Forced Religion.Prayers in Schools. The Scriptures are the Supreme
law of the Land.Self perscribed Doing of God's Will.Taking upon
youself the Cleansing of "sin" from the Earth.The
"religious" right hate the Muslims for doing all this in the Middle
East, and beat the drums of war, committing OUR kids to go kill them into
accepting secularism....While advocting the very same thing in
the truthRE: lds4gaymarriageIn a truly free society, like one
where government does not dictate your life or schools,you would be
free to choose what school you send your children to,and local
communities would have schools they want,and you can choose to live
where people share your values, morals and even religion,so no one
would be forced to do anything.LDS4That world exists
today...It's called private schools..private neighborhoods, etc..with no
government funding. As long as the government is building schools, they have to
be theologically neutral. If we have vouchers, which I favor, then we can have
schools as we wish, provided that those schools educate kids to pass
RE: lds4gaymarriageIn a truly free society, like one where
government does not dictate your life or schools,you would be free
to choose what school you send your children to,and local
communities would have schools they want, and you can choose to live
where people share your values, morals and even religion,so no one
would be forced to do anything.Do you get it now?
Wally west: "Agreed. Atheists by its very definition don't believe in God.
Being irreligious mean you are against religion... obviously."While I agree with your first, I disagree with your last sentence in this
statement. One who is not religeous or an atheist doesnt at all mean their
against religion or want it gone, it simply means they dont believe it to be
true. I dont believe santa clause exists but im certainly not against him, I Get
my picture with his best impersonator every December.
re: pragmatistferlife | 11:41 a.m. Jan. 8, 2012 Agreed. Atheists by
its very definition don't believe in God. Being irreligious mean you are against
religion... obviously.They are very different concepts altogether.
Then, there are concepts like Deism.Can't remember where I read or
who said the following, but... "Morality is doing what is right
regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told regardless
of what is right."
A hundred years ago, people believed in witches and werewolves. As the
population progresses, and people become more educated, fairytales lose their
luster. Science takes over from paronoia, and superstition. The egyptians have
images in the pyramids of men with helmets on, and unusuall spacecraft.That was
thousands of years ago. Jesus it says in the bible, ascended in a blaze of
light. Maybe by spacecraft. Who is to say that the god you believe in, is in
fact, an alien. Just food for thought.
Let me correct one huge miscompetion (among many) the JCS has, and that is that
being non religious and atheism are the same thing. I would conceed that
someone who is using drugs and killing other human beings is probably not
religious..but that doesn't mean they don't believe in God. Atheists don't
believe in God and therefore very rarely are religious, but millions of people
believe in God and aren't reliegious (practice an organized religion). Personally having lived around the world I have found that people who
are avowed atheists are more consistenly moral and ethical. They have to be
because they are responsible for their own actions and can't explain away
actions to the influence of some form of magic.
JCS, you bemoan the fact that prayer and scripture reading are banned, but if it
were allowed, I bet Dearborn, Michigan with a LOT of Muslims, would have Koran
reading and prayers to Mecca everyday. How would YOU like your kids/grandkids
to live in Dearborn and be forced to do that everyday?What if your
grandkids lived in Bugtussel, Oklahoma? They wouldn't be reading a KJV Bible.
They'd be reading NIVs and learning Evangelical Protestantism.Parents shouldn't try to have the schools do those things that the parents
should be doing...teaching about religion, morals, etc...If you want this, then
don't complain when they teach Sex-Ed, etc...JCSAs for citing
the New England States as an example of goodness, that reference is ridiculous.
Those three states lead the nation in the attack against traditional marriageLDS4Because of their atheism, they require laws be based on
preventing objective harm rather than on subjective religious doctrine. There
is NO objective reason to outlaw same-sex marriage. Opposition is based only on
religion and the "ick factor". Christians are forbidden to use their
morals as justification to infringe upon the rights of others (1 Cor. 10:29).
re: Ranch | 6:47 p.m. Jan. 7, 2012 The proverbial reds are under his
@JCS"The liberals here ignore one crucial truth: although rates for
certain crimes can fluctuate, the overall crime rate is still at epidemic
levels. "You are conceding that crime rates are at least not
getting worse despite originally claiming that atheism (the fastest growing
religion in america) leads to higher crime rates. That's what I'm arguing and
you yourself just admitted it. If you want to argue that atheism
leads to more people doing things contrary to Christian rules my response is...
well of course... guess what, non-Jewish people have dramatically higher rates
of loving bacon too. When using your set of religious rules... any set of
religious rules, you can always condemn the groups that don't follow that set
because people don't follow optional sets of rules that they don't belong to.
Crime rates is a universal standard in this nation and that standard
shows no correlation between religion (or lack thereof) and crime. When
comparing religious groups you have to use a standard they all have to conform
to and laws are that standard, not one set of religious rules.
John Charity Spring sees boogeymen behind every curtain.People are
welcome to worship whomever they wish. I don't care.I do care when
they start using their religious beliefs to oppress certain members of society
who are outside the norm of those beliefs.Keep your religion to
yourself and nobody will bother you. Use your religion as a weapon to
discriminate against American Citizens, and you'll have a fight on your hands.
per John Charity Spring | 11:48 a.m. Jan. 7, 2012 What does this
have to do w/ the initial letter?per John Charity Spring | 3:50 p.m.
Jan. 7, 2012 While conservatives turn a blind eye to
megacorporations who are turning the US into a 3rd world country w/ a feudal
After reading these post's, I'm certainly happy that I don't believe in
something as a huge left wing war against religion. IF I spent as much time
hating and worrying about something that does not even exist, I think I would
welcome death. Life is very short, and to spend time on issues that I
"think" are killing me and my way of life, without real reason and
knowledge,(except for certain right wing radio and Tv host's promoting their
latest hate filled rant, to of course work up their willfull listening puplic
that is). Why is it that nobody can tell us what freedoms they have lost, and
proof that demo's are trying to get rid of religion? No facts, just hyperbole
and dislike for anybody who dosen't believe in a certain lifestyle. WoW.
re:JCSpringDon't let the facts inform you. New Mexico had the
highest teenage pregnancy rate (93 per 1,000), followed by Nevada, Arizona,
Texas and Mississippi. The lowest rates were in New Hampshire (33), Vermont,
Maine, Minnesota and North Dakota.The Census bureau found that
people living in northeastern states have lower marriage and divorce rates. And
while those in the southern states are more likely to get married, they also
have higher divorce rates. The states with the highest divorce rates were:
Oklahoma, Arkansas, Alaska, Alabama, Kentucky, Nevada, Mississippi, Georgia,
Tennessee and Arizona. Analysis suggests that the difficult
economic conditions of many southern states drives the divorce rate higher
because residents tend to be poorer. The states with particularly high divorce
rates have below median household income as well as a high proportion of the
population living below the poverty line. 98 percent of
self-identified conservatives, 91 percent of moderates and 85 percent of
liberals said they believed in God. according to a recent Gallup poll.
The liberals here ignore one crucial truth: although rates for certain crimes
can fluctuate, the overall crime rate is still at epidemic levels. The liberal's
argument is like telling someone with cancer that he is actually healthy because
he could have more cancer than he has.As for citing the New England
States as an example of goodness, that reference is ridiculous. Those three
states lead the nation in the attack against traditional marriage as well as
leading in rates of non-marital sex. This reference supports my point.The liberals also ignore the irrefutable fact that addiction to drugs and
alcohol are deatroying the lives of millions of Americans. Clearly, the left is
willing to overlook the casualties of its fight against religion.
It's just that conservatives don't seem capable of following through on how they
would feel if the majority of americans decide they want to pray to a golden
calf and do it school, during political speeches and make sure it's taught along
with science in schools and universities.Then it would be a problem
and you would want the separation of church and state. Liberals see the problem
before it occurs - that's the difference.
skeptic wrote, "I guess the same can be said for the victims of the Morning
Meadows Massacres also."Mountain Meadow Massacre was a tragic
event instigated by a paranoid people who had been persecuted for years and who
had lost almost 10% of their population in the process of fleeing that
persecution and crossing the Great Plains. Despite that persecution the
perpetrators had no right to do what they did and MMM will remain a dark stain
on LDS history forever. But those that were tragically murdered at
Mountain Meadow were not killed because of their religious beliefs. Their
religious beliefs had nothing to do with their tragic deaths. So,
no, the same cannot be said about the victims of Mountain Meadow Massacre. In
the American experience, there are countless unfortunate examples of religious
persecution but no religion has had to endure the unlawful persecution - often
instigated by law enforcement, elected officials or clergy - that the members of
the LDS faith have had to endure. And no religion was driven from their
lawfully owned properties the way the LDS people were.Today,
similarly ignorant hatred exists for members of the Muslim faith. Like in the
early days of the Mormon church, people would rather believe the hysterical
rantings of uninformed bigots. Until that stops we cannot claim to be a free
country with the right of believing what we want.
"These senseless crimes may be acceptable to those who fight against
religion, but they are not acceptable to those of us who want the peaceful,
moral society that religious influence provides."JCS, why would
you believe that the people that committed these crimes did not have reluence
influence in their lives? Why would you think they were not raised religious? Or
still believe in religious principles? Or are you under the
impression that only non-religious people "sin"?Crime
rates have gone down. Don't be scared. Plenty of people want you to be scared,
don't give in to them. There is plenty of religion in our country.
As much as anybody wants. Have you never noticed the number of churches around?
Nobody is making anybody tear them down. You can worship 24/7 if you
choose. Pray as much as you want, proclaim your religion.Just don't
do it in my house.
@JCS"These senseless crimes may be acceptable to those who fight
against religion, but they are not acceptable to those of us who want the
peaceful, moral society that religious influence provides. "Nobody likes senseless crime. The fact is that crime rates are going down.
That's good news. Yes there's still crime, there's always going to be crime, and
we always want it to get better, but does that mean we can't be happy that crime
rates are decreasing? Your argument says that removing religion from
the public sector creates more crime. Statistically that doesn't hold up. New
Hampshire, Vermont and Maine are 1 2 3 for least crime and highest percentage of
atheists. If you look at the 50 states as a whole there's no real correlation
between crime and religion (or lack thereof). Your argument is not valid because
the reality is that statistics do not suggest that religion in the public square
leads to less crime.I'm a Christian. I don't want public schools
leading students with Islamic prayers, and in exchange for that that means no
Chrisian prayers either.
I am hoping that the gamers of the world will develop a new video game (with a
dedication to JC Spring) pitting the forces of Religion vs. the Secularists. It
would be based on actual scenes from the Crusades with the Secularists playing
the part of the infidel (at least in the Utah version). The war would be
refereed by black robed activist jurists who would decide which side would
receive provisions, arms and reinforcements. The battles could be fought
endlessly in video format instead of in the streets and courts of America.
Players would be able to choose which side they represent and everyone would
have a chance to burn up the excess energy now being used to argue the issue
daily in these pages.
The usual left wing suspects have been quick to claim that all is well, and we
need not fear. Let us look at the facts.Just this week, a
central-Utah couple was murdered by a drug using couple involved in a
non-marital sexual relationship. Five Ogden police officers were shot, one
fatally, by a drug dealing maniac. A man was sentenced for strangling his
live-in girlfriend. The list goes on and on.These senseless crimes
may be acceptable to those who fight against religion, but they are not
acceptable to those of us who want the peaceful, moral society that religious
Some of you posters remind me about the citizens of ancient rome. They boasted
of themselves and said their civilization was too mighty to fall also. Those who
ignore history are condemned to repeat it. America can fall just like Rome fell
and if you read about how Rome fell, you will relize we are very close to
falling as a nation. The problem is that people don't read books anymore they
just listen to propogandists in the mass media.
re: John Charity Spring | 7:32 a.m. Jan. 7, 2012 Another parroted
talking point memo from fixed noise. Seriously(?), was JCS vacinnated w/ a
phonograph needle while riding a ferris wheel?The right has no
activists & If they did they'd be pure as new fallen snow? What about the
whole Terri Schiavo fiasco? Focus on Families? Pat Robertson? The Tea party?
@JCS your war is a myth. A myth that I believe most thoughtful, true Americans
don't subscribe to. I love American diversity and we are a better nation because
American HistoryMany religious groups formed the first colonies on
the basis of their religious beliefs. Although the plan was to escape
persecution, there was persecution happening in the colonies. For example the
Puritans wanted everyone to worship in the Puritan way. In order to ensure that
Puritanism. Nonconformists were fined, banished, whipped, and even imprisoned
for not conforming to the way of the Puritans. Virginia enacted
anti-Quaker laws, including the death penalty for refractory Quakers.Catholic fortunes fluctuated in Maryland during the rest of the 17th century,
as they became an increasingly smaller minority of the population. After 1689
the Church of England was legally established in the colony and English penal
laws, which deprived Catholics of the right to vote, hold office, or worship
publicly, were enforced.Virginia was settled by businessmen
operating the Virginia Company of London, who wanted to get rich. Early
governors sent by the Virginia Company acted as crusaders. Sir Thomas Dale
considered himself engaged in "religious warfare." During Dale's
tenure, religion was spread at the point of the sword. Everyone was required to
attend church and be catechized by a minister. Those who refused could be
executed or sent to the galleys.
I honestly don't remember anyone, ever telling me what I can or cannot believe.
You can believe what we want. No one will stop you.To JCS: Crime
rates have fallen drastically over the last twenty years. They are now back down
to levels not seen for almost fifty years. Drug use is down, the abortion rate
has decreased by 30% in the last thirty years. How does that fit into your grand
theory of a massive left-wing conspiracy?
What about religions who abuse people? Shouldn't there be a counter-weight?
@John Charity Springs"Left wing judges have legislated from the bench
to attack traditional practices such as prayer in school"Good,
why would we want public school led prayer? The only reason you all complain
about schools not leading students in prayers is because YOUR religion
(Christianity) is the one that would have led the prayers. You'd be singing a
different tune if this were a Muslim majority country and your kids had to deal
wtih schools leading whichever of the 5 mecca facing prayers a day occurred
during school hours."This attack on religion has created a
society in which crime, substance abuse, and immorality are at epidemic
levels."New Hampshire has the highest percentage of atheists of
any state and the lowest crime rate, there just isn't any correlation between
religion, or lack thereof... and crime. And really suggesting atheists are
criminals is just bigoted.
Mr. Spring,What's with the "left wing judges" rant? It's
never made sense and it's getting old.Do you know how many
politically conservative federal judges appointed by conservative presidents are
nonetheless ruling that your vision of a theocratic, authoritarian nation is in
fact a violation of constitutional liberties?Enough with the
persecution complex! There is no historical or legal merit to the fantasy that
your private religious beliefs are under attack. Noting the dangers and
historical failures of mixing religion and government is not an
"attack," it's simple honest reality.How do you explain
that in the US, crime, teen pregnancies, abortion and substance abuse are
generally higher in "red" states than in "blue" states? How do you explain that in other industrialized nations, the less
religious the government is, the better is the health, happiness, prosperity and
civil liberties of its citizens?Is it the secularists, or the
religious zealots, who are blowing themselves up in acts of mass murder in the
Middle East? Are they committing these crimes in an effort to reduce the role
of religion in government, or increase it?Keep religion out of
Thanks, Landon. I can count you among the supporters of my proposed casino in
Religion in America is under severe attack by the left wing. Indeed, the left
has turned the 1st Amendment on its head by claiming that what the amendment
really does is prohibit any religious influence in American life.Left wing judges have legislated from the bench to attack traditional
practices such as prayer in school and government meetings, displays of the Ten
Commandments, and Crosses to honor fallen troopers. Indeed, these leftist judges
have even prohibited use of the word Christ in conjunction with the word
Christmas in the public schools.This attack on religion has created
a society in which crime, substance abuse, and immorality are at epidemic
levels. But perhaps that is the goal-- the left wing goal of having citizens
turn to the government to provide them with entitlement programs for this life,
rather than to God to provide for the eternities.