Published: Friday, Dec. 2 2011 12:00 p.m. MST
All these plea's for respect for religion... what about respect for
the lack thereof? Respect is a two way street. You cannot GET
respect BEFORE, you GIVE respect. I try to respect my Mormon
friends. We may believe different things, but we create an atmosphere where we
can DISCUSS those differences, and hopefully, both learn and still part ways
as... friends. Today: *'Religious lobbying
is changing political focus' - By Mercedes White, Deseret News - 11/21/11 'Number of lobbies has grown from 40 to over 200' I would
be hard pressed to say that religion does not have, respect.
Reaction? *'Gays greatest threat to America, Buttars says' - By
Aaron Falk - DSnews - 02/19/09 *'GOP state legislator: Homosexuality
worse than terrorism' - By David Ferguson - Talking Points Memo - 09/10/11 *'Debate Crowd Booed Gay Soldier' - By Byron Wolf - ABC News - 09/23/11
Indignation Insults and Scorn. These people
do NOT represent my Mormon friends! But as an outsider, I can do
very little to prevent the respect given. Only those who are part
of, inside, can call out and demand respect to be given from THEMSELVES. Set the
example, for.... a 2 party discourse of respect.
I agree that we should respect each other's right to believe different things.
However I also think we should have the willingness to openly discuss
differences in beliefs and not act like we are being persecuted when someone
offers respectful criticism of those beliefs.
"Oh that's nice," her closest friend stammered, then turned quickly
away."In my church we don't believe in wearing crosses," another
friend said flatly."If your big brother was shot and killed, would
you wear the bullet around your neck?" another girl asked.By the end
of the day, Angela felt embarrassed and alienated."I understand that
different people believe different things," she said to her parents that
night. "But nobody asked me about what I believe, or why the necklace means
so much to me. It was like I was supposed to feel bad for wearing something that
reminds me of my faith."Who is teaching these children to treat
their friends this way? Is this how Christ would have acted? And when these
children grow up they will wonder why "outsiders" don't like their
Dang, Pagan, you beat me to it so I'll just tell you a story that happened to me
this week. A Catholic friend of mine and I were email debating the Pope's recent
hateful comments about homosexuality and I said to him that what the Pope said
was a lie and anti-Christ as the Christ that I know of and I said some truthful,
albeit unflattering, things about the Pope. He responded by saying that the
first sign of anything vile about the Pope, he will delete the email, end of
discussion. So apparently it is just fine for the Pope (or any religion that
does so) to say vile things about homosexuals and no one should be allowed to
respond to that. Religions might say they respect other points of views but some
of their actions say otherwise.
We as Latter-day Saints seem to quick to see the negative side of the cross. I
think we need to try to understand why some people have a deep reverence for the
cross, and be less quick to attack and speak against its use. The
cross may not be something that we use, but we need to not turn other people
using it into an attack on them and their religion.
'Religions might say they respect other points of views but some of their
actions say otherwise.' - aumacoma | 2:09 p.m. Dec. 2, 2011 And for
those persons, respect might never come. They use the banner of 'respect'
to only foster supporting points of view. Claiming that any differeing points of
view are 'dis-respect' that they are not allowing thier 'religious freedom.' When I point OUT some of the harmful things some say, many claim I
'hate' them. Or, said religion. Rather than holding them,
accountable for their actions. To me, there IS a difference. Anything I say? I try VERY hard to BE respectful, about.
Because the ONLY thing we have control over, is ourselves and how we handle,
situations. Not others. As exampled by: 'I
think we (Latter-day Saints) need to try to understand why some people have a
deep reverence for the cross, and be less quick to attack and speak against its
use.' - John Pack Lambert of Michigan | 2:11 p.m. Dec. 2, 2011 Thank
@Pagan, I've noticed a trend among some people to use the term "hater"
when they feel that anything about the religious organization they are a member
of is being challenged. And I can tell you that I have NEVER heard any general
authority in the LDS church use that term to describe non-members of the church.
Quite to the contrary, the general authorities are constantly reminding us to
be tolerant of the beliefs of others (there is obviously a need for these
reminders). For me, once someone goes down that road its time to stop trying to
have a meaningful discussion as they are already showing unrighteous judgment
and will at that point no longer be able to see any logic in the other person's
perspective. They somehow seem to think that labelling others as
"haters" is some sort of acceptable way to deflect the position of the
other person, when in fact most third parties should be able to recognize that
the one using the term "hater" is the one using a logical fallacy.
@ Pagan.. I hope some day you will learn that disagreement does not equal hate!
Using that word to describe someone with whom you have a disagreement is simply
an effort to redefine and denigrate that person, much like Hitler tried to
redefine Jewish persons. The consequences and history speak for themselves!
Dangerous ground to tread on calling other people names like,
"haters". Please think about it, at least!
Mountanman | 5:05 p.m. Dec. 2, 2011 Hayden, ID @ Pagan.. I hope some
day you will learn that disagreement does not equal hate! Using that word to
describe someone with whom you have a disagreement is simply an effort to
redefine and denigrate that person, much like Hitler tried to redefine Jewish
persons. The consequences and history speak for themselves! Dangerous ground to
tread on calling other people names like, "haters". Please think about
it, at least! @Mountanman, Thank you and I agree. Oh and if you
re-read Pagan's post, he was saying that OTHERS accuse him of hating.
We need to bring the level of public discourse away from what is sacred. Let's
focus on what's important. What's common. What's necessary. None of those things
are, collectively, religion.
Hutterite, to people who are believers in God and in his purposes for our lives,
I can assure you that religion already tops the important list for them. For
folks like you for whom it does not what is your problem with respecting others
priorities; especially since we believers are in the majority in the USA?
I didn't read the entire article yet, but wanted to say that the story of Angela
is a sad one. As a Utah Mormon I'd like to apologize. I'm one LDS who is
disappointed that we don't use the cross more (of course we know what some would
say about that!!) and I think all LDS should rejoice in seeing someone wearing
one to school (maybe even if it's Madonna etc). My oldest daughter
(preteen)came to me a few weeks ago and asked if I knew my shirt had a cross on
it.... (perhaps she didn't notice the skull or?? : )) I explained that I did
know and that the cross was not only a symbol of the tree of knowledge and
death, but also of life (to pagans and Christians). I'm guessing that her ideas
came from people asking why LDS don't use crosses, or accusing us of not being
Christian because they aren't on our Churches, and then Primary teachers etc
explain that we celebrate the living Christ, but perhaps they explain this in
the wrong way... I don't know.... but it's one of those things that make me
cringe a little...
I am personally pleased with the tenor of the responses to this article.
Understanding and respect, not mere tolerance, will further peace and
brotherhood/sisterhood in this tumultuous world. Narrow-mindedness, a trait that
far too many possess, foments meaningless labels ("hater",
"cult", etc.), childish name-calling and worse. As the
lyrics to the old song say, "Let there be peace...and let it begin with
I've had hateful things said to me by members of the LDS faith while I was still
an active temple going member. There is NO room for individuality in the LDS
faith. You have to conform in EVERY way or you are setting yourself up as a
target. The best thing I ever did was leave it.
Re: JM said, and then Primary teachers etc explain that we celebrate the living
Christ, but perhaps they explain this in the wrong way... I don't know.... but
it's one of those things that make me cringe a little...Theology of
the Cross. The cross is the center of the Christian faith. The haunting image
of the crucified Christ is the crucible in which are thinking about God is
forged. Martin Luther expresses the centrally of the cross in a series
statements such as The cross alone is our theology. The cross puts everything
to the test,Luther draws a now famous distinction between the theology of glory
who seeks God apart from Jesus Christ and the theologian of the cross ,who know
God is revealed in and through the cross.For the message of the
cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved
it is the power of God.(1cor 1:18)
@Sharrona, "Theology of the Cross. The cross is the center of the Christian
faith. The haunting image of the crucified Christ is the crucible in which are
thinking about God is forged."I respect Martin Luther. He was
a brave man who faced the powerful church which had gone very much astray at the
time. But, excuse my LDS way of thinking, isn't Christ the center of Christian
faith? The Romans crucified our Savior, which was the eternal plan
for Him to die and overcome death and sin. But a cross itself is an instrument
of torture and the killing of criminals by a slow, torturous death. Thousands
of people were put to death by crucifixion. Each was a gory, extremely painful
death. Why should we remember our Savior by this unspeakably cruel death and
have that etched into our minds? I would rather know my Savior as
the resurrected Christ, the same Christ who now dwells with His Father in the
eternal worlds, the same Christ who loves us individually and cares deeply for
us. It is because of Him we are saved, and only through Him can we have eternal
life and salvation.
to:cymrul | 9:25 a.m. Dec. 3, 2011I feel sorrow that your time as an
LDS member was not a better experience. I have been a member for over 40 years
and I have not felt the "conformity" pressure as you might have. Free
Agency is a wonderful principle and Christ never forced anyone to do anything.
However, that does not mean there are not natural consequences for personal
choices. Yes, I wear a suit, white shirt, modest tie etc every Sunday, not
because that is what is generally expect, but because I feel good doing it. We
have ward members wear all sorts of clothes to church and come from all sorts of
backgrounds but they are welcome and not "judged" out of activity.Of course there are more expectations and standards with more
responsibility. For example, the bishop cannot show up to church with green punk
hair and a nose ring wearing ripped blue jeans. In the LDS church Christ sets
the standards and we choose to follow them or not. That does not mean all
extremes will be tolerated.
@SerenityI was thinking the same thing. To add on that, 1 Cor. 1:18 must
be looked at a little deeper, I think. It's not saying- "For the message of
the CROSS is foolishness to those..." Rather, it's- "For the MESSAGE
of the cross..." Not the cross itself. That message could be symbolized by
the cross, but I think a better way to symbolize that message is how we act
towards others. I do respect the decision of my fellow Christians to wear the
cross, because I believe it is not an inherently bad thing. I personally don't
wear one, because I believe the Lord has asked me to outwardly express my faith
through another way-"34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye
love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.35 By
this shall ALL MEN KNOW that ye are MY DISCIPLES, if ye have love one to
another." (John 13:34-35)In the end if you're a LDS Christian,
Historical Christian, Catholic, or anything else, you can either believe in
those words, or say that your own religion asks you to do similarly.
Hey Kev,Try living here in Utah for awhile, and then we can talk about it.
Everyone knows things are very different outside of this state. "LDS Church
lady" is a different breed here.
@serenityA lot of churches use the empty cross which is a symbol of
his ressurection. The crucifix is more of a symbol of his sacrifice for our
sins.@HappyLDSUte"Not the cross itself. That message
could be symbolized by the cross, but I think a better way to symbolize that
message is how we act towards others. I do respect the decision of my fellow
Christians to wear the cross, because I believe it is not an inherently bad
thing. I personally don't wear one, because I believe the Lord has asked me to
outwardly express my faith through another way"This isn't a
perfect comparison because they aren't outward, but to a lot of people wearing
the cross is similar to how the LDS treat wearing the garment.
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