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Comments about ‘President Thomas S. Monson says put Christ at center of Christmas’

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Published: Sunday, Dec. 4 2011 8:57 p.m. MST

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RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@Ted H; Pray away. I don't mind. Happy Holy DAYS to you as well.

@VoR; You usually have better arguments. That was just ridiculous and you know it.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

Just as there is compelling evidence that Christ Birth took place in the Spring, there is also quite a bit of evidence it could have been in December. The thing is that it really doesn't matter. The thing to remember is that the Birth of the Savior would have meant nothing without his death and resurrection. Otherwise, it would have been just like any other birth.

We need to remember that at the Birth of the Savior he came into the world in the humblest of circumstances and would leave the world betrayed, mocked, whipped and crucified unto death. Yet, on an Easter Morn, a Sunday he would rise again to give us the gift of immortality. That day he would conquer death allowing each of us the same opportunity.

As it says: "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoso believest in him, shall never die but have everlasting life." Let us remember this gift to us as we celebrate the life of Jesus Christ, our Lord, our Savior and our Redeemer. I KNOW THAT MY REDEEMER LIVES.

Way of the Warrior
ANACORTES, WA

Utter Nonsense: "Just where is Christ in the annual entertainment and light show extravaganza put on by the church?"

He should be in your heart, just sayin' ;-)

bobosmom
small town, Nebraska

I unfortunately due to working at a 24 facility was unable to watch it and haven't had the chance yet due to commitments. I so look forward to seeing it. May god bless everyone and may we all remember the reason for the season. God bless everyone.

sharrona
layton, UT

Re: VoR,put Christ at the center of Christmas"? True,

Catholic and Lutheran's are examples of early Christ-centered Church worship architecture. The pulpits on the left and right, man is not the center. The Alter with communion bread is in the center with the Cross on the wall behind . Man is not centered . The transept is a cruciform, a cross.

RE: Bill,God so loved the world that he gave his one and* only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.(John 3:16 NIV,NLT) *only begotten( G. monogenes)must be distinguished from generation as applied to man. See( Mosiah 7:27). God becomes man not man becomes God.

This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about, His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Mt 1:18 NIV).

The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood was begotten of His Father, as we are of our fathers. (JoD 8:115)??

DeltaFoxtrot
West Valley, UT

@Jeff: You want to talk about Easter?

Easter as we know it today is a result of the Christian Church overwriting and combining aspects from a number of pagan rituals celebrating fertility, the vernal equinox and the beginning of spring. This is why Easter is associated with bright colors, chicks/bunnies/eggs, green grass and etc. The church just conveniently placed a celebration of the resurrection of Christ at around the same time.

Again, it's easier to convert people if they don't have to give up their parties.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

Sharrona: The problem is that Jesus was the only begotten of the Father in the Flesh. When you change the meaning to be the only one you remove the true meaning of the verse. There are some that would even argue that it doesn't make it clearer but only that it means the same thing. We are all begotten sons and daughters of the Father. We are his spirit children and lived with him before we came to this earth. The scriptures are plain that we are all JOINT HEIRS with Jesus Christ to possess all that the Father has. As man is, God once was and as God is man may become. Notice that it does say may not will. There is a huge difference. This is a problem with many of the Christian sects of today who live by the creeds and not by what is actually taught through biblical revelations.

Joggle
Clearfield, UT

I'm coming out of the closet this year and I feel such freeedom for doing so! I dislike the pretense and commercialization involved in celebrating a holiday I don't believe in. I've decided to put Christ at the center of Christmas right where he belongs this year by not joining in the celebration because I also believe Christ either didn't exist or that if a historical Christ existed he was not the divine man that religions make him out to be. I feel like a hypocrite trying to please other people and their beliefs rather than my own. I see no reason to celebrate winter since the annual snowfall and cold is my least favorite time of year! I'm not into pagan celebrations either. Santa Claus is as real as a god. Family celebrations can be any time of year! I like the ones in the summer much more. Many families only get-together during Christmas even though they live close together and then pretend they actually like each other! I'm buying gifts for my husband's LDS family to lessen the burden on my husband's time. I now celebrate more the births of my non-LDS family members instead.

Happy_Holidaze_anyway!

DeltaFoxtrot
West Valley, UT

@Joggle: Or you could join the rest of us in observance of Giftmas. A celebration of gluttony and pure consumerism.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

Sharrona,

Honestly, the pulpit point is something I didn't know and hadn't even considered. Very interesting. I'm not sure if that's a common reason, the original reason, or just a 'some people view it this way' reason... but nonetheless it's an interest point. Thanks for sharing it.

RanchHand,

In every way I do NOT think that's a weak argument. Saying 'and you know it' may seem to imply I'm in some sort of denial. But such an argument itself is a strawman. If you want to argue against me, at least represent my stance better. That's the first step. The second step would be to form an intelligible and objective opinion that may persuade me. Neither exist within the statement "and you know it".

You could have provided a better argument, and I don't know whether you know it. But I do know that objectively I have provided more here in my arguments.

If it helps you- I'm not trying to disprove atheists. I only try to promote my experiences and sentiments in a peaceful way. And I think trying to tell someone that they are lying about their personal experiences, is hostile and provoking.

Ranch
Here, UT

@VoR;

You and I discourse in writing all the time. To say that you can't prove I exist is ridiculous. God has NEVER written to you, I have.

sharrona
layton, UT

@DeltaFoxtrot. Easter, Modern men find it difficult to conceive of someone rising from the dead. Yet such beliefs are traditional in Judaism. It is contained both in the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 10:1) and Mamonides 13 Articles of faith.
Also O.T.,(Is 26:19) your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. And . (Daniel 12:2)Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Bikkurim( Jewish Feast of First Fruits). Fulfilled, Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (Cor 15:20).

@Bill in Nebraska."and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl 12:7)
Through him(YHWH) all things were made; without him Nothing was made that has been made. (John 1:3) Christians believe Creation Ex Nihlio.
Im not referencing creeds,please use some references in the future.

God begets God, man begets man, God creates man. C.S. Lewis. (Mere Christianity)

Joggle
Clearfield, UT

@DeltaFoxtrot

I'll pass! I dislike shopping! I'm trying very hard to limit my trips to even buy food so I don't have to deal with the celebration of gluttony and pure consumerism! I must admit though I like a good light display that I can see from afar! Some things are just too difficult to avoid completely and Christmas is one of them! I always celebrate the birth of a New Year though, with wishes for peace and happiness to all!

@sharrona

No offense, but using copy and paste scripture as an argument instead of your own words does little to support your argument. Arguing with Bible scripture solely on the basis that it must be true is NOT a powerful argument. If we are to know for certain that the Bible is true, you will need a different kind of argument than just presenting scripture-one that is absolutely conclusive and irrefutable.

No book on earth has been studied more than the bible has and it has been repeatedly proven incorrect during these studies.....just like the BoM and the BoA. Perhaps you need a different approach. It's amusing how various Christian sects dispute scripture within the same religion!

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: Joggle Perhaps you need a different approach. It's amusing how various Christian sects dispute scripture within the same religion!

Im quite willing to discuss the following in the future(my last post). Classical Arguments for Gods Existence: Ontological, Cosmological, Teleological,and Moral.

The Epistemological Necessity, The secular distinction between man and non-man had been he was a tool maker, not anymore. But now,in the area of language. Man is a verbalizer, we communicate propositionally with either spoken or written word. Your presupposition might be the uniformity of natural causes in a closed system.

Christianity has a different set of presuppositions. It begins with a God who is the infinite personal God who has made man in his(spiritual) image. If God made us to speak to each other in language. Then why should it be surprising to you to think of him speaking to Paul on the Damascus road? Do you think God does not know Hebrew?

Rising from the dead is contained both in the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 10:1) and Mamonides 13 Articles of faith. I was not quoting the Bible but Evangelicals and Mormons consider the Bible as authority

Jeff
Temple City, CA

@ Delta Foxtrot (and, by association, RanchHand): Yes, let's talk Easter.

The atonement of Christ, including His death and resurrection, is, to Latter-day Saints, the single most important event in the universe. We know the process began on a Thursday during the Passover, and ended on Sunday with His resurrection.

Passover is hardly a pagan celebration, and though the solar calendar used in the United States does not always coincide with the lunar calendar used by practicing Jews, the events parallel each other often enough to allow Christians to be comfortable with their celebration of the resurrection each year.

If you are trying to equate the fact that, in English, we use the word "Easter" to refer to the commemoration, and that the word predates the Passion, I have no argument with that. Other languages use a more relevant word.

Just as with Christmas (again, an English word with connotations not present in other languages), there are symbols appropriated by Christianity from other sources that, I think, are perfectly innocent, and need not detract from the sacredness of the commemoration.

I do not believe the atonement was appropriated from paganism; rather the reverse.

Joggle
Clearfield, UT

@Sharrona

It's my impression that you are mostly posting toward Mormons and disagree with their form of Christianity because your posts seem to assume that your main audience at least believes in God. I would be curious to see how you would respond to atheist, agnostic, secular humanist, etc. arguments. It's easier to dispute differences within a similiar, but different religion, but more difficult (in my opinion) for any religious person to overcome or dispute arguments from non-religious perspective. I have found that scripture can often be used as an argument against religion as a whole so I do understand your use of scripture as an argument. I feel it's too bad that limitations here prevent you from using your own words more along with your scripture use. The word and post limit prevents more in-depth discussion and often promotes misunderstanding and misconceptions for all of us. I would love to discuss Classical Arguments for Gods Existence: Ontological, Cosmological, Teleological, and Moral....and more with you in a friendly discussion, but I can't imagine this board will ever support that. Thanks and continue on!

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