Re: Ultra Bob | 10:22 a.m. Jan. 13, 2012 "Its very hard to believe
the words of the people in government and business that have done so much to
demean and diminish public education"One look at the financial
mess the liberal educated folks in California have gotten themselves into shows
that intelligence and book learnin' are two different things. At least Utah
isn't paying billions of taxpayer dollars in interest on an ever growing debt.
Worf,Also, please not that not ONE of the problems I noted above is
the teacher's fault. Most of the issues noted above are problems that can be
fixed by state and local governments. So I guess in that regard, we agree that
government is the problem. Perhaps where we disagree is where the solution
should come from. Of course, the most important solution is at home, where
parents can have a tremendous influence. But we need to focus at the policy
level on hiring, training and retaining the best folks we can to work in our
classrooms. Unfortunately, in Utah, this means more funding is almost certainly
required.Another issue I didn't address earlier is the common core
for math. Utah, for some insane reason, has decided to go it alone with their
own common core curriculum. This will mean a lack of materials, higher costs,
and probably a wide variation in classroom experience depending on the nature
and quality of training for our math teachers. While I agree that there are
deficiencies in the way we teach math, I think the solution in this case is
worse than the disease.
Worf,I have lived on both coasts and in many states in between. I
can tell you FROM EXPERIENCE, the schools here are not performing at the same
level as schools in other places. Mind you, Utah is not the worst I have seen,
but it is close. When soci-economic and two-parent families are adjusted for,
Utah is actually BELOW AVERAGE. Translated: Given our advantages, we should be
doing much better than we are. Said another way, a student from a similar
economic and family background in Utah does not do as well on average as his her
counterparts in other areas of the country.While I am sympathetic to
your point that entrenched interests think money is the answer the everything,
it is also important to note that money can be a problem for some things.
Hiring and retaining quality teachers is a challenge here, as we have well below
average teaching wages when adjusted for cost-of-living (39th nationally). If
you want to counter my point, please do so with data. It is attitudes like
yours that are keeping us from making desperately needed improvements,
particularly in important areas such as math and science.
@orfI would be interested to now exactly what states you lived in, having
lived in Utah for many years before moving to the east coast. I can tell you
there is a huge difference. There was an article siting research in this very
paper just a few days ago that attested to the fact that Utah ranks forth from
the bottom. now if you have some research that indicates differently iIwould be
happy to look at.
Sorry Charlie, but I've been in all fifty states and have lived in fifteen. I
lecture in many school districts around the country.They all think
they're behind everybody else in something. Something the state is not doing
right. It's mostly a cry for more funding.Districts follow the same
federal guild lines and is pretty much the same everywhere. Standardized tests,
teaching objectives, teaching strategies, accountability, arranging class
schedules based on test scores, curriculum, behavior procedures, special ed,
etc.You can't convince me Utah is any worse than anywhere else.
It's not true. People maybe different, but the central command is for everyone.
@worfYour comment makes no sense given that other states have a much
better education system then Utah. Like Carmon we also moved here from out of
state. We moved here from the east coast and I can tell you for a state that is
suppose to be so concerned about children the education system here is a massive
step down. You take the president to task for not taking the blame yet you try
to displace blame of quality education on the local level on the president when
other states are performing well ahead of Utah (46th). this is the result of a
lack of leadership on the local not the federal level sorry. maybe the people of
Utah should try taking some responsibility for a change.
carman,You sound inexperienced. The problem is not the teachers, but
who micro manages them and the students.Bad teachers are the excuse
of an intrusive government. They deal the cards.Like our commander
in chief, they take no blame.
The biggest problem is that we are not preparing our student adequately to GO to
college!We moved from out of state to one of the better areas (top
ranked HS, middle and elementary schools), and I can tell you that the schools
here are a noticeable and significant step down. The biggest problems, in my
judgement?1). Too many young, inexperienced teachers.2).
Not enough emphasis on recruiting, training and retaining highly qualified
teachers. In my limited experience here, I see talent jumping from the classroom
to administration, or leaving the profession altogether, just so they can afford
to raise their family.3). Low pay hurts ability to hire and retain
the best teachers, particularly in key areas like math and science. See #3.4). Too much patting ourselves on the back. Our scores and college prep
is ok, but when adjusted for demographics, achievement numbers turn poor, if not
abysmal.5). Parent and school system expectations are too low for
our students.The current Utah education system will fail a huge
percentage of students in preparing them for 21st Century Jobs. We need to
invest more and invest smarter or the long term consequences will be severe.
Education is a vital thing and I think we should never stop trying to get more
of it -- it doesn't all have to be in exchange for a degree. I
think, however, we might consider adding to the options for education. In
Europe, some opt out of university schooling, and instead go for technical and
skills education, i.e. going into a trade which does not require English, Social
Science, History, etc. And I'm not saying that those areas of education are
bad, I'm just suggesting that traditional college degrees aren't creating the
results they once did. Some do better and can make a pretty good living in a
trade instead of in an office. We need both, so why not provide accredited
training for both ends of the spectrum?
Re: Boomer JeffJust out of curiosity, when was it proven (outside of
your mind) that immigrants were naturally dumber, less educated, and less
capable at the English language than Native Americans, African Americans, Arab
Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, or the typical white person in
Utah? This would be especially valuable information as many of our Republican
presidential candidates, including the home favorite Mr. Romney, have suggested
modifying our immigration laws so as to attract the world's brightest scholars.
Apparently Mr. Jeff needs to contact the campaigns and inform them
what a terrible idea this would be as no immigrant, nor their future children
regardless of their native American citizenship, can compete with those who are
born Americans by...wait...the logic escapes me. Thank you Mr. Jeff
for this enlightening information. It speaks volumes.
Our educators are constantly testing and comparing test scores. From this they
find more ways to waste money.Here's another comparison. Increasing
welfare means a poorer educated public. This has one common denominator, a
corrupt government.Worfs law:Corrupt governments cannot
exist with an educated population.Low intellect public leads to
The problem isn't just that fewer Utahns are obtaining college degrees, but that
fewer people with college degrees are coming to and staying in Utah. Utah has
little to offer young college graduates, in both jobs and lifestyles.I've seen the recruiting videos that various businesses and the University of
Utah produce. Its pretty much all "Come to Utah, you MIGHT be able to
Ski/Snowboard for 5 months out of the year".Utah is still seen
as backward by many people, both from outside and inside Utah. Until the Utah
legislature and various city/county councils decide to stop passing homophobic,
anti-alcohol, and other lifestyle restrictions into law, Utah will continue to
suffer "Brain Drain"
@My2Cents, DeltaFoxtrot, Wayne Rout, etc.Do you truly believe that
we need LESS EDUCATION in Utah? Really? There is study after study
after study that proves that a person with a college degree earns more over a
lifetime than someone without. A little research will easily dig up that info
for you. Yes, I have a BA in Business. No, I don't work in a business field,
I'm a computer technician using the skills I learned in the Army. I could not
have even applied for my position without a degree - the agency I work for
requires it. I earn more than my uneducated family counterparts. I earn more
than my uneducated neighbors. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.
Education = $$$$$ over a lifetime.BTW, by reading some of the
ramblings and misspellings here, I can see that perhaps some of you should
obtain some college-level English grammar training.
Lower tuition to attract people who may not be able to afford a degree and the
state will get like 10 times the number of students. Many people are willing,
but can't for financial reasons.I'm not economics major, but this is
This isn't rocket science, when you have open borders and allow anyone in and
encourage them to stay, eventually all our stats are going to drop. Currently
25% of the children born are from immigrants (per another Desnews article from
today's date). A big chunk of those children are from a mother who is illegal
and doesn't speak english and doesn't have an education herself. We are going
to have higher dropout rates for high school students and fewer college degrees
because of it. Poverty rates will climb, welfare services will increase in
demand, your taxes will go up and your standard of living will decrease. Welcome
to the new America.
Why do we need more college grads?Part of the economic problem now
is that there are more college grads than there are jobs requiring degrees. This
has devalued a college education to the point that it is nearly worthless.Bring back the jobs that demand skilled educated workers and the number
of people with degrees will rise. Until then all the grads are making $8.25/hr
working at Wal-Mart.
People can't get student loans so they stop going to college. Pretty simple.
Utah's educational advantage is shrinking because the ridiculously increasing
costs of pursuing advanced degrees has far out-paced the means of the majority
of the people in this state. Students and their families end up becoming little
more than indentured servants at the hands of the unbridled greed of predatory
educational and financial institutions that have long- since trampled our
American ideals in favor of exorbitant monetary gain. Gov. Herbert says that we
need to make sure that the education we are giving is... capable, robust and
skilled. He would do well to add accessible and affordable to that list.
Dear My2Cents, wow where did all that vitriolic feeling come from. Seldom have
I seen someone spew out such anger. Please sit back and chill a little bit.
This nation would be a third world country without education. You show your
lack of a quality education through your lack of proof of your statements.Education is not cheap, but I guess you want it real cheap and real
quick. Sadly when I talk to kids about college there are far too
many who want the latest and greatest Iphone, or Android Device or they must
have the Ipad2. So many claim they can't fund their education, but when asked
they freely admit they have $200 tennis shoes, $80 dollar pants or $60 purses.
They also seem to put a lot on their credit cards for partying and socializing.
They think nothing of driving all of over the place and don't recognize the cost
of gas or wear and tear on the car. They feel this need to have 1,000's of
songs on their ipod. A $150 phone bill is nothing.I recognize many
youth are barely making it, but the ones I hear the loudest are described above.
Good for me, bad for them. Less competition for the jobs I want in Utah. In other words quality jobs are in scarce supply and the fewer qualified
persons there are then the more likely it will be to land a job in that
industry. Supply and demand economics, do your thing!
**'Education is key to easing poverty' - Deseret News editorial - 08/23/09And yet:**'Utah Legislature: Lawmaker proposes ending
affirmative action in higher education' - By Josh Smith - DSNews - 02/12/10"Rep. Curtis Oda, R-Clearfield, is proposing legislation that would
forbid state agencies, contractors, universities and colleges from providing
preference based on race or sex."While:**'Study:
African Americans Paid Significantly Less Than Whites' - By Boyce Watkins, PhD -
Aug 3rd 2010 Education is key to promote financial gain by the 1)
Person 2) Family 3) State and 4)... country. Would you
like to see what happens to people who work AGAINST education?
**'Backers of proposed Utah affirmative action amendment don't show' - By Lisa
Riley Roche, Deseret News - 12/03/10 "SALT LAKE CITY Members of
the Utah Constitutional Revision Commission were irked Thursday when backers of
a proposed amendment to end affirmative action in the state didn't bother to
Its very hard to believe the words of the people in government and business that
have done so much to demean and diminish public education.Conservatives chide liberals for buying votes be giving service to voters.
The other side of the coin shows that conservatives buy votes in the same manner
by promising service to the voters, but then they never deliver.
well said toosmartforyou, sadly it will fall on mostly deaf ears.
I think that more students are paying a bit more attention to how much student
debt they want to incur, since thank goodness they may no longer write it off in
bankruptcy. Its a wise choice to not go for a degree and incur debt if you
really aren't going to work long enough to pay the debt back (ie the MRS Degree
Education and economics go hand in hand. If you do the research you will find
out that in the current market the pay gap received by high school grads vs
college grads has closed dramatically. Even state jobs in Utah which require
degrees are now below market in pay and have no significant benefits to make up
the difference. It is a serious decision for todays student to make. Whether the
economic debt of college out weighs just diving into the job market. Good luck
With a BA and low GPA you qualify to flip burgers, sell cars and perhaps real
Re: Wayne Rout" If fewer people are no longer wasting their parent's
money in the study of music, ceramics, or philosophy it is a good thing. We need
graduates in technical areas. Young people continue to confuse hobbies with
careers. We need graduates in career fields. If someone graduates and they don't
have an employable skills they have not accomplished much in terms of their
worth to society."The ability to think critically (philosophy)
is certainly an employable skill and one many employers wish they saw more of
among their employees. The advancement in the arts (music, literature, and yes
ceramics) has always been a precursor to advancement in sciences throughout the
history of humanity. It is an unfortunate common complaint by the
"football is king" (a rather vocal group of people in Mr. Rout's home
of Texas) community that the arts have no place in society and are a waste of
time and money. Nothing could be further from the truth. Surprising that a man from the border town of El Paso, TX would be critical of
Hispanic Studies as it would certainly include a rich study of his home culture.
Then again, maybe it isn't surprising.
While there are notable exceptions, such as professional athletes or one who
invented a great item such as some popular social media, the averages are that
an educated person makes more money than one who is ignorant and the higher
level of education generally equals a higher level of compensation.Once I knew a young lady who refused to go to college because her sister
"had a degree in education and worked for the phone company." What
she failed to realize is that her sister supervised 34 employees and that a
4-year degree in anything was a requirement for the position. I told her one
couldn't major in "phone company" but the effort to obtain a degree
was something the phone company found to be of value when hiring their
employees.The greatest benefit of education is that it trains the
mind to be flexible and adapt and learn a new skill in a new situation, getting
away from the "assembly line" mentality of being able to only do one
thing (however well) forever. Like anything that is consumed,
choosing where, when and how to become educated requires skill, guidance and a
Degrees in Art History,Hispanic Studies, and similiar fields are largely
worthless. There was a time when universities tried to help young people
achieve skills that would help them in the real world. Now, many of the
graduates are largely unemployable. If fewer people are no longer wasting
their parents money in the study of music, ceramics, or philosophy it is a good
thing. We need graduates in technical areas. Young people continue to confuse
hobbies with careers. We need graduates in career fields. If someone
graduates and they don't have an employable skills they have not accomplished
much in terms of their worth to society.
It is Utah women who are not keeping up with the educational attainment of their
national counterparts. Utah men still far out rank U.S. men in obtaining college
degrees. In Utah, where once women were better educated than U.S. women in
general, we now maintain a smaller share of college-educated women than the
national average. Moreover, Utah shows, by far, the largest gap between the
share of college-educated men and college-educated women of any state in the
The degrees that have high earning potential go to considerable lengths to 'weed
people out' and the remaining degrees leave students with a load of debt and
either no job or a job which pays no better than a job they could have obtained
with a high school diploma. We need less of our rigid institutional higher
education and more education which gives everyone willing to obtain marketable
skills easy access to the training and testing to be certified with those
skills. Modern media should make that incredibly easy but we still insist on
people jump through the artificial hoops of higher education-thus lining the
pockets of a few PhD's at the expense of society.
Education and economics have no correlation, except getting federal education
funds for their state budget and excessive debt with legalized loan sharking by
local banks and education departments. The economic loss is in the
debt and federal funding they lose with fewer students in the schools. Its time
that education start living in their budget just like all the other government
agency's. This may be a precursory to raising taxes for education again this
year to sustain an image and lifestyle of wealth.As far as job
economics that is irrelevent to amount of education. Education is out to make
money and force indentured servitude lasting up to 20 years for potential
students. Debt is a major roadblock to getting an eduction in Utah where
education is not a job benefit as thousands have learned.We would
have the truth in education if you take the billion dollar financial benefits
out of their claims and statistics.