Comments about ‘Some truths are 'most worth knowing,' Pres. Boyd K. Packer tells students’

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Published: Sunday, Nov. 6 2011 10:13 p.m. MST

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Montana Mormon
Miles City, MT

Vanka:

I have been pondering your deep questions since I read them this morning. I don't presume to have the answers to your questions, especially in 200 words or less (or even more), but in a spirit of friendship, I would like to share a couple of things I have been pondering today regarding your questions.

First off, I have been thinking about the words to one of our sacrament hymns that resonates deeply with me: "I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me. Confused at the grace that so fully He proffers me. I tremble to know that for me He was crucified, that for me, a sinner, He suffered, He bled, and died. Oh, it is wonderful that He should care for me enough to die for me. Oh it is wonderful, wonderful to me." That's from the heart.

The other thought that I have had was to suggest you read--perhaps you have done so already--James Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ." In particular, chapter three discusses need of a savior.

I respect you for the hard questions you ask because it shows that you think deeply about these things.

All my best,

Montana Mormon

Vanka
Provo, UT

Montana Mormon,

I appreciate your kind response. Hymns and Talmage fail to answer the issue.

That Jesus "died for me" may pluck the heart strings (and be misinterpreted as "the Spirit"), but it is meaningless unless his death somehow dealt with the alleged "sins" of individual humans.

But Mormon doctrine is all over the map on this:

LDS doctrines teach against the idea of "original sin" (2nd AoF), as well as teaching that children cannot sin (nor be tempted) until they reach the age of accountability (age 8; see Moro. 8:1021; D&C 29:4647 and D&C 68:2527). Yet you baptize them at age 8 "for the remission of sins".

You teach that humans are not punished for Adam's transgression, but insist that mankind is in a "lost and fallen state" (Alma 12:22). Being "lost and fallen" is not punishment?

Yet the Lord supposedly said: "Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good." (Moses 6:55) How is this different than "original sin"?

skeptic
Phoenix, AZ

If it is a describable truth then it can be proven, if it can not be proven then it is not a truth. All the people who go around claiming they know things that can not be know, or proven, are just fooling themselves or taking advantage of other's innocence. Too many people live off of making others think they know what others can't know or prove

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

Vanka,

You said, "But Mormon doctrine is all over the map on this"

I think this is where your problems finding reasonable answers may be originating. You won't find them in books, even in the Book of Mormon, in anything. Revelation comes through inspiration. Reading a specific line in the Book of Mormon may mean nothing to me one day, then the next day it means everything. Why? Not because of the book. The book didn't change. Because I was ready for it, to learn it, and receptive.

We pray for our answers. I know you've said you have with no results before- but I'm not trying to say 'you need to pray' or 'you're not praying, so obviously you're wrong.' Because I really don't know what you do in your life.

All I do know, is that you won't find your answers just by looking for official statements, books, and so on. I've only ever been successful through prayer, not study alone.

My main point here is that citing books as conflicting is illogical where most members who've prayed see no conflict in different statements. Not because of blindness to reason, but understanding more clearly, only through prayer.

Vanka
Provo, UT

VoR,

Thank you for your response.

I must confess, I am a bit unclear as to your point.

You seem to be saying perhaps I am not praying in the proper way. I have prayed in every way possible for over 20 years. No answer.

You wrote: "You won't find [answers] in books, even in the Book of Mormon, in anything."

"Because I was ready for it, to learn it, and receptive."

So you are saying I am just "not ready"? After 20 years of searching? Please explain what TRUE "ready" means?

"but I'm not trying to say 'you need to pray' or 'you're not praying, so obviously you're wrong.'"

Actually, that sounds exactly like what you are saying.

"My main point here is that citing books as conflicting is illogical where most members who've prayed see no conflict in different statements. Not because of blindness to reason, but understanding more clearly, only through prayer."

Then please, as one who presumably understands "more clearly", explain the conflicting issues I raised. For instance, why criticize Catholics for performing infant baptisms, but then baptize sinless 8 year olds "for the remission of sins"?

Your comment is confusing.

Weber State Graduate
Clearfield, UT

Unfortunately, it appears the following comment does not meet the terms necessary to get by the moderators. I'll try again by making it clear that I certainly mean no disrespect to any one person or organization..it's a general standard that should apply to everyone, including myself.

Truthful messages, however most worth knowing, cannot compensate for the concealment of untruths. Those who fail to acknowledge untruths cannot presume to claim a monopoly on absolute truth...those truths "most worth knowing."

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

Vanka, we'll try this again.

My point is not- "well, obviously you got something wrong with prayer" or anything even similar.

I agree, I worded it horribly. Here is another attempt-

Many doctrines I have found I have not understood from my own capacity to reason, but only through God's revealing it. God not only authorized my knowing it, as I am ready to understand it. But God also is a better teacher than I can reason for myself. This doesn't necessarily mean you aren't ready, good enough, or anything like it. From my perspective (believing, I mean) I'd say "who knows why you haven't got an answer yet, maybe you have and deny it, maybe you just haven't". I don't really know. So please understand, I am making no judgement about you or even your experiences.

I am only saying- just keep asking God with an open heart. Why? Not to push you to my belief, or even to claim 'you just aren't praying right'. But this:

IF some things are only understood through revelation, not through our own capacity to reason... THEN prayer, despite previously being unanswered, would still be the doctrinally correct approach.

That clarify?

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