Tekakaromatagi asserts:"I am a scientist and I am not an
atheist."I declare that you are not a scientist at all. Or if
we stretch the meaning of the word, you would be, at best, a very poor one.You write: "...science has shortcomings about even basic things
like, "Why is gravity so weak?" "What is charge?"That a person can generate questions for which there are not yet answers does
not detract from science anymore than it proves the existence of a god. Indeed,
put in such terms, your god is little more than a "god of the gaps" -
a convenient fiction invented to explain what cannot yet be explained. Such a
god-of-the-gaps has been increasingly irrelevant as science has advanced, with
the trajectory being quite discouraging for faith in god. Good luck with that.
Your god is fading into nothingness.
I think of an "athiest" as a person who does not believe in God and an
"agnostic" or "deist" as one who doesn't believe in
"organized religion" or church, but still believe in God. There are
hundreds of religions all aspousing different beliefs, what makes one any better
than another? Religion is just an earlier form of government, ie. control of
the masses by a self-appointed (self-righteous) group of "elite".
Bill in NebraskaJust because there is scientific evidence to support
some biblical stories such as the parting of the Red Sea it does not mean that
science has proven that "God did it"....but rather it explains that
there is a natural explanation rather than a supernatural explanation. Just
because some biblical archeology confirms biblical places does not mean the
events attributed to it really took place. The Resurrection of Jesus cannot be
considered scientifically because it has never claimed to be a reproducible
event. To people of science, dead means dead. They have no evidence that
anything that was dead ever came back to life spontaneously or that the world
stood still for 24 hours for that matter! Where is your scientific support of
that assertion, Bill?In science, everything is provisional. Being
provisional is not a weakness or a sign that a conclusion is weak. Being
provisional is a smart, pragmatic tactic because we can never be sure what we'll
come across when we round the next corner. No believer has been able to
demonstrate, or even strongly suggest, that there are any events in the universe
which requires some alleged "god" to explain them.
A voice of Reason says: "I simply feel that tolerance requires
respecting other people's right to believe as they wish."---I agree with you.Where we differ is when you start to make
others live by your belief system. I don't mind that you *believe*
something is wrong. I don't mind that you *believe* there is some god watching
your every move (as if he didn't have better things to do with such a vast
universe to govern). I don't mind that you go to church every sunday.I mind that you use your belief to discriminate against your fellow men; who
may or may not share your belief system. That you send the message to children
who are glbt that they're just "not good enough". That you use your
god to justify these things, when in fact, your god told you otherwise (do unto
others...).D&C 134,4 ... "unless their religious opinions
prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others";
@LasvegaspamWhere did you get the idea we haven't learned about
spiritual things? My experience is not the same as yours. You ASSUME neither I
nor my children learned about things spiritual when we actually did. We even
went to spiritual places called churches to be taught about spiritual things. We
have all sought spiritual knowledge, but we have also learned about non-belief
as well. Have you? I have extensively explored religion as well as non-belief
systems and it is always ongoing. Also--it's not as if we have never had any
religious influence whatsoever from religious friends, family, and society.
Neither I nor my children lack spiritual knowledge. However, despite learning
about spiritual things we find that the evidence, logic, and reason is lacking
so we had no alternative but to believe as we do. I KNOW that religion is taught
so that is why I sent my children to church to learn about it plus religious
information is everywhere for one to learn about it. Indoctrination
and coercion is not freedom of choice, which means that people can choose what
ever they want out of the options they are given. I gave my children
@ Tekakaromatagi:Scientist are learning more everyday how complex
are the cosmos and that the universe may have many parallels and dimension, but
how does that imply a god. To the contrary it seems as something so vast and
complex is beyond creation and control or subordinate to a diety. The diety
would have to be more enormous than the multi-universes, and from where would
the beyond imagination diety and its power have come from. More probable is that
nature itself is god, so to speak.
I am a scientist and I am not an atheist. The title creates the impression that
scientists are atheist. The deeper I dig into science, the more I see that
science has shortcomings about even basic things like, "Why is gravity so
weak?" "What is charge?"It seems like the strong
nuclear force (the thing that holds protons together in an atom) leaks into
other dimensions than the three that I know, what are those dimensions? Some
think that gravity is weak because it is leaking in from a parallel universe.
What else might be leaking in from that parallel universe? Or leaking into it
Joggle: My story: I was introduced to religion as a child by my parents
allowing me and my siblings, at the request of a neighbor, to attend the Baptist
church down the block from us in Chicago, though neither of them ever attended.
My father also foolishly believed that children should be allowed to make their
own decision about religion (he being raised in a Catholic home). He believed
that suddenly at age 18 or so kids who had been raised without any knowledge
whatsoever of things spiritual would seek that out. Well, three out of four of
my siblings chose no faith at all as adults, just as your kids have. What a
surprise. Religious faith is not passed to our kids in the
bloodstream; it must be taught. And dont give me that baloney about not wanting
to coerce and indoctrinate when every OTHER aspect of family life involves just
that. In reality your children lost a lifetime of spiritual learning
opportunities, and so did you.
Voice of Reason: Thank you for the wonderful example of a true Latter-Day
Saint. The invitation was not one of trying to convert anyone or anything of
that nature. It was just an invitation to go and see the beauty of Temple
Square. So many get upset because a missionary or two will come forward to talk
about the LDS Church. I have given the same invitation to others to go and
visit Liberty Jail, Nauvoo and Winter Quarters. The same can be said of going
to Palmyra, New York and other historical cites of the LDS Church. Atheist and Joggle I respectively decline as a scientist once said that the
more science tries to disprove there is a God, the more they prove there is one.
Science has provent that approximately 2000 years ago in a time frame in April
that the Earth seemed to stand still for approximately 24 hours yet the Sun did
set and rise again. Science has proven that beside the so called reeds are of
the Red Sea, that winds in a certain direction will cause the Red Sea to
literally separate and split. Yet, these fascets are denied by many atheist.
@kitenoa"and watching football are all non-relgious daily events
"I think you underestimate the way football is frequently
treated. @A Voice of Reason"I invite you to visit temple
square and if willing, to view the nativity scene. I also extend the invitation
to all atheists, Christians, LDS, non-LDS, and all other groups of
people."You know... it's funny, when I was an LDS member I
steered clear of inviting any of my friends to any of these sorts of things
because I don't like even giving the appearance of trying to convert anyone. Now
that I've left the church I'm going to be suggesting going to Temple Square to
see the lights to non-LDS friends of mine.
I mentioned my Sunday School teacher before--Brother Frank Allan, who had us do
an exchange of beliefs with our friends from other churches, at our church and
in theirs. I never forgot that, or him. We all learned something...other
religions besides the one you belong to might teach you something, for instance,
how strong your testimony is in the faith you believe in.
@ VORI'm with The Atheist on your invitation! Perhaps we could
include a read of some atheist texts or scientific studies as well. Despite the
beauty of Temple Square during Christmas though....I will have to respectfully
decline due to a simple friendly visit to view it in a historical perspective
that turned into a prothylizing event that sent us immediately away.Otherwise...per this article: I was introduced to religion as a child. I also
introduced my children to religion by sending them to a small country church
because I believe all belief systems should be explored so a person makes an
educated and knowledgible decision about their personal beliefs. I don't believe
in forcing any child to believe what the parent believes because it makes their
choice coerced and indoctrinated. True choices don't from childhood
indoctrination. If one never explores or educates themselves about other
beliefs, religions, and non-belief how will they ever understand the
beliefs/religions of others, or whether they are really right....or even
possibly wrong? I think if you understand others beliefs as well as they do,
they'll eventually see that attempting to "educate" you is
unnecessary. Today my children are agnostic atheists!
A voice of Reason wrote:"I also extend the invitation to all
atheists, Christians, LDS, non-LDS, and all other groups of people. I personally
and I'm sure many others will be happy to share our message with you."Thank you for the invitation. Now let me return the favor. I invite you
to bring your wife and children to my office where I will "share my message
with you". We can have some coffee, maybe a glass of wine, and IF you have
a sincere heart, and are honest and have "real intent", you will see
the "truth" of MY message.Then, after you and your family
have seriously considered my message, I would be happy to accompany you to
Temple Square (for the umpteenth time).Deal?
Ranch, you clearly missed my entire point. The very point I was trying to make
to Pagan initially was that one can participate in something and not necessarily
agree with it.I watch, read, and listen to a lot of British
programming. There is a great deal of atheism in U.K. media because of the
demographics they cater to. I love the programming. I couldn't stress how much I
love it. I've seen some people take offense to those views and some who don't. I
don't get offended at a gay couple kissing, an atheist thinking every last
religious person on the planet is superstitious, and so on. I simply feel that
tolerance requires respecting other people's right to believe as they wish.
I believe most Americans are practicing atheists to some degree of their daily
lives. Getting a job, working for wages, spending money, and watching football
are all non-relgious daily events (8 hours or more a day). On the
other hand, religion is a useful part-time tradition for life death concerns (8
hours or more a year), and for important life events in between: like birth,
Christmases, marriage, death, or explaining the unknown universe etc.
'Pagan,Solstice Blessings to you! If you were tolerant of others'
beliefs (notice I didn't even say "respectful") and did not engage in
activities (public kiss-in) intentionally designed to provoke a reaction...' -
lost in DC | 10:10 a.m. Dec. 8, 2011 Your right. :)
'The buildings on Temple Square create the perfect atmosphere for a wedding or
ring ceremony.' - Temple Square Hospitality website *'Pictures
List for Your LDS Wedding' - LDS Wedding Pictures List website
'Work carefully with your wedding photographer to determine what types of shots
will be included throughout the wedding day. Consider must have shots like: 'Couple kissing' Thanks Lost. :) and Merry
lol, Pagan you got a real laugh out of that one.I don't worship
Santa or pine trees. I worship our Heavenly Father. I suspect that your family
is/was LDS and you were brought up in the church. You may have even read the
Book of Mormon. I think you know as much as anyone that the LDS Church doctrine
is calculated only to promote happiness and freedom as we have explained it.If you are welcomed into my peaceful home, and provoke contention, then
you either must accept that you willfully chose to conflict in my home. Or if
you still blame my rules, then I am guiltless regardless of my actions in your
own home. You can't provoke conflict because you don't believe what I do, IN MY
home, and call yourself tolerant. It defines intolerance.ToleranceI accept you doing whatever you want in your own home. I
do what I want in mine. But provoking people on temple square is essentially you
violating another persons home. We promote our views in democracy, sure... but
our home, our rules. If you can't even accept that then I am not the intolerant
Pagan,Solstice Blessings to you!If you were tolerant of
others' beliefs (notice I didn't even say "respectful") and did not
engage in activities (public kiss-in) intentionally designed to provoke a
reaction, you would be MORE than welcome on Temple Square. Hard to blame the
bees for the stings when you intentionally kick in the beehive.
'Pagan, Merry Christmas! I invite you to visit temple square...' - A
voice of Reason | 5:49 p.m. Dec. 7, 2011 I apologize.
Let me give you a more specific example. *Survey shows some LGBT
residents dont feel safe By Rosemary Winters SL Tribune 07/12/10
'A kiss between two men on the LDS Churchs Main Street Plaza that resulted in
trespassing charges. Again, I would LOVE to go to Temple. The lights
during winter and flowers during summer are VERY nice. And a pleasant view. But again... I would probably be arrested.
@VoR;I have a beautiful hand carved wooden Nativity Set. Just
because I don't believe that Christ was the son of god (is there even a god?)
doesn't mean there's no reason to enjoy the season.
My parents were both non religeous people, they stopped going to church shortly
after marrying 37 years ago. Growing up we had a tree, celebrated christmas,
went to midnight mass, had dinners, etc just like most religeous families. I
asked my parents one time why we celebrate if were not religous? They said we
celebrate for the joy of the season and culture of it, santa, presents,
christmas tree's, cookies, dinners, etc and all for all people, they arent even
found anywhere in the bible. As for mass, they said it was important for us kids
to see why others celebrate christmas. Over the years we went to many services
of other faiths. Its not surprising atheists take their kids to church, Most
atheists are not like what you see in media. Private Prayer in schools, crosses
on the highway, public nativity scenes, 10 commandments in courthouses, etc do
not offend or bother them and they in fact find it as an expression of our
culture. Its only when one's beliefs are used to directly Legislate anothers do
you find an issue.
'Pagan, Merry Christmas! I invite you to visit temple square...' - A
voice of Reason | 5:49 p.m. Dec. 7, 2011 I would VOR...
but I would probably be arrested. *'Crowd turns out for Nationwide
Kiss-In' - By James Thalman - Deseret News - 08/16/10 'The en masse
public display of affection was staged to replicate actual incidents in recent
weeks in which gay couples in three cities, including Salt Lake City, were
detained or arrested by security guards...' So, maybe not. But: Happy Hanukkah, Joyous Kwanzaa, Blessed and Merry Yule,
Solstice Blessings, Io Saturnalia, Salamun 'Alaikum, Merry Christmas, God Jul,
Happy Boxing Day, Las Posadas greetings, St. Nicholas Warm Wishes, Peace and Joy
on Bodhi Day, Protections of the Virgin, Joyous Epiphany Celebration, and Happy
New Year! You are so tolerant! :)
I don't celebrate the religious aspects of the holiday, but I do insist that my
children treat Santa Claus as one should a diety who can perform miracles (you
know--the miracle of reindeer flight and the ascencion of the chiminey) and who
gives us free stuff. They celebrate his coming by bringing gifts of milk and
nutter butters, much as the wise me brought gold and muhr. I absolutely refuse,
however--to allow them to believe that Mr. Claus is capable of giving them
everlasting life as most religions believe that Jesus does. He can,
however--make their earthly life better with material items.
What percentage of the "faithful" of any religion go out of their way
to expose their children to other viewpoints and ideas of religious beliefs?I find it admirable that these parents are allowing their children to
form their own opinions on things and wish that more parents would do the same.
There are many groups who do everything they can to keep their kids away from
differing opinions on things and avoid critical thinking. If you are so
confident that what you believe is correct, then why should you worry about your
child hearing someone else's opinion? This has nothing to do with
the atheist parent(s) believing in christ or any other supreme being, only with
letting their kids figure it out on their own.
It seems so many are very excited to talk about Christ, but very few of them act
Christ like; so what is the real value of Christ. Can the supposed faithful
really bamboozle their way into haven, or is it just one big act of man trying
to tame his fear of death.% A voice of Reason, I totally agree with
you; the Mormon Temple Square is a very beautiful and special place to visit
during the Christmas season.
"Teach the children that the pure green color of the stately fir tree
remains green all year round, depicting the everlasting hope of mankind, all the
needles point heavenward, making it a symbol of man's thoughts turning toward
heaven." (Teach the Children the True Meaning of Christmas, author unknown)
The Truth: "It seems even athiests can not deny Christs significance in our
world."I believe you're correct, but it isn't the significance
that you imply. Christians are a huge force in the world, as witnessed by the
current political climate, especially among Republicans, in the US. Atheists
certainly cannot deny that. The title of this article is misleading
in a couple of ways. Because Atheists take their families to church does not
confirm a secret worship of Christ or a need for religion. The bulk of the
article does a good job of pointing that out. I attend church weekly with my
family, but it doesn't make me Christian; it makes me the father in a family
that is predominantly Christian, and I support them in their sincere beliefs.I also find the last paragraph misleading. Nothing in the article
suggested that the Atheists in the article believed in any type of God. And of
the 21% of Atheists in the Pew survey that believe in God, three quarters
believed in god as either an "impersonal force" or "other/don't
know." In all, it seems the author tried hard to slant the article to a
pro-religion message that just isn't supported by the facts.
Regardless of what many claim, I don't think that anyone KNOWS.So, I
tell my kid the truth. There are many "religious beliefs"
in this country and this world.Some believe in Jesus Christ, some in
Buddha, some in Allah.Others dont believe in any religion.I don't know which if any are correct. These are things that you willhave to learn about and make your own decisions.Now, I know that
many of you think you "KNOW", but, in reality, I think you just
believe strongly. And that is fine.
RE: PaganSo What!So what if the christmas celebration
absorbed some peasant (pagan) celebrations rituals (from trees to santa
clause)Really so what.The most important thing has
always been the celebration of Christ's Birth,The most important
and significant thing has been to take a time of the year and celebrate this
very important event, and so what if other things have been
incorporated to make it more festive or help bring the peasants in in the
past.It seems even athiests can not deny Christs significance in our
patriot: "HA! If religion is so obviously dumb then why waste your kids
time taking them to church?"How about...1) As noted in
the article, taking children to church provides them with the knowledge to make
an informed decision regarding their personal faith (or lack thereof), rather
than blindly following their parents' belief system.2) The U.S. is
culturally Christian, even if not necessarily spiritually so or practicing.
Christian memes run through our literature, arts, music, history, vocabulary,
etc. Exposing children to Christian church services gives them the cultural
understanding they need to function in society. They don't have to believe the
content of the service, but they should know what it means.
Pagan, Merry Christmas!I invite you to visit temple square and if
willing, to view the nativity scene. I also extend the invitation to all
atheists, Christians, LDS, non-LDS, and all other groups of people. I personally
and I'm sure many others will be happy to share our message with you.
"Many atheist scientists take their kids to church"I'm
going to have to take exception to this headline. A mere 20%, one-fifth of
atheist scientists, hardly seems worthy of an adjective such as
"many". The term "some" would seem to be more appropriate
and accurate since the overwhelming majority..:)..do not appear to participate
in church/religious services.
"study also found some attend services because their spouse or partner is
religious"I would think that'd be a big cause for this stat.
'The chill of the season is being heated up by the bickering talk of the War on
Christmas.' - Article If Christmas was about Christ...
how does the Pine Tree tie in? Did they find it in the desert? And as for the 'war' on Christmas... *Religious lobbying is
changing political focus By Mercedes White Deseret News 11/21/2011 Number of lobbies has grown from 40 to over 200. Seems to
contradict itself when it's published by a paper... that is owned,
by a church. Evidence that even the 'horrible' atheist's scientist's
are tolerant of religion... and religion uses it to try and
'discredit' those who choose not to believe as they do. Great
HA! If religion is so obviously dumb then why waste your kids time taking them
I don't know why it is so surprising. I am LDS and I love periodically visiting
other churches and seeing how they worship as well. I also noticed the obvious
omission: no mention on what percent of those baptized in a faith don't attend
church at all in a year. Bet it's higher than 17%.