To "LDS Liberal | 3:37 p.m." I think that he would see it favorably.
The reason is simple.As Communist China is adopting more capitalism,
the people are experiencing more freedom. The more experience they have with
freedom, the more freedom they will desire. Once China is truely free, they
will allow missionaries into China, and the Lord's work can be accomplished in
that nation.See "Does capitalism lead to democracy, and
how?" in the NY Times and "In Defense of Global Capitalism" at
Save more and spend less. Sounds good to me. I can't find any fault with this
advice and I too hope that many people will depart from the error of their ways.
Then they would not tolerate any more congresses that do the exact opposite.It will be interesting to see what will occur at the ballot box in the
months ahead. Will people support the one republican presidential candidate
(congressman Paul) who will seek to follow this sage advice, slash spending and
tax less, allowing the people to have more to save. Such a congress, if it ever
comes into being, will at lest lead the people right, by exemplifying frugality,
living within its means and paying off debt asap.
Friends, quit pointing the Finger Of Blame.The economic crisis we
are in is caused by 2 main factors, neither of which can be blamed on others:
(1) Housing value inflation. We all experienced it. Some sat
tight, some sold high, some borrowed against inflated equity.(2)
China and India are taking over both energy supplies (oil, coal) and about to
take over production. We all buy from them. The world has already
changed. There is no going back. We're still a First World country, but China
and India (and Brazil) are almost there, too.
@LDS Liberal - it sounds to me like there is more to the story about
your house. I have owned my house for 15 years (so it was bought about the same
time as yours). However, it is worth abou 180% (yes, almost double) what we
paid for it. Some who play by the rules do win.
Get use to a lower standard of living, it comes with a surplus of cheap labor.
And don't blame business or wall street for their failures, we can bail them out
when needed. Smart editorial.
re: The Real Maverick | 8:43 a.m. Dec. 27, 2011But, Someone (can't
recall who?) once said, "Corporations are people too."
Consumer spending is often considered a plus for the economy. I think you are
wise, though, to see that this does not extend to credit spending. Thank you for
"The US is quickly resembling communism and socialism. Just look at the
leaders and advisors to the president"...." you are wrong once
Re: ". . . private capitalism crashed and burned the last quarter of
2008."Private capitalism hasn't existed in the securities,
insurance, and banking industries since Roosevelt -- TR, not FDR.The
2008 crash, like the three crashes between 1906 and WWI, the 1929 crash, the 3
[or 4, depending on your views] crashes between 1932 and 1954, and the 1971,
1978/9, and 1987 crashes are all attributable solely to "progressive"
market tinkering, resulting capital uncertainty, followed by ill-advised,
ill-timed, short-sighted, sophomoric attempts to resolve uncertainty with
politically limited tools, wholly unsuited to the task.TR used a
 crash to justify his tinkering. Every "progressive" since has
used the same or similar lame excuse, but they all amount to attempts to buy
votes by favoring one political constituency over another.The 2008
crash is directly attributable to "progressive" [Barney Frank/Chris
Dodd] tinkering with Fannie and Freddie, and reactions to it. It's being used
by Obama as his excuse for a new round of crony-progressive tinkering.Leading, inevitably, to a new crash.
Redshirt1701 | 1:36 p.m. Dec. 27, 2011 Deep Space 9, Ut RedShirt -- Answer just this ONE question for us all please.....How do think Pres. Ezra Taft Benson today would think, feel, or say about
America's Capitalists trade deficeit to Communist Red China?Favorably or Un-Favorably?You are a Free Trade advocate.Does
Free Trade mean to the expense and detrement of America as a whole?I
think Pres. Benson must be rolling over in his grave right now of the likes of
your pure Capitalistic "ilk".
The Great Recession was not created by, run or extended by runaway consumer
spending. It was created by and ran on fraudlenlty bundled and marketed
securites by insufficiently regulated financial entities.
I think you conservatives need to understand that private capitalism crashed and
burned the last quarter of 2008. The banking, housing, and all the other
"private" industries are on government life support, which support
unfortunately doesn't benefit (much) the 99%.
threedegreecougar | 12:45 p.m. Dec. 27, 2011 Kaysville, UT Agreed!I laugh at the irony at those like Mr. RedShirt you
hate Americans trying to make good against the truly evil excesses of Corporte
Capitialism on WallStreet, Banks, Defense Contractors, and Oil Companies....All while they gut, clean and off-load anything not bolted to American
soil to COMMUNIST Red China, all in the holy name of Capitalism.
To "threedegreecougar | 12:33 p.m" you are wrong once again. The US
is quickly resembling communism and socialism. Just look at the leaders and
advisors to the president. The president has multiple advisors who are
anti-capitalists and/or self avowed socialists or communists. Why would he have
those type of people advising him if he didn't believe in socialism also.When Ezra Taft Benson wasy saying that Communism and Socialism were
wrong he was a Prophet. He was not the President of the Church yet, but was one
of 15 living Prophets leading the LDS church. Are you saying that you know more
about the plans of Satan than the Prophets?You are ignoring the
quote from Hinkley that proclaimed the importance of agency over force.
Socialism fails that check also because it requires force to maintain.You are forgetting that during that period from 1945 to the 1970's you also
had a massive push to minimize government intrusion into business. It is since
the 1970's that we have seen an increase in the size and power of the Federal
Why is it that conservatives ignore that the time of the most prosperity and
economic advancement in the U.S. - post 1945 to the early 1970s - when hard
working people could earn a good living - was a time when taxes on the very
wealthy were at their highest and the New Deal social policies were implemented?
Since then, the hard working individual has had their wages stagnate or decline,
while income for the wealthy has sky-rocketed, taxes on them have plummeted and
conservatives have attacked New Deal policies. But, alas, it's the hard working
individual who is blamed for the mess - the ones who can no longer find a job
because the wealthy mess up the financial system and use cheap labor overseas
Red Shirt:1) You ignore my main point that what you and other
conservatives fear today in the U.S. as resembling socialsim and communism is
fear mongering delusion. 2) I am not ignorant of other comments. They are easy
enough to do an internet search on and I have read the passages you give in the
past: a) They were not the prophet of the church when they said it - and Ezra
Taft Benson was a political radical who inserted personal interpretations into
his rhetoric. He was so radical he considered Dwight Eisenhower a friend of
communism. John Widstoe's book is not part of the LDS scriptural canon, and as
such is personal opinion only. Brigham Young lived in an age when socialism as
it was known in the 20th century did not exist. The conference report message
only references communism, which as a political system in practice never
reflected the utopian theory of socialisms - communism as a political system
from the beginning was perverted into totalitarianism in the service of a very
It's all about greed. Which party is the party of greed and which party is about
the greater good? Which party is all for corporate greed with a disappearing
middle class and which party wants a stronger middle class?What made the
US a strong economy to begin with was people spending with debt. Only the 1% can
pay cash for their 2nd home and large boats.
To "threedegreecougar | 11:47 a.m. " you are wrong. First when saying
that Ezra Taft Benson and Marion G. Romney were not prophets when they said that
Socialism is wrong, and second by assuming that they are the only ones who have
spoken out against it. Benson and Romney were both members of the Quorum of 12
Apostles when they spoke out againt socialism. That quorum are sustained as
prophets, seers and revelators. Say what you want, they were prophets.Since you are ignorant of other quotes from prophets, here are a few:Elder John Widstow's book Evidences and Reconciliations (vol. 1) states that a
"The self-called liberal is usually one who has broken with the fundamental
principles or guiding philosophy of the group to which he belongs....Socialists
and communists are the liberals of today."From Brigham Young
"We heard Brother Taylors exposition of what is called Socialism this
morning. What can they do? Live on each other and beg. It is a poor, unwise and
very imbecile people who cannot take care of themselves. Source: President
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 14, p. 21. 1870.Also
read "First Presidency Message, in Conference Report, Apr. 1942"
RedShirt | 10:49 a.m. Dec. 27, 2011 if the prophets have also warned
against Socialism and Communism, or any system that uses force rather than
leaving it up to the individual, is true, some of us will conclude that they are
false prophets.All systems that control the actions of their group
exercise an element of force, even Mormonism. Please, please,
please tell us what your definition of Socialism is? And if you can, the
definitions that were used by those prophets.
To RedShirt:Only two general authorities (not prophets) reference
socialism in General Conference proceedings. Ezra Taft Benson and Marion G.
Romney (neither as prophet). As we know, Benson was an extreme political
radical. Even FBI director Herbert Hoover wanted nothing to do with Benson's
form of radicalism. And the types of services that exist in the U.S. today have
nothing to do with the types of socialism and communism that have existed
historically in other countries. Conservatives who invoke the fallacy of the
U.S. system today being anything close to the socialism of the past or even the
more leftist countries of today are just engaging in disingenuous scare tactics.
To "Mike in Cedar City | 11:08 a.m." because the United Order is
capitalism where you own your farm, and are asked (not forced) to give your
excess to others. You see, this is a voluntary system where you, and only you
determine what is excess. The government or church did not determine what was
excess.Actually, for socialism to work, it does require force to
maintain. Yes some people are dumb enough to vote in socialism, but it
eventually destroys their nation. Just look at Greece. They voted for all of
the people and programs that have caused them to go under.The things
that you call "socialized" are not socialism. What LDS Liberal and
others want is socialism or communism. If you want I can supply you many quotes
from various LDS Prophets stating that Socialism is Satan's plan.
Re: "You can't be taken seriously. You are too ideologically
anchored."Pot, meet kettle.
Hey, Redshirt. If capitalism is so good (and Godly) why did Joseph Smith
introduce the United Order? Socialist ideas are never compulsary when the
people decide to implement them based upon democratic consent. We socialize
many things, consider roads and highways, police forces, fire departments,
public schools, our Army, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard, just to name a few.
I played by the rules. I'm debt free, maxed out on 401K. Because of Wall Street
shenanigans, lost half my net worth in the 2008 debacle. And when President
Romney takes away my Social Security and medicare because I'm an
"entitlement freeloader" (even though I've paid for it for 40 years),
I guess I can just be happy I did 'THE RIGHT THING' all those years.
To "LDS Liberal | 10:33 a.m." the prophets have also warned againt
Socialism and Communism, or any system that uses force rather than leaving it up
to the individual.Another thing taht you fail to recognize is the
simple fact that the economic boom/bust was a direct result of Government
intervention in the market. It was not the "Pride and GREED of
Capitalism" that failed. It was the attempt of governments to control and
manipulate something that they don't understand.You support a system
that would compel people and nations. According to Gordon B. Hinkley
"[Opposition] has been felt in the undying efforts of many, both within and
without the Church, to destroy faith, to belittle, to demean, to bear false
witness, to tempt and allure and induce our people to practices inconsistent
with the teachings and standards of this work of God...The war goes on. It is
waged across the world over the issues of agency and compulsion."The other problem that you have is that you are relying on a group of
millionaires with little to no business sense to make things better.
If the LDS church and its business interests (Deseret News) are so concerned
about consumer debt, why did it give American Express's CFO, Gary Crittenden,
the BYU Marriott School of Management's Distinguished Alumni award a few years
ago? And why is he currently an LDS Area Authority?Crittenden later
left American Express for his "dream job" (his words) as CFO of
Citigroup in February 2007. During that time, when Citigroup was using every
scientifically known method to influence consumer behavior to take on more and
more debt, Crittenden took in more than 30 million dollars in compensation for
just over two years of work. He is the only individual known to have been fined
by the SEC for providing false statements to the SEC regarding an institution's
false reporting of financials during the mortgage fraud criss.
"The Great Recession was driven, to a large extent, by runaway consumer
spending." First, you should not be using the past tense. Second,
consumer debt was driven by working class people trying to maintain a standard
of living they had come to expect in the face of 30 years of stagnant real wages
(what money will buy) and rising prices. This they tried to support by working
more and more hours, hardly irresponsible. This, as always, is the song at the
Deseret News - the evils of society are always created by individuals -
especially the working class, not organizations. You can't be taken seriously.
You are too ideologically anchored.
Just one quick question Red Shirt..how would purpose to create 30 year mortages
without freddie and fannie? 30 year mortages are the backbone of the american
home building industry. Take away 30 year mortages and poof one of americas
major job creators disapears.
RedShirt | 9:36 a.m. Dec. 27, 2011 USS Enterprise, UT To "LDS
Liberal | 8:53 a.m. " did you buy a home as an investment or for a place to
live?Also FYI, the only people who have lost equity in their homes
are people who have purchased large homes that are difficult to sell regardless
of the current market. Those who have purchased modest homes lost little to no
equity.=================== 1. Your premise that the
ONLY people who lost equity is false.Everyone lost equity RedShirt --
Everyone, even you.Our "modest" house lost over 1/3 of
it's total value.And we stayed ahead because we bought 18 years ago, and
sank every penney we had into remodeling and paying down the principle....not
paying for Disneyland vacations and driving a new SUV.1. We have
never owned a new home.2. We have never owned a new car.3. Our
children never all had their own bedrooms.We did what the Prophet
asked, Pride and GREED of Capitalism failed.Only the Banks, Oil and
WallStreet got bailed out, and are making huge record profits again.The 1% just got richer.The middle class paid for it.
To "LDS Liberal | 8:53 a.m. " did you buy a home as an investment or
for a place to live?Also FYI, the only people who have lost equity
in their homes are people who have purchased large homes that are difficult to
sell regardless of the current market. Those who have purchased modest homes
lost little to no equity.What is your solution? Do you want more
government intervention? How would you have handled the mortgage crisis that
was precipitated by the failures of Freddie and Fannie (the government owned
I lived a prudent Middle-class.Unlike the Stock market, speculative
investments, and other get-rich-quick gimmicks --- We listened and
obeyed and and Investing EVERYTHING into our house, and avoiding all credit card
debt.We were "debt-free", including our vehilces.My entire life's savings (i.e., our home - Real Estate)Which has been
for generations in America the ONE secure investment completely vaporized
by the economy.This letter is not entirely true since it only
accounts for credit card debt -- a loss of perhaps $10,000 - $20,000.Meanwhile, the lion's share of personal losses come from those like myself,
who've lost $200,000 - $300,000 in equity by those same banks who got Government
bail-outs.Play by the rules, and you loose.Who's paying
for it?I am.In taxes AND in losses.This is the number
reason I despise Capitalism and Republicans.
Blame Main Steet for Wall Street's errors? Yeah, sounds about right
for a conservative newspaper. Lets just ignore what wall street, the banks, and
deregulation did and blame everything on the average joe.
@John Charity SpringLast time I checked it wasn't the younger generation
running the show. Its the older generation, YOUR generation. Your generation
has spent us into oblivion. The Right and the Left seem to have no shortage of
old men willing to spend us into the ground.
Not saying we shouldn't be personally fiscally responsible..however if we were
in fact to increase our savings to say a 10% level which many advisors preach,
in order to withstand the next great recession (DN)..it would cause the next
great recession. Our economy is absolutely dependent on continued consumer
spending at increasing rates. Every corporation is obsessed with growth, and
all of their business plans are based on growth. Growth can only occur if
spending grows. John Charity, you absolutley need to see Woody
Allens Midnight in Paris. Previous generations....Woody will put that in
perspective for you.Patriot, Liberal philosopy is a failure, pure
and simple. What is liberal philosophy? Here's another fact. Bush deficit '08
500billion, Bush deficit '09 1.9 trillion..difference great recession.
Recession instigated debt 1.9 trillion per year times three years and walla 6
trillion dollar debt. It's economic reality, not some liberal conspiracy.
Debt is debt. Simple as that.I'm not sure why we could say that the
US is the richest country in the world. That's like saying the guy with the
biggest home loan, car loan, boat loan, maxed out credit cards; is the richest
man on the block. When compared to the neighbor with the paid off old car, paid
off small home and yard, paid off canoe, and has money in savings....to me that
is the richest man on the block.
I would be the last to disagree with the News that we need to reign in credit
spending, but the editorial seems to blame the "great recession"
mostly on the consumer. For example, it blames consumers that bought more house
than they needed or could afford. This argument ignores Wall Street excesses,
run away government spending and borrowing to fund two simultaneous long wars,
and an ill advised tax cut that eliminated the budget surplus existing at the
end of the Clinton Administration. The economy is bad today, not so much
because of inappropriate consumer credit spending but more because so many had
no choice but to use credit because their jobs went to India, China, Mexico, and
India. Finally, consider the increasing disparity in wealth between the rich and
the poor and those of moderate means over the last 40 years or so. What role
has that played in the health of our economy?
Just the opposite of what President George W. Bush told us to do. He told us it
was patriotic to spend more.
This editorial is correct. Our society should be condemned for its greedy,
materialistic ways. If we do not return to the values of the past, we will have
no future.Past generations knew about the importance of saving and
buying only what they already had money set aside for. These generations
practiced moderation, prudence, and self-control.Now, the younger
generation only practices immediate gratification, without regard for the
consequences. These folks will take on debt at the drop of a hat to buy such
unnecessary items as video games, Ipods, and televisions. They enslave
themselves to debt for years for a few hours of pleasure.These
financially unresponsible freely spend more than they can ever repay because
they think the government will bail them out. They fail to realize that the
government no longer has the funds to do so.
"The Great Recession was driven, to a large extent, by runaway consumer
spending."The Obama presidency has been bases upon what?
Runaway GOVERNMENT borrowing and spending. Is it any wonder then that we are
worse off today than in 2009? 2012 will hopefully bring sanity back to
government by first flushing out the swamp starting with the White House and
then doing the same in congress. Liberal ideology is a failure. Pure and simple.
It was the same liberals that ran both houses of congress from 2006 - 2010 that
created the insane easy lending scam and oversaw the banking committee (Frank
and Dodd)who gave rosy projections on Fanny and Fredie Mac which cost investors
billions. Facts are facts!!!
I read the Department of Justice is not going to resist internet gambling so the
states can now tax it. The mentality promoted by gambling is that if you are
lucky then you be rich. The federal and various state governments have promoted
this mentality so that they can tax it. They never learn.
This editorial leaves out the underlying cause of increasing debt, and that is
diminished economic opportunity for working people. Even during the so called
boom years of 2003-2007, median household income was declining. People borrow to
maintain a middle class lifestyle, a lifestyle that is no longer possible with
an income in the middle ranges of the income distribution. What we think of as a
middle class lifestyle is really only possible when income gets into the 80th
percentile range and over.Although living within our means is
certainly wise advice for all, accepting declining living standards is tough for
a lot of people to bear.