What others say: Stop the 'Mediscare'


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  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 31, 2011 7:44 a.m.

    The fact is that Ryan's plan completely changes Medicare to the point that it no longer represents the healthcare guarantee we have in place now. Perhaps "destroys Medicare" is not an appropriate phrase since it makes it assume like there'd be nothing but "replaces Medicare" is certainly appropriate.

    @Roland Kayser
    "The new Wyden/Ryan plan lets seniors choose between the Ryan plan and traditional Medicare, this means all would choose traditional Medicare, resulting in no cost savings."

    Yeah but it'd teach republicans a lesson in what seniors want so that would be helpful.

    Incidentally death panels were the 2009 lie of the year.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 7:37 p.m.

    Whoops! My post above directed at "Happy Valley Heretic" belongs to another thread (Obamacare) in which I was responding to his critique of an earlier post in that thread. Sorry.

    Happy Valley's post in this thread doesn't seem so bad, interesting thought even.

    Got to get more sleep than this, or spend more time on the forum. Happy New Year everybody, including HVHeretic.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 5:15 p.m.

    Redshirt. Take off your earmuffs and take the wax out of your ears.

  • KM Cedar Hills, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 4:11 p.m.

    Was it Bushes fault there was faulty intelligence going into that stupid war? Or was it Clinton who said we must take Sadam out because he was such a threat to our country?
    We should all be wary of Gingrich for his personal cheating. I would question his ability to lead based on his personal infidelities. Now the left and their media would more likely vote for someone who is a lying cheating person. Why? I dunno

  • Kiyo Washougal, Washington
    Dec. 29, 2011 3:27 p.m.

    ....This article proves that the right and left can work together for the common good, Wydon being a very liberal senator from Oregon, and Ryan TEA party...Poof...no more gridlock.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Dec. 29, 2011 2:53 p.m.

    To "Pagan | 1:05 p.m." was that court mandated as I listed, or not.

    You are ignorant of bankruptcy. The typical bankruptcy only reorganizes debt, and does not liquidate.

    The question is this. Would you rather declare bankruptcy and reorganize your debts or would you rather suffer with a healthcare system like England has?

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 2:18 p.m.

    @happy valley heretic

    Sounds pretty much what most people think, and that I am, in this, far more "heretical" than you. Live up to your name, man! Think for yourself. Be like the heretics of old and make a few waves by telling the truth.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 1:05 p.m.

    'I have yet to hear of somebody having to liquidate their posessions as part of bankruptcy to pay for medical bills.' - Redshirt1701 | 12:55 p.m. Dec. 29, 2011

    *'Zsa Zsa Gabor forced to sell $28-million Bel-Air home to pay medical bills, debt, husband says' - By Shan Li - LA Times - 01/25/11

    Another example:

    *'Only in America: Bankruptcy Due to Health Care Costs' - James E. Dalen, MD, MPH - 08/04/09

    'The article by Himmelstein in this issue of the The American Journal of Medicine documents that health care expenses were the most common cause of bankruptcy in the United States in 2007, accounting for 62% of US bankruptcies compared with 8% in 1981.'

    So, here we have examples from 12 MONTHS ago, and 30 YEARS ago.

    If you have not 'heard' of any of these examples over x3 decades...

    you do not WANT too.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Dec. 29, 2011 12:55 p.m.

    If we are to stop "Mediscare" does that include the liberals who constantly state that if you ever get sick with anything serious that you will go bankrupt and lose everything.

    I have yet to hear of somebody having to liquidate their posessions as part of bankruptcy to pay for medical bills.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 12:53 p.m.

    Medicare is a mandatory program and should be tapered off in the coming years.
    Those who paid into it should receive fair value back for it but it should be imo gradually shut down,as it is not a legitimate function of the federal government. There are other ways to deal with health issues such as private medicine and the under-tilized method of treating your body like a temple not a restaurant, tavern, or house of ill repute.

    As I get old I would like to die with dignity in my own home when the time comes. What can the medical profession do for old age anyway? There are pills to mask pain, artificial limbs and joints, cancer treatments that rarely work (they call you a "survivor" if you live five years after diagnosis, which you could have lived without being tortured by "medical science").

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 11:40 a.m.

    The article says: But recently Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times' fact-checking website, declared its winner: the claim by congressional Democrats that House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan's budget plan would "end Medicare."

    Its too bad the Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times' fact-checking website, didnt include the Chicago Tribune in their search for lies.

    I would like to suggest some candidates

    Millionaires create jobs.

    Business creates jobs.

    Give money to millionaires and businesses and they will create jobs.

    Business is not hiring because health care costs are high.

    Business is not hiring because they are unsure about the future.

    The Tea Party is about freedom.

  • The Hammer lehi, utah
    Dec. 29, 2011 11:38 a.m.

    Sicko had so many inaccuracies in it. The truth medicare should be consumer driven. This is a basic economic principle its not something you can just ignore, without consumer driven policies you will have ever rising costs for everyone and soon the level of care drops off.

    Paul Ryan is not some right wing hack. He has facts to back up his answers not emotianally based and factually inaccurate accounts like Mr. Moore.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 11:11 a.m.

    'Yes, but the czars are not. Nor is the Fed. Is the congress?' - KM | 10:42 a.m. Dec. 29, 2011

    Now, your just contradicting yourself.

    You 'agree' with me...


    I enjoy how you bring up an extramarital affair with one president...

    and ignore two, with some of our canidates.

    *'Gingrich Says He Cheated on His Wife' - AP - Published by NY Times - 03/09/07

    And also, ignore the war based on 'faulty intelligence.'

    *'George W Bush says Iraq intelligence failure is his biggest regret' - By Alex Spillius - 12/01/08 - The UK telegraph

    'Though the outgoing US president failed to take responsibility for the misfortunes that have beset the country during his eight years in office, he was candid about wishing things had gone better.'

    So cheating on your wife is WORSE THAN, a war where 4,000 America lives are lost...

    but Newt Gingrich is STILL able to run for President on the Republican ticket?



  • KM Cedar Hills, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 10:42 a.m.


    "At least the government is accountable to the people." Yes, but the czars are not. Nor is the Fed. Is the congress? You answer that one after they have been caught red-handed in insider trading with their big corporate buddies, and nothing has or will happen to them. Heck, a president can disgrace the oval office with a young girl intern and still remain president, does this sound like accountablity?
    When the government controls who get treatment and who does not...you and I will have to rely on these people to not pick winners and loosers. Wait! thats what our government already does all the time. Fact!

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 10:26 a.m.

    A for profit health care industry and health care insurance business encourages limitless cost in health care. Though demonized by the righit wing, Moore's "Sicko" deserves another look - or for many of you, your first look.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 10:18 a.m.

    'And a year or two ago, it was Sarah Palin's claim that Obamacare had death panels in it.' - one old man | 7:20 a.m. Dec. 29, 2011


    *'Palin: Obama's "Death Panel" Could Kill My Down Syndrome Baby' - By Eric Kleefeld - Talking Points Memo - 08/07/09

    Sarah Palin villified socialized Medicine...

    after going to Canada for...socialized medicine!

    *'Sarah Palin: I Went to Canada for Health Care as a Child' - By Brian Montopoli - CBS News - 03/08/10

    If one wonders WHY the credibility of the Republican party is in question...

    one just has to LOOK, at the claims of the Republican party.

    *Sen Kyl mocked for making up numbers in abortion debate By Sara Israelsen-Hartley DSNews 04/12/11

    *'Brewer Finally Backpedals: I Was Wrong About Headless Bodies' - By Ben Frumin - Talking Points Memo

    They have NO credibility!

    "The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons.' - George W. Bush - Ohio Speech 10/7/2002

    *'US gives up search for Iraq WMD' - BBC News - 01/12/05

    'Mr Duelfer reported last year that Iraq had no stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons...'

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 10:05 a.m.

    'Your right insurance companies are almost as bad as a government panel will be.' - KM | 9:11 a.m. Dec. 29, 2011

    So, we should stop something now...because you THINK something else will be worse...


    How is this a fact?

    This is a PROJECTION. Nothing more than theory.

    This, is a fact:

    *'Wellpoint Drops Coverage For Some Women With Breast Cancer' - By Mary Ellen Egan - Forbes Magazine - 04/23/10

    'Yesterday, an investigation by Reuters revealed that Wellpoint routinely drops coverage of women with breast cancer. According to the report, Wellpoint used a computer algorithm that automatically targeted...'

    *'Uninsured ER patients twice as likely to die' - AP - 11/16/09

    'The findings by Harvard University researchers surprised doctors and health experts who have believed emergency room care was equitable.' - Article

    We shouldn't HAVE to sue private insurance companies to get what we PAY for KM.

    And at least goverment, is accountable, to the people.


  • The Hammer lehi, utah
    Dec. 29, 2011 9:16 a.m.

    Have we looked at the budget projections for medicare. at the current rates medicare will eat up the defense budget and with medicaid eat up the social security budget by 2050. Its time we do away with cadillac plans and make consumers more responsible for the care they receive. Otherwise we will keep living high on the hog until there is no hog left.

  • KM Cedar Hills, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 9:11 a.m.

    happy valley heretic

    Your right insurance companies are almost as bad as a government panel will be. Both decide what is affordable. I just don't trust government panels more than insurance panels. Besides, you can sue insurance companies more easily than the government.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 8:27 a.m.

    Your right km but it's the insurance companies who run them, and pay the panelist hugh bonuses to decide whether a person who has payed their premiums, has enough extra money for a lawyer to fight them in court for the coverage they thought they had when the salesman sold it to them.

  • KM Cedar Hills, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 7:48 a.m.

    one old man

    Dealth panels are a reality. You just have to wait around long enough for these social programs to become unsustainable. Patience, it won't be much longer...

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 7:31 a.m.

    If you change the plan drastically for all future recipients, even if you call it "medicare", if it isn't the same plan we have today, then it is NOT Medicare. The Dems have it right. Ryan's plan is to do away with Medicare as we know it.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 7:20 a.m.

    And a year or two ago, it was Sarah Palin's claim that Obamacare had death panels in it.

    Are there no politicians on the right side who can tell the truth?

  • Mike in Texas Cedar City, Utah
    Dec. 29, 2011 2:53 a.m.

    In this case, the real "liar" is Politifact. Democrats are not saying that Medicare will be ended under the Ryan plan. They are pointing out that it would be eventually privatized and controlled by the health insurance industry. At present, Medicare is essentially a "Single Payer" system offered on a non profit basis. That non profit cost advantage is lost under the Ryan plan. The profit motive would over time encourage insurers to find ways not to cover those seniors at the highest risk, or to increase premium costs so that these seniors are priced out of the market. Just because Ryan's plan is still called Medicare, it does not follow that it still is Medicare. When the numbers are crunched under the Ryan plan, it looks like seniors would have to pay much more in premium costs than they do now, because when all is said and done someone has to pay for the health insurer's profit.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 29, 2011 1:28 a.m.

    If congress were to adopt Ryan's original plan, we would still have a program called "Medicare". It just would be completely different in every way than what we know today as Medicare. That's why the Democratic claim is not a lie, contrary to what Politifact says.

    The new Wyden/Ryan plan lets seniors choose between the Ryan plan and traditional Medicare, this means all would choose traditional Medicare, resulting in no cost savings.

    I agree that Medicare is the primary driver of our future deficits and needs to be reformed. I just haven't seen a viable plan yet.

    Here's one plan: Medicare patients in Miami cost taxpayers 250% more than Medicare patients in Minneapolis, yet they are no healthier. Let's say that Medicare can pay no more than they pay the most efficient plan that achieves health results at or above the national average.