A second monument unveiled to honor eight witnesses
I attended all of the activities this day and it was a special day. I thought
the church did a very nice job with the monuments and programs prepared. I just
wish my family could have attended this historical day with me. I am thankful
for the testimonies bore years ago and on this day.
Joggle: The fact remains that none of these men ever recanted their
testimonies. If you want to know the truth most critics do not consist of the
total truth of what has been said.There is much written about the
witnesses to the Book of Mormon. If you care to look at what I have above you
will notice exactly the truth. However, these men especially David Whitmer,
Martin Harris never recanted their testimonies. In fact, David Whitmer went to
great length to ensure that everyone knew that his testimony was still in tact.
All he had to do was say it was a forgery and Mormonism would have ceased to
exist. That did not nor has it ever happened.Martin Harris is known
to have stated the CHURCH left me, I didn't leave the Church. He moved to Utah
where he died. He did rejoin the Church. One of his heirs is currently a
member of the Quorum of the Twelve. Who knows more about this man than one of
his heirs. None of the critics have ever found one of these men heirs that will
say differently than what the Church has stated.That is a fact.
@Bill in NebraskaMany of these witnesses left Smith and the
organization that he started, believing at best that he was a fallen and false
prophet. Smith himself, called into question the general character and
reliability of several of these men. This, in spite of the fact that they were
close friends and family of Joseph Smith. By 1847 not a single one of the
surviving eleven witnesses (except those related to Joseph Smith) was part of
the Mormon Church. The LDS Church wants an investigator to accept the testimony
of these men as reliable; however, it does not want us to accept their later
statements that the Church had lapsed into error and blindness.To be
totally objective, we would conclude that the witnesses neither prove nor
disprove the Book of Mormon. However, circumstantial evidence doesn't prove
truth. The simple story of the witnesses told by the Church is incomplete and
there are some issues that make the story seem much less believable once the
rest of the history is known. The testimonies of the witnesses do not appear to
be the factual, unquestionably objective event the LDS Church often portrays.
Besides, witnesses often have reasons to NOT admit_deception.
Please stop perpetuating the myth that there are 14 million (LDS) members who
have received a testimony without seeing the plates with their earthly eyes
since the LDS Church counts inactive members, those that simply left the Church
and no longer believe, but never officially resigned, and others such as
children of record. Actual ACTIVE and believing membership is much lower. Many
members either have weak testimonies or no testimonies. You see that on this
board. Many don't leave because they would feel ostracized or a sense of loss
despite their opposing feelings so they stay. Having a large number of believers
proves nothing since there are millions of members of other religions who have
different beliefs. All religions can't be right and it could be they all are
wrong! Faith--firm belief in something for which there is no proof is a strong
force to which believers will find any way possible to justify as truth even
when there is strong evidence it's not. In the real world we have a human
tendency to find meaningful patterns in meaningless noise. You have to believe
angels actually exist to believe Joseph Smith's story in the first place! That's
ThinksIthink:Oliver Cowdery - excommunicated in Missiouri. Would
rejoin the LDS Church and prepare to leave for the Great Salt Lake when he would
die of pneumonia. Buried in Richmond, Missouri. Never recanted his
testimony.David Whitmer - excommunicated. Never rejoined the
Church. Testified at death that Joseph Smith was a prohphet of God.Martin Harris - left the Church in Kirkland. Rejoined the Church and moved to
the Great Salt Lake valley. Died as a member of the Church. Never recanted his
testimony.Christian Whitmer - Died a faithful member of the Church
in the 1830s.Jacob Whitmer - Died a faithful member of the Church in the
1830s.Peter Whitmer - Died a faithful member of the CHurch in the
1830s.John Whitmer - excommunicated. Never rejoined the Church but
stated that Joseph Smith was a prophet, the Book of Mormon was true and that
Brigham Young was doing right by the Lord. Didn't agree with polgamy.Hiram Page - excommunicated with Oliver Cowdery. Never rejoined the Church.Joseph Smith Sr, Hyrum Smith, and Samuel Smith would all die faithful
members of the LDS Church.It goes to say that even when one has
proof put before him, that is not enough to remain faithfull.
I understand none recanted their testimony, but I'm curious how many of the
witnesses remained faithful members until the end of their lives? does anyone
To the critics: The same arguments continue to be used. Fact is fact. None of
the three or eight witnesses ever recanted their witness or testimony. Oliver
Cowdery died as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in
good standing. Martin Harris also died in good standing. David Whitmer the
last of the three witnesses died last and restated his testimony to his family
and the world. He also stated that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God on his
death bed when he called his family together.None of the eight
witnesses ever recanted their testimony of the Book of Mormon. Many of the
eight not only saw the gold plates, but handled them and turned the pages. Most
of the eight witnesses died as members of the Church in good standing. Hyrum
Smith died with his brother in Carthage Jail. Samuel would die several days
later from pnuemonia that he picked up when running from the mob who killed
Joseph Smith and Hyrum.All of the propaganda produced by you the
critics has been shown to be poor and old. Nothing you say can or will change
the minds of true believers.
I've also read Joseph Smith used a seer stone and did not actually refer to the
golden plates while translating. Is that accurate?
I think the acid test regarding the "spiritual eyes" comments is this.
Do you, any of you, believe in things spiritual? If the answer is yes then you
probably don't have difficulty acknowledging the "spiritual eyes" bit.
If the answer is no, then there is not a thing that can be said that would
convince you otherwise and your postings on this board are not intended as
conversation, but rather as contention. Incidently, they claim to
have not only seen the plates, but to have hefted them, traced the characters
with their fingers and turned the pages. I imagine their testimonly would stand
in any court except the court of spitefulopinion.Not one of
the 11 plus 3 witnesses ever recanted that which they had seen and felt
regardless of there standing in the church.
I have read that most or all of the witnesses said they saw the plates with
their "spiritual eyes" but why is that less meaningful than seeing
them with your earthly eyes. There are 14 million members who have received a
testimony without seeing the plates with their earthly eyes, so does it really
matter that the witnesses saw with their spiritual eyes?
Summer,Are you saying that none of these witnesses used the term
"spiritual eyes" when talking about seeing the plates?
@Utter Nonsense"no court in the land would allow someone to testify
that they had seen something with their "spiritual eyes"
only."They didn't testify that they saw only with their
"spiritual eyes" - they saw with their own natural eyes. The
"spiritual eyes" claim keeps showing up on these discussion boards
that doesn't hold up historically. Not to mention that the courts have nothing
to do with this.
I would like to see the three Nephites, since they are supposably still roaming
How many of the witnesses remained faithful members until the end of their
lives? I've heard different accounts but I've never really known for sure.
I would like to see a monument for the three Nephites