pose an interesting dilemma for the LDS since plural marriage would be at its doorstep once again. Most LDS are ignorant of the fact the manifesto is in effect until plural marriage becomes legal. This was brought up in court before the turn of the century when the LDS Church was petitioning the government to return its property after it had obeyed the laws of the land regarding polygamous marriages. Both parties came to an understanding that the ban on plural marriages was to remain in effect until the present system of things changes.

Here is the direct quote from the proceedings.

The practice of plural marriage by the church was definitely abandoned without the expectation of its renewal AS LONG AS THE PRESENT ORDER OF THINGS REMAINS

Latter-day, Comprehensive History v6 (B. Roberts),

zoar63
Mesa, AZ

I have a theory:

If the nation ever legalized gay marriage, then polygamy would soon follow. If gay marriage is a civil rights issue, then any laws prohibiting polygamy would have to be overturned in the true spirit of equal rights.

That would pose an interesting dilemma for the LDS since plural marriage would be at its doorstep once again. Most LDS are ignorant of the fact the manifesto is in effect until plural marriage becomes legal. This was brought up in court before the turn of the century when the LDS Church was petitioning the government to return its property after it had obeyed the laws of the land regarding polygamous marriages. Both parties came to an understanding that the ban on plural marriages was to remain in effect until the present system of things changes.

Here is the direct quote from the proceedings.

The practice of plural marriage by the church was definitely abandoned without the expectation of its renewal AS LONG AS THE PRESENT ORDER OF THINGS REMAINS

Latter-day, Comprehensive History v6 (B. Roberts),

sharrona
layton, UT

RE:LDS4 (Polygamy)Obviously the holy practice will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium. (Mormon Doctrine p. 578 Bruce R. McConkie).
We(Mormons) believe marriage is an earthly ordinance and must be done here. We believe those who were sealed in the Temple here on earth, and live faithful to their covenants with God, continue their family relationships in Heaven. John Walsh,Fair LDS.

Wrong, For when the DEAD rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven,(Mt 22:30 NLT). No marriage in heaven because Angels are heavenly beings Created by God (Psalm 148 2,5 )&( Col 1:16) Angels do not procreate, sexless.

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home Fallen angels(devils)Not(first estate) pre mortal beings. (Jude 1:6 NIV ).

Kevin J. Kirkham
Salt Lake City, UT

JoeBlow: The prophet gets a "revelation" from God, and it is then put to vote?

KJK: Yes. The D&C requires it. D&C 137 & 138, the priesthood revelation and the Manifesto halting polygamy were likewise put to a vote.

Scotchipman: @lds4gaymarriage, You said "The bottom line is that if anything isn't sustained by the Church via Common Consent, it is NOT official Church doctrine. It is someone's private opinion and is NOT binding upon the Church as doctrine." If this is true then the Mormon church has A LOT of doctrine that is not official..

KJK: Yep. Many things are pure speculation. The Brethren stated that not everything said in General Conference, is doctrinal. All people, LDS and non, like to speculate on things not discussed in scripture. Thats how various denominations were formed.

Sharrona: For when the DEAD rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage.

KJK: Christ was talking about those married under the Law of Moses (see v.23-29). Matt 16:19, 18:18 says that whatever is bound on Earth is bound in Heaven. We shall judge the angels (1 Cor. 6:3), not be them.

garybeac
Chapel Hill, NC

Most of the critical nexuses in Israel's royal lineage involved polygamy. Abraham, Jacob, and David come to mind. Clearly, polygamy has a place in Heavenly Father's plans. It is also apparent that polygamy attracted and secured conversions vital to the early Restored Church. Whether polygamous marriages endure the final judgment is unclear. O My Father, help us understand the love you express and offer to us in eternal marriage.

RyaninOgden
OGDEN, UT

voice of reason,

I would guess, of the 1,000 or so polled, that they were almost all self identified as mormon. You 14 M members of the church number is in itself inflated because it is including "inactive members" which would be in the millions. If you polled all of those 14 million people, I would guess the results would bother you more than the ones listed in this article.

Lastly, take a statistics leason. IF you have a true random sample, AND your sample size is large enough (usually over 32 will do it) the sample should be representitive of the population... they will never ask all 14 million people what their thoughts about drinking are.... that's stupid. I will conceed that some of the questions could have been worded poorly to skew the results.

zoar63
Mesa, AZ

Sharrona

Your argument comes from a scripture in the New Testament.

Jesus was approached by the the Sadducees which was a Jewish sect that did not believe in the resurrection. They posed an interesting question to Christ about seven men who had married their brothers wife. It seems like each brother died and the next brother married the same woman up until the last. The Sadducees wanted to know whose wife she would be in the resurrection.

Now this is the important part of what Christ told them. First of all he said they were in error not knowing the scriptures. Then he pronounces judgment on this heretical sect that have denied the resurrection Saying For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. The THEY Christ was referring to was those Sadducees that were denying the resurrection, not the world in general. He further points out to them that God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Since the Sadducees denied the resurrection, he corrected them on their false belief. They had made a serious error.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

brahmabull: I forgot about two interviews done by Larry King. So what. No misleading at all.

Now for lds4 and yourself in answer to what is and isn't scripture. Both of you are wrong on General Conference. Both of you have access to the Gospel Principles book so I suggest you both go back and read Chapter 10. You will find that the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and GENERAL CONFERENCE talks are all considered scripture. Now this doesn't mean that all are but all given by the Quorum of the Twelve and First Presidency are SCRIPTURE and binding to all LDS.

Quote: "In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired word of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the LIAHONA or ENSIGN magazine,and instructions to local priesthood leaders. 'We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and import things pertaining to the kingdom of God."

However, when acting not in the capacity to teach as indicated above, their comments can be construed as opinion.

michaelm
Waukesha, WI

The pollsters missed some important nuances about our opinions complexities. For example the drinking one, LDS members may not drink alcohol for the most part, however I've never met one in business who opposed other's drinking. If you asked me If I drink or if I approve of drinking in my home, or do I care if others I deal with socially or in business drink, each would get a deferent response from me as well as most members I would guess.

People who are suspicious about Mormons because we don't drink should not think there is a superiority complex or that we would judge, most of us would not, perhaps the few idiots in every group but most of us have been taught to recognize everyones right to freedom of choice and free will, we expect people to be responsible for their own actions and accountable for our mistakes too.

This holds true on homosexual issues; Ask me if I accept the many gay people I know and work with and the answer is completely yes, ask me if I support gay marriage, the answer is a clear no, or LGBT training in schools again no.

Capella
BAKERSFIELD, CA

A lot of hot air. Just read ALL the comments, diaries, pulpit preaching, doctrinal statements and verified historical accounts on polygamy from 1838-1890. There's enough evidence to convince a 5th grader of the value and passionate adherence placed on the Principle. Why was it called The Principle?

It was not considered immoral then, and the D&C makes it clear how God considers it eternally.
Is modern Mormonism distancing itself from its founding leaders revelations?

Next time, Pew should simply quote the appropriate verses from D&C and ask if members believe plural marriage is the order of the Celestial kingdom.

Kevin J. Kirkham
Salt Lake City, UT

Bill, FAIRLDS has an essay "What is Official LDS Doctrine?". It confirms my position.

Consider -
"As to the printed discourses of even leading brethren, the same principle holds. They do not constitute the court of ultimate appeal on doctrine. They may be very useful in the way of elucidation and are very generally good and sound in doctrine, but they are not the ultimate sources of the doctrines of the Church, and are not binding upon the Church. The rule in that respect is--What God has spoken, and what has been accepted by the Church as the word of God, by that, and that only, are we bound in doctrine." (B. H. Roberts).

"With respect to the people feeling that whatever the brethren say is gospel, this tends to undermine the proposition of freedom of speech and thought.(W)e also have only to defend those doctrines of the Church contained in the four standard works: the Bible, The BoM, the D&C, and the PoGP. Anything beyond that by anyone is his or her own opinions and not scripture."
(Hugh B. Brown)

If things said in conference were scripture, why bother with Common Consent like we have?

sharrona
layton, UT

@KJK: Christ was talking about those married under the Law of Moses (see v.23-29). It has a universal application about marriage.

@zoar63,A helpful modern translation, For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the Angels in heaven.[unable to marry/procreate](MT 22:30 NLT)

The law of Marriage is for life on earth ,not heaven there will be no procreation and no death, Christians will be married to Christ in Heaven.

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. (2Cor 11:2 NIV),

Christ who is frequently depicted in the N.T. as the bridgegroom with the church(elect) as his bridegroom.

he said to me, Write: Blessed are those who are called to the MARRIAGE supper of the Lamb! And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God.(REV 19:9).

Christian want to be with God,Mormons want to be God.

Mormoncowboy
Provo, Ut

Bill:

When we demonstrate Brigham Young's teachings on Blood Atonement, or race, which were taught during conferences, it's still opinion. You can't win, and you can't lose when you have a policy that say's Prophets are only Prophets when they are right, and never when they are wrong, but they are only accountable for things they say when they are Prophets. In other words, you only allow Prophets to be accountable for things they say that are either right, or cannot be proven. Any way you look at it, your position is give Mormon Prophets the ultimate benefit of the doubt. That is faith!

UtahBlueDevil
Durham, NC

What needs to be remembered is that Prophets are men first, and the world they live(d) in impacts the the lens by which the see doctrine. My grandfather, who was a prophet of the church sported a beard. Soon after his death, beards became taboo for church leaders and have not been worn since.

Moses, a man who knew God as well as any, fell, and wasn't able to finnish the journey with his people, because he made a human mistake. Others who walked with Christ when he was here on earth, fell, or made mistakes.

Those who watched Chirst himself pull fish from a bucket to feed a multitude still had questions and needed to have their faith readjusted. To suppose the men who lead the church now are immune from the same human traits goes beyond any logic or reasoning. There were things said and recorded by the early leaders of the church that were a refelction of the times they lived in. That changes nothing about the core of the gospel what so ever. That is why we are given the gift of the spirit, are asked to pray for ourselves for our own confirmation.

O'really
Idaho Falls, ID

@ Sharrona To each his/her own interpretation. You think yours is right. LDS feel that theirs is correct. There is no need to get snarky and insulting towards LDS just because their interpretation is different than yours. Fact: We'll ALL find out in the next life...or not if there is no next life. So till that time, just enjoy your own interpretation and let LDS enjoy theirs.

Vince here
San Diego, CA

Even if you cite Old Testament prophets as practicing polygamy, there has never been a time when the practice of polygamy was free from trouble --- i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob... David... Salomon, etc...

In the most idyllic of times, City of Enoch, Garden of Eden, the Americas, 1st and 2nd centuries, polygamy is altogether absent.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

Kevin: The same suggestion goes to you as I gave to Brahmabull and LDS4: Read Chapter 10 of the Gospel Principles book that we finished studying the past two years. Why do you think the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve had both the Priesthood and the Relief Society study it for the past two years.

The quote I gave you comes directly out of the manual itself.

Now for another thing. How do we get scripture? How was the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price given to us? The Bible and the Book of Mormon comes one via Judah and the other via Joseph. The Doctrine & Covenants are mainly the revelations given through Joseph Smith and the Pearl of Great Price from translations via Joseph Smith and his testimonies. All of which are listed as the standard works of the Church. Do you suppose then that revelation and scripture stopped via the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price? Since, we belive in continued revelation, continued modern scripture then it stands to reason that it is continued via the talks as I mentioned.

to comment

DeseretNews.com encourages a civil dialogue among its readers. We welcome your thoughtful comments.
About comments