Pagan writes: "My point, was that everyone where is eager to lable this as
a Hate Crime"Arson or hate crime? Who cares which it is as
long as the perpetrators are punished? For the man sitting behind bars for 10
years it really doesn't make any difference to him if it is because he burned
down a church for kicks or whether he did it because he doesn't like the fact
that they believe in marriage between one man and one woman.
'I am have trouble associating the murder of a gay student with the torching of
an LDS church house. Is Pagan trying to infer that these two accused arsonists
are gay and therefore had some perceived axe to grind?' - Flying Finn | 6:14
p.m. Dec. 19, 2011 No. That's...probably why you should
ask...me. My point, was that everyone where is eager to lable this
as a Hate Crime (Liberal Ted | 8:03 a.m. Dec. 19, 2011) without: 1)
Any evidence. aka, not in the article. 2) These same persons also
advocate to EXCEMPT hate crimes... done for orientation.
Or is shooting a child in a computer class just more 'expressions of love?' For the sinner? Of course Rifleman points out that I am
disingenuous. Because he knows me, so well. (Sarcasm)
Re: Pagan | 4:58 p.m. Dec. 19, 2011 "However, I would like to point
out that resorting to ARSON about any disagreements, is WRONG."I'm glad we can all agree with your disingenuous observation that burning a
church is wrong. Actually it is a second degree felony here in Utah - U.C.A.
Pagan writes: "US teen sentenced for killing gay student"I
am have trouble associating the murder of a gay student with the torching of an
LDS church house. Is Pagan trying to infer that these two accused arsonists are
gay and therefore had some perceived axe to grind?
Bishop Sorenson, that5 is a nice Christian attitude to have re forgiveness.
Sorry, Bish, no go. These kids - so-called young adults did the crime and now
they should pay the penalty.Ms Yi did not indicate whether or not the
perps were LDS; If they were somewhere along the way, there has been a
breakdown. If not, there is another problem that needs addressing. Forgiveness
is like banging a nail into a piece of wood, extracting it, filling it and
painting over it. Whatever cosmetic surgery is done to that piece of wood, the
hole (like the crime) still remains. I hope the County judge gets tough -
sorry, too many people have suffered over these two clowns.
To be clear, if evidence is found that the teens were TARGETING the lds church
for some reason, I would actually SUPPORT that they be charged with Hate Crime
legislation. However, 'watch ABC/Fox' is not specific enough to
easily get more details on this story. Writting '666' on wall does
not target anyone specifically with exception of the New Testiment.
This, is a hate crime: *'US teen sentenced for killing gay student'
- By Greg Risling - AP - Published by DSNews - 12/19/11 'VENTURA,
California A California teenager was sentenced on Monday to 21 years in state
prison for killing a gay student during a computer lab class...'
Brandon McInerney shot Larry King in the back of the head. Twice. So, while I can understand the desire to see justice done, a few
points: 1) The descriptions are so vauge, and supporting evidence so
few that I cannot say this was TARGETING lds members, with exception to their
dollars. and 2) People are dying.
Re: Bill in Nebraska | 12:17 p.m. Dec. 19, 2011 "The police have
stated that ...... just a burglary gone wrong"According to ABC
Channel 4 detectives found multiple" points of combustion. I submit that
this was much much more that just a burglary gone wrong. The primary similarity
between burglary and arson is that they are both found in the Utah Criminal
'Either way it should go down as a hate crime...' - Liberal Ted | 8:03 a.m. Dec.
19, 2011 Can someone please cite the story, date and author? Also, you have to prove the teens set the fire to create an atmosphere
of fear for, specifically, LDS members. I have not seen anything in
comments about the teens in this regard. I have seen ZERO quotes from the teens
themselves that they were targeting the LDS church, or it's members.
That said, I am glad they were caught. I disagree with the LDS
church about many things. Rifleman will most likely continue to obsess about
this statemnt. However, I would like to point out that resorting to
ARSON about any disagreements, is WRONG. It is NOT accpetable to
work to CREATE that atmosphere of fear and intimidation when you disagree with a
group, or person. Change their hearts and minds.
Resorting to crime, is NOT ok.
We are instructed not to leave any cash in the Church. However, Bishop's
receive tithing sometimes at odd times other than on a Sunday. Instead of
taking it home, they generally will place it in the center drawer of their desks
in the Bishop's office. This was probably one envelope given to the Bishop
after or just before Sunday services. He just locked it in his desk. This is a
common practice amoung Bishop's through out the Church. Possibly since it is so
much of a common practice, Bishop's will now be instructed to take it home. All
of the tithing envelopes have the Bishop's home address on them. He has a box
at home that is just for tithing envelopes. The where abouts is known to almost
every member of the Bishop's Family.I've read most of the articles
on this and no where have I been able to find the 666 information. I have found
where they set fire to several areas of the Church. The police have stated that
they do not believe a hate crime was committed, just a burglary gone wrong.
Re: Kalindra | 9:51 a.m. Dec. 19, 2011 "Where in the story does it
say anything about graffiti or multiple attempts to start fires?"Try Fox 13 for additional details.These men set out to destroy an
area of the building prepared for a community fundraiser for a local man
battling cancer. That pretty much defines "cold hearted" in my book.
These suspects should be certified as adults and charged with a hate crime.
You can check abc. They won't let me post the link. But just do a google
search.Either way the vandalism and the fire is too extreme and
violent. These youths should be charged and have to pay back the cost of the
damage they caused. Society has gone too far the other way, where
we are afraid to punish criminals. What is the first thing just about every
criminal does when they get caught? They start the same list of excuses, then
they claim how brutal and rude everyone else is, then they blame the victim,
then they plead temporary insanity etc.Why have criminals become
patients? Why is the welfare system supporting 50% of this country? There needs
to be a changed mindset. Try driving through SLC and see how many J-Walkers flip
you off and try and kick your car as you drive on the road. Try talking to dog
owners that refuse to pick up after their animal, they don't care if their dog
leaves piles in your yard to pick up. So much for civilization, when courtesy
goes out the window.
Kalindra:These are details that, while not in this news artcile,
have been shared in several other news reports on this arson.
@ Liberal Ted: Where in the story does it say anything about graffiti or
multiple attempts to start fires?
So why did the kids spray 666 on the walls and work really hard with multiple
start points of the fires to burn the building down?Either way it
should go down as a hate crime and they should face justice and serve their time
and work to pay off the damages they have inflicted.On a side
note:What is wrong with kids? Has anyone else run into the entitled
mentality that so many kids have? They watch the news and learn to cry victim on
everything. When I have kicked kids off of private property, they claim their
rights are being violated, then they give 50,000 practiced excuses, then they
throw a tantrum, then they claim they have a right to be on private
property....I can't number the times they said they're going home to get a
weapon to come back and harm me. Which then gets the police involved. To whom
they disrespect and use their trespass notice as tp as they're leaving. The
parents should start spanking their kids or disciplining them. The kids of zero
repsect for adults or authority or private property. My guess is their parents
have the same mentality
Following up on a tip, police arrested to juveniles ages 16 and 17 in
connection with the fire.I know I'm being picky but you should use
'two' and not 'to'.
Wow. Seven dollars? During my stint as the Ward Clerk (and as probably the
worst Ward Clerk our ward had ever seen) we were repeatedly instructed to never
leave cash overnight at the church and to always deposit tithing and other funds
at the bank that day. We followed procedures to escort the person carrying the
money to the bank to drop it off. In a sense, I'm surprised they found that
they even found seven dollars.