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Readers' forum: Legislative prayer

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  • Uncle Charles Where freedom and liberty reign, utah
    Jan. 15, 2012 6:31 p.m.

    ---

    @LDS Lib pontificates, "I will fight for freedom of Worship - even opposing my fellow Latter-Day Saints who seek to deny others their rights.

    Intolerance and Bigoty is NOT part of the Gospel."

    my brother in the gospel, nothing in any of your posts is about allowing freedom for anyone. Almost every post you put forward is about forcing someone to do something that you think they should be doing.

    There is nothing free in the gospel according to LDS Lib. The only intolerance is your anger and hate towards those who don't believe like you.

    Your politics are exactly the same: forcing someone to do something that they don't want to do and is not in accordance with the Constitution. If we don't agree with your Communist (definitely not a Libertarian) views, then we are all relegated to outer darkness and have no place in society.

    Is that really what you believe?

    I have no problem with any Christian prayer being offered at the Legislature. I welcome all of them. Who can't use more prayers offered in their behalf.

    It's a sad day when all someone has to complain about is who is saying the prayers!

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 14, 2012 11:33 p.m.

    Uncle Charles | 10:57 a.m. Jan. 14, 2012
    Where Freedom And Liberty Reign, Utah

    What should I be afraid of come judgment day?

    I am a great neighbor and friend.
    I treat my family well.
    I share the restored gospel with all.
    I feed the hungry and clothe the naked.
    I give jobs to those who can't find work, even when I don't need them.
    I have great relationships with my Jewish, homosexual, ex-mo, illegal immigrant and all other types of friends.


    ======================

    OK - Brother Pharisee

    I guess that makes me the looked-down upon Liberal Publican...
    to which all I can say is --
    "God, Be merciful to me, a sinner"

    Why don't you look up Luke 18 and read what the Lord said to folks like that;
    "for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

    ~Peace

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 14, 2012 9:02 p.m.

    To "Steve Warren" how about this. Utah will consider forgoing a prayer to open its session of the legislature the same year that Congress forgoes their opening prayer.

  • Uncle Charles Where freedom and liberty reign, utah
    Jan. 14, 2012 10:57 a.m.

    @LDS Lib: I don't think you know the meaning of the words you toss around like candy at a Utah parade. You claim to be a registered member of the Libertarian Party and then spout that you are a Liberal. They are not synonymous!

    What should I be afraid of come judgment day?

    I am a great neighbor and friend.
    I treat my family well.
    I share the restored gospel with all.
    I feed the hungry and clothe the naked.
    I give jobs to those who can't find work, even when I don't need them.
    I have great relationships with my Jewish, homosexual, ex-mo, illegal immigrant and all other types of friends.

    The only one doing the judging is YOU. You pontificate as if you are the 2nd coming. You arrogantly denounce all who don't believe like you (steal from one to give to another!) Find my any reference in the gospel of this action.

    It's all based on the ability to choose. You are about force. The only issue I have is with Mormons like you -- the high-mindedness, haughty attitude, better-than-thou condescension. Talk about a turn off -- look in the mirror!

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Jan. 14, 2012 10:39 a.m.

    re: George,

    Before riding too far on your high horse, would you be so kind as to document ONE INSTANCE of any Pastor or Priest asking to give a prayer before the Utah State Legislature and being refused.

    Just documented ONE INSTANCE will do.

  • George Bronx, NY
    Jan. 14, 2012 10:05 a.m.

    @mike richards
    116 years of only one religion being allowed to give the prayer Mike not hard to see the blurring of lines. The only thing being fabricated is the nice little nest of excuses you want to make.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 14, 2012 9:23 a.m.

    @Uncle Charles | 6:11 p.m. Jan. 13, 2012
    Where Freedom And Liberty Reign, Utah

    I have no problem with any Christian prayer being offered at the Legislature. I welcome all of them.

    =================

    Thanks for proving my point exactly.
    Intolerance and Bigotry - in the very same line.

    Yet, you can't even see it.

    I believe Jesus taught Karma - What goes around, comes around.
    Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.
    You will be judged (treated) as you judge (treat) others....

    If you want "others" to be tolerant of you and our Mormonism,
    You need to be willing to be tolerant and accepting of others first.

    Your intolerance festers and creates intolerance by others.

    Please, stop it.

    My Christian AND Non-Christian friends shall continue to pray for you....brother.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 14, 2012 8:12 a.m.

    re: spring street,

    Is there a "union" between the Utah State Government and the LDS Church? Is the Governor the head of the Church or is President Monson the Governor? Which is it?

    In your own mind you have fabricated something that does not exist, and you want to force that fabrication on the rest of us.

    In your own mind if two people talk, it becomes a conspiracy. In your own mind if a person of religion offers a prayer, it is a joining of Church and State. In your own mind if a church offers aid when catastrophe comes, the church has performed duties relegated to the state.

    Maybe it's time to stop fabricating "unions". Maybe it's time to realize that two men can talk without forming a conspiracy. Maybe it's time to realize that because of the way the LDS Church is organized, that Church knows of problems facing every member (Home Teaching). If the Governor or any other government official wants to know the basic needs of MANY Utahns, he can quickly get that information - or - in your mind, should church members be denied citizenship because they are members of a church?

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 8:30 p.m.

    sorry that was suppose to be exhibit expedite. Expedite does some what fit as well though.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 8:28 p.m.

    @ Mike Richards: "No matter what people "read into" those words, there is NO separation of Church and State - except in their own minds."

    Utah State Constitution (remember, we are talking about the Utah State Legislature here, so the Utah Constitution does apply), Article 1, Section 4, "There shall be no union of Church and State, nor shall any church dominate the State or interfere with its functions."

    If other religions are not invited to pray, then one religion is dominating in violation of the Utah State Constitution. (Oh - and "no union" means the same as "separation.")

    "[P]lease tell us all ... how offering a prayer before each Supreme Court session, each US Congress session, or even each Utah State Legislature session violates the ACTUAL intend words of the 1st Amendment:..."

    Multiple religions are invited to pray at most of those events - inclusions of all means exclusion of none, which is another way of not establishing a religion and ensuring free exercise thereof.

    Anything else you don't understand about this works?

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 8:18 p.m.

    you all get so upset with the stereotypes of mormons then come on here and expedite every stereotype in your attitudes towards the non lds posters and worse yet LDS liberal. If you don't like the stereotypes then stop reinforcing them through your very public behaviors.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 7:57 p.m.

    'I have no problem with any Christian prayer...' - Uncle Charles | 6:11 p.m. Jan. 13, 2012

    So, do you have a problem with prayer...

    that is NOT Christian?

    That is not 'religious tolerance'.

    It is religious...

    oppression.

    As Mormons has known the sting of persecution due to religion...

    I cannot see how they would knowingly SUPPORT oppression of, other faiths,

  • Uncle Charles Where freedom and liberty reign, utah
    Jan. 13, 2012 6:11 p.m.

    @LDS Lib pontificates, "I will fight for freedom of Worship - even opposing my fellow Latter-Day Saints who seek to deny others their rights.

    Intolerance and Bigoty is NOT part of the Gospel."

    my brother in the gospel, nothing in any of your posts is about allowing freedom for anyone. Almost every post you put forward is about forcing someone to do something that you think they should be doing.

    There is nothing free in the gospel according to LDS Lib. The only intolerance is your anger and hate towards those who don't believe like you.

    Your politics are exactly the same: forcing someone to do something that they don't want to do and is not in accordance with the Constitution. If we don't agree with your Communist (definitely not a Libertarian) views, then we are all relegated to outer darkness and have no place in society.

    Is that really what you believe?

    I have no problem with any Christian prayer being offered at the Legislature. I welcome all of them. Who can't use more prayers offered in their behalf.

    It's a sad day when all someone has to complain about is who is saying the prayers!

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 6:07 p.m.

    Prohibit all religious demonstration in legislatures. Get on with business. Keep your shenanigans to yourself.

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 4:21 p.m.

    Maverick: Any reasonable person has no problem with people of other faiths giving prayers. Congress has had prayers since the nation started and I don't know of any time it has been given by a Mormon. Using someone's calculations above, we are owed a lot of opportunities with our 2% of the US population. But we don't whine about it.

    If I was in the South, I would expect prayers to be given by baptists or pentacostals or whatever is the prevailing religion in that community. I just don't understand why SOME vocal minority of non-mormons in Utah are so anxious to be insulted.

    But let them pray. I don't know any Mormon that'g going to start a boycott or vandalize property if some other faith is allowed to pray in the legislature.

    But please, just stop the incessant indignant posturing.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 3:56 p.m.

    What's wrong with other faiths giving prayers? I don't get it. What's there to be afraid of? Is it the competition? But I thought repubs loved competition!

    I'm sorry Mike, but that pesky thing called THE CONSTITUTION ruins your agenda.

    We need to stop promoting agendas and get back to following the Constitution written by inspired leaders.

    This isn't the middle ages where kings and lords got to pick and choose which laws to obey.

    I believe that our leaders should not only allow other types of prayers to be made, but encourage it!

    Learning about different faiths, representing all, and serving everyone is the key to a Representative Democracy.

    We either have religious freedom for all or religious freedom for NONE.

    You cannot pick and choose which prayers you want to have.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 3:53 p.m.

    Re: LDS Liberal,

    Most of us who post know exactly what takes place inside the confines of the "interview". We know that that no one who "proclaims" what you proclaim everyday could pass those "interviews". Words such as "honesty" are part of those interviews. Can anyone who has proclaimed to the world that he is a disciple of Christ tell people to pray in the name of Buddha or Mohamed or someone else? Honesty doesn't come in "shades of gray". Honesty is an absolute. It is black or white.

    You've advocating worshiping other gods, gods which have nothing to do with the religion that you profess.

    You can hide behind your moniker, but you can't hide who you are - inside. That is the character that you develop each day of your life.

    Read your posts. You seldom stand for the Church which you claim membership, but you are the first in line to tell people to thumb their noses at that Church.

    To some of us, your act has become boring.

    Prayer is between man and God. If you are unwilling to help mankind know which God rules, then you are left to worship the other "gods".

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 3:52 p.m.

    LDS Liberal: "Intolerance and Bigoty is NOT part of the Gospel."

    I find it interesting for you to say that since I see a continual stream of intolerance from you toward your fellow saints. I've seldom seen so much judging, often based on stereotypes or prejudices you have in your own mind, from one person toward a group of people as you have shown toward members of the LDS church.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 3:33 p.m.

    J Thompson | 1:53 p.m. Jan. 13, 2012
    SPRINGVILLE, UT
    re: LDS Liberal,

    Let us know how your next recommend interview goes. Inquiring minds want to know.

    Do you think you can thrash the Church because you hide behind a fictitious name?

    If you believe in Satan, then worship him. If you believe in Mohamand, then worship him. The same goes for Buddha. But, if you worship the Son of God, then stop encouraging people to worship false gods.

    ====================

    1. My "Interviews" [like everyone else's] are none of you business, They between me and my Bishops. But since you've asked; I've been consistantly "card carrying" for nearly 40 years.

    2. By my inviting my Non-LDS friends and neighbors to pray in THEIR State Legislature (yes, they live here too) -- how does that make me "trashing" the LDS church?
    This is a State Legislature issue -- NOT a Sacrament Meeting.

    3. I "Invite" all to come unto Christ, and allow others to worship Who, Where or What they may.

    I will fight for freedom of Worship - even opposing my fellow Latter-Day Saints who seek to deny others their rights.

    Intolerance and Bigoty is NOT part of the Gospel.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 3:27 p.m.

    Our legislators need all the prayers they can get. But it still probably won't do much good. They will still churn out the same old extremist nonsense.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 2:21 p.m.

    'If you believe in Satan, then worship him. If you believe in Mohamand, then worship him. The same goes for Buddha. But, if you worship the Son of God, then stop encouraging people to worship false gods.' - J Thompson | 1:53 p.m. Jan. 13, 2012

    So....every other religion should show tolerance...EXCEPT any Christian based faith??

    This line of reasoning, is the problem with many forms of christianity.

    While scripture cites 'put me before any other God' I don't think that reads...

    'Attack, any other God.'

    You can believe in God...and TOLERATE other beliefs!

    Zero tolerance can only lead to violence.

    Jihad
    Crusades
    Oaklahoma bombing
    9/11

    These are ALL examples of 'zero tolerance' in regards to something that should be...

    personal.

    i.e. if you are Christian and you must be FORCED to be tolerant of other people and beliefs...?

    You are, neither.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 1:53 p.m.

    re: LDS Liberal,

    Let us know how your next recommend interview goes. Inquiring minds want to know.

    Do you think you can thrash the Church because you hide behind a fictitious name? Is it easy to strut around in a pretend world where you hide behind anonymity? Try it in the real world where real men use their names.

    If you believe in Satan, then worship him. If you believe in Mohamand, then worship him. The same goes for Buddha. But, if you worship the Son of God, then stop encouraging people to worship false gods.

    While you're thinking about things, why not study what "an" means. You used the definite article "A". The correct usage is "an establishment". Although literacy has been abandoned by the left, most of us know the difference between "A" and "An", just as we know the difference between "the" and "an".

    Ranting and using non-sequiturs may be amusing, but this is not the comedy section of the Deseret News.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 1:14 p.m.

    I dont think that anyone is harmed by public prayer.

    However,

    Religious people need it and non-religious people view it as an unfair commercial advertisement, posted in a place where commercial advertising if prohibited.

    I think the religious people create religious enemies by their insistence on special rules for themselves and the apparent war against the non-religious. Its debatable whether or not their actions help or hinder religion.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 1:12 p.m.

    The Real Maverick | 11:05 a.m. Jan. 13, 2012
    Orem, UT
    Why not invite those of other faiths to offer prayers? I don't see any issue with that.

    ====================

    Say, I like that idea!

    I'll ask several of my friends --
    a Baptist, an Episcopalian, a Muslim, a Buhdahist, and a Wiccan.

    Thanks Mike Richards for letting us know who and how to call to set that up!

    In order to avoid the "establishment" of "A" Religion, you gotta have more than just one.

    Either Everyone gets a chance, or no one gets the chance.
    That's only fair.

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 1:07 p.m.

    When I say I am offended by a TV show or a billboard or an adult store near a school, the lefties get all up in arms and tell me to quit trying to control their right to filth. I should just ignore it.

    I would now like to return your own advice. If you are offended by a roadside cross or a prayer in the legislature, just ignore it.

    Are you okay with that or does it offend your sense of hypocrisy?

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2012 1:03 p.m.

    Oh how the left loves to howl.

    They first tell us that there must be a separation of Church and State and then they demand that we worship their god on their terms and that the State be instructed to make rules or laws concerning religion.

    Do they understand the word, "irony"?

    Do they understood the word, "hypocrite"?

    If any poster wants to offer a prayer before a legislative session, just tell me when YOU want to pray and I will make the call for you.

    This issue is not about separation, it is about control. They want to dictate how we pray and to whom we pray. The Constitution means nothing to them. They think that a judge has the right to overturn the Supreme Law of the Land to restrict the right of the people to worship God without Government intervention. They stand for everything contrary to the 1st Amendment and then they have the gall to tell us that "we just don't understand".

    At another time, they would have been called, "king men", but that is politically incorrect in our day; but one thing is certain, they have no use for God. He hinders them.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 12:26 p.m.

    @Mike Richards
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

    They sure have established the LDS as the official prayer service of the state legislature.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2012 11:46 a.m.

    As an LDS person, I believe in my Doctrine and Covenants that says "it is unjust to mingle religious influence with government." Why don't my Republican co-religionists believe that?

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 11:31 a.m.

    Wow, Uncle Charles, if you knew the Constitution and the judicial decisions that have interpreted it over the course of our history, you would know there are a lot of terms and concepts that we use, rely on and revere that are not specifically stated in the Constitution. Where are your facts? You, our friend Mike Richards and others may prefer government and church combined, but it violates the Constitution and our traditions in this country. And for you, Mike, don't distort the principle. This is about the legislative session that is always opened by leaders of one church, not a variety of faiths. I do not oppose opening the session with prayer, though my observations are that it is more a ceremony and the words are not taken to heart by those in attendance. This is about representation by other faiths as well.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 11:05 a.m.

    Why not invite those of other faiths to offer prayers? I don't see any issue with that.

  • Uncle Charles Where freedom and liberty reign, utah
    Jan. 13, 2012 10:44 a.m.

    Ah ugottabkidn, another attack on someone without any facts to support the attack.

    You have 3 more posts allowed. Use all of them to detail for us how what Mike said is taking what the 1st Amendments says out of context. The floor is yours. Convince us that you are correct. And please, you shouldn't use the phrase separation of church and state to make your argument since those words aren't in the Constitution, anywhere.

    Again, the floor is yours.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 10:39 a.m.

    'With roughly 40 percent of the state non-LDS, having 100 percent of opening session prayers offered by Mormon leaders may elicit frowns.' - Article

    The majority dosen't care.

    Because they continue to ignore that Utah is a theocracy...

    **'Federal judge dismisses Summum suit against Pleasant Grove' - By Dennis Romboy - DSNews - 06/04/10

    "A federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit against the city that claim it violated the establishment clause of the US consitution by allowing a Ten Commandments monument by rejecting one showing the the Salt Lake-based religious sects beliefs. The clause in the First Amendment prohibits government from adopting a national religion."

    While at the SAME TIME, try to claim their religious views are being 'oppressed.'

    You cannot be the victim AND the oppressor, at the same time.

    You cannot FORCE legislature to pray (strongly encourage)...and then claim you 'religious freedom' is being removed from you.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 10:20 a.m.

    Ah Mr Richards, another one sided interpetation according totally out of context. I guess I should not comment because you are a Constituional scholar and attorney. There is no protection for the minority in your world.

  • Lowonoil Clearfield, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 10:04 a.m.

    Utah politicians understand that the prayer is a necessary part of reassuring your collegues and constituents that you are a member of the proper faith, just as is the campaign postcard you send out showing you posing with your full quiver.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2012 9:11 a.m.

    If the letter writer wants to offer a prayer for the legislature, he can call the appropriate clerk and offer his services; otherwise, why should he decide for the Legislature who should pray?

    As far as separation of Church and State, please tell us all, Esquire, how offering a prayer before each Supreme Court session, each US Congress session, or even each Utah State Legislature session violates the ACTUAL intend words of the 1st Amendment:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

    No matter what people "read into" those words, there is NO separation of Church and State - except in their own minds.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Jan. 13, 2012 8:33 a.m.

    I don't think the concept of separation of Church and state is understood in Utah.