Number of 'religious charter schools' continues to grow — along with criticism
Published: Saturday, Dec. 17 2011 1:00 p.m. MST
lds4gaymarriage:"If they stay for religious instruction, the
extra cost for teachers and utilities is not born by the state, but by the
school."In which case the lights and heat would have to be
turned off. And the pencils and paper would have to lie, unused. "The state money was already spent for the secular education."Money is fungible (look it up). Thus, money paid for salaries,
supplies, utilities, etc., for the school is not identifiable to any expense
element or parts of expense elements.
RE: The Atheist That is NOT a fundamental truth, but a reckless,
ignorant and dangerous opinion, the kind that breeds hate, starts with the
removal any mention of religion or the mention of God in the public square (such
as a school) and leads to terrible events like the holocaust.
If the ACLU is against it, there must be some good to it, no matter what it is.
They have brought more harm to the educational system than any other entity,
including unions and bad teachers. They began suing schools in the late 60's and
things have gone downhill since then.I believe the
fallacy/misunderstanding of "separation of church and state" has been
carried too far. One of the reasons that Europe is going under culturally is
because they have become a completely secular society and have lost their moral
bearings. At least in America we have some semblance of religion and that's what
makes us great. If the school was doing such a good job, I think it
could have been allowed to continue. But it sounds like they cut off their nose
to spite their face.
We need to get away from this charter school movement. The reality is charter
schools are a way for parents to create a faux private school without paying the
associated fees. They pretend to be private schools, but at the expense of the
public. The reality is that most students are best served by their neighborhood
schools. The children learn to associate and get along with their neighbors.
They have the best extracurricular opportunities. Neighborhood
public schools struggle because the community doesn't get behind them as they
used to in the past. If you want to fix your neighborhood schools, get involved.
Attend the sporting events. Go to the fine arts' performances. Congratulate your
neighborhood kids for the academic successes. We all want to place blame
somewhere, but it's about time we all step up and support the schools where we
Wrz - "If they stay for religious instruction, the extra cost for teachers
and utilities is not born by the state, but by the school."In
which case the lights and heat would have to be turned off. And the pencils and
paper would have to lie, unused. KJK I think you and
lds4gaymarriage are talking past each other. From his/her statement you quote
above, it appears to me that he/she is assuming, correctly or not, that the
school building is owned by a church or other private group. If the state pays
the group a fixed amount per child to cover the cost of teachers, books, school
supplies, utilities, etc... for providing education to the state mandated
levels, then any money the school spends on teachers, books, school supplies,
utilities, etc...come directly out of the group's pocket and not the state's.
Since the group pays for the utilities, teachers, etc... itself, the added costs
for staying open longer increases the group's cost/expenses. The state pays for
nothing additional and therefore there is no church/state conflict.
The truth,Some opinions correspond with reality. Mine does. Yours
does not.Enough said.
Obviously, it all depends on "what the meaning of 'is' is". Mr. Lin
wants a wantered down national religion which is basically secularist in nature.
Mr. Cooper from Fordham wants the neighborhood to support religion. The cusp
of the argument lies in whether TiZA is a legitimate school or just a front for
an agenda. From the information given, it is hard to tell.
@Monsieur le prof:"If the school was doing such a good job, I
think it could have been allowed to continue."If the school is
teaching religion it should not be allowed to continue. Why? Because it
violates the 1st Article of the Amendments to the US Constitution.And the school can't announce the end of the regular school day then commence
religious instruction, using the same facility, teachers, supplies, etc.
Furthermore, wearing the required Muslim garb would also be a violation... just
as much as Christian praying in school.@Kevin J. Kirkham:"If the state pays the group a fixed amount per child to cover the cost
of teachers, books, school supplies, utilities, etc..."The
'fixed' amount has to be derived in some manner. It's not just picked out of
thin air. Someone, somehow developed the fixed amount by adding up the
components of running a typical school.The only way to run a charter
school and keep it from even the appearance of violating church/state separation
is to exclude all religious teaching at the school... before, during, and after
so-called regular class... or close it down.
wrz@Kevin J. Kirkham: "If the state pays the group a fixed amount per
child to cover the cost of teachers, books, school supplies, utilities,
etc..."The 'fixed' amount has to be derived in some manner.
It's not just picked out of thin air. Someone, somehow developed the fixed
amount by adding up the components of running a typical school.KJK -
The fixed amount would be what the state pays every district for each student in
the district. All districts are funded on a per pupil basis. Public schools
hate private schools and home schoolers since they decrease their funding if the
kids aren't attending public school. Some districts in other parts of the
country give privately sponsored charter schools 80% of the per pupil funding
the district receives.If a charter school can educate kids to the
state specs for less money that the state gives them, then the charter school is
making money. If the school uses that money to pay for teachers, utilities,
materials, etc... to teach religion, no problem. It's using its own profits to
do so. The state still gets an educated kid, perhaps only at 80% of the
To TheOcean | 3:00 p.m. Dec. 17, 2011 Can religion and charters
coexist in Utah according to our Utah State Constitution? I don't know. Legal
and constitutional experts--what do you think? --------------------------Sure they can, PROVIDED that the charter
schools are treated as private schools and no public money goes to their
Religious charter schools are a thinly veiled attempt to suck public resources
from society, and in that way it is like a parasite. If religions cannot support
themselves from their own "customers", then they have no business
being subsidized with tax dollars of any kind.
the truth wrote:"RE: The Atheist That is NOT a
fundamental truth, but a reckless, ignorant and dangerous opinion, the kind that
breeds hate, starts with the removal any mention of religion or the mention of
God in the public square (such as a school) and leads to terrible events like
the holocaust."DN monitors, since when are you in the habit of
allowing such abusive language to be used toward another commenter?The truth,Please backup your assertion. Show us where Hitler and
Nazism removed mention of religion from the public/government. And further show
how the holocaust was the result. Please be sure to explain Hitler's frequent
Biblical references, and his calling the Jews "Christ-killers."
Sounds like the school was simply more accommodating than most to children's
religious practices, such as prayer and Ramadan. That is something that a
Muslim student would be entitled to sue a school to allow. Franbkly, this did not hurt anyone. The interest of the state and the public
is ensuring that children receive an education so they can be salf-supporting
members of society. NOT to socialize them OUT of their religion. School
vouchers should be allowed so these issues don't even come up, in the same way
someone who has earned VA education benefits can use them aty BYU or even a
RE: lds4gaymarriage YOu say:"If religion is being
taught there is harm... because the US Constitution and Supreme Court decisions
clearly show that no money, facilities, resources, etc., are to be used to
foster religion of any sort...The fixed amount per pupal is computed using all
costs including materials, utilities, etc. So any use would be fostering
religion."I can not find that such and idea anywhere in the
constitution.The 1st admendment is brief only says that CONGRESS can
not play favorites or disfavorites to any church or religious organzation,
nor can it in religios worship,further more religios free speech is
also protected.IF the supreme court has gone further they are
wrong.As I have stated before the state constitution must need be
rewritten, as additional onerous restrictions were written in the state
constitution out peoples fears of the mormons.There was never to be
any enmity between government and religion,that is a modern notion by
secuilarists and progressivies to remove God from the schools, and schools
are not federally controlled nor should they be.
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