Zoar63. Read the Preface of the King James Version of the Holy Bible.
That's how a book starts and sets its self up by the way. Remember 2 more
Books in the Catholic Bible then in the King James Bible. They cover about 500
years of History discarded by the Men who put the King James Bible together.
Canonization or Cannibalization depending on how you look at it. Evan by their own admission they do not claim to be perfect. However they also
said it was the very best that they could do.Now you take that and
open it to century's of of slight change here and there, things in and out
here and there. Bias, Politics and Urban and Rural Myth. Then you
get it on press and opened and read by common man, some of whom are kind of dumb
but have a certain ability to attract followers who do not read (they get lost
in the thee, thous and begats) but do carry and wave and pass judgement mostly
on each other.Plus Paid Jobs in Religion which creates confusion,
and we all know whom is the master of Confusion ,
I am a Mormon and I am a Christian end of story.If I say I am a
Christian and you tell me I am Not, I am going to ignore you, because pretty
much your kind of dumb.If I am a Mormon, TR Holder or Not I have to
have a basic belief in the Tenets of the faith and to an extent (free agency)
keep them. Since I am a fairly simple person the Articles Of Faith are what I
mostly adhere to. The Articles of Faith are in the Standard Works
along with Declaration 1 and 2, I have read the Standard Works Completely at
least twice and some parts many times.My favorites are 3 Nephi Chapter 17 verses
6-8. 3 Nephi Chapters 11-25 and Moroni Chapter 10 verses 32-34. Of course I did
cry when the news of Declaration 2 came out. Just pulled over and wept because I
knew form that moment the World would never be the same. It took 10 more years
to become a member, wounds dry and heal slow. However two young men knocked on
my door one day, and I let them in.
Of course Coffee and Tea, or Caffeine at all (Caffeine is a Drug and is a mild
stimulant that can become in some people a depressant and for some Caffeine is
the Gate Way TO Sin. Of course No Tea or Coffee should be 100% for
TR Holders as that is part of that program.Sex between unmarried
adults of any age is considered wrong and Sex between people who might be other
then Heterosexual, Married or Not is considered wrong.Evan I am not
sure on the Churches Stand on Non Reproductive Positioning between Married
Adults.Some would say that if a marriage was a Temple Marriage and
there was a Divorce that there would have to be a Temple Divorce and if there
was a remarriage without a Temple Divorce that is wrong. Remarriage in the
Temple with out a Temple Divorce other then to the same person you where married
to the first time would be questionable. In the end do not be judgmental God
will sort things out. It will all be find in the end. There are most likely
Millions of Earth Like Planets throughout the Cosmos, we are finding more and
more each day.
I am shocked and outraged to find out that according to this Survey more so
called Mormons (I Believe Temple Recommend Holders need to be separate from
other Mormons when considering the general point of view of Mormons).I Believe
that Sex between unmarried adults (if you ask them what they think an unmarried
adult is they would mostly say a young adult) Many think that after 30 or a
Divorce you can go Rut). is wrong and slightly fewer think that Abortion (which
is 1st Degree Murder) is wrong. Its kind of like the R Rated Movie
is okay if its Violent but not if there is Nudity in it.I expected
the Sex or lack there of to be agreed one by most. However Not Abortion. The LDS
Church stands firmly against both and both can result in Church Punishment.
However you are not going to get Xconned for going to an R Rated Movie. Evan
Hard R.The Church is huge on Free Agency one of the reason I became
and remain a member. Of course I Do Not See why anyone is hanging
around if they don't believe the Joseph Smith Story.
Fascinating story....the only sad thing was the statistic that most Utah members
of the Church don't have many friends outside the faith. I think both
members and nonmembers would benefit by a change in that statistic.
As a Latter-Day Saint I found this survey interesting and encouraging.The only irksome point for me was that the "immigration" issue was not
differentiated,it seemed that only immigration, and not illegal
immigration, was considered.If members of "the Church" were
questioned about illegal immigration specificallyI think far different
responses would have resulted.
If historic Christians believe the bible is all they need to be saved then why
are there so many Christian dominations in the world? It is obvious that even
though they believe in the bible that there are differences in interpreting its
meaning. If that was not the case then the Catholic church would be the only
Christian church in existence today and there would have been no reformation; no
need for Martin Luther, John Wesley and others like them. How can the bible be
the undisputed word of God and at the same time create so many different
I know it's true because my heart feels good when I think about it.
Interesting results and worth many discussions. It is always intriguing to read
more the similarities and difference that exist between Christianity and
It is difficult to quantify faith. At least taking a stab at it has shown trends
only to the LDS religion that seems to be attracting a lot of attention (and
will likely continue to do so). All of you "good Mormons" know who
you are. Don't take this survey too seriously with a huge population and such a
miniscule number of people surveyed.**Politics are showing that LDS
candidates are patriotic as well as imperfect and human. Hopefully that can
help shed the taboo on our religion as being weird or cult-like.
To Dennis 7:39 - I assume LetsDebate has either run out of posts, or feels that
your claim is far too ludicrous to warrant a response. As a lifetime member, I
can assure you that I have heard those doctrines taught, week after week, in
every meeting in the Church. I very much doubt that you have ever
attended an LDS congregation where these ideas were rejected as fiction, or that
you ever taught that these ideas are fiction without being chastised by your
local leaders. These ideas are found throughout our manuals, incorporated into
General Conference talks, and have been taught by LDS leaders from the inception
of the Church.
To Gemini and sharrona - your "scholarly" and mechanical approach to
proving things of faith and spirit prove two things. One - your beliefs can be
supported by Biblical scripture. Two - your interpretation of the scriptures is
merely different than mine. I have also used scriptures to support
my beliefs, which proves two things. One - LDS beliefs indeed can be supported
by Biblical scripture. Two - LDS interpretation of the scriptures is different
than yours.I choose not to believe your interpretations of the
scriptures, and you choose not to believe mine. Neither of us can
"prove" anything to the other, but we have been given a method to
prove spiritual things to ourselves. I have availed myself of that method. I
don't know if you have, but if so, we have clearly come to different
conclusions. I don't claim to know why.You haven't explained why
Jesus felt it was so important to characterize our relationship to God in terms
like son, daughter, child, parent, Father, yet as His offspring we do not have
the potential to become like unto the parent - as every other offspring is
capable in this symbolic world created for us by our Father.
The survey published January 11, Mormons in America, is a masterpiece of puffed
figures rivaled only by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics' reports on
employment. If the figures printed are correct, the response group can not be a
cross section of LDS members. Any member of a bishopric or stake presidency
knows these figures are far from accurate. The average number of members who pay
tithing is about 10-12 percent, occasionally hitting a little higher. The 79
percent figure is totally false and impossible. The figure for those who attend
weekly at 77 percent is likewise incorrect. Average attendance is about 42
percent, according to the last figures. Only about 35 percent of members attend
regularly and the remaining majority are inactive. The results in this survey
obviously come from a hand-picked group of only very active members and not
random members at large. The gross errors in these two responses, and other
wrong results shown, cast fatal doubt on the credibility of the rest of survey.
This is good propaganda for the Church, but it is misleading and untrue. Shame
@DSB: Jesus lives forever he has the permanent (non-transmittable Melchchisedek)
priesthood.(Hebrews 7:24 NIV ).Priesthood authority,In(D&C 110:
1-16) Elias and Elijah appear to JS, but in the Bible they are the same person.
The KJV translators attempted to transliterate Elijah to Elias because there
isnt a Greek character for the English letter J.To avoid
confusion[like JS],modern translations: NIV, NJKV, NASB and the Catholic Bible
have Elijah instead of Elias in(Mt 11:14,; Luke 1:17).Melchisedec,
Do Mormons meet the Qualifications of Hebrews 7:2-3,To whom also Abraham gave a
tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and
after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without
mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but
made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Jesus =
Melchizedek, no, genealogy traceable as with Levite priests, a priest. Christs
non-Levitical descent. Biblical types are a form of prophecy.John
1:12 Greek N.T.,...to those who believed in his name he gave the Authority to
become children of God.
re: LetsDebateAll the points you mention are fiction. Why do you live a
life believing in Doctrines the Church doesn't even support? You're making
things up for the sake of argument. I taught Church classes for 15 years and
wouldn't publicly say a one of your "facts" "truths" out
@ Gemini: You reference things that are not considered canonized scripture in
the LDS faith (the Journal of Discourses, for example).Latter-day
Saints are accountable to believe as doctrine things that are in our canonized
sciptures (the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the
Pearl of Great Price). We also believe that we are accountable to believe
things that are issued formally in a unanimous statement by the current First
Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles. There is no need
to throw at us statements of individual church leaders that haven't gone through
the process of canonization or that do not go through the modern process of
editing and unanimous issuance through proper Church authorities. We keep
telling people that we are simply not accountable to accept those things, and we
are constantly told by anti-Mormons that we must we must we must. Check D and C
section 107 for a more detailed description of how authorized statements in the
Church are issued.Sorry you left the Church before you understood
@sharrona - do you know what a son is? It's offspring with the potential to
become like its parent. Apparently LDS believe the scriptures more literally
than even you. We are gods like a tadpole is a frog. Through faith, we
continue to progress, and with eternity on our side, as children we may become
like our parents.Hebrews 7:27 says nothing about doing away with the
office of High Priest. Was Jesus a different and perfect kind of High Priest?
Of course. Just as the scripture says, he doesn't need to account for personal
sins before using his office to minister to others. We do, and that's all the
scripture teaches.Again - the Bible does not contradict our beliefs.
Your interpretation is merely different.
11- The Bible never refers to the Garden, sweat or drops of blood as having
accomplished the transaction that could purchase us back. The atonement of
Christ was only accomplished on the Cross of Calvary, in its pages. That's why
Christians only focus on His great sacrifice that God the Father accepted. It
is always "the precious Blood of Christ shed on the Cross", the
sacrifice of the Lamb. Hebrews 10:10- "By that will we have been
sanctified through the offering of the Body of Jesus Christ once for
all."What Paul didn't know was any doctrine of the garden.
"For I boast in the cross of Christ.""...and that He
might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting
to death the enmity." (Eph. 2:16) "For Christ did not
send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the
Cross of Christ be made of no effect. For the message of the Cross is
foolishness to those who are perishing...but we preach Christ crucified."
(1Cor.1:18-25)12- Believers will be joint-heirs through their
adoption as sons to God. He alone reigns.
(cont.):8- Jesus taught about the burning hell of sulfur and
endless pain. I assume the point was that Mormonism does not teach of this
hell. It has been totally redefined, hasn't it?9- If Jesus
fulfilled the Law, why do you need temples? Marriage was always an open,
community celebration in Jesus' time. All LDS commentary refer to the
continuation of God's temples from "ancient times". Unless you are
performing sacrifices in them, they have no Biblical comparison. They are
beautiful edifices and Mormons have always honored the sanctity of marriage.
They're just not Biblical.10- Outline Hebrews, not half of a
sentence that refers to past High Priests. That IS his point, only one at a
time is in that office- Heb.5:1-3. Only God calls the High Priest, as He did
Aaron, and only from the tribe of Levi. Christ was from Judah and had a unique
priesthood. Only one High Priest goes into the Holy of Holies. Our great
priest also became the sacrifice."... after He had offered one
sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God," 10:12.
"It is finished." No more needed. (8:23-25)
(continued):5- Yes, LDS believe the Bible is scripture. But they do
not believe, and never have, that it is a totally trustworthy document. The JST
and all your leaders have made it abundantly plain exactly what they think of
its veracity and reliability. Your comment also shows what you think of the
Bible in its present form. Quoting it does not mean that you accept all of it,
as traditional Christians do. You mocked its "history,creation and
translation" with your "in its current form". This places you
squarely outside of all traditional scholarship. But no one can even post any
criticism of how you got the JST here.6- The Bible contains the
history of man from Adam to the Apostle John, circa 90 AD. Everything in the
Bible, from all 40 authors over the span of 1,500 years, gives implicit
instructions on this. Deuteronomy and Revelation both say what will happen to
those who "add to the words of this book." 7- God
condemned polygamy in Deut. 17:17 and to deacons in 1Tim.3:12. The BoM condemns
it. Every polygamous relationship was fraught with jealousy and consequences.
LetsDebate, we all want the same thing in terms of truth, right? Then read the
Bible without any other commentaries and you will find the answers to the
questions. Asking someone if they "have the slightest idea" about the
creation of the Bible is rude and presumptive.1- The blood covers
all sin that is committed by those who call upon His Name, except for the
unforgivable sin, as you say. Do you know which sins your founders said were
not covered by the blood of Christ? The Journal of Discourses was reviewed and
authorized by Brigham Young himself, sent overseas with missionaries, and never
edited as otherwise. "Know Your Religion" was a very popular series
in the Church. Knowing your early Mormonism is a must.2&4- If
Jesus existed before any other created thing, where did all those
"councils" come from in His pre-existent state when Father chose Him
over Satan? Your doctrines have changed since 1830.3- Jesus
created Lucifer and all the angels. Isaiah has no validation of this. He is
referring to the son of the dawn/Morning. Reference the Hebrew.5-
The Psalms alone have many references to His Word as truth.
NY Times editorial "Mitt's Big Love" trots out the usual tired
anti-Mormon innuendoes; that Romney somehow endorses polygamy, nonconfirmable
allegations by former congregants, that because of his religion there are
sinister secrets unknowable to the electorate.
@LetsDebate: 12- Can man progress to godhood?No, John 10:34, Ye ARE gods?
Present tense, not even Mormon men believe they a are gods right now. James
Talmage in Jesus the Christ p.501, explains Psalm 82:6,Divenly Appointed judges
called gods. Men who have been appointed judges. Romans 8:16-17. See v.15
but ye have received the Spirit of Adoption, Abba, Father. Gal 3:26,You are
sons of God through faith.10- Who is our final High Priest, the
office now void?(filled by Jesus) See Hebrews 5:1. See Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the
other high priests, he doesn't have to offer sacrifices for his own sins every
day before he can get around to us and our sins. He's done it, once and for all:
offered up himself as the sacrifice.The Aaronic or Levitical priesthood
ended with the death of Christ. The entire function ,and the term Cohen means,
one who stands up for another, and mediate the cause. Before the Great Sacrifice
,the priest had to stand in for the people and offer animal sacrifices. Do
Mormons still carry out this function. No! Therefore their office is
Thank you for answering the 12 questions. They're ones I was asked when I came
calling to prove the same position that you are. I was tired of being called
cultish, wierd and unbiblical. I didn't really care what they believed, I just
wanted to make sure that my friends truly understood my LDS beliefs.I was pioneer ancestor Mormon, seminary, BYU, temple-married, taught
everything and in every presidency. I was a devout Christian and was through
with the sneers about my temple vows and inpenetrable testimony. My friends
were Ann Madsen, Dr. Cleon Skousen; I chatted with Dr. Nibley and taught Hebrew
after taking it with Ann.I answered every question as you did and
asked dear Dr. Barshaw why evangelicals could not see that our doctrinal
differences did not put us outside the pale of Christian orthodoxy. He sent me
to a 6-wk seminary-taught "Fundamentals of the Faith" class and I dug
in to my Bible to see how serious our differences were.I realized
that we did have "another Jesus and another gospel" than the one Paul
spoke of (2 Cor11). Your answers prove it. I've been praying for my brethren
A few more answers to OnlyTheCross:7- Was polygamy ever commanded by
God to the ancient patriarchs? Show me where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -
fully supported by God in the Old Testament - were ever condemned in the Bible
for their multiple wives.8- Did Jesus teach about hell? Many
times - what's your point?9- Were marriages ever performed in
Israel's temples? Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses - why would our
rituals be identical to those of ancient Israel?10- Who is our final
High Priest, the office now void? See Hebrews 5:1. Apparently Paul wasn't
aware that the office was void.11- Do Jesus' Apostles speak of the
power of the Garden or the Cross? Why did Jesus spill great drops of blood
in the Garden? LDS emphasize the Garden AND the Cross. Not sure why you would
focus on only one.12- Can man progress to godhood? See John
10:34, and Romans 8:16-17.I hope this helps you understand that LDS
believe we are fully supported by Biblical scripture. Clearly, our
interpretation differs from yours, but there is nothing in our doctrine that is
indisputably contradicted by the Bible.
To OnlyTheCross - a few answers:1- Does the blood of Jesus Christ
cover all sins? All who repent and believe in Him. See John 3:16.2- Did Jesus exist before any angels or the Cosmos? Yes. See John
1:1-2, and D&C 76:39 for LDS concurrence.3- Is Jesus Michael the
Arch-Angel (NO), or the spirit-brother of Lucifer, or any other heavenly
creation? See Isaiah 14:21 - whose son is the Son of the Morning? If God,
and Jesus is also the son of God, then...4- Did Jesus create the
angels, or were they in Father's Kingdom before him? See answer to #2
above.5- Is the Bible God's infallable Word of truth? Does
the Bible make this claim? Do you have the slightest idea about the history,
creation, and translation of our current Bible? LDS certainly believe the Bible
as scripture, and quote it frequently.6- Does the Bible contain all
the information necessary to get you back in God's presence? Where does
the Bible make this claim? By what Biblical authority to you limit God's
scriptural communication with man?To be continued...
Lots of problems with such extensive surveys. Terminology alone from one faith
to another skews the results.Example - Can women have the
Priesthood? Well, can I use another faith's definition of Priesthood?...since
Mormon Women give prayers, discourses, and sermons to congregations, perform
ordinances in eternal temple ordinances and fulfill leadership positions by
being "set apart" by the laying on of hands under the direction of the
Priesthood?Example - Believe in Prophets? What is your definition of
a Prophet? I may believe in modern revelation through Prophets but not in
perfect beings that can't utter a word unless it's from God.
@OnlyTheCross"Here's a poll Pew should have used that will
define whether one holds to traditional Christian teachings; from the pure
Biblical text, sans any denominational or ecumenical bent. "Uh
huh... it may not have a particular denominational bent to it but it's clearly a
hand-selected set of questions with a designed purpose in mind. So yeah... no
unclear intent... your intent is quite clear.
In terms of Mormons as Democrats and Republicans, in 1900, Utah was the most
socialist state in the Union. The bishop of the Eureka ward at that time said
that he thought that socialism was the order of God.I try to vote
Democrat because of the importance that my religion places on helping the poor.
But then once, I voted for a Democratic state senator and I voted to rescind
sales tax on food, and the same state senator said at a pro-abortion rally a few
weeks late with the ACLU that the Utah state legislators are letting their
religion affect their votes and that is wrong.So I took his advice
to heart and didn't vote for him again.But I am still a closet
@CT98 I can't believe that 45% reported that "Living a Very Religious
Life" is not one of the most important priorities in life. That is
shocking, and quite sad. I thought that was the Essense of the Gospel of Jesus
Christ.....to follow Him. Wine was used by: Noah Gen 9:20,21; Melchizedek
Gen 14:18; Isaac Gen 27:25; Jesus John: 2: 1-11; Timothy 1Tim 5:23 : the
Apostles Acts 2:13. You could not follow Jesus today,he does not qualify for a
AofOrion, that is correct, sorta. We're not told why there is an ungorgivable
sin. But we are told that the blood of the Lamb is the covering/propitiation
for our sins. "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering
of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering He has prrfected
forall time thise who are perfected.". (Heb.10:10,14))Adultery
or murder aren't singled out in the Bible. The founders taught, which sins
would never be covered by Christ's blood, and that a man or woman guilty of this
had to "spill their own blood." (JDisc) You'll find this was taught
clear through to my days in the late '70's. McKonkie's "Mormon
Doctrine" still taught it, my BYU profs, my folks and grandfolks and I
did, too. But those were the days when we quoted our prophets.Orion
is the greatest constellation. Or is Light in Hebrew, and Orion means Gloriouss
One Coming. Job 38:31: "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose
the cords of Orion?" (Amos 5:8). I know we share this belief and hope,
that Jesus will return in Glory and Splendor.
OnlytheCross I should hope your answer to #1 is. That it covers all sins but one
since Christ Himself said that there was one unforgivable sin and that was
sinning against the Holy Ghost.
* "But they remain optimistic, with 63 percent expressing the belief that
Mormonism will eventually become part of mainstream society" *That's optimistic???
Here's a poll Pew should have used that will define whether one holds to
traditional Christian teachings; from the pure Biblical text, sans any
denominational or ecumenical bent. We give it to our "Fundamentals of the
Faith" and "What does the Bible Say" classes, from a
traditional, evangelical church that predates to the apostolic era). No unclear
intent, just Biblical text. Refs to follow.1- Does the blood of
Jesus Christ cover all sins?2- Did Jesus exist before any angels or the
Cosmos?3- Is Jesus Michael the Arch-Angel, or the spirit-brother of
Lucifer, or any other heavenly creation?4- Did Jesus create the angels,
or were they in Father's Kingdom before him?5- Is the Bible God's
infallable Word of truth?6- Does the Bible contain all the information
necessary to get you back in God's presence?7- Was polygamy ever
commanded by God to the ancient patriarchs?8- Did Jesus teach about
hell?9- Were marriages ever performed in Israel's temples?10- Who
is our final High Priest, the office now void? 11- Do Jesus' Apostles
speak of the power of the Garden or the Cross?12- Can man progress to
I have seen another poll, looked for an hour for it and can't find it, but it
listed LDS belief in reincarnation at 1 or 2 percent and at that time I went
wow, thinking, really, that many LDS believe that? I wonder if
someone was off a decimal point? 1.1%?
A couple of thoughts.I question the competency of a scientific
statistician who thinks that, with 2% of the population being LDS, you would
have to call 98 people to contact a Mormon. Does that mean that if we were 50%,
you wouldn't reach one until you called 50? Think about it.Also,
all of you who are so shocked that any LDS person could believe in
reincarnation, consider that many of our early leaders taught the principle of
eternal progression of ALL beings and elements, including the potential for
progressing into higher eternal kingdoms and the progression of non-human
entities. Many believe in "ladders" between kingdoms. Combine that
with the doctrine from D&C 76 that exaltation only occurs after overcoming
all by faith. How do you suppose that intelligence overcomes all by
faith, except they be placed into a veiled realm to be tried and tested? I don't
claim to know how it works, but I wouldn't totally reject the possibility that
some type of reincarnation may be the way.And I'm totally in. I'm a
believer. So, don't close your mind so quickly about what "good
members" are not allowed to believe.
@John Pack Lambert"I am a little surprised that the believe the Book
of Mormon was written by ancient prophets is only 91%."The
church does include some percentage of people who grew up in the church and
perhaps just stay in it because their parents, family, or spouse are in it.
Cultural mormons I guess. Then maybe a few got confused and assumed the correct
answer was Joseph Smith. So I'm not too surprised that it's 91%. If you asked me
6 months ago I would have qualified for this survey as an inactive LDS member (I
would've still self-identified that way) who did not believe the Book of Mormon
was written by ancient prophets. @wjutjck"Active members
of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints would never think that the
church teaches Reincarnation. "Surveys have found that half of
catholics don't even know their own doctrine of transubstantiation when given a
multiple choice set of options to pick from. I think some proportion of the 11%
confused reincarnation with ressurection since to some extent they are kind of
image versus actions
I can't believe that 45% reported that "Living a Very Religious Life"
is not one of the most important priorities in life. That is shocking, and
quite sad. I thought that was the Essense of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.....to
follow Him. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the survey but I would think
that any Christian who professes faith in Christ would say that following the
Commandments and Teachings of Christ would be the number 1 priority in life. If
you strive to live the Gospel Every Day, you will be a loving parent, spouse,
If you all would see that the covered group were not necessarily members of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the PEW group didn't break out
correctly what the LDS or Mormon means. Go to page 70 of the actual report and
see how they came up with the identification of Mormons. With as many people in
this study that are senior researchers and researchers, why would they make this
mistake. They go to the youngest of adults for the person they want to talk to
them. Then look at how they broke out people as Mormons. If they have
identified Mormons incorrectly, that is why some of the data does not appear to
be what you would believe. The data can be skewed, completely even with their
verification process. Their format may have been set up correctly but if their
audience is not what they say it is, then why are they really doing this report
in rapid time and with such a small 1019 people that they misidentified. It
seems like someone should call PEW on this apparent error.
way to reinforce every negative stereotype of judgmental mormons in just two
For those(Mormons) who don't believe in the Book of Mormon or that Thomas S
Monson is God's prophet on the earth today, I can see why their beliefs don't
fall in line with what active members believe. Reincarnation is one of those
false teachings of the adversary.
Active members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints would never
think that the church teaches Reincarnation. It is my assumption that the 11
percent who claim to believe in reincarnation are not active members of the
The percentage of Mormons who are white is lower than in previous studies. This study still excludes people who do not have any phones at all. At
least some of the Hispanics and African Americans baptized in my mission had no
phones. Thus these race figures only can be given full meaning in comparison to
an overall sample.The use of people found in previous surveys also
probably reduces the percentage of non-white Mormons. This would to some extent
lock in the statistics as they were at the older studies and exclude more recent
immigrants or people who have joined the Church since that time. In my ward of
the people who have joined the Church in the last year and still regularly come
out, only 1 of the 5 is white, the others are 2 African-Americans, 1 immigrant
from Congo and 1 international student from Vietnam. Thus I have at least
limited evidence that back sampling the way this survey does undercounts the
number of non-white Mormons.
I wonder at that number for being raised in the church. I recently was at a
stake conference (visiting & outside of Utah) where one of the visiting
authorities asked those who were converts to stand and those standing were at
least half of the congregation. Furthermore in my own ward, there are only a
handful who can trace their membership back to the early years of the church and
only two who have intimate family experience with early church leaders. I
recognize that being raised in the church is reflective of only one generation
but that number also does not seem to jibe with the growth of the church in the
USA over the last 30 years.I think this attempt to poll mormons
about mormons is very much a good thing. It provides a window thru which we can
view ourselves without the personal failings distortions that creep into our
psyche when peering into a mirror.
I am shocked the figure on viewing sex between unmarried adults is only 79%. I
think it gives the lie to many of the enemies of the Church that this is a lower
figure than those who believe polygamy is morally wrong.I am a
little surprised that the believe the Book of Mormon was written by ancient
prophets is only 91%. It should be remembered that the people in this survey
self identified as being Mormons. It does not include people who are baptized
members of the Church but do not identify as being Mormons. Some of the latter
people may even be among those who show up at church but they would not show up
in this study.
The survey was a good reflection of "active" LDS (70% tithe payers as
an example). The term "immigrant" is so loaded here that
it is meaningless. I think to Mormons it means: 1. Mexican
2. Illegal Mexican immigrant 3. Legal Mexican immigrant 4.
Children of one of the aboveHere in Utah the debate about
immigration is toxic. The Church has given direction (although a little vague).
But Mormons, being hugely right wing here, are openly accepting of Mexicans and
Mexican-Americans but very mean about them behind their backs and in providing
To try to sum up the context of my last post, whether someone views something as
essential or not is different than whether they would do it. This
is also not the same thing as asking point blank "is someone who drinks
coffee and tea a good Mormon". The wording of questions will matter and so
people should avoid drawing too broad conclusions.Does this study
include Mormons of all ages, or only over a certain age? I know a past Pew
study only included adults. That would matter. This is especially true since I
know from personal expeirence many non "white" Mormons are under the
age of 18. In my homeward one of the 3 families with six minor children is made
up of a euro-American father and a Korean-American mother (her family moved to
the US when she was little). At another point all the African
Americans in my ward were under the age of 12, all adopted children in white
families (I think we had 4). I have also known several Mormon children adopted
from Korea, India and China by white parents.
This article and its posts continue to verify why my husband, friends and I
continue to teach about and "witness" to Mormons, for the past 21
years to the present.Our classes at local churches are always full.
We show videos from all perspectives, have missionaries and LDS leaders share,
hear from former members, offer BoMs and Church materials, and leave an open
invitation for all to participate. There is nothing close to our full
perspective study being offered in the LDS community, but we continue to share
the truth with our community and hold all to high standards of accuracy. Our
goal is to clear up misconceptions on both sides, and form a stronger bond
within our community.I agree that the poll should revise, clarify
and deepen their study questions if they want to do full service in showing a
multi-faceted people. But I was glad that it did reflect the true
compassionate, humanitarian and community traits of my ancestoral people. On the religion questions, however, both sides showed the lack of
knowledge about historical, traditional Christianity and true Biblical exegesis.
Every Mormon prophet has denied holding to the "traditional" Christ,
including President Monson. Definitions needed.
I get the feel that the results are being spun in ways that just do not work.
"Not drinking coffee and tea" is not the same as "not drinking
caffine". They should also be more clear on whether the
question involved specifically listing certain things and asking if the people
thought they were "essential to being a good Mormon" or if the
question was to ask "what is essential to being a good Mormon" and
then try to quantify the open responses.Another question is, were
people able to agree that all listed characteristics were essential to being a
good Mormon. Were they given a list and told to mark those that were essential,
or were they asked specifically if each of these were essential. The difference
between the latter two approachs is very important.If people have to
decide on each thing being "essential" it is more likely that more
items will be included. In that case the effort to mark 1 thing as essential is
that same as 2. If however people have to chose to mark a second item as
essential that it takes more effort, and thus means different things.
I always thought that being a good Latter-day Saint meant keeping the
commandments of God. Everything else is secondary.
@morganh, I thought this survey was quite interesting as a practicing member of
the LDS faith. The reason people who are not members don't regard us a
Christians is because they don't take time to examine the beliefs.A
few years back FAIR took a survey of Christians Pastors in Utah and Ca. a heavy
majority considered Mormons non-Christian.@91 percent believe that
the Book of Mormon was written by ancient prophets.The Articles of Faith,
the original Edition,#8 We believe in the Word of God recorded in the Bible; we
also believe the Word of God recorded in the Book of Mormon, and in all other
good books. Check #8 current edition.
ContinuedThe other groups listed, if classified as Mormons, would or
could have skewed the information that Pew was putting out. It seems as if
their various processes as described in their organization's website for the
foundation and forum was not followed as they would have found the difference in
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the others listed. LDS is
not defined in their study and that acronymn should have been. The term
"Mormon" is not the name of the Church, even though used by the Pew
people. There seems to be a reason this Pew study came out in the time span and
the rapidity that the information was published from the 1019 small sample
respondents, of which a large share could have been the other individual
religions. Reincarnation as described in some of the other comments
is not something that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recognizes
and 11 percent is out of the valid range for commenters. I don't
know if the Pew group is center of the line or not but the basic tenets of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may not be represented
When you read the article as extracted from the Pew Report, it is interesting to
see the methodology. First their premise was:"Respondents
reached by landline were selected by randomly asking forthe youngest adult
male or female currently at home. Interviews on cell phones were conducted with
the person who answered the phone, if that person was an adult 18 years of age
or older."Why would their clarify that question to the
youngest? That skews the information that they gathered. It was not clarified
in the process that it was the youngest person 18 or older they wanted to
interview."After identifying themselves as Mormons, qualified
respondents were asked a separate question, "And is that The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Community of Christ, or some other Mormon
church?" "All self-identified Mormons were eligible for
the survey, regardless of whether they identified themselves as part of the LDS
Church. In practice, nearly all self-identified Mormons (99% in the current
sample) describe themselves as part of the LDS Church." This
does not seem to be a valid survey as all they identified are not Mormons. The
survey's purpose is not complete.
@ Noodlekaboodle you need to do more research on charity vs government. It is
not necessarily governments obligation to be the welfare giver to all citizens.
Government is lousy at that. Churches, be they Mormon or other do a far better
job of this. They are local and they know what people in there area need,
whether it be helping with a funeral or assisting yard work or helping to care
for a sick member, etc. government will never be that efficient. Apparently you
don't watch the news during times of natural disaster or crisis. Faith
organizations are usually the first ones on the ground and with more manpower
than government muster. I would rather depend on the legions of volunteers over
tax dollars any day.
@ Expatriate, I'm not sure about your statement that your "grandfather's
Democrats used to be more like present day Republicans." The Democratic
Party of my grandfather had a strong union component, something that is
seriously lacking today. Today's Democratic Party is weaker on issues relating
to the common man than it used to be. The Democratic Party of the past pushed
what was considered radical stuff, like minimum wage, civil rights, cleaner
environment, etc. Today's Democratic Party is the only party with even a hint
of progress to it, but even it is watered down. This is likely due to the
massive influence of money in campaigns and special interests in Washington that
now rules more than ever before. The enemy of the people is not the Democratic
or Republican Parties, but wealthy special interests that are draining the
coffers of our government and getting special privileges. McCain is right when
he lambasted the Citizens United case. Pay heed, even you Republicans who are
willing to sleep with the devil to get ahead.
Wouldn't it be fun to watch if Harry Reid became Romney's home teacher or vice
It is rather apparent from several comments here that as normal many have no
idea about survey methodology- having read the full methodology section of the
report this was pretty solid survey work- an attempt at surveying such a small
population (Mormons are less than 2% of US population) and weighting it properly
is very tough and this one is well designed- limitations yes but given costs
well balanced and worthwhile results even if you do not like them they are
@Esquire and others: what about how my grandfather's Democrats used to be more
like present day Republicans? The parties have morphed big time, and nobody is
accounting for that. I also would like to know how PEW qualified participants,
but I suppose that is propietary information. Even so, this body of research
seems to be pretty fair, and so too are the comments, and THAT is a refreshing
departure from the usual bullying in these kinds of forums.
I thought this survey was quite interesting as a practicing member of the LDS
faith. The reason people who are not members don't regard us a Christians is
because they don't take time to examine the beliefs. Jesus Christ and his
teachings are core values in the LDS faith and that is what makes us Christians.
As a social conservative I also like the Republican Party's anti-abortion
pro-traditional marriage platform. I also do believe in smaller government
philosophy as well. Their are good LDS Democrats who have honorable and moral
values. The leaders of the Church will never endorse one party or the other.
The only council they give is to support people who represent your values you
have as a church member and my personal feeling is the Republican Party platform
supports those values.
@ Pugman, you reinforce the point that the Church is Republican, and you make
the assumption that the GOP is the party of the Church. Not true. There isa
strong argument that the reverse is true, that you cannot be a good Christian
(and I believe that Mormons are Christian) and be a Republican. Do your core
beliefs include free agency and personal responsibility? Or are you into the
GOP version of the nanny state where they tell you how to behave in all things?
Do you reject the statement of Joseph Smith of "teach correct principles
and let them govern themselves?" Republicans will say that they follow
this, but in reality they do not. And they do not follow the principles taught
by Christ of caring for all, instead preferring that it's everyone for himself.
Ayn Rand is the prophet of the GOP, not Christ or Smith or Monson. Look for
consistency, not for those on the right who say they are with Christ, yet their
hearts, actions and words are far from Him. Watching the Christian Right should
illuminate that principle, yet many of you get in bed with them. This should get some of you going....
I wonder if any of the Utah mormons in the poll answered honestly about what it
takes to be a "good" mormon and included being a member of the
Republican party. I am active LDS and am not a member of the Republican party
and have been slammed by many so called "good" mormons since I moved
to Utah that I can't be a good mormon if I am a Democrat.
A quick look at comments on this survey at fox news or cnn shows just how much
ignorance and misinformation and bigotry there is regarding Mormons. It's
astounding.Too many people forget the admonition that "by their
fruits you shall know them." That's the bottom line, after all.
@DN SubscriberIt's not like this is the first such poll. Gallup had
a fairly broad poll on Mormons a few years ago. @Pugman"How so"Lookiing at the stats from a Gallup poll from
2010 you can see a similar result as this Pew study in terms of %activity (79
and 77%) but if you ran the numbers you'd find that LDS liberal activity rates
were down around 50%. As someone who was an LDS liberal (albeit I left the
church over doctrinal differences) there were definitely times where I felt
unwelcome or felt frustrated with church because of something political like a
member telling me that I'm going against the prophet because I supported
Obamacare, or someone telling me I was following "Satan's politics"
because of my view on gay marriage, or an institute instructor telling us that
the war in Iraq was a holy war against Islam and that we had to support it in
order to follow the prophet. (One might notice all these statements are false
seeing as the church doesn't dictate what political views you follow or else
they'd have to excommunicate most of Europe, but a lot of members still act that
Dnsubcriber: "Just remember, any Republican nominee of any faith will be a
better President than one who sat in the pews of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's church
for 20 years. " This statement stereotypes Mormons as better (or worse)
than Pew ever could. I would make a point of avoiding a person like you at all
costs on Sunday, even if it meant staying away from the ward.
This is what mormons say. Look at our mormon, republican legislator in Utah and
tell me that they care about the poor.......
Man, are we obsessed with what people think of us! Just go be a good neighbor,
live your faith and treat people with respect and kindness. It would be amazing
what people would think of you.
With over 5.5 million Latter-day Saints in this country alone, I am not sure how
indicative a sample of 1017 is, even with an 11% margin of error.
Romney bishopHuntsman first counselor
@Esquire"Over the long haul and in the big picture this hurts the
Church and the fullfillment of it's mission. How so...we all know through
prophets or we should know, the events that are unfolding and will continue to
unfold. As Latter Day Saints, and Christians we all should know how this ends. I
could be missing your point but are you trying to imply that we have to be more
tolerant of another political party and their agenda? What if this agenda is not
in harmony with my core beliefs or principles. I realize that my views are
totally my own, I will not try not to force them on anyone. That being said, I
hope no one tries to ram political correctness down my throat...I'm likely just
to throw it back up in your face.
@ DN Subscriber, are you kidding me? Pew left wing? I think not. And it
didn't take time for someone to use this as an excuse to bash President Obama.
It's getting old, dude.But what this study does show is that the
Church is a Republican one. Over the long haul and in the big picture, this
hurts the Church and the fulfillment of its mission. It already has, and as the
Church further grows and expands, this tight identification with one political
party will actually be a liability.
Why don't they look at using other forms of media? Such as FB? I know the church
can't give out ward and stake lists, but some simple FB queries could find
10,000 LDS rather than the 1100 or so poled here.
"Pew is a notoriously left wing entity"The term
"wing" is used far too often by both the left and the right.Everyone cannot be Left or Right Wing by definition.
"the study found that Church members subscribe to traditional Christian
beliefs, have high moral standards, are overwhelmingly satisfied with their
lives and communities, are active in serving others and have a profound
dedication to family. These results reflect the Church's message that a deep
commitment to the teachings of Jesus Christ brings lasting happiness."When all is said and done, regardless of your position on political or
social issues, I think (I hope) this is an accurate reflection of all
Mormons.Thanks for highlighting this study.
I was just wondering. When you live outside of Utah, how do you identify who
the inactive members are? The sweeping statements about who lives the
principles of the Gospel and who doesn't are really closed minded and unfair.
I would like to see PEW ask an honest question about immigration. Asking
questions that mix legal and illegal immigrants together is very deceptive, and
tries to influence the poll numbers. I for one, would like to see
the results when they are separated into two different questions.
Favorable to immigrants? Why wouldn't anyone be favorable to immigrants?Or
did they mean illegal immigration? I hate when the survey is not clear.
Sounds to me like Mormons are pretty nice people, whether I agree with them on
all the issues or not.
cknott, I'd like to hear what other Saints had to say, too. I have lived in
Utah, and while you can always find whatever you're looking for, I was surprised
that I found a lot less practicing of the principles I learned when I went
there, and so did others. I'm an Easterner by birth and we didn't have many
there but we really tried to do the best we could because we were often the only
LDS person our friends might ever meet! If they ever choose to repeat this study
I hope they just ask for a some stake directories and look some of us up!
Unless, of course, they check on who comments on DN....
Now lets get Romney in as President so people can really see how well Mormons
can lead yet be compassionate; mainstream yet bold. Youtube search
"Romney Man" for a light hearted political parody song in ghe style of
56 percent saying that the American people are ready for a Mormon president.Interesting how that poll figure matches the 56% who voted for the two
LDS candidates in NH the other day.
Some very surprising results actually! As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints living in Utah just recently I find these statistic
insightful and honest...especially about the lack of relevance and adherence to
the Word of Wisdom and indecent movies being permissible while still holding a
temple recommend. It bares out with my anecdotal experiences of living here in
Utah for the first time. I am curious to find out more about the saints living
outside of the US and outside of the west.I am glad I was notified about this
prior to hearing it on NPR tomorrow or perhaps Radio West (O wait never mind
it's favorable to the church, lol):) I must admit that this report was much
preferred to hearing ANYTHING about Jimmer what's his name and BYU sports
statistics ANY DAY as so called Breaking News!!! :)
I thought it was pretty fair. The only weird thing was 11% believing in
reincarnation. What's up with that?
Some interesting stuff. I'm going to guess the plus or minus on the margin of
error is right around 11%. Either that or 11% of Mormons don't know what the
word reincarnation means. Oh who cares resurrection/reincarnation it's almost
the same thing right?? (I'm just joking in case the sarcasm isn't coming
%DN Subscriper, The article was favorable to Mormons, what is your beef. It
seems some just have a knee jerk reaction to go on the defensive without cause.
When one receives a smile it is a good thing to smile back.
This was fascinating. I hope these findings will be a help to the Church.
Pew is a notoriously left wing entity. Their sudden interest in the beliefs of
the LDS faith surfaces just as a prominent member of that faith is close to
winning the Republican nomination for the Presidency.Coincidence? I
think not.And, I am sure the survey will be used to provide excuses
for members of other faiths to condemn Mormons, but most especially any Mormon
Presidential candidates, as some sort of evil cult members and all the other
slanderous nonsense that has been used against members of the LDS faith for
generations.People might wish that this were a straightforward
intellectually honest survey initiated with pure motives and no agenda. People
might also wish for unicorns leaping from rainbows, but reality is often
different than what we are told.Just remember, any Republican
nominee of any faith will be a better President than one who sat in the pews of
Rev. Jeremiah Wright's church for 20 years.