I agree with the debate that teachers should be allowed to pay to be a member of
the association of their CHOICE -- union and non-union alike. Choice is the
operative word here. Ohio teachers don't have a choice.I understand
why taxpayers would be concerned. Obviously teacher salaries are paid via taxes.
If union dues are forced as a condition of employment, essentially tax payers
are paying for the union membership of each teacher in the state. I
am so glad teachers, such as myself, have a choice here in Utah.
I have issues with forced unionism, but I also have issues with stockholders of
a company being forced to donate to political causes. No company should be
allowed to donate money from my portion of a company, (that I hold shares in)
without getting my permission first.If I refuse to give that
permission, and the company donates to a political cause, the company should cut
me a check in perportion to the amount of stock that I hold.I used
to hold stock in TRW who was lobbying at the time that companies shouldn't have
to pay time and a half for overtime work. They wanted to be able to give comp
time instead as an option. I disagreed with this. They lobbied and gave
political contributions for a cause I as a stock holder disagreed with.So if we restrict unions, we should likewise restrict companies in similar
Unions have an honorable history of protecting workers against abusive practices
and raising working conditions for all workers. Unfortunately, some of those
unions became so big and strong that they suffer from corruption. That doesn't
make the concept of unionism bad. Power induces corruption in government and in
businesses, too. I'm just glad we enjoy the privilege of joining together to
protect our interests.Quit making general, sweeping statements for
or against unions. Let's just make sure we have reasonable laws to regulate bad
corporate practices, bad government practices, and bad union practices.
Raven, Sandyresident is absolutely correct. You have no right to tell me where
MY hard earned money is spent. Your tax dollars do not go to the UEA. Through my
free choice as an American citizen, my money can go to the association of my
choice.Funny that those who claim to love America so much despise
the basic principles we as Americans hold dear. The right to assemble, the right
to free speech, the right to representation. These rights are not subject to any
conditions. I do not particularly care for the Tea Party but I will defend an
Americans right to associate with them.
So's the DABC
@Raven--its not your taxpayer dollars going to UEA. It is my salary and I can
VOLUNTARY contribute to any cause I want. I choose to be a member because while
I'm busy teaching YOUR children, I need someone to do the work to protect my
Teacher Ann, I am confused as well. They are not the same and to imply that they
are is completely inaccurate.
Teacher Ann, you have me very confused. How can defending a woman's right to
carry a baby to term be the same thing as supporting abortion?
"The NEA does NOT support abortion. They weighed in on a Catholic nun's
right to carry her baby full term after being raped when leaving school late one
evening."Weighing in is the same as supporting the issue. Lets
call a spade a spade. The right to carry the baby is the same thing as abortion.
I realize by being against abortion I am against the "right" a woman
may have to kill a baby she is carrying. With few exceptions, I am against that
"right", thus I do not want an organization I would be a member of
"weighing in" on an issue I am against.
Unions do serve some beneficial functions. Can you imagine a large employer (or
their HR office) having to negotiate separate pay rates for 100,000 employees?
That task alone would require a huge increase in staff. Imagine trying to
correlate them all and make sure they were all fair. More staff, more
expense.Unions force employers to come up with pay grades, uniform
requirements for advancement and raises, and so on. This also helps the
employer come up with a stable budget.Most of the benefits some of
the more outspoken posters have attributed to unions today were won by our
grandparents' or great-grandparents' unions, and are now codified in numerous
laws. That fight is won, and voters today, union or not, would never stand for
having those guarantees stripped away.The problem with unions now is
that when times are tough and an employer has to reduce costs, unions will not
allow anything to be taken from the employees. I don't advocate putting
everything on the backs of employees (I'm one), but for a company to survive,
sometimes everyone has to share in the pain.
The NEA does NOT support abortion. They weighed in on a Catholic nun's right to
carry her baby full term after being raped when leaving school late one evening.
This issue needs to be put to rest. They support a non-discriminatory workplace
and that is as far as they go on gay rights.Please let's all do a
minimal amount of research in order to stop theses mistruths from continuing.
On top of my issue with the NEA, the UEA claims to be doing ALL teachers a favor
by bargaining for their salaries and benefits. I have been called a "free
loader" because the UEA decides my pay. I don't want the UEA to decide my
pay! Obviously, they aren't doing teachers a favor! We are close to the lowest
payed teachers in the nation, if not the lowest. The UEA isn't helping teachers.
If I could bargain for my own salary, I would be able to negotiate a salary that
would work for me as an individual. I don't want a one sized fits all pay scale.
Nor do I want a union telling me how to vote. Mrs. Smith, thank you
for writing this article. It's refreshing to read an article from someone who
views things the way I do. The union politics are hurting not helping my
As a teacher, what scares me about the teachers union (UEA) is the forced
affiliation to the NEA. To be a member of the UEA on a district level, it is
required to also be a member of the NEA - an organization with a liberal agenda.
I do not want my hard earned salary going to support issues such as gay rights
or abortion, especially because the religion which I belong stands opposed to
the position the union takes on these issues. This would mean that, as a
teacher, if I joined the union and paid dues, I wouldn't have control over the
portion of that money that would go to the NEA. The stances the NEA takes would
be something I would know my money supports and I would have to look in the
mirror and know that I am supporting an organization which stands contrary to
many values I have sworn to uphold.
I cannot see that unions are any benefit to our nation and they are certainly a
ball and chain on the economy.
To "EJM | 11:36 a.m. " this is why your arguement is lame.If I was accused of inappropriate behavior with a customer (student), then I
can be fired on the spot.Educators are not fired until they have
handcuffs on and are being taken away after a criminal trial to go to prison.If you want to fix things, you can start by making both teachers and
students responsible. If a teacher's students consistantly fail a portion of
the state mandated testing, that teacher should be fired.If a
student does not pass the 3rd grade, they should be held back a year. If they
don't complete Highschool, they shouldn't get a diploma or certificate of
completion.The best thing we can do is make people responsible for
their own lives. Cut back the welfare programs to the point where life is hard
To Redshirt: I am glad that we have complex rules to fire teachers and here's
why. Let's say you are accused of inappropriate behavior with a student. Due
process protects you when are you are falsely accused. Every worker should be
afforded due process. With education it is spelled out so that there is no
argument as to what that process should entail and if the teacher is found
guilty then they are removed from their position. For those of us in the
education field who take teaching our students seriously this false accusation
stuff could hit us at any time when you have a student, or students, who want
revenge for poor grades that they earned. Students say all the time "Why
did you give me this grade?" when they should be saying "Why did I
earn this grade?" We have raised a generation of students who believe that
everything should be given to them. The concept of earning is foreign to them.
Unions didn't cause this. WE, as a society, have created this beast. Tell me
what you think we should do to fix it.
To "atl134 | 9:31 p.m." now we know why you want other people to run
your life for you. Thanks for letting us know.It does explain other
aspects of your posts. If you believe that Unions are better negociators than
you can be, what does that say about other sources that you don't question. Do
you also believe that the liberal media knows more about the world than you do?
What about groups like Media Matters, do they know more than you do about
Politics, and who is the best person to run for office?To "CHS
85 | 8:49 p.m." so what you are saying is that the fact that it takes 6
months to a 1 year to fire a teacher, that it is ok. Eventhough in industry it
takes about 5 minutes to do the same thing. Why is it that teachers should be
so protected? You do realize that the rules for firing a teacher are so complex
and difficult that it is nearly impossible to fire a bad teacher, unless they
have physically harmed a student.
As a teacher and a former union member I am glad that we are in a right to work
state. I don't agree with the union or its philosophy.
ksampow - really? When was the last time you saw and anti nuke march? And
what makes you think any of these people are ok with Iran having nukes. This
is ludicrous. More radio head talking points.Points made by people
who don't have to figure out how once you start a war, how to win it. We tried
that twice in the last decade. One was clearly justified, the other less so.
But neither had a solid plan on how to win the war. Winning a war doesn't end
mean you blow the holly snot out of somebody, but that you leave behind a stable
place afterward. We saw how hard that has been to come by in Iraq, why would
you think it would be any easier to do in Iran.Its how do you
prevent them getting nukes without starting an engagement where we are stuck
policing the region for the next 50 years. When you have that answer, we can
spring to action. Until then, building global support for any action is
required. If you have the magic answer - perhaps Beck or Limbaugh
shared it - please do pass it along.
Having been in a union, I was outraged at their assumption that the left wing
leaders would do all the decision making and members would do all of the paying.
Unions are the most repressive, anti-democratic organizations in the US. They
suppress excellence, protect incompetence and have lost more US jobs than any
"big corporation" outsourcing.
@redshirt"what you are saying is that you are so inept at
negociations that you would never be able to negociate better benefits or salary
for yourself?"Yes, you know why? Because those unions have such
a good track record of negotiating that conservatives want to go after them to
limit what they can do and claim that union workers are greedy and make too
much. Clearly those union employees must be getting something good out of it...
or the GOP is just lying about how good those union workers have it.
The UEA/NEA is definitely in collusion with the USBA/NSBA, SEIU, ACORN and many
other Unions and Associations. What" wrong with all of this? The problem
is that money from the backs of hard working teachers works its way to the union
bosses, who earn mega $$$ and then back into the coffers of corrupt politicians.
I hear that many teachers ask, "So what?" So what? That money is
from my pockets in the form of taxes. There is no added value in all of this.
Teachers suffer, students suffer and most of all we all suffer from the lack of
productivity in the economy. There is only so much our economy and wealth can
survive without an influx of hard work and wealth creation. I'm
sorry, but, I resent my hard earned tax monies going to waste.
@RedShirt"Teacher's Unions, you know, the ones that defend the
bad teachers and make it impossible to fire them."This is the
most tired argument out there. I implore you to look at the procedures for
eliminating employees in any school district. I'll bet you that in almost EVERY
case, there is a clear path to dismiss an ineffective teacher.If
MANAGEMENT is too lazy to follow the procedures they implemented in association
with labor, it is automatically labor's fault, right? Don't blame management
laziness on labor. Management needs to do it's job and quit looking for
scapegoats. How many union members haven't been indicted? I'm
guessing it is in the tens of millions of honest, hard-working employees.
Re: "Union haters - get back to work."Just a reminder --
it's not 1716 anymore. Hasn't been for a long time. Indentured servitude has
been outlawed. Overprotective labor laws are firmly in place.Union
bosses and shills still want us to think otherwise, though. And that the dark
ages will return the moment a union boss is held to account for his sexual
harassment, misuse of pension funds to support political cronies, or abuse of
rank and file for political gain.And, it's not like they can
actually do anything for rank and file today, anyway -- there's really nothing
to be done. Everything union bosses do these days has as its object preserving
their white-knuckle death grip on political power.Well, that and
trying to make us feel like we owe them for what others did generations ago.
And enforcing payroll collection of dues.Today's American trade
unions are the most cynical, worker-hostile organizations known to man.Everyone in rank and file knows it. Only lazy, mewling wannabee union
officials don't admit it.
Union haters - get back to work. There are no weekends, holidays or 8 hour
workday rules. Look at your boss wrong - you're gone. Why is your boss winking
at your wife? Nobody else will hire you because they all play golf together,
don't step out of line. Drop off your kids at thier work an hour early too.It's all happened in the western world and still happens in China. You
want to go back to that regressives? Figures.
To "LDS Liberal | 1:15 p.m." lets take a look at the saintly unions
you mention, and lets see how well they look after their members:Lets see, the Airline union, CWA-AFA, was recently found to be violating its
own voting rules on 5 searate occasions.The Air Traffic Contollers
union just had their President arrested in June of this year for wire fraud.The FireFighters union also had one of their local Presidents arrested
for fraud.The Police Officer's Union that defended the NY cops in
their corrupt practice of making tickets for fellow officers just
"disappear".Teacher's Unions, you know, the ones that
defend the bad teachers and make it impossible to fire them.There is
no such thing as a Doctor's union.The Nurse's Union is part of SEIU,
which also was recently investigated for raceterring.Engineer
unions, like the Boeing Union that prevented non-union people from negociating
their own contracts.It seems like once you look into most any union,
you end up with some sort of corruption. Why is that if they are only looking
out for the welfare of their members?
Re: "Clearly this is not just about unions getting more power."It's about unions getting more power.It's disingenuous to
assert substantial non-union support for repeal. This election was a
trade-union-funded political operation from start to finish, thwarting the will
of Ohio voters. Even the trade unions take credit.Ohio has 750,775
registered voters. Turnout was 46%. So, 345,357 total votes were cast. Thus,
Ohio's closed-shop public employee union [360,000 members] could easily have
pulled off the victory, just from its own membership.But, it didn't.
Ohio is a closed-shop state. Too many voters depend on union bosses for
continued employment. This permits them to called in a few favors and rig the
outcome of this election, covering their expenses -- and maybe more -- from
out-of-state trade union money pouring in from all over.The Ohio
election graphically illustrates the danger of enforced trade-union membership
laws -- they can be, were, and will be used in the future to subvert the will of
listing a bunch of occupations represented by unions does not make an argument
about the corruption or lack of corruption in unions. lol, rolling my eyes.
Unions are some of the largest contributers to Obama's campaign.
Unions make billions of dollars and pay no taxes. Uniouns pay huge bonuses to
their leaders. Doesn't that put them up there with the 1% the left is so want
to hate? Could be why only 7% of the national workforce is actually represented
RedShirt | 10:35 a.m. Nov. 16, 2011 USS Enterprise, UT To "LDS
Liberal | 9:41 a.m. " actually, you are wrong. The Unions are a hotbed of
corruption and highly questionable activities.Other than the unions
for miners, railroads, and and a few other high risk unions, the unions are
typically corrupt organizations that fight more for their own existance than for
their workers.============== actually, you are wrong.
Airline Pilots, Air Traffic Contollers, FireFighters,
Police Officers, Teachers, Doctors, Nurses, Engineers, Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers.... That list goes On-and-OnIn your skewed perception, America is just
chuck FULL of shady and "evil" Union members, bent on the total
destruction of America! (rolling my eyes) ha-ha-ha.
To "atl134 | 12:00 p.m." so, what you are saying is that you are so
inept at negociations that you would never be able to negociate better benefits
or salary for yourself?Basically, you would rather turn big
decisions over to somebody else. Personally, I would like to make my own
decisions as much as possible.To "Harvey1950 | 12:08 p.m."
yes, do you think it is a great thing to keep around an organization that does
not add any value to the work place?I would love to reduce the
Federal Government, not eliminate it. There is too much wasted money in
I belong to the UEA. I like the work they do. I wish the NEA would stay out of
national politics (foreign policy, gun control, etc.). Focus in on education.
When you take policy positions in areas not in your expertise you can come
Having researched this more, the article is flawed in many other ways. It fails
to point out SB5 attacked all public unions in many ways- not just dues. Ohio
has 360,000 public employees and yet they got over 1.3 million signatures for
the referendum. Clearly this is not just about unions getting more power. It
also failed to mention that the pro-SB5 people did not disclose their financial
records in the campaign but many independent sources believe it was more than
the $30 million from the referendum group. The referendum was also funded almost
entirely from donations by public employees not from their paycheck dues.
Whereas the anti-referendum people received most of their money came from
out-of-state groups like ALEC, the Koch Brothers, and Rupert Murdoch. I
love how movements by the people are spun as a bad thing in many media sources
and yet government movements- like Ohio's SB5, Utah's voucher movement, etc. are
spun as good for the people. I thought capitalism promoted small government
involvement in how organizations are run. Apparently more and more conservatives
view Capitalism as let us control things not the people.
Really? UEA and it's local affiliates do promote a quality education for every
Utah public school child. Utah "unions" are not allowed by law to have
"forced dues." Educators in Utah join the "unionized"
professional organization of UEA because they want real representation,
solutions, professional development, and a say in their workplace and their
careers. Unlike AAE and Ms. Smith's postion, which are funded by pro-voucher and
anti-public education entities, our local NEA and UEA affiliates are dependent
on member dues.
To "RedShirt | 10:35 a.m."If corruption and fighting for
existance is your measuring stick for eliminating organizations, then you
certainly must be for eliminating the federal government, and state and local
governments, too. Definitely political action committees. Oh, and don't forget
big business, and small business, for that matter. Oh, and let's eliminate
colleges and universities (especially sports programs!), special interest
groups, non-profit organizations...and churches!--probably should have listed
@RedShirt"Imagine you were forced to contribute $1000 each year to
the Heritage Foundation. Would you like that, or would you want to get rid of
the law that forced you to contribute to the Heritage Foundation? "That depends, did the Heritage Foundation get me better salary and
benefits like health insurance?
"UEA have grown into a behemoth special-interest group that funds an agenda
that is out of step with Utahns"I would ask Mrs. Smith what these
issues are. She doesn't appear to feel the need to actually back up her argument
with these crazy things called facts. But that's the way conservative media
works these days. Just throw out the scariest buzz word you can. Seriously, I
almost always disagree with the dude. But the commentor Redshirt includes more
facts in his comments than this entire editorial.
To "LDS Liberal | 9:41 a.m. " actually, you are wrong. The Unions are
a hotbed of corruption and highly questionable activities.Other than
the unions for miners, railroads, and and a few other high risk unions, the
unions are typically corrupt organizations that fight more for their own
existance than for their workers.Actually, unions believe in
"free rides", or at least rides that are as close to free as possible.
For example, the UAW has its rules set so tightly that they control the number
of parts that an employee can work on in a day. If that employee finishes their
parts in 3 hours, they get paid for 8 and go home. Nothing can be done to
change that job, nor can that employee be fired.Read the article
"UAW Members Expose Widespread Corruption" at Labornotes (Pro-Union
web site). They list the MANY corrupt practices of the modern UAW.You complain about the Gadiantons ruining things, but you continue to support
them in their various names. In this case, Unions are part of that problem.Also, you never answered the original question. Would you accept a law
that required you to contribute to the Heritage Foundation?
I'm surprised we haven't heard the scream yet --- In Utah it's NOT a union, it's
an Association!Unions are no different than a company -- it's all
about money. Unions are all about money; nothing more, nothing less. There is no
disputing it. Unions are just as bad as the companies they deplore.There should be absolutely no public unions since the public (the people
paying for it) are not represented at the table. Don't tell me that elected
officials are there for the public because we know that's not true. And here I thought LDS Lib was about choice. I want to be a teacher in Ohio
because that's what I love to do. I'm great at it and students love to be in my
class. You're telling me I should go do something else because I don't want to
be forced to join a union? UnbelievableAlso, why don't I get a vote
on where my forced-union dues go for political purposes? I'm not a
Commie/Socialist and would never contribute to their coffers. Why should my
union dues go to those causes without my permission? Why don't they go for
After all that mud and hate for the workers unions for teacher, the writer
recommends the joining of a competing union. She probably thinks that because
it is labeled as an association it is not the same as a union. Mostly we are all part of the greatest union ever, called the United States of
America. It is a forced union for its members, they have to pay dues, called
taxes. It is also a totally voluntary union, no one is forced to be a citizen.
The important thing about the USA is that it has greatly benefited the members,
called citizens. And like the AAE, and the teachers union, it was created for
that purpose. Worker union bashing is a standard capitalistic
weapon in their never ending quest to have cheap labor. And they consider the
USA as their enemy just as much as the teachers union.
If I had a business and a union leader came in and said he was going to
organnize my company I would quit or take it overseas. Up to now $15 trillion
has gone that way.
The NLRB will lose their fight with Boeing over a new plant to assembly the 787
Dreamliner in South Carolina which is a right to work state.President Reagan had the right idea when the Air Traffic Controllers (PATCO)
got to big for their britches. He fired them, decertified their union, and
refused to rehire the repentant workers who belatedly saw the error of their
RedShirt | 8:00 a.m. Nov. 16, 2011 USS Enterprise, UT To "LDS
Liberal | 7:04 a.m." since when it it ok to force somebody to join
something taht they don't want to join?=============== If you don't want to join a Union, don't hire into a Union job.No one is
"forcing" you to do anything. It's really that simple.BTW - One doesn't not always "have" to join the Union.You can
always opt out, but if you sit in a Union represented position, you are still
required to pay an "Agency Fee".RedShirt, You would be the first
to acknowledge that in America, Nobody should ride for Free. Unions share fact
with you.In my experience - if you pay the fee - you might as well
enjoy all the rest of the benefits that Unions have to offer.i.e.,
Vacation, Sick Leave, Retirement, Seniority, Healthcare, 401K, 40 hr work week +
1.5 over-time, filing Grieveances, and free Legal counsel.You know -
everything that created MIDDLE America in the 1st place.FYI -- I
feel more exploited and taken advantaged of by having to pay for 2 Wars we
should never have been in in the 1st place.
Oh please.the repub Ohio government wasn't looking to help anyone.
Especially teachers. they were merely looking to punish teachers and win their
ideological war. They were looking to take away the CBA from unions and
teachers. Ridiculous.It's a shame we see so many like this letter
writer bashing teachers.Teachers in Utah put up with a lot of crap.
Terrible salaries, largest class sizes, and constant complaining from the far
right. Lets stop bashing teachers and unions and start supporting them. Whenever
I hear anyone complain about unions, I remember the poem:First they
came for the communists,and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a
communist.Then they came for the trade unionists,and I didn't
speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.Then they came for the
Jews,and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.Then they
came for meand there was no one left to speak out for me.Who
is going to stop big business? Who is going to stop our bought off government?
Who's going to protect the workers?
Major flaw to this argument is that Capitalism says these teachers are not
"forced" to pay for those dues. The teachers in Ohio fully understand
they have dues taken from their checks, like in other states. If they choose to
teach in Ohio they accept these dues as part of working there. Teachers in Utah
understand they don't have to pay the dues and still receive all the benefits
the teachers union provides for them.They piggy back off the members of the
unions and don't have to pay a thing here for all the benefits they get. Ohio
makes all teacher spay since they all receive the same benefits from the union.
So Capitalism dictates that the best employees will go where they think
they get the greatest benefits. As Utah continues to destroy the teaching
profession, watch lots of teachers flee to states to like Ohio- where unions
still help the teachers.
To "LDS Liberal | 7:04 a.m." since when it it ok to force somebody to
join something taht they don't want to join?The teachers do not
"feel" forced, they are forced.Imagine you were forced to
contribute $1000 each year to the Heritage Foundation. Would you like that, or
would you want to get rid of the law that forced you to contribute to the
The legacy of unions in America= made in China.
Well yeah there's dues but if the size of the paycut and lost benefits people
want thrown at you is more than the amount of the dues is, then are you
surprised that teachers are just cool with the whole union thing?
This article is deliberately deceptive. The issue in Ohio was not about right
to work. It WAS union busting, because it prohibited collective bargaining. I
would have supported legislation to make Ohio a Right-To-Work state. Employees
ought to have the choice, as they do in Utah. But to prohibit public unions is
to take advantage of public employees.
Charity,Your op ed is filled with misconceptions and misrepresentations.
But, I have to give you credit, you are touting the rhetoric we are hearing from
those who do not care about the middle class quite well. The UEA is 18,000
teachers. Your organization does nothing to help students or teachers. I know
this because of teachers who could not be helped by your
"non-political" group. I have one question for you, "How is being
non-political in the world of education a good thing?" Everything done in
classrooms has been decided by a policymaker. Quite frankly, I think teachers
should be running scared from an organization which claims to advocate for
students and teachers while being non-political. Your thoughts do
not resonate in Utah as you are comparing agency fee states to a right-to-work
state. BTW, the citizens of Ohio clearly feel differently as this was defeated
with a resounding vote of the people. Citizens of this great country are tired
of the negative and spiteful rhetoric. We are ready for solutions not
Union work like these United States -- United we stand, divided we
fall.Ask a Southern 150 years later if they feel "Forced"
into the Union and the answer will still be "yes".
So why do we compare a right to work state such as Utah to states such as Ohio
and Wisconsin when we want to rip on teacher unions? It is as if we are
comparing oranges to rutabagas. No comparison whatsoever. When I see articles
or letters written from former classroom teachers ripping on the Utah Education
Association, a special interests behemoth (that's a keeper line right there) my
only thought is "Are you kidding me?" If the UEA had as much power as
the author and people such as Senator Stephenson think we had then we would not
be the lowest funded (in terms of the education "beast) in the entire
country. What are these folks afraid of? Again, this is Utah where the sheep
usually follow the shepherd pretty easily. We don't have forced unionism here
and probably never will and that is a good thing. Free agency is a nice word
bandied about here in our great state. We have it. So tell me what scares you
all so much about the UEA? I ask you this question honestly. What scares you?
AAE is a front organization for the far-right Hume foundation. Membership in
AAE buys you nothing, while the Education Association is out there fighting for
a little more money and a little more respect from our hostile legislature. As
for "forced union membership," we don't have that in Utah. A
free-riding AAE teacher can sit back and watch while others battle the
legislature and pay their dues, contribute nothing and still reap the benefits
of others' labor. Nice little club...