Great point.The existence of a "Holy Ghost" revealing
itself to mankind would be an undoubted miracle.Nothing is esteemed
a miracle that happens in the common course of nature. That a man, seemingly in
good health, should suddenly die is not miraculous because it is observed to
happen not infrequently.But it IS a miracle that a dead man should
suddenly come to life because that has never been observed by any person.There must be a constellation of uniform natural observation and
experience against which a "miracle" is identified and defined. When
we say "prove it", we mean for the claimant to appeal to that
constellation of uniform natural observed/observable experiences and events.If anyone tells us he saw a dead man rise to life, we must immediately
consider whether it be more probable/less miraculous that this person is trying
to deceive us, or has themselves been deceived, or if the
"miracle" really happened.We must weigh the one
"miracle" against the other, and always reject the more "far
out" miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous
than the event he relates, then, and only then, should he be believed.
To The Atheist,I like to think that God exists although I do support
a position that I think you have made in your comments. That is that we would be
so much better off just taking the initiative to ACT and do good simply for the
sake of acting and doing good - whether or not God does or does not exist. I struggle with the fact that religious individuals become so worried
about what they believe or what they think God does or does not want them to do.
We can become paralyzed over the absolute mundane, trivial and absolutely
inconsequential details imposed by most religions. If God does exist - he or she
will likely just want to know that we did the best to be good, loving,
charitable people during our time on this earth. He or she will likely care less
what we believed or whether or not we were able to check the
behavioral/worthiness boxes imposed by religion.
DSB,Saying the world would not exist without God is complete and
absolute question-begging.The comparison is a valid one, and reveals
that religion makes NO DIFFERENCE.
10CC - You might want to re-read the story of King David. God called him as a
very young man, probably just as a boy - not after he'd done the bad stuff to
which you refer. Also, he didn't pray hard to be selected as the King or to be
chosen as God's mouthpiece. Quite frankly, there are no parallels at all when
comparing David and Herman Cain.I don't think you can find a single
Biblical prophet who pleaded with God to have the calling. I'm sticking with
hubris for now, but I'll be the first to humbly acknowledge my error if he
indeed turns out to be the second coming of Moses, or even David.@The Atheist, what kind of ridiculously impossible comparison are you asking
us to make? Whether God exists, or not, how could anyone compare a world with
Him and without Him? I think believers would counter the world simply would not
exist without God. What world would atheists propose as the one to compare this
supposedly godless one to, since you'd only be taking a world we already believe
God created, and somehow making it better without an understanding of Gods'
The Atheist - I wasn't trying to "prove" anything to you, as I know it
cannot be done, except to oneself. No one can prove that God does NOT exist,
even to oneself. You can only choose to believe, and to not believe, whatever
fits your personal bias or illusory correlation as a non-believer. A very true
quote from City of Angels - "Some things are true whether you believe them
or not." I'll concede that some things are also not true, no matter how
hard one might believe them.I can choose to believe what I have
experienced, or attempt to delude myself into disbelieving what was very real.
No "confirmation bias" or "illusory correlation" can explain
it away, and you have no idea what I've experienced. Furthermore, I don't need
your approval and I don't need to cast sacred experiences before a newspaper
comment board to be mocked.
procuradorfiscal,"He thanks you and loves you, just the
same."Who? Big Foot? Santa?And, of course, with his
"thanks and love" for all I do, plus a token, I might just be able to
get on the subway...You demonstrate my point. My life WITH god's
"thanks and love" is NO DIFFERENT than my life WITHOUT god's
"thanks and love".Stand a universe WITHOUT a god side by
side with a universe WITH a god, and I defy any of you to tell which is
which.You claim there is a god, but there is evil in the world,
"natural disasters" (that are called "acts of god"),
injustice, horror, etc. I hold my godless world next to the one you claim, and
guess what? They look the same!Oh, but there is one difference.
Because I am not waiting around for a god to make things right, I take action
and don't waste my time "praying for" people (and using that as an
excuse to do nothing, but to feel righteous about myself).
Re: " I "go for" doing worthy things all the time, and I take
risks to do praiseworthy things all the time... and I didn't need a god involved
in the process at all."He thanks you and loves you, just the
LetsDebate,I appreciate your reply. Thank you.My
conscience is not "god-given". That is question-begging on stilts.As for the people who may or may not have been "inspired NOT to
run", that demonstrates nothing. I can decide NOT to run using my own wits
just as easily as I can decide TO run using my own wits.No god is
necessary either way.You say "Many of us have real spiritual
experiences that are indeed different than praying to an old shoe, and it's
quite a "real, practical difference" for us."For
instance?I suggest you investigate a few concepts:1. I
have listened to LDS "testimonies" for decades, and I have listened to
the explanations and applications of D&C 9:7-9 repeatedly. Based on this,
every Mormon I know believes the only thing the Holy Ghost really does is
"confirm" what you already figured out yourselves by "studying it
out".2. Look up "confirmation bias" and
"illusory correlation" and consider what they suggest about your
claims.3. The LDS doctrine of "free agency", if taken
seriously, becomes practically identical to forms of Deism: we are effectively
and essentially "on our own".
LetsDebate:How does one even begin to assert "how God
works"??? Can you demonstrate even the existence of God enough
to satisfy the basic requirement of the even more daunting argument as to how he
thinks and operates? We can contrive a whole host of explanations for why things
happen if God functions as a variable in our equation. Still the
point is not about God so much, but how people and politicians use God for
self-aggrandizement parading as humility, and why do we buy into it. Certainly
if God has a logical plan he is not in the business of sending mixed signals.
Yet, here we are giving legitimacy to all the various religious impluses that
are claimed, ignoring how they all collide against each other and reason. To counter you will say, "we don't understand God's purposes",
"mabey it is for that persons growth". However, conveniently this is a
response we offer when the outcome defies logic in the context of God inspired
the action. And of course who can challenge that right? Not because the argument
is so compelling, but because the entire rational depends on a being and world
that may or may not exist.
DSB:Actually, you can't really attribute Cain's remarks to being
hubris, because we don't really know if the Lord has selected him to be a kind
of modern day biblical character or not. As for those who skoff at this notion,
King David did some pretty bad things, but God still selected him to play a
pivotal role in his time.We just don't know.
Among all of them none of them are an Issue. I would like to see
Condie Rice run. Now that would be an issue. Everyone is saying I am
the Winner and the others should quit now. We still have almost a year to go. We
need two strong people to run for President. Against Obama and whom ever. I am
sick of the VP being a week missing link.JFK on the Basis of his
faith alone, should not have beaten Richard Nixon.I want Abortion
Stopped and Sunday Back. Then Border protection, jobs, education, Strong armed
services. As in the Time Article, I do not want to see a strong
Military Caste System, I want to see 2years for America, Service, Work,
Something, Everyone. A Mission might evan count.I am sick of no
launch and just drifting with No Direction.I have always thought
that Most People Male and Female should have Basic Training just to be able to
defend America. Perhaps a slightly less intense version of Basic.Outs might be College 3.0 or above, motherhood,and mental stability. I believe most Handicapped people can serve. Low Visioned also but not blind.
To The Atheist - I think you make a very logical point. However, we really
don't know how many people considered running for President, prayed about it,
and were inspired NOT to run. Also, many of us believe that we should be
"anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free
will," outside of constantly seeking God's approval for every good thing we
do. In that regard, good for you for living a good life. Many of us believe
you're following a God-given conscience to be a productive and positive member
of the human race.There are many other decisions of a private and
heart-wrenching nature, that believers take to God for inspiration, and often
the answer is quite unexpected, and following the inspiration leads to
unanticipated blessings. Many of us have real spiritual experiences that are
indeed different than praying to an old shoe, and it's quite a "real,
practical difference" for us.
I guess I have become a cynic. But anytime somebody who is running for office
wrap himself or herself with the flag or religion, my defenses go up. Jesus taught us to pray in secret and not to show everybody that we are
praying.All these candidates making sure we hear how devoted they are rest
credibility to their spirituality.The funny thing is they will win
or lose. Not based on their ability to pray but on their ability to lead.Mr. Huntsman and Mr. Romney to a lesser degree have been more discreet
in appealing to our emotions. For that I commend them.At the end if
I believe that God protects and respect our free agency, I should also believe
that he will avoid anything that can interfere with our thinking and our
To Mormoncowboy at 1:46,Pagan was obviously saying that if anybody
claimed God wanted them to run for President, they would either have to win, or
be humiliated and explain why they lost, because obviously God's candidate would
win. Some things are so obviously not "how God works" as
DSB said, that it doesn't take a PhD in theology to say it. If you think that's
how God works, then you and Pagan have a nice day. I don't believe it.
"Father in Heaven... approves if they want to go for something worthy...
God is pleased whenever somebody takes a risk to do something
praiseworthy."Fascinating. I "go for" doing worthy
things all the time, and I take risks to do praiseworthy things all the time...
and I didn't need a god involved in the process at all.What real,
practical difference does your god make if his answer is "If that is what
you want to do, go for it"? I can get that kind of an "answer" by
praying to an old shoe. In fact, I can get that kind of an "answer"
from not praying at all. I do it all the time!
The Father in Heaven I believe in loves his children and approves if they want
to go for something worthy, which is certainly true of running for president. I
have no doubt that God is pleased whenever somebody takes a risk to do something
praiseworthy. Let them run and may the best one win.
So, neither Pagan nor Kami can address my comment that God may have numerous
reasons to approve someone's desire to run for office, without ultimately
endorsing that candidate to win.Pagan, where was the hubris with
anyone's story but Cain's? Did Bachman, Perry, or anyone else compare
themselves with Moses? Is it hubris to say one appeals to God on important
decisions, then follows the inspiration? Did any of them say God called them to
be President, or merely to put their hats in the ring?Yes, I think
to mock them and the Republican Party for seeking personal inspiration over
important decisions demonstrates extreme arrogance and a lack of understanding
about God. Maybe God inspired them, and maybe He didn't and they're just
pandering. You don't know, and I don't know. So far, only Cain has
compared himself to a Biblical character of epic proportions. And, I personally
like Cain a lot, but that's clearly hubris, as is claiming to know that God has
not inspired another person. Pagan, I don't understand the accusation of a
double standard, but I realize you feel that way every time someone disagrees
with you. Kami - please read Matthew 23:23-39.
'I read most of Pagan's posts -- he doesn't get in people's faces like so many
other posters do when they post back to him. Why do you think that is?' - Kami |
1:31 p.m. Nov. 17, 2011 Thank you. Regardless of
anything going foward. I found your post pleasent, and enjoyable to
Herman Cain as Moses, parting the red-see (I told you so) comming to DVD real
soon, watch for it. Then remember, Cain's only real foreign policy experience is
from when he ran the National Restaurant Association and had to deal with the
manager from the International House of Pancakes.
"That's only the interpretation of a faithless unbeliever with no concept
whatsoever of how God works."Best quote of the day DSB - please
tell me then really "how God [actually] works". You could start by
explaining clearly how you know this...in fact, I'd settle for just that!When confronted with the obvious contradictions in the assertion that
each of these candidates were directed by God to run, we offer each of these
candidates with the undeserved benefit of the doubt that they are truly
"humble" as opposed to just trying to appear so. The truth is, they
are each running because they either want the job, or because they believe that
will do good at it, and probably a mixture of both. Not because they had a
"burning bush" experience. First clue, why do we always insist on
borrowing Moses's metaphors? Because we/they lack any actual experiences from
which to derive our own. Still we insist first on having faith, second on
respecting the contradictory claims of others with the ineffectual dodge uttered
by Kami and implied by DSB - "God works in mysterious ways". There,
it's a mystery, so now we don't have to be accountable for it!
DSB | 12:05 p.m. Nov. 17, 2011 Cedar Hills, UT "@Pagan - just
because someone prays and gets confirmation they should run for office, does not
imply that God supports them to ultimate victory. That's only the interpretation
of a faithless unbeliever with no concept whatsoever of how God works."DSB, I think you should lighten up. If I was a faithless unbeliever
your harsh tone and other posts like it would do nothing whatsoever to encourage
me to question my beliefs or the lack thereof. Do you see any examples at all
in the scriptures of Christ treating unbelievers this way. I read most of
Pagan's posts -- he doesn't get in people's faces like so many other posters do
when they post back to him. Why do you think that is?
'We don't always know the reasons behind His will for us...' - Kami | 12:03 p.m.
Nov. 17, 2011 But this article disputes that claim. How
can a person claim 'devine influence'...AND claim they don't know 'exactly' what
God wants? This, is the contradiction of faith. And another reason
why those like Harold Camping should stick to abstract claims.
Because when people take them to TASK over specific predictions of devine
influence... they are proven, lacking. '@Pagan - just
because someone prays and gets confirmation they should run for office, does not
imply that God supports them to ultimate victory.' - DSB | 12:05 p.m. Nov. 17,
2011 If they cannot win with the support from the almighty... then the devine wants them, to loose. 'That's only the
interpretation of a faithless unbeliever...' - Same The unbeliever
then, should not CARE. It is those who are so prideful they claim to
speak directly with the devine, that PLACE themselves on this pedistal. The unbeliever, is simply keeping track. Also, I enjoy how you
claim I should not claim to know Gods will... then, claim Cain is
hubris, but NOT anyone else. There were plenty of examples. The Double. Standard. continues.
This is not surprising at all. This is what has to be said to be the Republican
nominee. If that nominee is smart, he or she will then back off the God talk in
order to win the general election which is dominated much more by practical
independents and moderates who have little interest in what you think God did or
didn't tell you to do.
well then,I guess God wanted Obama to win last time.Or,
is there another interpretation.The Religious can always find a way
to justify history to support their view. Oftentimes, the logic is
flawed, but it is always humorous
In my opinion, anyone who says God favors one political party over the other has
probably run out of ideas in the debate over the topic at hand, has little or no
capacity for understanding opposing political philosophies, and is ankle-deep in
the ocean of knowing God.
I think we all know what Cain was praying for: Please don't let me get
caught!@10CC: Is that why God is having all the GOP candidates bash
Devine inspirationHopefullyHumbled in defeat
@Pagan - just because someone prays and gets confirmation they should run for
office, does not imply that God supports them to ultimate victory. That's only
the interpretation of a faithless unbeliever with no concept whatsoever of how
God works.Win or lose, these candidates may experience a very
personal refinement of spirit and character through the process. Win or lose,
they may provide valuable ideas to the debate and help prepare the eventual
winner for better service. Win or lose, they might be a good example to others.
You have no idea why God might approve a person to run, so please
don't presume to tell them whether they've had a spiritual confirmation of their
decisions.And, who said that people running on the Democratic ticket
haven't also received a spiritual confirmation of their decision after personal
consideration and prayer? Who suggested that only the GOP candidates are backed
by God? Again, just presumptions of the spiritually ignorant.That
being said, I was quite amused by Cain's begging of God for the opportunity,
then feigning surprise and humility by the "call," followed directly
by assuming the mantle of Moses. Wow - I must admit the possibility of hubris.
Pagan | 11:28 a.m. Nov. 17, 2011 Salt Lake City, UT "So, I can
do anything I want because I think 'God' told me to?What about each other?
Is God wanting them ALL to be President? Or would even this be an admission that
maybe, sorta, kinda, not really God favored ONE person to be President?"Pagan -- From my perspective, it could be God's will for all of them to
run, but possibly not to win. We don't always know the reasons behind His will
for us, but wherever that path takes us there is likely something for us to
learn. I would disagree with the notion that out of the blue God tells a bunch
of people to run for President. To the contrary, the decision would more likely
have come from thoughtful prayer and a confirmation from God that yes, that is
the path for you at the present time. This is where faith comes in. You may
not know the reason why, but if you have faith you are willing to follow His
will for you.
I would think any religious person would spend some time in prayer before making
such a decision. No one should be mocked for seeking guidance and making a
decision they genuinely believe was the correct one. I suspect that
a lot of the time the answer would be -- if that's what you want to do, go for
'Like him or not, when was the last time Mitt said anything about religion?' -
Macfarren | 11:20 a.m. Nov. 17, 2011 *'Romney: God wants US to lead,
not follow' - By Steve Peoples - AP - Published by DSNews - 10/07/11 He
says God did not create America to be a nation of followers. Or,
when Mitt Romney is against gay marriage....after he supported rights for LGBT
persons. *'Mitt Romney pledges opposition to gay marriage' - CBS
News - 08/04/11 'It's also notable because Romney was not always such a
strong opponent of gay rights. In 1994, he sent a letter to a gay Republican
group saying he would be a stronger advocate for gay rights...' But
this is closer to when Mitt Romney wanted to invade Iran. *'GOP
contenders argue on Iran' - By Kasie Hunt - AP - Published by DSNews -
11/12/11 "If we re-elect Barack Obama, Iran will have a nuclear
weapon. And if you elect Mitt Romney, Iran will not have a nuclear weapon,"
vowed the former Massachusetts governor.' The 'Nuclear Weapsons'
lie... again. "The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and
produces (sic) weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons.' - George W. Bush - Ohio
God should have chosen a better bunch of candidates than these clowns. He must
have a sense of humor.
Evidently the Lord is trying to educate the American population on the dearth of
competency and solutions offered by the GOP.I'm listening to the
Re: "If we are to take this article seriously we could conclude that God
favors the Republicans."Well, given intractable, unalterable
Democrat positions on the wrong side of pretty much EVERY moral issue, it
wouldn't surprise me to hear that God MAY favor more Republicans than
Democrats.Even the Gingrich and Cain wandering eye issues are
illustrative. Ted Kennedy, the lion of the Democrat Party and Chris Dodd, one
of its most powerful power brokers, even post-Congress, viciously harass a very
young Carrie Fischer, and it's just a cute little back story that will helps
sell books. And, no Democrat even dares remember that there's a bridge in
Chappaquidick.Yet, political careers of Gingrich and Cain have both
been irreparably damaged -- neither will ultimately be nominated -- by
allegations of sexual impropriety.You see, the Nation has come to
EXPECT what would otherwise be shocking misconduct from godless liberals. It no
longer shocks. Only Republicans can be portrayed as evil when they engage in
misconduct that is all too common among Democrats, liberals, socialists, and OWS
So, I can do anything I want because I think 'God' told me to? What
about each other? Is God wanting them ALL to be President? Or would even this be
an admission that maybe, sorta, kinda, not really God favored ONE person to be
President? Baccus0902 | 10:54 a.m. Nov. 17, 2011, nailed it. If Obama is re-elected, do you think any of these persons will recant
their claim of support from the almighty? I doubt it.
Rather, like with ALL things about claims of the almighty, they will just try to
'not talk about it', and sulk in their corner. Happened during
Clinton, and Obama's first election, right? Here's another
example. Harold Camping. The world was supposed to end
on May 21st, 2011. Then, October 21st, 2011. Now, 2012. Hard to take 'devine influence' seriously with examples like these....
Kind of ironic, don't you think? The one thing Mitt was/is taken to task for,
everyone else is now carrying around like a heroic banner?Like him
or not, when was the last time Mitt said anything about religion?
Mostly TIC. Being a devout Christian, I actually believe god told these
Republican to run for president, he is showing the electorate that every one of
the republican candidates are knuckle heads, and that God gave all of us a brain
and the intelligent thing to do would be to vote for the smart candidate,
President Barack Obama! Flame On!!
Well there is no reason that each individual voter could not gather all the
information he/she can, study it out FIRST and make an informed decision, and
they pray for confirmation. Of course I'd guess that most votes will sidestep
I would like to invite the writer of this story Mr. Joseph Walker, make a follow
up story the next day of the election in 2012. I would be very much interested
on the explanation of those who didn't get elected to office.Would
be even more interesting if Mr. Obama is re-elected president of the United
States.If we are to take this article seriously we could conclude
that God favors the Republicans.If Mr. Obama is re-elected we could
conclude that God has a sense of humor and was just teasing with these people.
Because as Kami 10:28 wrote, who are we to question the candidates believes?Mr. Walker please write a follow up story, I will be eagerly waiting.
Seems like a common theme among GOP candidates.Is anyone buying
that?From any of them?
It's a perfect description of the Republican nomination process. A bunch of guys
who think they're God's gift out to convince the religious right that they are.
Pretty amazing! They're all receiving the same "revelation" to simply
"run" for president; and, only one of them will win the election? If
you want something bad enough and pray hard enough; even though it's not
necessarily God's will at all, you'll convince yourself that He did in fact,
speak to you. Perhaps God gave them all the same answer to simply entertain
them and feed their ego. Their responses are politics at it's very best.Other than Ron Paul, I woundn't give a single one of them, the time of
day, much less vote for any of them - Romney included.
If I were Mitt Romney I would want a partition between me and the rest during
debates. The article should include Newt's saying that his adultery was a
natural overflow of his passionate patriotism and that God understood that.I don't agree with all of Romney's views but he is by far the best
person to lead this nation right now. I'm still open on whose views are right -
where we disagree. It seems that the Lord chose to be born in a stable for some
reason.And I wonder if Mitt had been reared in Searchlight, Nevada would
he still have the same political philosophy?
Who am I to question any of the candidates beliefs that they felt influenced by
God to run? Seems to me it would take a pretty prideful person to question that