If congress were to adopt Ryan's original plan, we would still have a program
called "Medicare". It just would be completely different in every way
than what we know today as Medicare. That's why the Democratic claim is not a
lie, contrary to what Politifact says.The new Wyden/Ryan plan lets
seniors choose between the Ryan plan and traditional Medicare, this means all
would choose traditional Medicare, resulting in no cost savings.I
agree that Medicare is the primary driver of our future deficits and needs to be
reformed. I just haven't seen a viable plan yet.Here's one plan:
Medicare patients in Miami cost taxpayers 250% more than Medicare patients in
Minneapolis, yet they are no healthier. Let's say that Medicare can pay no more
than they pay the most efficient plan that achieves health results at or above
the national average.
In this case, the real "liar" is Politifact. Democrats are not saying
that Medicare will be ended under the Ryan plan. They are pointing out that it
would be eventually privatized and controlled by the health insurance industry.
At present, Medicare is essentially a "Single Payer" system offered on
a non profit basis. That non profit cost advantage is lost under the Ryan plan.
The profit motive would over time encourage insurers to find ways not to cover
those seniors at the highest risk, or to increase premium costs so that these
seniors are priced out of the market. Just because Ryan's plan is still called
Medicare, it does not follow that it still is Medicare. When the numbers are
crunched under the Ryan plan, it looks like seniors would have to pay much more
in premium costs than they do now, because when all is said and done someone has
to pay for the health insurer's profit.
And a year or two ago, it was Sarah Palin's claim that Obamacare had death
panels in it.Are there no politicians on the right side who can tell
If you change the plan drastically for all future recipients, even if you call
it "medicare", if it isn't the same plan we have today, then it is NOT
Medicare. The Dems have it right. Ryan's plan is to do away with Medicare as
we know it.
one old manDealth panels are a reality. You just have to wait
around long enough for these social programs to become unsustainable. Patience,
it won't be much longer...
Your right km but it's the insurance companies who run them, and pay the
panelist hugh bonuses to decide whether a person who has payed their premiums,
has enough extra money for a lawyer to fight them in court for the coverage they
thought they had when the salesman sold it to them.
happy valley hereticYour right insurance companies are almost as bad
as a government panel will be. Both decide what is affordable. I just don't
trust government panels more than insurance panels. Besides, you can sue
insurance companies more easily than the government.
Have we looked at the budget projections for medicare. at the current rates
medicare will eat up the defense budget and with medicaid eat up the social
security budget by 2050. Its time we do away with cadillac plans and make
consumers more responsible for the care they receive. Otherwise we will keep
living high on the hog until there is no hog left.
'Your right insurance companies are almost as bad as a government panel will
be.' - KM | 9:11 a.m. Dec. 29, 2011 So, we should stop something
now...because you THINK something else will be worse... later? How is this a fact? This is a PROJECTION. Nothing more than
theory. This, is a fact: *'Wellpoint Drops Coverage For
Some Women With Breast Cancer' - By Mary Ellen Egan - Forbes Magazine -
04/23/10 'Yesterday, an investigation by Reuters revealed that
Wellpoint routinely drops coverage of women with breast cancer. According to the
report, Wellpoint used a computer algorithm that automatically targeted...' *'Uninsured ER patients twice as likely to die' - AP - 11/16/09 'The findings by Harvard University researchers surprised doctors and
health experts who have believed emergency room care was equitable.' -
Article We shouldn't HAVE to sue private insurance companies to get
what we PAY for KM. And at least goverment, is accountable, to the
'And a year or two ago, it was Sarah Palin's claim that Obamacare had death
panels in it.' - one old man | 7:20 a.m. Dec. 29, 2011 Supported:
*'Palin: Obama's "Death Panel" Could Kill My Down
Syndrome Baby' - By Eric Kleefeld - Talking Points Memo - 08/07/09
Sarah Palin villified socialized Medicine... after going to Canada
for...socialized medicine! *'Sarah Palin: I Went to Canada for
Health Care as a Child' - By Brian Montopoli - CBS News - 03/08/10
If one wonders WHY the credibility of the Republican party is in question... one just has to LOOK, at the claims of the Republican party. *Sen Kyl mocked for making up numbers in abortion debate By Sara
Israelsen-Hartley DSNews 04/12/11 *'Brewer Finally Backpedals: I
Was Wrong About Headless Bodies' - By Ben Frumin - Talking Points Memo They have NO credibility! "The Iraqi regime . . . possesses
and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons.' -
George W. Bush - Ohio Speech 10/7/2002 *'US gives up search for Iraq
WMD' - BBC News - 01/12/05 'Mr Duelfer reported last year that Iraq
had no stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons...'
A for profit health care industry and health care insurance business encourages
limitless cost in health care. Though demonized by the righit wing, Moore's
"Sicko" deserves another look - or for many of you, your first look.
Pagan"At least the government is accountable to the
people." Yes, but the czars are not. Nor is the Fed. Is the congress?
You answer that one after they have been caught red-handed in insider trading
with their big corporate buddies, and nothing has or will happen to them. Heck,
a president can disgrace the oval office with a young girl intern and still
remain president, does this sound like accountablity?When the government
controls who get treatment and who does not...you and I will have to rely on
these people to not pick winners and loosers. Wait! thats what our government
already does all the time. Fact!
'Yes, but the czars are not. Nor is the Fed. Is the congress?' - KM | 10:42 a.m.
Dec. 29, 2011 Now, your just contradicting yourself.
You 'agree' with me... but. I enjoy how you bring up an
extramarital affair with one president... and ignore two, with some
of our canidates. *'Gingrich Says He Cheated on His Wife' - AP -
Published by NY Times - 03/09/07 And also, ignore the war based on
'faulty intelligence.' *'George W Bush says Iraq intelligence
failure is his biggest regret' - By Alex Spillius - 12/01/08 - The UK
telegraph 'Though the outgoing US president failed to take
responsibility for the misfortunes that have beset the country during his eight
years in office, he was candid about wishing things had gone better.' So cheating on your wife is WORSE THAN, a war where 4,000 America lives are
lost... but Newt Gingrich is STILL able to run for President on the
Republican ticket? No. Credibility.
Sicko had so many inaccuracies in it. The truth medicare should be consumer
driven. This is a basic economic principle its not something you can just
ignore, without consumer driven policies you will have ever rising costs for
everyone and soon the level of care drops off. Paul Ryan is not
some right wing hack. He has facts to back up his answers not emotianally based
and factually inaccurate accounts like Mr. Moore.
The article says: But recently Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times'
fact-checking website, declared its winner: the claim by congressional Democrats
that House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan's budget plan would "end
Medicare."Its too bad the Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times'
fact-checking website, didnt include the Chicago Tribune in their search for
lies. I would like to suggest some candidatesMillionaires create jobs.Business creates jobs. Give
money to millionaires and businesses and they will create jobs. Business is not hiring because health care costs are high. Business is not hiring because they are unsure about the future. The Tea Party is about freedom.
Medicare is a mandatory program and should be tapered off in the coming
years.Those who paid into it should receive fair value back for it but it
should be imo gradually shut down,as it is not a legitimate function of the
federal government. There are other ways to deal with health issues such as
private medicine and the under-tilized method of treating your body like a
temple not a restaurant, tavern, or house of ill repute.As I get old
I would like to die with dignity in my own home when the time comes. What can
the medical profession do for old age anyway? There are pills to mask pain,
artificial limbs and joints, cancer treatments that rarely work (they call you a
"survivor" if you live five years after diagnosis, which you could
have lived without being tortured by "medical science").
If we are to stop "Mediscare" does that include the liberals who
constantly state that if you ever get sick with anything serious that you will
go bankrupt and lose everything.I have yet to hear of somebody
having to liquidate their posessions as part of bankruptcy to pay for medical
'I have yet to hear of somebody having to liquidate their posessions as part of
bankruptcy to pay for medical bills.' - Redshirt1701 | 12:55 p.m. Dec. 29, 2011
*'Zsa Zsa Gabor forced to sell $28-million Bel-Air home to pay
medical bills, debt, husband says' - By Shan Li - LA Times - 01/25/11 Another example: *'Only in America: Bankruptcy Due to Health Care
Costs' - James E. Dalen, MD, MPH - 08/04/09 'The article by
Himmelstein in this issue of the The American Journal of Medicine documents that
health care expenses were the most common cause of bankruptcy in the United
States in 2007, accounting for 62% of US bankruptcies compared with 8% in
1981.' So, here we have examples from 12 MONTHS ago, and 30 YEARS
ago. If you have not 'heard' of any of these examples over x3
decades... you do not WANT too.
@happy valley hereticSounds pretty much what most people think, and
that I am, in this, far more "heretical" than you. Live up to your
name, man! Think for yourself. Be like the heretics of old and make a few
waves by telling the truth.
To "Pagan | 1:05 p.m." was that court mandated as I listed, or not.You are ignorant of bankruptcy. The typical bankruptcy only reorganizes
debt, and does not liquidate.The question is this. Would you rather
declare bankruptcy and reorganize your debts or would you rather suffer with a
healthcare system like England has?
....This article proves that the right and left can work together for the common
good, Wydon being a very liberal senator from Oregon, and Ryan TEA
party...Poof...no more gridlock.
Was it Bushes fault there was faulty intelligence going into that stupid war? Or
was it Clinton who said we must take Sadam out because he was such a threat to
our country?We should all be wary of Gingrich for his personal cheating.
I would question his ability to lead based on his personal infidelities. Now
the left and their media would more likely vote for someone who is a lying
cheating person. Why? I dunno
Redshirt. Take off your earmuffs and take the wax out of your ears.
Whoops! My post above directed at "Happy Valley Heretic" belongs to
another thread (Obamacare) in which I was responding to his critique of an
earlier post in that thread. Sorry.Happy Valley's post in this
thread doesn't seem so bad, interesting thought even.Got to get more
sleep than this, or spend more time on the forum. Happy New Year everybody,
The fact is that Ryan's plan completely changes Medicare to the point that it no
longer represents the healthcare guarantee we have in place now. Perhaps
"destroys Medicare" is not an appropriate phrase since it makes it
assume like there'd be nothing but "replaces Medicare" is certainly
appropriate.@Roland Kayser"The new Wyden/Ryan plan lets
seniors choose between the Ryan plan and traditional Medicare, this means all
would choose traditional Medicare, resulting in no cost savings."Yeah but it'd teach republicans a lesson in what seniors want so that would be
helpful.@KMIncidentally death panels were the 2009 lie of the