Published: Friday, Jan. 13 2012 12:00 a.m. MST
I don't think the concept of separation of Church and state is understood in
If the letter writer wants to offer a prayer for the legislature, he can call
the appropriate clerk and offer his services; otherwise, why should he decide
for the Legislature who should pray?As far as separation of Church
and State, please tell us all, Esquire, how offering a prayer before each
Supreme Court session, each US Congress session, or even each Utah State
Legislature session violates the ACTUAL intend words of the 1st Amendment:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"No matter
what people "read into" those words, there is NO separation of Church
and State - except in their own minds.
Utah politicians understand that the prayer is a necessary part of reassuring
your collegues and constituents that you are a member of the proper faith, just
as is the campaign postcard you send out showing you posing with your full
Ah Mr Richards, another one sided interpetation according totally out of
context. I guess I should not comment because you are a Constituional scholar
and attorney. There is no protection for the minority in your world.
'With roughly 40 percent of the state non-LDS, having 100 percent of opening
session prayers offered by Mormon leaders may elicit frowns.' - Article The majority dosen't care. Because they continue to ignore that
Utah is a theocracy... **'Federal judge dismisses Summum suit
against Pleasant Grove' - By Dennis Romboy - DSNews - 06/04/10
"A federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit against the city that claim it
violated the establishment clause of the US consitution by allowing a Ten
Commandments monument by rejecting one showing the the Salt Lake-based religious
sects beliefs. The clause in the First Amendment prohibits government from
adopting a national religion." While at the SAME TIME, try to
claim their religious views are being 'oppressed.' You cannot be the
victim AND the oppressor, at the same time. You cannot FORCE
legislature to pray (strongly encourage)...and then claim you 'religious
freedom' is being removed from you.
Ah ugottabkidn, another attack on someone without any facts to support the
attack.You have 3 more posts allowed. Use all of them to detail for
us how what Mike said is taking what the 1st Amendments says out of context. The
floor is yours. Convince us that you are correct. And please, you shouldn't use
the phrase separation of church and state to make your argument since those
words aren't in the Constitution, anywhere. Again, the floor is
Why not invite those of other faiths to offer prayers? I don't see any issue
Wow, Uncle Charles, if you knew the Constitution and the judicial decisions that
have interpreted it over the course of our history, you would know there are a
lot of terms and concepts that we use, rely on and revere that are not
specifically stated in the Constitution. Where are your facts? You, our friend
Mike Richards and others may prefer government and church combined, but it
violates the Constitution and our traditions in this country. And for you,
Mike, don't distort the principle. This is about the legislative session that
is always opened by leaders of one church, not a variety of faiths. I do not
oppose opening the session with prayer, though my observations are that it is
more a ceremony and the words are not taken to heart by those in attendance.
This is about representation by other faiths as well.
As an LDS person, I believe in my Doctrine and Covenants that says "it is
unjust to mingle religious influence with government." Why don't my
Republican co-religionists believe that?
@Mike Richards"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion"They sure have established the LDS as the official
prayer service of the state legislature.
Oh how the left loves to howl. They first tell us that there must
be a separation of Church and State and then they demand that we worship their
god on their terms and that the State be instructed to make rules or laws
concerning religion.Do they understand the word,
"irony"?Do they understood the word,
"hypocrite"?If any poster wants to offer a prayer before a
legislative session, just tell me when YOU want to pray and I will make the call
for you.This issue is not about separation, it is about control.
They want to dictate how we pray and to whom we pray. The Constitution means
nothing to them. They think that a judge has the right to overturn the Supreme
Law of the Land to restrict the right of the people to worship God without
Government intervention. They stand for everything contrary to the 1st
Amendment and then they have the gall to tell us that "we just don't
understand".At another time, they would have been called,
"king men", but that is politically incorrect in our day; but one
thing is certain, they have no use for God. He hinders them.
When I say I am offended by a TV show or a billboard or an adult store near a
school, the lefties get all up in arms and tell me to quit trying to control
their right to filth. I should just ignore it.I would now like to
return your own advice. If you are offended by a roadside cross or a prayer in
the legislature, just ignore it.Are you okay with that or does it
offend your sense of hypocrisy?
The Real Maverick | 11:05 a.m. Jan. 13, 2012 Orem, UT Why not invite
those of other faiths to offer prayers? I don't see any issue with that. ==================== Say, I like that idea!I'll
ask several of my friends -- a Baptist, an Episcopalian, a Muslim, a
Buhdahist, and a Wiccan.Thanks Mike Richards for letting us know who
and how to call to set that up!In order to avoid the
"establishment" of "A" Religion, you gotta have more than
just one. Either Everyone gets a chance, or no one gets the
chance.That's only fair.
I dont think that anyone is harmed by public prayer. However,Religious people need it and non-religious people view it as an unfair
commercial advertisement, posted in a place where commercial advertising if
prohibited. I think the religious people create religious enemies
by their insistence on special rules for themselves and the apparent war against
the non-religious. Its debatable whether or not their actions help or hinder
re: LDS Liberal,Let us know how your next recommend interview goes.
Inquiring minds want to know.Do you think you can thrash the Church
because you hide behind a fictitious name? Is it easy to strut around in a
pretend world where you hide behind anonymity? Try it in the real world where
real men use their names.If you believe in Satan, then worship him.
If you believe in Mohamand, then worship him. The same goes for Buddha. But, if
you worship the Son of God, then stop encouraging people to worship false gods.
While you're thinking about things, why not study what
"an" means. You used the definite article "A". The correct
usage is "an establishment". Although literacy has been abandoned by
the left, most of us know the difference between "A" and
"An", just as we know the difference between "the" and
"an". Ranting and using non-sequiturs may be amusing, but
this is not the comedy section of the Deseret News.
'If you believe in Satan, then worship him. If you believe in Mohamand, then
worship him. The same goes for Buddha. But, if you worship the Son of God, then
stop encouraging people to worship false gods.' - J Thompson | 1:53 p.m. Jan.
13, 2012 So....every other religion should show tolerance...EXCEPT
any Christian based faith?? This line of reasoning, is the problem
with many forms of christianity. While scripture cites 'put me
before any other God' I don't think that reads... 'Attack, any other
God.' You can believe in God...and TOLERATE other beliefs! Zero tolerance can only lead to violence. Jihad Crusades Oaklahoma bombing 9/11 These are ALL examples of 'zero
tolerance' in regards to something that should be... personal. i.e. if you are Christian and you must be FORCED to be tolerant of
other people and beliefs...? You are, neither.
Our legislators need all the prayers they can get. But it still probably won't
do much good. They will still churn out the same old extremist nonsense.
J Thompson | 1:53 p.m. Jan. 13, 2012 SPRINGVILLE, UT re: LDS
Liberal,Let us know how your next recommend interview goes.
Inquiring minds want to know.Do you think you can thrash the Church
because you hide behind a fictitious name? If you believe in Satan,
then worship him. If you believe in Mohamand, then worship him. The same goes
for Buddha. But, if you worship the Son of God, then stop encouraging people to
worship false gods.==================== 1. My
"Interviews" [like everyone else's] are none of you business, They
between me and my Bishops. But since you've asked; I've been consistantly
"card carrying" for nearly 40 years.2. By my inviting my
Non-LDS friends and neighbors to pray in THEIR State Legislature (yes, they live
here too) -- how does that make me "trashing" the LDS church? This is a State Legislature issue -- NOT a Sacrament Meeting.3. I
"Invite" all to come unto Christ, and allow others to worship Who,
Where or What they may. I will fight for freedom of Worship - even
opposing my fellow Latter-Day Saints who seek to deny others their rights.Intolerance and Bigoty is NOT part of the Gospel.
LDS Liberal: "Intolerance and Bigoty is NOT part of the Gospel."I find it interesting for you to say that since I see a continual stream
of intolerance from you toward your fellow saints. I've seldom seen so much
judging, often based on stereotypes or prejudices you have in your own mind,
from one person toward a group of people as you have shown toward members of the
Re: LDS Liberal,Most of us who post know exactly what takes place
inside the confines of the "interview". We know that that no one who
"proclaims" what you proclaim everyday could pass those
"interviews". Words such as "honesty" are part of those
interviews. Can anyone who has proclaimed to the world that he is a disciple of
Christ tell people to pray in the name of Buddha or Mohamed or someone else?
Honesty doesn't come in "shades of gray". Honesty is an absolute. It
is black or white. You've advocating worshiping other gods, gods
which have nothing to do with the religion that you profess.You can
hide behind your moniker, but you can't hide who you are - inside. That is the
character that you develop each day of your life. Read your posts.
You seldom stand for the Church which you claim membership, but you are the
first in line to tell people to thumb their noses at that Church.To
some of us, your act has become boring.Prayer is between man and
God. If you are unwilling to help mankind know which God rules, then you are
left to worship the other "gods".
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