Comments about ‘In our opinion: Save more, spend less’

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Published: Tuesday, Dec. 27 2011 12:00 a.m. MST

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RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "Mike in Cedar City | 11:08 a.m." because the United Order is capitalism where you own your farm, and are asked (not forced) to give your excess to others. You see, this is a voluntary system where you, and only you determine what is excess. The government or church did not determine what was excess.

Actually, for socialism to work, it does require force to maintain. Yes some people are dumb enough to vote in socialism, but it eventually destroys their nation. Just look at Greece. They voted for all of the people and programs that have caused them to go under.

The things that you call "socialized" are not socialism. What LDS Liberal and others want is socialism or communism. If you want I can supply you many quotes from various LDS Prophets stating that Socialism is Satan's plan.

threedegreecougar
Kaysville, UT

To RedShirt:

Only two general authorities (not prophets) reference socialism in General Conference proceedings. Ezra Taft Benson and Marion G. Romney (neither as prophet). As we know, Benson was an extreme political radical. Even FBI director Herbert Hoover wanted nothing to do with Benson's form of radicalism. And the types of services that exist in the U.S. today have nothing to do with the types of socialism and communism that have existed historically in other countries. Conservatives who invoke the fallacy of the U.S. system today being anything close to the socialism of the past or even the more leftist countries of today are just engaging in disingenuous scare tactics.

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

RedShirt | 10:49 a.m. Dec. 27, 2011

if the prophets have also warned against Socialism and Communism, or any system that uses force rather than leaving it up to the individual, is true, some of us will conclude that they are false prophets.

All systems that control the actions of their group exercise an element of force, even Mormonism.

Please, please, please tell us what your definition of Socialism is? And if you can, the definitions that were used by those prophets.

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "threedegreecougar | 11:47 a.m. " you are wrong. First when saying that Ezra Taft Benson and Marion G. Romney were not prophets when they said that Socialism is wrong, and second by assuming that they are the only ones who have spoken out against it. Benson and Romney were both members of the Quorum of 12 Apostles when they spoke out againt socialism. That quorum are sustained as prophets, seers and revelators. Say what you want, they were prophets.

Since you are ignorant of other quotes from prophets, here are a few:

Elder John Widstow's book Evidences and Reconciliations (vol. 1) states that a "The self-called liberal is usually one who has broken with the fundamental principles or guiding philosophy of the group to which he belongs....Socialists and communists are the liberals of today."

From Brigham Young "We heard Brother Taylors exposition of what is called Socialism this morning. What can they do? Live on each other and beg. It is a poor, unwise and very imbecile people who cannot take care of themselves. Source: President Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 14, p. 21. 1870.

Also read "First Presidency Message, in Conference Report, Apr. 1942"

Ernest T. Bass
Bountiful, UT

It's all about greed. Which party is the party of greed and which party is about the greater good? Which party is all for corporate greed with a disappearing middle class and which party wants a stronger middle class?
What made the US a strong economy to begin with was people spending with debt. Only the 1% can pay cash for their 2nd home and large boats.

threedegreecougar
Kaysville, UT

Red Shirt:

1) You ignore my main point that what you and other conservatives fear today in the U.S. as resembling socialsim and communism is fear mongering delusion. 2) I am not ignorant of other comments. They are easy enough to do an internet search on and I have read the passages you give in the past: a) They were not the prophet of the church when they said it - and Ezra Taft Benson was a political radical who inserted personal interpretations into his rhetoric. He was so radical he considered Dwight Eisenhower a friend of communism. John Widstoe's book is not part of the LDS scriptural canon, and as such is personal opinion only. Brigham Young lived in an age when socialism as it was known in the 20th century did not exist. The conference report message only references communism, which as a political system in practice never reflected the utopian theory of socialisms - communism as a political system from the beginning was perverted into totalitarianism in the service of a very few.

threedegreecougar
Kaysville, UT

Why is it that conservatives ignore that the time of the most prosperity and economic advancement in the U.S. - post 1945 to the early 1970s - when hard working people could earn a good living - was a time when taxes on the very wealthy were at their highest and the New Deal social policies were implemented? Since then, the hard working individual has had their wages stagnate or decline, while income for the wealthy has sky-rocketed, taxes on them have plummeted and conservatives have attacked New Deal policies. But, alas, it's the hard working individual who is blamed for the mess - the ones who can no longer find a job because the wealthy mess up the financial system and use cheap labor overseas

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

To "threedegreecougar | 12:33 p.m" you are wrong once again. The US is quickly resembling communism and socialism. Just look at the leaders and advisors to the president. The president has multiple advisors who are anti-capitalists and/or self avowed socialists or communists. Why would he have those type of people advising him if he didn't believe in socialism also.

When Ezra Taft Benson wasy saying that Communism and Socialism were wrong he was a Prophet. He was not the President of the Church yet, but was one of 15 living Prophets leading the LDS church. Are you saying that you know more about the plans of Satan than the Prophets?

You are ignoring the quote from Hinkley that proclaimed the importance of agency over force. Socialism fails that check also because it requires force to maintain.

You are forgetting that during that period from 1945 to the 1970's you also had a massive push to minimize government intrusion into business. It is since the 1970's that we have seen an increase in the size and power of the Federal Government.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

threedegreecougar | 12:45 p.m. Dec. 27, 2011
Kaysville, UT


Agreed!

I laugh at the irony at those like Mr. RedShirt you hate Americans trying to make good against the truly evil excesses of Corporte Capitialism on WallStreet, Banks, Defense Contractors, and Oil Companies....

All while they gut, clean and off-load anything not bolted to American soil to COMMUNIST Red China, all in the holy name of Capitalism.

marxist
Salt Lake City, UT

I think you conservatives need to understand that private capitalism crashed and burned the last quarter of 2008. The banking, housing, and all the other "private" industries are on government life support, which support unfortunately doesn't benefit (much) the 99%.

dalefarr
South Jordan, Utah

The Great Recession was not created by, run or extended by runaway consumer spending. It was created by and ran on fraudlenlty bundled and marketed securites by insufficiently regulated financial entities.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

Redshirt1701 | 1:36 p.m. Dec. 27, 2011
Deep Space 9, Ut

RedShirt -- Answer just this ONE question for us all please.....

How do think Pres. Ezra Taft Benson today would think, feel, or say about America's Capitalists trade deficeit to Communist Red China?

Favorably or Un-Favorably?

You are a Free Trade advocate.
Does Free Trade mean to the expense and detrement of America as a whole?

I think Pres. Benson must be rolling over in his grave right now of the likes of your pure Capitalistic "ilk".

procuradorfiscal
Tooele, UT

Re: ". . . private capitalism crashed and burned the last quarter of 2008."

Private capitalism hasn't existed in the securities, insurance, and banking industries since Roosevelt -- TR, not FDR.

The 2008 crash, like the three crashes between 1906 and WWI, the 1929 crash, the 3 [or 4, depending on your views] crashes between 1932 and 1954, and the 1971, 1978/9, and 1987 crashes are all attributable solely to "progressive" market tinkering, resulting capital uncertainty, followed by ill-advised, ill-timed, short-sighted, sophomoric attempts to resolve uncertainty with politically limited tools, wholly unsuited to the task.

TR used a [1901] crash to justify his tinkering. Every "progressive" since has used the same or similar lame excuse, but they all amount to attempts to buy votes by favoring one political constituency over another.

The 2008 crash is directly attributable to "progressive" [Barney Frank/Chris Dodd] tinkering with Fannie and Freddie, and reactions to it. It's being used by Obama as his excuse for a new round of crony-progressive tinkering.

Leading, inevitably, to a new crash.

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

"The US is quickly resembling communism and socialism. Just look at the leaders and advisors to the president"...." you are wrong once again".

John Jackson
Sandy, UT

Consumer spending is often considered a plus for the economy. I think you are wise, though, to see that this does not extend to credit spending. Thank you for the thought.

Wally West
SLC, UT

re: The Real Maverick | 8:43 a.m. Dec. 27, 2011

But, Someone (can't recall who?) once said, "Corporations are people too."

RRB
SLC, UT

Get use to a lower standard of living, it comes with a surplus of cheap labor. And don't blame business or wall street for their failures, we can bail them out when needed. Smart editorial.

Utah Soldier
Bountiful, UT

@LDS Liberal -

it sounds to me like there is more to the story about your house. I have owned my house for 15 years (so it was bought about the same time as yours). However, it is worth abou 180% (yes, almost double) what we paid for it. Some who play by the rules do win.

Conservative
Cedar City, UT

Friends, quit pointing the Finger Of Blame.

The economic crisis we are in is caused by 2 main factors, neither of which can be blamed on others:

(1) Housing value inflation. We all experienced it. Some sat tight, some sold high, some borrowed against inflated equity.

(2) China and India are taking over both energy supplies (oil, coal) and about to take over production. We all buy from them.

The world has already changed. There is no going back. We're still a First World country, but China and India (and Brazil) are almost there, too.

Gildas
LOGAN, UT

Save more and spend less. Sounds good to me. I can't find any fault with this advice and I too hope that many people will depart from the error of their ways. Then they would not tolerate any more congresses that do the exact opposite.

It will be interesting to see what will occur at the ballot box in the months ahead. Will people support the one republican presidential candidate (congressman Paul) who will seek to follow this sage advice, slash spending and tax less, allowing the people to have more to save. Such a congress, if it ever comes into being, will at lest lead the people right, by exemplifying frugality, living within its means and paying off debt asap.

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