That should be casinos not casino's, last line of paragraph 7.
red state pride | 7:29 p.m. Jan. 3, 2012 I guess my response to this
would be: if you are hemorrhaging from your femoral artery, you probably are
less worried with the paper cut on your finger.I am upset about the debt
that is being run up. However the two biggest things contributing to the
national debt is social security, and Medicare. We spend over a trillion
dollars a year on these no longer fully funded programs.Medicare is one of
the most inefficient and most abused programs, billions of dollars is wasted
each year in overcharges, unnecessary charges, and outright fraud.Now 300
million to me is an unimaginable amount of money; however when we take it in
context of the national budget; its not even a bump on a log.25,000,000,000 money that no ones know where it was spent: unaccounted federal
moneyI could go on, and on, about all the waste in government.By
making Medicare more efficient, with less fraud, we could take the money saved,
and fund basic medical care for all the nations children, and have money left
I haven't had any luck with this forum. I guess I shouldn't throw too many
stones at those who look down from high horses.
'As challenger, I am not making any claim at all.' - joe5 | 10:34 a.m. Jan. 4,
2012 Isn't that what I've been saying? :) As a
challenger in a debate, you have every right to question the facts presented by
the incumbent, however after a point that is ALL you are doing. You
present no counter-facts. No counterpoints. No information to DISCREDIT the
claim in the first place. As such, you are NOT factually making a
claim. I'm glad we agree. Good day to you.
Pagan: I don't know why you ar butting into someone else's discussion. But I'll
try to explain in simple words.In debate, it is incumbent on the
person making the claim to verify his claim with evidence. LDS Liberal made a
claim, a claim that I believe is outrageous and preposterous and completely
false. I'm challenging his claim. It is up to him to prove it.As
challenger, I am not making any claim at all. There is nothing that I need to
prove.School children might reply to a challenge by saying "yes
sir" or "is too" but adults should be able to provide the
evidence to support what they say, especially in a case where it is stated as
overt fact. Am I supposed to believe LDS Liberal simply because he said it was
so? Am I supposed to ignore all the other inaccurate statements he has made on
these message boards and just concede that he must be correct on this one
because he used rhetoric and exclamation points?I think not.
'That means numbers. That's all I'm asking for.' - joe5 | 9:28 a.m. Jan. 4, 2012
Which, you are unable to provide yourself. As such, you
ask questions to the person you are trying, in vain, to debate AGAINST. As such, once again.... you have no point, to make.
LDS LIberal: Your claim was quantitative, not qualitative. Yet you have only
provided qualitative evidence. You said MORE lives ruined (whatever you mean by
the word "ruined"). That means numbers. That's all I'm asking for.
Give me two numbers to support your claim:1) A number of lives that have
been "ruined" by gambling2) A number of lives that have been
"ruined" by Wall Street and banks.The problem is that you
can't do that, isn't it?By the way, "everybody" is not an
answer. My life has not been ruined by Wall Street, banks, or anything else. My
life is actually pretty nice.
Redshirt1701 "lds4gaymarriage." actually there is a big
difference between gambling and investing in commodities or stocksLDS4I mentioned commodity futures which are indeed gambling...but you get to keep
your recommend.RSSince, as your name indicates, you don't
follow the prophets in all things..LDS4I follow official Church
doctrine. Outlawing gambling is using force to get people to live morally.
Thats Satans Plan. We are to use kindness, gentleness, meekness and love
unfeigned to encourage people to live righteously. The prophets have said that
government is force and force harms agency.RSIt is sad that
your Mom didn't listen to the voice of the prophets. Just think of what good she
could have done with the money she blew in Vegas.LDS4Sure, she could
have vacationed in Frisco as I suggested and come home without the $400, having
spent it in SF, and been less happy. How is that any better?Kiyo
lds4gaymarriage...I'm all in favor of saving people from themselves...LDS4Keeping someone from driving drunk...sure, but forcing them to live
per Gods morals was Satans Plan. Government is Force.
joe5 | 4:12 p.m. Jan. 3, 2012 South Jordan, UT "More money is
lost, and more lives are ruined from WallStreet and Banks GAMBLING with other
people's money than has ever been ruined from "evil" Casinos."Care to back that up with facts? Or are you all about rhetoric? ========================= Jeepers, Creepers...Open your
eyes man!Casinos and Gambling have always been around.Good
Times and Bad times...NO effect on the National Economy.Yet -- The
ENTIRE U.S. Economy has melted down now not once, but TWICE -- and effected each
and every Aemrican -- all due to the greed and excesses of WallStreet and
Banks....not to mention the $$$ Trillions wated this time around with needless
foreign wars.Rhetoric?, hardly.
Deseret News, Thank you for telling it like it is.
@vidar- the point is... there is no 300 million to give- it's either printed or
borrowed from future generations who will pay it back with either higher taxes
or a lower standard of living. They haven't had a chance to decide- you are
deciding for them how much their dollars will be worth or how much they will pay
in taxes. Do you think that's moral? How much of your personal income are you
willing to commit since you are so benevolent with the money of the children yet
to be born. As far as the TARP bailout- I was against it- most banks
didn't need it or in many cases didn't even want it- it was jammed down their
throats. That said- excluding Fannie and Freddie and AIG it's been paid back
with interest so the FED made money (and Obama and Pelosi promptly spent the
profits). As long as we're on the subject - Wall Street has given more to
the current Pres than all Republican Presidential candidates combined so think
on that a bit....
To "Pagan | 5:50 p.m. " and how have things changed under your
"sainted" Obama?Lets see what St. Obama did with the $700
million bailout. According to "Bush requests bank bailout funds" in
the Washington Times from January 13, 2009 we read "President Bush on
Monday formally asked Congress for the second half of the $700 billion Wall
Street bailout package at the behest of President-elect Barack Obama" So
Bush got the bill approved, then Obama decided that he was better than Bush at
spending half of the money.Since you are so concerned with
accountability, why do you hold Bush solely accountable when Obama used Bush to
get $350 million to squander?In March 2009 Obama gave us the
"Public-Private Investment Program" which its potential cost of $1
Trillion.So, tell us, what has changed under Obama? He is risking
even more of your money than Bush did, yet he seems to be your patron saint.
@KiyoSo true, note the saying isn't friends don't let friend drink.
Friends don't let friends gamble their life away.
Re: lds4gaymarriage...I'm all in favor of saving people from
themselves...Sometimes others are the only friends we've got..."Friends
don't let friends drive drunk."
'Yet you did not even prove that one life is ruined much less that MORE are
ruined.' - joe5 | 5:16 p.m. Jan. 3, 2012 The question was: "More money is lost, and more lives are ruined from WallStreet and Banks
GAMBLING with other people's money...' - joe5 | 4:12 p.m. Jan. 3, 2012 I'm not sure who you were quoting. So, the question was, are
lives ruined from Wall Street gambling with OTHER people's money. I
gave an example...of $700 billion dollars worth, of other peoples money. Signed by a Republican Preisdent, George W. Bush. This
more of the 'personal accountability' I keep hearing about? While I
am used to criticism, let's be clear. Of the two of us... I am the
ONLY person, who presented any facts in regard to the topic. Your
tactic was to claim it was a 'disjointed and irrelevant response'. A
personal jab. And based on NOTHING, but rhetoric. If
your not going to do anything but criticize, you have LESS grounds to claim
facts are 'disjointed'... when you present zero, yourself. As such, you have no point, to make. Good day.
"More money is lost, and more lives are ruined from WallStreet and Banks
GAMBLING with other people's money than has ever been ruined from
"evil" Casinos." Lds liberal. Open your eyes. The democrats are
just as guilty as the republicans for propping up the banks and big pharma with
our tax dollars. Both parties are owned by their master handlers Goldman Sachs.
Once you lose your faith in big government you will see them all for what they
Pasgan: So you believe those "facts" prove that MORE money is lost and
MORE peoples live are ruined by Wall Street and Banks gambling than casinos. Yet
you did not even prove that one life is ruined much less that MORE are
ruined.I've noticed that you seem to have a tendency for random
synapses to fire than to be able to participate in a focused and intelligent
discussion.Your disjointed and irrelevant response provides more
evidence of that.
I lived in Las Vegas for several years and there were endless stories of people
that not only had their lives ruined but committed suicide as a result of their
gambling problem. When people started declaring bankruptcy to get out of
gambling debts, in 1990 the state made it a CRIMINAL OFFENSE not to pay debts
owed to casinos, effectively replacing the mob in enforcing casino debts. As a
result, failing to pay your bill on a gambling debt will very likely land you in
a Las Vegas jail. Any debt over $250 is considered a felony, and the Nevada DA
can and does extradite out-of-state visitors for unpaid gambling debts.
'Care to back that up with facts?' - joe5 | 4:12 p.m. Jan. 3, 2012
I will. *'Bush signs $700 billion bailout bill' - AP - Published by
Denver Post - By Tom Raum - 10/03/08 WASHINGTON President Bush
quickly signed into law a far-reaching $700 billion bill to bail out the
nation's tottering financial industry, calling it "essential to helping
America's economy" weather the storm. All these 'moral'
arguments about: Pornography Drinking Gambling. But Utah: *Utah No. 1 in online porn subscriptions, report says
By Elaine Jarvik 03/03/09 DSNews *'Utah DUI arrests DECLINE
despite looser liquor law' - By BROCK VERGAKIS - AP - Published by SL Tribune -
10/11/10 And yet Utah stands to PROFIT....GREATLY from these very
same 'immoral' actions. Another example? Cigarettes. Want to have 'moral' examples? Don't have STATE RUN liquor
"More money is lost, and more lives are ruined from WallStreet and Banks
GAMBLING with other people's money than has ever been ruined from
"evil" Casinos."Care to back that up with facts? Or
are you all about rhetoric?
To "lds4gaymarriage | 1:53 p.m." actually there is a big difference
between gambling and investing in commodities or stocks. With the purchase of
stocks or commodities you are investing money in a business, and are helping
people to work. With gambling you are trying to get something for nothing.Since, as your name indicates, you don't follow the prophets in all
things, lets educate you a bit.Read "The Evils of
Gambling" from the 1972 Ensign by Dallin H. Oaks.Also read
"The growth of gambling" at the LDS Newsroom from July 30, 1994.It is sad that your Mom didn't listen to the voice of the prophets.
Just think of what good she could have done witht he money she blew in Vegas.To "VIDAR | 1:54 p.m." you realize that the poeple who buy the
lottery tickets are also typically poor people who cannot really afford to keep
losing that money month after month. Why do you think Lotteries are often
referred to as "Stupid Taxes"? (Hopefully you will answer something
along the lines of people being bad at math.)
red state pride | 7:19 a.m. Jan. 3, 2012 so you are against the:300,000,000 (three hundred million) dollars that was sent to states to
provide health care for children. This you call welfare.but you are
ok with the:1,200,000,000,000 (1.2 trillion) of taxpayer money, that
was given away to banks, and wallstreet?personally, I am less
bothered with my money being used to give immunzations to a babies; then giving
400x more money to billionares, to buy another house in switzerland.
Satan's plan was to use force to get people to live righteously. Outlawing
vices (gambling, drinking, drugs, prostitution, etc...) emulates this plan.
These activities, in and of themselves, harm no one else, except, perhaps, those
involved in them. Casino Gambling isn't THAT much different than buying
commodity futures. Moderate drinking and pot smoking isn't any riskier than
being 100 lbs overweight with high cholesterol. Spending $100 on a woman's
concert ticket and her dinner in order to have sex isn't really any different
than just giving her the cash directly. The above shows that
outlawing vices really doesn't do any real good.40 years ago, I
asked my mom why she'd spend $400 during a weekend in Vegas instead of doing to
San Francisco. She said that she'd end up spending the same amount and having
less fun. She fully expected to lose the $400. Sometimes she'd win some and
not blow it all. She sometimes one big and came home with the $400 or even
more. The bottom line was that it was exciting and entertaining, not trying to
get rich. Sure, states should tax casinos to cover ALL added costs
they impose on society. Let people choose.
To "LDS Liberal | 10:02 a.m." you realize that your beloved Democrats
have given just as much, if not more to the Banks and Wall Street than the
Republicans have.Remember George Soros and Warren Buffet, they are
some of the people on Wall Street that have done what you claim. They are also
leaders of the liberal movement that you love so much.There are a
couple of questions that I would love for you to answer:First, why
is that you refuse to see that Wall Street has purchased the Democrat party?Second, what has changed under Obama? So far his programs and ideas are
the same as Bush's, but only differ in magnitude.
Nothing is preventing people from Utah; going to Nevada, and Wyoming to gamble,
the negative effects to our state are no less. What we miss out on; is
the money these state receive from Utahans; who go out of state to gambleMost of those who gamble are not addicts; they are just poor at math.I
do find it interesting that for drug addictions; people go to jail/prison. We
force them into court ordered treatment.It can be argued that gambling; is
just as damaging as far as increased crime, suicide, murder, child neglect
ect.I am in most cases opposed to sending people to prison for addiction.
Gambling and drugs are both addictive, and the best way to deal with the
addiction is treatment.I just find it interesting the different way we
deal with gambling addiction, as opposed to drug addiction.Mostly this is
an argument against sending those who are addicted to drugs to prison; it just
does not make good economic, or moral sense to me.
Did gambling ruin someone's life? Or did someone ruin their life by gambling.
Now change out gambling with any other word. People are responsible for their
actions, no one else. Choices made by people shape their lives. Gambling is
NOT a disease, it won't ruin your life. You however, can ruin your own life
with COUNTLESS things.
States have the right and responsibility to limit destructive behavior. We
regulate alcohol, tobacco and other harmful substances. Why not tax gambling so
that the negative societal consequences are funded among gamblers. They have the
"fun" while the rest of us pay for social services for those whose
lives are ruined by compulsive gambling. People don't want government
interference, but when they are devastated by not wearing motorcycle helmets or
gambling away their mortgage payments, they are the first to cry for help.
Oh ya -- and forgot to mention the legalization of the "Insurance"
Corporations form of Gambling.Gambling against getting in a wreck,
getting sick, or dying.....And lobbying Legislation, Forcing everytone to
buy it THEIR "plans" as a business but not considering it gambling.Again, I shake my head at the Right's continued support of Corporation's
legalized and Forced comply to a Companies gambling rackett, whilst demonizing
any other form of Chance.
red state pride | 7:19 a.m. Jan. 3, 2012 Are you also opposed to
medicare?What is the difference between medicare and CHIP/Medicaid?There are those who are on medicare that are Billionaires/MillionairesThose on medicare have come no where close to paying in what they are not
taking out of the fund.after maybe 3 months to 2 years all the money the
paid into the medicare fund has been paid back.Everything after that is
Red State pride " your household income can be no greater than 200% of the
federal poverty level. For a family of 3, this works out to an annual income of
about $31,340, or a monthly income of about $2,612." Wow, that is really
rich...and oh so close to to $100,000.
I like the Deseret News editorial boards liberal stand on this issue. The taxes
that governments receive from casinos look a lot like a bribe. The casinos
cannibalize the economy, they create the false impression that one can get
something for nothing (a lot of people bought into this with getting big housing
loans in a housing bubble), they take advantage of gullible people, they take
advantage of gambling addicts and they produce nothing.But the
governments permit it because they get a bribe from the casinos in the form of
contributions to the tax coffers. Not quite as slimy as a bribe in the personal
bank account, but it still stinks.
More money is lost, and more lives are ruined from WallStreet and Banks GAMBLING
with other people's money than has ever been ruined from "evil"
Casinos.But somehow the Right-Wing cottles WallStreet and Banks,
even giving them subsides and hand-outs and calling their gambling
"legal", and good.Now, let's throw in the greed, pride,
and control of the Gadianton Robbers.As I recall, they also turned the
laws in their favor....
Dont make it a Habit?Ive meet a few that over spend then they loss alot
more.As they return home hear nothing but complaints and even bigger
problems.yeah rightHave a good time Limit your money,yawn,,but be careful how much a gambler spends!
Gambling is a pernicious evil that should not be sponsored or even
supported by the government. Any State which supports gambling jas sold its soul
to the devil for 30 pieces of silver.Far too many States are
addicted to revenue generated from gambling. These States use this money to fund
left wing entitlement programs, which just perpetuates the problem.Gambling States need to realize that gambling results in costs that are much
higher than the revenues obtained. The costs of providing law enforcement, fire
protection, and sanitation services far outweighs any revenue.
@pragmatistforlife: CHIP is a middle class entitlement- I think in some states a
family can make close to six figures and qualify so I don't want to hear about
"poor kids". Just remember- once the bureaucrats are in charge of your
health care (not health insurance) they own you lock, stock, and barrel- and
you'll keep voting for them because you don't have any other choice.
To "taxingthepoor | 4:24 a.m." who said you ever had to enter the 401K
casino in the first place. If you are that bad at investing you should have
either hired it out or else looked into alternative retirement savings methods.
Don't blame the market for your bad choices.
"Today where we learned the Obama Administration has awarded 300 million
(that we don't have by the way) in "bonus money" to 23 states that
identified and enrolled eligible children in Medicaid and CHIP. Way to go
states! You have succeeded in..allowing some poor children medical treatment
they wouldn't have been able to afford otherwise..you've succeeded in allowing
some poor families enough money to not have to choose between food and health
Those poor addicts. Lets face facts. The vast majority of people can handle
gambling, drinking, drugs, etc... A small amount have personal issues; often
exacerbated by their own personality traits. The fact that hard liquor is
available and society is not getting up and drinking whiskey from dusk till dawn
shows that the vast majority of people make the right decision even when faced
with temptation. The majority of people do not run to vegas to play or to
the border for lottery tickets. Lets stop making laws for the minority.
Part of the reason that gambling has become so pervasive is that rather than
general revenue enhancements which conservatives hate, states are looking for
more revenue and have found a source. Rather than focusing on the general
welfare, the states then become predators on their own people. It has become a
user fee, much like tolls on highways instead of raising gas taxes so that all
will contribute to the building and maintenance of roads and highways. It is a
wrong-headed approach and one that deviates from the underlying philosophy of
the founding principles. Such is the way of right wing, narcissism approach to
I'm not opposed to legal gambling although something seems slimy and immoral
about governments encouraging it. I absolutely detest state sponsored lotteries
- I'm pretty certain we're headed down the wrong road when States are running
their own gambling operations (lotteries) What I found more disturbing was
the article on A3 today where we learned the Obama Administration has awarded
300 million (that we don't have by the way) in "bonus money" to 23
states that identified and enrolled eligible children in Medicaid and CHIP. Way
to go states! You have succeeded in addicting more people to welfare! They'll
have no sense of self reliance or self worth but they will have extra money to
spend in casinos. And you'll get back a portion of that so it's a win all the
way around. Pardon me if I'm not as excited about this nation's prospects
as Kathleen Sebelius.
I gamble but don't have a gambling problemI drink but don't have a
drinking problemAnd I am the norm.Yes, we can look at
the total numbers with gambling or drinking problems and they seem quite
large.But for the millions who engage in those activities, it is a
very small percentage with actual problems. People constantly tout
personal responsibility and accountability, and reducing government interference
in our lives unless it involves things we don't like.
Can we close down the 401k Casino. It has destroyed my retirement, without
having any fun in the process.