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Christian colleges hurting for students

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  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Dec. 2, 2011 3:04 p.m.

    Obama claiming "we're not a Christian nation" has something to do with lower college enrollment.

    Thank You Mr. Obama!

  • The Vanka Provo, UT
    Dec. 1, 2011 6:48 p.m.

    Twin Lights

    "non sequitur" - you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

    "That campaign is to familiarize others with members of the church not to say we are all somehow perfect."

    To whom do you refer when you used the word "we" in the above statement?

    I rest my case.

    "You tried to defend the atheists (your argument essentially reduces down to "we are less united as you so we can't be judged on the same basis")..."

    I do not defend atheists as a group. There is no group. The word ATHEIST was invented by Christians to refer to "those who do not believe in our God". It is not a self-identification initiated by any "group", much less "church" of atheists.

    As for Muslims and Islamic fundamentalism? Same argument applies. The world of Islam IS responsible for cleaning their own house. So long as believers claim to be unified under any religious banner, they are throwing their lot in with others of the same or similar belief.

    By their fruits ye shall know them. The TREE of Christianity has produced, and continues to produce a lot of downright rotten fruit, some of which is poisonous! It behooves the owner of the vineyard to prune his tree, and those who claim to act with the owners' authority and are the "husbandmen" of the vineyard are directly responsible for the quality of the fruit.

    That is not my doing. That is the nature of religion, and those are self-generated, self-identified responsibilities and identities for all who "take on the name of Christ" (or Allah, or whatever).

    As one lacking a belief in any god, I am under no such responsibility nor condemnation.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Dec. 1, 2011 10:28 a.m.

    Interesting direction this conversation has taken.

    The fact remains that young people are less inclined to commit to a specific religion - not that they're actually less religious. Many will tell you that they pray, read the bible (or other holy book), meditate, etc., but that they feel there is just too much ungodlyness associated with organized religion.

    Organized religion is about MAKING MONEY and HAVING POWER.

    The younger generation can see this as clearly as the sun rises in the East. They're also more likely to know people of other religions than the local dominant versions and are less likely to judge them based on the criteria of the local variety - because they can see for themselves that the local version's criteria are discriminatory in one way or another.

    WBC is only one example; there are plenty more (LDSCatholicBaptistEtc - involvement in P8 for example). Young people are more likely to know a gay and not find them HorridAawfulDisgusting, but just a normal every-day person, who happens to be *slightly* different. Then their ReligiousLeader starts in on how ICKY gays are, and there you lose yet another young person.

    Just look at KY's Baptist hateful vote on inter-ratial marriage!

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Dec. 1, 2011 5:29 a.m.

    Vanka,

    Relating this to the "I am a Mormon" campaign is a non sequitur. That campaign is to familiarize others with members of the church not to say we are all somehow perfect.

    The requirement to "mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all places" is an individual responsibility - something we agree to do for others. It is a tortured reading to see it as an assumption of responsibility for the sins of others.

    You tried to defend the atheists (your argument essentially reduces down to "we are less united as you so we can't be judged on the same basis") but never addressed the issue of Muslims being charged with responsibility for the 911 terrorists. Since the latter did what they did in the name of Allah, can all Muslims be painted with the same brush?

    In the same vein, are all Hindus responsible for the acts of Hindu terrorist groups?

    The list goes on. If this logic works for one religion or philosophy it must work for all. But it does not (not for any).

  • Jim Mesa, Az
    Nov. 30, 2011 10:49 p.m.

    The cost of education is outrageous. I had the opportunity to do my Masters, but the cost was too high. I bought an aircraft instead and have had more fun.

  • Whos Life RU Living? Ogden, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 3:34 p.m.

    Vanka,

    Well said, I am very impressed.

  • Eddie Syracuse, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 2:59 p.m.

    @ Vanka
    So what are you saying....That we as Mormons should change our ads to something negative? We believe in looking for the good in people and things. I know a lot of people who have been inspired by the "I'm a Mormon" campaign. In fact, some of them are investigating the Church now and have admitted that their lives have changed for the better. I think if you check out the success of the campaign, you will find that it has been a HUGE success.

    BTW, Look at the attendance of BYU, BYU-Idaho, and BYU-Hawaii...not to mention SVU, LDS Business School along with several other "Church owned" institutions. I wish that they would do a story on all of these schools and how the Church still has a need for more schools. So many students are turned away from BYU due to numbers and GPA.

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 2:38 p.m.

    Well at least I may have gotten a few people to think critically about the absurdity of the "I am a Mormon" campaign.

    There is no doubt when people associate themselves together under some banner or other, they are throwing their lot in with others whose actions WILL and SHOULD reflect on themselves.

    If you are Mormon, you are openly acknowledging that you want to be "judged" by the behavior of everyone with whom you have joined. If you are going to "mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all places", then you will be held accountable for the actions of those with whom you stand.

    That is your own doing.

    As for atheists? No, we cannot all be judged by one anothers' actions. We are not united on anything. A lack of belief in god can no more be a valid unifying concept than can a lack of belief in pixies.

    Do you believe in pixies? If not, does it tell us anything about your other characteristics and the characteristics of those in the "non-pixie-believing" group? No, because it is not a group.

    So, no, you cannot judge any atheist based on the actions of another atheist, and no atheist worth the name would desire such a thing.

    But the same is not true of religion in general, and Christianity in particular. The followers of Jesus Christ hold themselves out as "the body of Christ", and explicitly and deliberately associate themselves with one another.

    Don't blame me for this. You asked for it when you "took upon yourself the name of Christ".

  • MarieDevine Divine-Way Kansas City, MO
    Nov. 30, 2011 1:29 p.m.

    All colleges should be hunting for students. We now know God warned against debt, interest, insurance, seeking riches and honors, pride and vanity. Our whole nation is in error and we are teaching our students what God hates and enslaving them to debt in the process.

    Our lifelong employment system is polluting us to death, leading to extinction the more we push for jobs and international trading partners. Glorified slavery causes our many problems and the lifelong employment lifestyle cannot solve the problems it created.

    God's solution is Isaiah 2:4 They shall beat their swords into plowshares... and learn war no more.
    We can quickly solve our many problems and create a garden paradise lifestyle. The way is prepared for us to lift up our desire for God's wisdom to rule our nation according to the word of God as written in the Bible. That is our security and our equality and the abundant life God promised.

  • KC Mormon Edgerton, KS
    Nov. 30, 2011 12:12 p.m.

    Pagan
    You said
    "In fact, I have not called ANYONE a 'hater.'

    I DID point out the actions of the Westboro Baptist church, but I did not associate that with Bapsit's, or yourself."

    Yet from an earlier post you said the very thing you deny saing now

    "But Westboro, with it's 'God Hates....' signs do not REFLECT the lgbt community, does it.

    It reflects a christian religion.

    Baptist's."

    By your own words you are judging Baptists by the actions of one very small group who call themselves baptists. So I guess that means that every lgbt that has ever acted hatefully or violently means that they REFLECT (your word) the entire lgbt community! Not that I would associate those actions with the lgbt community just that it REFLECTS (again your word) the community.

  • raybies Layton, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 10:58 a.m.

    LDS belief does not require a disavowal of the Theory of Evolution. They are simply not incompatible with ANY of the legitimately peer-reviewed sciences, nor with the scientific method. In fact, the LDS faith is one of the few religions that actually practices a sort of faith-based scientific method. In that every member is encouraged to discover truth through a testimony of their own, building upon principles of faith and spiritual laws with a similar rigor as one might do in the hard sciences.

    Oh and in other news, BYU is not hurting for new students.

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 10:45 a.m.

    @Pagan 2:01

    You asked, "Are you under the impression villification of LGBT persons does not happen?"

    No, I never said that. My point was, it would be wrong of me to judge all those in the LGBT community based on the behavior of a few who are the worst of them, yet you seem to be doing just that with all Christians.

    If my assessment was wrong, I apologize.

    You said, "If you don't like me bringing up their actions (WBC). Condemn THEIR factual, actions.

    GLADLY! The WBC is a hateful, disgusting group of ignorant people. When they protested outside of Matthew Shepard's funeral a decade ago, I wanted to throw up. Even Jerry Falwell blasted their behavior which says a lot.

    You said at 5:10, "If you don't like it, then you need to get your house in order, and PROMOTE the message of Christ's love and compassion that we KNOW is out there..."

    I hope I'm a compassionate person. I want to be. Finding the good in people makes life so much better than always looking for the flaws in them.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 30, 2011 10:38 a.m.

    Vanka,

    So all who follow Jesus Christ are locked in with Westboro and can be painted with the same brush?

    By that logic, then the actions of the 911 hijackers are transmitted to all Muslims. After all, they did what they did in the name of Allah, correct?

    Atheists do not escape either. Since Stalin was an atheist, all atheists are at least partially complicit in his genocide, right?

    For that matter we can extend this to the whole human race. Since there are bad humans, then all humans are part of their evil, okay?

    No. The logic simply does not work. The evil acts of a few stand out bad actors does not mean the whole is polluted.

    Agreed that the opposite is also true. The positive actions of the one does not mean that the whole group is good.

    I would add however, that in many religions (certainly not just the LDS) there are multiple examples of goodness. Some never seen.

    Pagan,

    No self-victimization. Your 5:10 post clearly lumps all Christians together with Westboro. Just challenging your logic.

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 10:18 a.m.

    @Vanka 8:02

    You said - "If you are going to act "in the name of Jesus Christ", we have every right to judge you - the LOT of you - based on the actions of those of you who claim to represent Jesus Christ."

    I feel sorry for you, Vanka. Your attitude will choke away many opportunities for you to find the good in people different from yourself. Rather than disavow the hatred and ignorance of the world, it sounds as though you've embraced it with open arms. How truly sad.

    There are many people throughout the world who claim to do things either in the name of God or in the name of Jesus Christ. Some of these acts are very good, some are evil, but to lump them all together in one is tragic.

    This way of thinking is what starts war and conflict. It is the root of genocide and ethnic cleansing, where men, women and children are killed for no other reason than they belong to the wrong tribe or the wrong religion.

    Ignoring the good in others while seeking only the bad might make you feel superior Vanka, but it won't uplift anyone else.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 9:59 a.m.

    'If the deal is that you and I cannot disagree without one of us being labeled as a hater then there is a significant problem with how we approach both definitions and each other.' - Twin Lights | 7:25 a.m. Nov. 30, 2011

    But I did not actually CALL you, a 'hater.'

    In fact, I have not called ANYONE a 'hater.'

    I DID point out the actions of the Westboro Baptist church, but I did not associate that with Bapsit's, or yourself.

    I associated their actions, with THEIR belief, in God. A Judeo Christian God. Not associated with other faiths.

    So, please. Stop trying to MAKE yourself the victim by claiming, and without evidence or fact, that someone ELSE is calling you a 'hater'...

    when the Westboro Baptist church is sending out a message that includes, but is not limited too....

    'God Hates....'

    Instead of CONDEMING this action, you try to victimize, yourself.

  • DeltaFoxtrot West Valley, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 9:11 a.m.

    Organized religion, the #1 cause of suffering, death and destruction in the history of mankind.

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 8:02 a.m.

    Twin Lights,

    I love how believers will play this to their advantage.

    If a Mormon does something good, Mormons are the first to publish it and parade it around saying "See what Mormons are all about! See, I am famous and successful, and I am a Mormon!"

    The implicit (and often explicit) message is clear: DO judge Mormonism by this GOOD Mormon!

    But when a Mormon does something bad, you all say "You can't judge the whole group by the actions of one person!"

    How convenient.

    Westboro Baptist Church claims to represent Jesus Christ. So do Mormons. Westboro does what it does "in the name of Jesus Christ". So do Mormons.

    If you are going to act "in the name of Jesus Christ", we have every right to judge you - the LOT of you - based on the actions of those of you who claim to represent Jesus Christ.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 30, 2011 7:25 a.m.

    Pagan,

    There is no doubt that the LGBT community is sometimes treated very poorly. But your logic reference religion is seriously flawed.

    To say that because Westboro invokes the name of the Christian God, all Christianity can be condemned with them is simply beyond the pale,

    Can the actions of Jeffrey Dahmer be used to categorize and then criticize all gay men? Of course not. The mere fact that they share one characteristic does not mean they share others.

    Owl is correct. Westboro represents Westboro and nothing else.

    As to the hatred spewed in the name of Christ. That is a true problem. But disagreement reference the acceptability of gay life (or any other hot button issue) is not the same as hate. Folks can disagree even on significant issues and still maintain a respectful, even loving relationship.

    If the deal is that you and I cannot disagree without one of us being labeled as a hater then there is a significant problem with how we approach both definitions and each other.

  • The Atheist Provo, UT
    Nov. 30, 2011 7:24 a.m.

    Religious colleges were formed in order to provide a "sanitized" education to religious people who wanted to isolate themselves and their children from the "evils of the world".

    It has taken some time, but eventually such protectionist attitudes fail, along with the institutions that try to maintain them.

    "Only if you are not afraid of truth can you find it."
    So says a classic LDS proselyting filmstrip.
    A famous political theorist once said religion is an opiate.
    A famous psychologist once said religion is a defense mechanism against fear of death.

    If the idea that there is no god SCARES you, what does that tell you?

  • KC Mormon Edgerton, KS
    Nov. 30, 2011 7:23 a.m.

    Pagan
    You said
    "But Westboro, with it's 'God Hates....' signs do not REFLECT the lgbt community, does it.

    It reflects a christian religion.

    Baptist's"
    The only thing Fred Phelps and his group "reflects" is his and his families hatred of his gay son. I used to live in Topeka Kansas were they are based. The simple fact is that his group is in reality very small, just his family and a few friends. Before 9/11 people outside of Topeka had never even heard of him yet people including religious people (yes many baptists) tried regularly to shut him down. Some have even gone as far as shooting at his house.
    To say that he or his family reflect religion is intentionally misleading and shows a bias against all religion.

  • hapticz New York, NY
    Nov. 30, 2011 6:15 a.m.

    must agree with others, Westboro is like a defect in the 'data stream of love', there's lots of love hovering, but tidbits of irrational hate scattered about.

    how to interpret the messages of a kind and truly loving overseer, often hinges on how astute the one doing it is. too often, some of them are unhinged, without the full capacity to know true love.

    teaching and preserving knowledge that sustains, rather than destroys, has more value than any tuition known. the true cost ought not be measured in dollars, but in the time spent, in earnest devotion to the cause of goodness and love.

    we all have known those few teachers who had that exceptional quality, to teach and convey, that left us with awe and utter respect. it was something that could not be valued, as it was inherent to them.

    (and they often walked in the street, unaffiliated and free by their very nature!)

  • HotGlobe SAN RAFAEL, CA
    Nov. 30, 2011 12:29 a.m.

    Darwin killed God. It is taking a while for people to notice, but given how long God lived, that is not too surprising. Religion for most people now is this thing their parents did, so why not do it too and just try not to think about it very much. Bible is obviously in contradiction to science, beliefs are irrational and fit to a different shape of mind that has long since morphed into something new. Evolution has won and religion is slowly fading away, or collecting into hot-pockets of extreme faith. We can't unsee evolution and return to the old way. The writing is on the wall, for those who care to read it.

  • Munk Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 29, 2011 8:16 p.m.

    Christian colleges hurting for students? Hmmm.. I have also heard that the quality of education is also a factor. Let us look at BYU.. why has BYU not had to cut it's tuition? Attendance rates remain high... ok, so yes it partly has to do with the fact that it is in Utah and the LDS attendance and so forth. The bottom line is that BYU has an excellent curriculum, excellent faculty and the eduction you get there is outstanding. The same can be said for others such as Notre Dame... etc. etc.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2011 5:10 p.m.

    'Westboro represent Westboro, nothing else.' - Owl | 4:53 p.m. Nov. 29, 2011

    You can't say 'God Hates...'...

    without saying 'God.'

    The demographics may be different, but both claim to adhere to a Judeo Christian God.

    Mormons themselves, consider themselves a Christian faith, correct?

    Now, suddenly, when presented with a bad example, it's 'different?'

    How about another?

    *'Ga. counseling student in court over view on gays' - By Greg Bluestein - AP - Published by DSNews - 11/29/11

    'Correia said Keeton also told her professors she would tell any clients who said they were gay that homosexuality is morally wrong.'

    I won't even GET into Nigeria wanting to make it legal to stone a homosexual to death.

    This may be pushing association, but ALL these groups claim to represent 'God.'

    Not Hindu,
    Not Gahnesh,
    Not Odin.

    But Jehova, father of Christ.

    If you don't like it, then you need to get your house in order, and PROMOTE the message of Christ's love and compasssion that we KNOW is out there...

    and stop wondering why there is a decline in Christian colleges when there is so much vitrol and hatred spouted in His name.

  • Owl Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2011 4:53 p.m.

    Westboro represent Westboro, nothing else. You cannot generalize anything that transpires there.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2011 2:01 p.m.

    '@Pagan 10:49

    Your comment suggests the WBC reflects the opinion and behavior of all individuals who attend or have attended Christian affiliated colleges.
    No doubt you would gladly shout down and attack anyone who judged all members of the LGBT community based on the worst behavior of a few within that group, yet it's okay for you to do this?' - ClarkHippo | 1:36 p.m. Nov. 29, 2011

    I'm sorry.

    Are you under the impression villification of LGBT persons does not happen?

    *'Utah Pride Center vandalized' - KSL - 08/20/10
    *'Silent LGBT protest sparks crude comment' - By Mohammad Allam - The Daily Utah Chronicle - 02/16/10

    I can't even REPEAT what Rick Votaw said.

    And now I 'shout down' opposition?

    Really?

    Give me an example.

    Moving on.

    I have made public statements against 'glittering' Gingrich and Bachman. I have defended Mormons from comparisons of 'zombies.' So 'yes' I in fact DO defend both sides.

    But Westboro, with it's 'God Hates....' signs do not REFLECT the lgbt community, does it.

    It reflects a christian religion.

    Baptist's.

    If you don't like me bringing up their actions.

    Condemn THEIR factual, actions.

    Not, me.

    I didn't make those signs.

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Nov. 29, 2011 1:36 p.m.

    @Pagan 10:49

    Your comment suggests the WBC reflects the opinion and behavior of all individuals who attend or have attended Christian affiliated colleges.

    No doubt you would gladly shout down and attack anyone who judged all members of the LGBT community based on the worst behavior of a few within that group, yet it's okay for you to do this?

    @DeltaFoxtrot 10:59

    Some may argue state universities should do the same thing. Sorry, I forgot, state universities follow the rule of political correctness which teaches:

    -All opinions are welcome, just so long as we agree with those opinions.

    -If we disagree with what you think, we may attack you as a racist, homophobic, neocon fascist.

    -Have the pies ready to throw when any conservatives show up.

    -We don't want to offend anyone by our words or actions, unless that person deserves to be offended.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 29, 2011 11:55 a.m.

    My kid fought in Iraq while your kid partied at a non religious college!

  • IMAN Marlborough, MA
    Nov. 29, 2011 11:32 a.m.

    In a related note, 63 million years ago, after roaming the earth for ~175 million years, dinosaurs went extinct.

  • Anonymous Infinity American Fork, UT
    Nov. 29, 2011 11:30 a.m.

    Tuition increases across the board in higher education is outrageous. This is an item that ought to be on the news constantly. What also ought to be on the news is the fact that many of these institutions are PC in their views on social issues and have many curriculums that are totally irrelevant to the real world and are not providing employable degrees. The other aspect to this debacle is the U.S. Department of Education and the advocacy groups that foster students getting in debt with student loan programs along with the grant programs that are a total drain on the U.S. Budget. Many universities have created empires for themselves and their cronies with over the top salaries for people that do not teach classes. Why don't news media provide some information on the institutional hierarchy of these elitist educational organizations along with their budgets? This is just the tip of the iceberg.

  • DeltaFoxtrot West Valley, UT
    Nov. 29, 2011 10:59 a.m.

    The up and coming generation embraces a much wider perspective of life in the world. In a global society where each of us is more closely connected every day the theme of living should be acceptance, not judgment, of those who differ from you in lifestyle or opinion.

    Perhaps organized religion should examine itself and revert to preaching a few core precepts.

    Judge not. Love thy neighbor. Treat others as you wish to be treated. Help those less fortunate than yourself. Be responsible. Be humble, not boastful.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2011 10:49 a.m.

    'CNNMoney says these religious schools closed because there are less religious young people to recruit...'

    If examples like this are some of the examples of religion:

    'In 1991, WBC began conducting peaceful demonstrations opposing the (sic) lifestyle of soul-damning, nation-destroying filth.'
    - Westboro Baptist Church

    Then I would see no benifit to following such intolerant teachings as well.