"Some truths are more useful..." Is that equivalent to Some things
that are true are not very useful.?
If "all truth is worth knowing", then I highly recommend reading Grant
Palmer's book, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins". This book was
sold at Deseret Books and is very interesting. Read it, then you can decide
which truths are "most worth knowing".
"all truth is worth knowing"... Unless it is truth against the
teachings or credibility of the church... then it is not worth knowing.
I love this talk. President Packer has a way of stating things exactly the way
I only hope that more LDS members follow the message of this story: it is the
mediator/redeemer who will dole out justice not the people of this earth. It is
our job to show mercy and allow Christ to judge what form of justice people
receive. Too many people in Utah, especially Utah county, feel they must be the
ones to make sure justice is dealt for any sinner or debtor. True believers in
Christ understand that the afterlife is the place of judgment and our job on
this earth is to live in a way where we work towards our own judgement. If we
are so worried about making sure others have consequences we feel they should
have instead of worrying about the consequences of our own actions, we will be
judged for that. It is our job to try and live like Christ did- with
unconditional love and mercy in our hearts every day. We must live in a way that
only helps our fellow man. If love is in our hearts and we are striving toward
perfect love, we are following Christ. If we are worried about giving justice to
others- that is not love.
Truth never changes unless of course a truth isn't convenient to your view or
doesn't help to advance your agenda. I've learned so many truths
about religion that the one truth I've learned that is indisputable is that NO
religion has a corner on all truth and ALL religions are founded on errors mixed
with truths. Elder Packer recommends that we find the truths most
worth knowing. Since Mormons are expected to spend a minimum of 3 hours a week
at church and also give to the LDS church at least 10% of their income, I
strongly recommend they know the FULL truth of the LDS church. I suggest that
every Mormon research the truth of the LDS church from all sources both inside
and outside of the church. Search truths about the LDS church that are
positive, negative and neutral. I recommend that you watch "The
Mormons" that PBS aired in 2007. You can find that on their website. It
provided a balanced snapshot of the LDS Church. Other very useful, neutral
websites are available that help you think through and find truths about the LDS
Church.In your search for truth, THINK with your full mind.
@ThinkmanYes search the full truth and become educated. I did that
and am currently doing that. Testimony stronger because of it. Sorry that my
conclusion is not what you probably wanted.
Wait a minute!Just why is a 'Mediator' a necessity? It didn't seem
necessary for folks in the old Testament. They seemed to do OK without One.
For example, Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden and apparently got retrieve.
This being centuries before the 'Mediator' even showed up on the scene to
explain the program or pay the debt.Why not just work out an
agreement for repayment of the obligation direct with the 'Creditor?' And don't
say it won't work. One has to obtain 'perfection' to enter the 'Creditor's'
kingdom whether there's a 'Mediator' or not. That should be payment enough.Furthermore, since the debt is between man and the 'Creditor,' it would
seem only fair that He'd show up more often to clear up concerns about debt
payment options. Don't we read in the Old Testament where the 'Creditor' walked
daily with His people? Plus, the world is full of so-called non Christians who
don't even believe in the 'mediator' or the 'Creditor.' It would help to get
some degree of face time for them. On the whole, there seems to be
too much secrecy and arbitrariness about the whole affair. So, go figure.
APOV, It is interesting that BP Packer left out of his talk in dealing
with Gods righteousness and Christs redemption, another of Christs nature which
is Grace.Justice, getting what we deserveMercy, not getting
what we deserveGrace, getting what we dont deserveHe totally
leaves out grace. In his parable, he describes Christ as a debt consolidation
mediator, when in fact when Jesus uttered on the cross, it is finished, he PAYED
THE DEBT (sin) in full. He gave us what we didnt deserve, and asked only that
we accept and follow Him. Another theological omission that helps create the
When you bring a religious perspective to it, 'truth' becomes an almost entirely
subjective commodity. Anything can be truth, nothing can be truth, and the
medium itself, to quote Marshall MacLuhan, becomes the message. There are truths
worth knowing. Mine may be different than yours.
I met Elder Packer once. Very interesting man. He sure is looking old. I haven't
always agreed with what he preaches, but you can't fault him for mincing words.
He tells it how he sees it.I agree with Neanderthal, but take it a
bit further. IF I owed a "spiritual debt" (what does that even mean?),
why would I need to go through a huge bureaucracy of mediators: local Bishop to
get baptized and confirmed, Stake President for temple recommend, various layers
of Church hierarchy up through the Quorum of the 12 Apostles and the First
Presidency - I have to go through them to get the word of god in order to obey
it so that I can be cleansed from sin. Only then do I get access to Jesus
Christ, but that is done ONLY through yet another "mediator": the Holy
Ghost.It seems a just and righteous god would have been able to
create something much more efficient and effective than this MLM-like model.But I would have to be convinced that I owed a "spiritual
debt" in the first place. What exactly is this "spiritual debt"?
I don't believe in it. Why should I?
I don't think our relationship with God or his son is a debtor/creditor
relationship. We are God's creation. Christ is our brother. Lastly, mercy does
not rob justice. It is a gift.
This is a serious question. I am not "trolling" to make
"anti-" comments. I really want to know.The article
paraphrases Packer as saying: "All people live on spiritual
credit."I don't.I never borrowed anything from god
or Jesus, much less anything "spiritual".If a stranger (or
two strangers in shirts and ties) come to your door telling you you owe a debt,
are you just going to accept that? "Oh, OK, you guys look honest. How much
do I owe you?"This is the crux of religion's thesis, upon which
everything else depends: what is the nature of this so-called "spiritual
debt" all humans are supposed to have incurred? And how, exactly, does/did
Roman soldiers' killing Jesus somehow "pay" that debt? To whom was the
debt owed? God the Father? How did killing His own Son "pay" that
strange debt? What was the nature of God's loss such that Jesus' blood being
spilt re-compensated God?Moreover, I understood LDS doctrine to deny
the notion of "original sin", AND to base "sin" on
knowledge: one cannot be guilty of sin if one never knew the "law".
Since you can't know what I know: John8:46.
I'm very happy for those whose testimonies are stronger. Have you
researched why Joseph used a rock in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. Did
you find out that the Book of Abraham papyrus was actually funeral proceedings
and not a history of Abraham, his life, and the Creation? In your
search for the full truth, did you discover that the temple ordinances have
changed multiple times from the time that Joseph Smith revealed them? In your
search for the full truth did you also read the Nauvoo Expositor text and how it
actually pleaded with love and respect to Joseph Smith to change his ways? Did
you also know that Joseph Smith married other men's wives who were still
married?I want all Mormons (I'm a Mormon) to search the full truth
no matter how hard it may be to read and then think through your decision on how
much you want the LDS Church to be part of your life. If the LDS Church is the
center of your life and you have made it so after searching the full truth of it
then I applaud you and wish you all happiness.
I just always think it is so sad that all these unhappy people keep trying to
solve their problems and justify their unfortunate choices by attacking those
who teach truth. You don't have to be this unhappy, you know. You can repent
and change. I promise you it will be worth it. You will find joy in your life
and have a great burden lifted off your shoulders. President
Packer's talk was AWSOME!
Dalefarr, the opportunity to repent is the gift, given by Christ; if we do not
repent, we are alone to face justice by ourselves.
When I searched the truth of the LDS church from sources positive towards the
church, neutral to it and even negative towards it and then thought through all
the claims from each of these sides, I came to the undeniable conclusion that
the LDS church has no more authority or truth than any other religion or church,
Christian or otherwise.I did take Moroni's challenge and even taught
multitudes of people on my Mormon mission to do the same. I came to the
conclusion that the Book of Mormon and the LDS church were what they claimed to
be. I came to that conclusion because I wanted them to be true even after
studying the gospel, teaching it and fasting and praying about and attending the
temple faithfully for over 2 decades. However, after thinking it through,
seriously studying the claims of the LDS church, I found it it wasn't in fact
true.I've never been happier than I am today. Why? Because my
happiness depends on me and no one else - not my membership or status in a
church, not God, not my wife, not my children, not my friends. I am happy
because I choose to be.
wow, didn't know there so many people out there so much smarter than President
Packer- he will be surprised that he is so wrong on things and I am sure he will
come around to all of your 'enlightened' thinking
It sounds like a lot of people are trying to convince themselves of thier own
truths. Just because we believe something strong enough doesn't make it a
>Some things that are true are not very useful.That's an obvious
truth, and a very useful one itself.For example, I know that Kim
Kardashian and her husband filed for divorce after a bit over two months of
marriage. That's a truth that is not useful to me to any degree or for any
purpose other than its use in this example. Fortunately, I spent no real time or
effort discovering that truth about Ms. Kardashian and her husband, so I haven't
really lost out on the deal too terribly much.On the other hand,
knowing that people who mock, etc., the observation that not all truths were
created equal are typically intellectually slothful and more often than not
lacking in character is very useful, since I am committed to associating only
with a better class of people, and that knowledge helps me avoid the gutter
I have the impulse to describe how funny many of these posts have struck me, but
it would take too long.I have always enjoyed President Packer's
talks. He is a great teacher and has an almost unlimited capacity of making
complex ideas accessible to anyone. I love to hear him speak.I know
that, because of both his clarity of expression and his willingness to speak out
about difficult subjects, he has often been the subject of attacks. I came on
this thread today expecting to find exactly what I found: a multitude of people
seeking to discredit President Packer, his message, or the Church. It was the
fulfillment of my expectation that made me laugh.
@Cats, it is really too bad that you constantly see those who are not in line
with your belief system as being unhappy. Is this the typical viewpoint of LDS,
or just yours? I see your posts time and time again on these boards as
allegedly feeling sorry for all of these people who you label as unhappy.
Perhaps you may want to chose to see the world thru different lenses for awhile
and accept that there are many very happy people in this world, whether or not
they are LDS. And constantly judging others as unhappy as you frequently do
says quite a bit about how you see the world.
@dalefarr:"We are God's creation."So, where is
He? No one has ever seen Him, except maybe one or two people as recorded in
history. And how correct is that history, anyway? No wonder there's so many
'truths' i.e., religions in the world today. If God is in charge, He sure
doesn't seem at all interested. Perhaps the Deists have it right."Christ is our brother."Why doesn't Christ have alotta
brothers... and sisters? Why did God only have one Son, Christ? Just think,
the earth could have been full of very powerful, Christ-like creatures instead
of what we have now."Lastly, mercy does not rob justice. It is
a gift."Gift? It takes alotta work to realize the 'gift.'
Cats - are you saying that there is a correlation between happiness and
mormonism?? Maybe you are not aware, but that statement means that you think
that 99.9 percent of the world is unhappy, because only 1/10 of 1 percent of the
world is mormon. Wow, must mean that nearly all of the world is unhappy. Huh,
that is an odd statement.
"There is no part of pornography that is innocent, he said. "To
collect it, view it, or carry it around in any form is akin to keeping a
rattlesnake in your backpack. It exposes you to the inevitable spiritual
equivalent of the serpent's strike with its injection of deadly venom. One can
easily understand, with the world being what it is, that you can almost
innocently be exposed to it, to read it, or to view it without realizing the
terrible consequences. If that describes you, I warn you to stop it. Stop it
now."I agree with his words here, and I would add that it is
almost impossible (perhaps it is impossible) to remove the visual images of
pornography completely from your mind. There will be triggers the rest of your
life that will open that file cabinet in your mind and bring up those images.
Pornography can be debilitating to your spirit. You may be able to repent, but
you may not be able to completely heal from its consequences during the rest of
your mortal life.
I find the truth in my heart and mind. I don't need a third party to translate
anything. I take things with a grain of salt. If I hear something in church that
I just can't wrap myself around, I dismiss it. I don't believe in having to walk
in lockstep with anybody. After all, Jesus didn't.
Vanka,Do you believe in pre-existance or that you were in any
"form" before you were born. If not than it doesn't matter. If you
do, how do you know you didn't obtain a "spiritual debt?" Christ didn't pay for the sins of mankind on the cross. It happened in the
Garden of Gesthemane. And no I don't know the ins and outs of exactly what went
on. All I know is that it happened. The willingness to give his life on the
cross was the sealing of his mission and life with his own blood.
Thinkman-I will not go to the Nauvoo Expositor to find out the truth
about the mormons. Just like I will not go to the Nazi's to find our the truth
about the Jews.
>I don't believe in having to walk in lockstep with anybody. After all, Jesus
didn't.Other than that whole obeying the commandments and emulating
Thanks Cats, your statement is only reaffirmed by follow up comments made.If a person is "happy" or content with their belief system and their
life, why then would they have this unquenchable need to respond to every LDS
article that appears.If you don't believe LDS doctrine, do you seriously
believe that the bashing of our beliefs is going to show us how much kinder,
Christlike and "happy" you really are, thus causing us to want to join
Mick,Would you go to the cigarette companies to see how
"safe" they were? Or would it make more sense to seek out independent
research and resources? Im not trying to compare the LDS church to tobacco at
all, merely pointing out that it can be a good idea as well to seek out other
L Kaiser-Not a good comparison at all. The problem with the Nauvoo
Expositor is that they were sworn enemies of Joseph Smith and sought his life.
They made blood oaths to kill him and bring down the church. (See William Law
conspirators) A bit biased. Just like the ciagrette companies would be about
the product they are selling.The LDS church is not selling a
product. Join or don't join. You have free agency and choice. It won't stop
the missionaries or President Packer from sharing the message.Once
again, my comparison a bit better. I would not go to the Nazi's to find out
about the Jews.
@ thinkman and L. Kaiser: Your suggestions that Latter-day Saints investigate
"other views" is not a bad suggestion per se. Part of what is
annoying about it is the apparent assumption that, if anyone believes in the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it can only be because they have
not sufficiently investigated opposing viewpoints.I do know people
who have left the Church because, somewhere along the way, they have discovered
something in Church history or doctrine that they had never heard nor understood
before, and their faith was shaken, but those people are rare in my experience.
I know far more people who know the doctrines, history, and practices of the
Church very thoroughly (myself among them) and maintain firm belief in the
teachings and the practices of the Church.It is also annoying for
other people to try to define our beliefs for us. This is often couched in
language that belittles the belief or presents it in a disparaging way. You
will find that most practicing, active Latter-day Saints have a pretty good
understanding of the core of what they believe; we don't need outsiders or
disaffected insiders to define it for us.
The 'truth?' I am a decent human being.
I can't say I am a decent human being on the Deseret News??? I guess
part of being 'civilized' according to this news paper... is
anything EXCEPT what I say.
The Vanka/VankaI see you have started out with the name The VANKA look
forward to reading the 8 or so comments you will make on this article
RE: HutteriteIf a "truth" is a "subjective
commodity", then, by definition, it is not truth.--RE: ThinkmanYou have not given a single shred of
evidence that the LDS church does not contain the fullness of truth.I believe the the LDS Church is the true Church of God and Christ on this
earth.I have never been given any reason to doubt it, no
matter how enticing and crafty and convincing the words of adversary are, no matter that imperfect people have done imperfect things,that does not change what is true.--RE: Vanka YOu are overthinking a simple analogy,an analogy on how
repentance and the atonement of Christ works.When you sin, a
"debt" must paid to GOd to meet the demands of Justice.Christ, the imtermediary, will pay for that debt, if you repent and sin no
more, however, due to the nature of the sin sometimes more than just
repentance is nececessary for Justice to be satisfied, repentance
plus those things are the things Christ asks of you.with that you avoid
spiritual prison, figurative or literal, for that sin.
the truth,I appreciate your response, but find it inadequate.In your explanation of the simple analogy, you presume that
"sin" is patently understood and self-evident. It is not.You write: "due to the nature of the sin sometimes more than just
repentance is nececessary for Justice to be satisfied."What
exactly is the nature of sin? In what does "sin" consist?How does "sin" create a "debt" to God (or to
"Justice")? Does it rob god of something? What is taken from God and
how is God diminished by the taking? Is not God infinite and eternal? How can
the infinite and eternal be diminished and need (demand) to be reimbursed?Who or what is this force in the universe called "Justice" of
which you speak? How is it that this abstraction called "Justice" is
more powerful than God and can make demands on God to force Him to comply? How
much blood does Justice "require"?If God must comply with
a force called "Justice", then believers would be wise to worship
Justice and not God. Some of us atheists do that already. We believe in Justice
and need no God in between.
Full-on double rainbow,If you look at Kantian ethics vs Virtue
ethics I think you might understand this principle more clearly.Kantian ethics is very black and white. "A" is wrong, under EVERY
circumstance. This isn't the way the LDS moral paradigm works. We don't believe
in relativism as there are things have an absolute and rational explanation.
However, there sometimes is a more 'ladder type approach' to our morals.The reason why I say there are things absolute is because we don't
support what some call a 'grey area'. However, we do believe that despite
something not necessarily being wrong... there is a better way.While
it may not be wrong to seek justice for someone punching you, that doesn't mean
you wouldn't be better for being forgiving, and so on.So while there
are some truths that are more pertinent to our current events or current
progress in eternity, there are certainly other truths which are entirely worth
knowing and good- but less important.While I could discuss whether
God is a polygamist, what color of hair He REALLY has... it could even have
importance in some circumstance, but obviously the covered topics were more
@Thinkman,Hey, thanks for that tip. I've heard all sort of things
about the church both inside and out. I've lived all over and even lived 2 years
in Mexico (yes, it was a mission) and after hearing all different
"ideas" that either are true or completely misinterpreted or made up
(yes, some people do make up things about the church to make us look bad. Weird,
huh?), I know, even more than I did yesterday, that this church is true. People
say we are delusional but I can say, with all of my heart and soul and without
even the slightest shadow of a doubt, that this is true. In fact, I just
finished reading the BOM for the day and I know even more now that it is true.
Isn't that crazy how it works?
Neanderthal | 10:20 a.m. Nov. 7, 2011 Good question, maybe you're
ready for the LDS Missionaries to visit.
I read these comments and how there are arguments going back and forth on what
is truth, what isn't truth, religion bad, religion good blah blah blah. Bottom
line, those who don't want religion don't want relgion, so quit pushing it on
them and those who want religion and a testimony have the right to have that
testimony without the anti relgion crowd trying to denegrate the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am an active member of that church, I love the
Church, I have a testimony of the truths of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints. If after we all die it turns out to be wrong then so be it, I was
wrong and if it turns out to be true then so be it. I won't knock the anti
religious views of athiests but I expect the athiests and those who dislike the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to give me the same respect and I
don't need to read the research of those who are bent on ruining the Church.
What credibility to they have on being subjective in the matter.
This life is for all the marbles. Our potential is far beyond playing harps on
clouds. We have the potential for unending joy in the presence of our Father.
The debt we owe is for our disobedience to the truths He reveals. The debt we
owe is to justice, or perhaps to the people we have hurt. Or to their Heavenly
Father. Or to all of the above?You say that justice is higher than
God. I respectfully disagree. Would you have a God Who denied justice? Or
would you have One Who did not apply mercy? Or would you not want a loving God
who meets justice and also applies mercy? We are not perfect. We
cannot make ourselves perfect. Not without the grace and mercy of God. He will
extend that mercy if we do all we can to follow His Son and accept His Son's
essential role in our eternal lives. So we leave off where we
began. We have the potential for a great, unimaginable, and joyful future that
we do not deserve on our own. I'm extremely greatful for a beautiful plan which
provides that opportunity through such a perfect Mediator as Jesus Christ.
@Mick:"Christ didn't pay for the sins of mankind on the
cross.:Wait a minute. If He, for some reason, were to have avoided
death on the cross and died a natural death in His old age, would sins have been
paid for?"It happened in the Garden of Gethsemane."What happened in the Garden? All we know from writings of the incident
is that he agonized and sweat alot. "All I know is that it
happened. The willingness to give his life on the cross was the sealing of his
mission and life with his own blood."There, you have it.
Giving up His life is the operative phrase.
Wow, some amazing comments here. I think a real important distinction between
the two camps is this: If you are told the answer, and then told to pray for
confirmation, you' may get that confirmation. But if you just seek truth,
without being told the answer you should arrive at, well, you'll come up with
something else.For those who receive confirmation the book of mormon
is true, they really aren't making a historical judgment (in my opinion). I
think they look at the value system and it feels like a good thing - and it may
well be for them. For those that seek to know whether the BOM is historically
true, they will most likely arrive at a different conclusion.I think
its reasonable for folks on both sides to talk about the conclusions they
reached in their individual quests for truth. I try to respect both approaches.
What makes an apostate like Grant Palmers opiniions more valuble than a living
apostles. Are there commandments some dissenters don't want to keep? The best
source of truth is God himself. And since he is not the author of confusion or
a respector of persons he won't say one thing to one person on how to worship
and another to someone else. The best source of truth is the Lord through his
I have always assumed that "some truths aren't very useful" meant that
if a truth comes in opposition to your faith then it isn't a useful truth. For
example, it is not a useful truth how Joseph translated the BOM, just that it
was done by the power of God. It doesn't matter that he put his face in a hat
and used a seer stone he found at the bottom of a well, and that the golden
plates often times weren't even used. I would respectfuly disagree, all faith
based truth claims are important when evaluating the whole.
So many people in this world are trying to tell me how wrong my religion is.
They tell me that the Book of Mormon isn't true because there isn't
archaeological evidence. First of all, if you go to places like Guatemala and
other places in southern mexico, the archaeologists know that there are still
hundreds if not thousands of sites that they haven't even dug up yet. Second of
all, people rely too much on their own understanding and not the Lord's. They
say, "if I can't see it, it's not true". Have you seen Jesus Christ?
Have you seen the Holy Ghost? If you haven't seen them, how do you know they are
there? People will say, "the bible told me so." Not everyone believes
in the bible. So you are basing your belief on a book that over half the world
doesn't believe. I can tell you that many times in our lives, feeling is much
more important than seeing. If we only look with our eyes and search with our
eyes, we will be limited to what we can only see and find here on earth. I
search with my heart and I have found truth.
Full-on double rainbow,Thank you for bringing that up. It's
important to know how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. Oh no! He
stuck his face in a hat with a seer stone inside? Now my church isn't true! You
really think that because Joseph Smith stuck his face in a hat that is in
opposition to my faith? Really? You obviously don't know us very well. Anyone
who knows anything about the history of the church knows that he did that yet
most of them seem to stick around. How is him sticking his face in a hat going
to rock me to the core and make me question my faith? And you're wrong, there
are many truths that aren't useful. The sky is blue, the ocean is salty, there
are 7 continents, etc. How do those help me with my salvation? How about
important ones like Jesus Christ suffered for our sins and died for us, Jesus
Christ gave us a perfect example of how to live, we need to love one another,
etc. I think there are some truths that "aren't very useful" in
relation to others.
bluecoug89 - that is great that you believe the Book of Mormon is true. But
unfortunately that doesn't MAKE it true. The Book of Mormon has good teachings,
but because some people believe it doesn't actually make it true. People of
other religions swear they have the truth, they KNOW it is true, and still, it
doesn't make it so.
Look, I don't want to start an argument, I just wanted to let you all know what
I believe. I respect everyone's opinions and if I came across differently, I
apologize. You are right Brahmabull, just because I believe it's true doesn't
make it true. What makes it true is its origins but I can't force that on
anyone. People have to come to their own educated conclusions about the book.
That's done by reading it and asking in prayer if it's true or not. If we
believe in the same God and we believe in prayer, don't we believe that he'll
answer us and guide us to what is correct? He wants us all to come unto him and
have joy. Why would he lead us astray? I want to make an invitation to everyone.
Read the Book of Mormon. Don't do it with a bias but approach it with the
mentality to know if it's true or not. Then ask Heavenly Father, in sincere
prayer, if it's true. He will answer you and he won't lie to you. Come to know
for YOURSELF if it's true.
I wonder about any religion that believes they need to have something special ..
something above and beyond what any other church has ... in order to prove its
truthfulness. Somehow I don't think that God works that way. Why would He
create literally billions of people without affording all of them the
opportunity during their mortal lifetime to know the right way back to him. If
there is such a map, He would give it to everyone. Just seems like a ridiculous
notion to me.
bluecoug89 - Thank you for the response, clearly you do believe in the church
and that is great. However I disagree with you on something. It is not that god
is leading people astray. Obviously many many people have read the book of
mormon and didn't get a confirmation that it was true. If that is the case, why
are they getting a different answer than you got? You may say they weren't
sincere, or humble, or many other things. We don't know their heart. May I
propose that we get the answer that we desire, those who believe with their mind
that it is true get a "spiritual confirmation" that it is true and
those who don't believe it don't get that witness. That is why the spirit is so
unreliable. I have asked during prayer many times and it simply isn't there.
Does that mean something is wrong with me, or just that it isn't true. Because I
feel just as strongly that it ISN'T true as you do that it IS true. So truth is
subjective, one persons truth isn't anothers. Why would god only allow 1/10 of 1
percent to have the truth??
@ ClarkKent: You use a number of rhetorical devices that I think deserve
comment. First, you ask, "Why would [God] create literally billions of
people without affording all of them the opportunity during their mortal
lifetime to know the right way back to him[?]"You treat this as
a rhetorical question, but in order to be such, it must have an obvious answer,
and there is no obvious answer. The answers my faith provide satisfy me.You continue, "If there is such a map..." You apparently mean
to cast doubt on the existence of the "map," since you are not
providing more premises for a syllogism."He would give it to
everyone." Your presumption here is vague. It cannot be the conclusion of
a simple syllogism because you only have one premise; you provide no evidence
that God behaves according to your expectations or that He hasn't made
"it" available to everyone."Just seems like a
ridiculous notion to me." Granted.@ Brahmabull: You, too, ask
a number of rhetorical questions for which is there is no simple, universal
answer, or, for which you seem to be begging for a certain inference. For
example, "no answer" does not mean "not true."
There are indeed some things in Mormon doctrine that dont make sense. Ive heard
my own leaders admit this many times. However, none of that matters, if an
omniscient, omnipotent and loving being confirms that they are true. The entire
matter rests on this.Personally, however, I don't think that one can
identify the source of such feelings with confidence. They could indeed come
from God, that is certainly a possibility, but they could just as easily come
from within myself (as do many other feelings). I dont think you can know for
sure and, given the uncertainty, I see no problem with evaluating the doctrine
on its own merits. That being said, it is interesting that this idea fits very
well with church doctrine: this life is a test of faith, and a sure knowledge of
God would defeat that purpose.
@Jeff, and the answers my faith provide me also provide the answers.
Jeff: " For example, "no answer" does not mean "not
true.""It also does not mean "true," yet you
would expect anyone asking to remain in a state of "expecting truth"
rather than a neutral state. Using the model set in Alma 32, after
one plants, nurtures, and feeds the seed, it is then required to a wait within
the season for the seed to germinate and grow to determine if it is good. If one
were to plant a seed, water and fertilize, then wait, say, 20 years and nothing
sprouted, it could be assumed that the test had failed and the seed was not
good. In fact, a month would be more than sufficient. If the tester were to wait
longer, watering and fertilizing, it would be difficult to know, when something
sprouted, whether it was the seed, a volunteer, or a weed.There must
be a limit, and a time when one says, "I've waited long enough. If God
wants me to know this is true, he hasn't said. I'll look deeper and try other
seeds to see if they produce results."
Mick in Murray- your version of "truth" makes a mockery of what the
Bible claims is Truth re: Where and How Jesus Christ paid for man's sins. God's
Word cannot be twisted and reclaimed without His truth being subjective and
compromised. Elder Packer made that clear with his unequivocal repudiation of
pornography. But his agreeing with God on that one subject alone does not make
all of his beliefs on what constitutes truth all-inclusive any more than Muslim
and Jewish anti-porneo teachings would render the rest of their beliefs
consensual with the New Testament, would it?According to the Bible,
false teachers can espouse some truth mixed with their own apostate teachings.
God outlines explicilty how to handle them.Your different version
about the Garden of Gethsemane nullifies what Christ's eyewitnesses wrote about
our Savior and died for ultimately. Satan challenged God's words in the Garden
of Eden and deceived Eve. He misquoted the Word to Jesus following his 40-day
fast. Every time Satan is mentioned in God's Word, He is portrayed as a
deceiver and distorter of truth. Christ repeatedly told the crowds, "You
have heard it said, but it is written...". Truth will reign.
Independent Liberal The grace is intrinsic in the fact that the mediator
owes nothing to the debtor. He does what he does out of love, not obligation.
As you say, in return he only asks that we accept and follow Him.VankaThere is no bureaucracy of mediators. Rather, they are judges (as
in the time of Christ and immediately afterward) to look over his kingdom and
administer the ordinances with authority. There is only one mediator.Do you owe a spiritual debt? I leave that to you and the Lord. Based on what
you do know, have you never failed, never done wrong, never hurt anyone, never
been anything less than perfect? I wish I could say anything remotely close.ThinkmanI do feel stronger. You can rest at ease. I searched the
claims and had absolutely no desire for them to be true (quite the opposite).
But here I am.MizzicaI can only say that in my own experience
and those whom I have taught, honest inquiry elicits an answer. I know that may
not be your situation. It is simply what I have observed. Sorry if it has not
worked out for you that way.
Thank you, fellow Backo neighbor (OTCross). Well said: There cannot be many
"truths" that contradict each other essentially. The Bible never
states that Christ's transaction for our sins was partially made in the Garden.
It doesn't state the LDS version either, that the "atonement" was
accomplished in the Garden and finalized on the Cross. That is another 'truth',
another gospel, no where found in the Holy Bible or the JST.I would
ask Elder Packer how many truths there are, and which ones are of lesser
importance. I ask friends to choose which side of the Biblical divide they are
on. It's either what it claims it is as God's Truth, or it has been
compromised. I am also on the side of Only the Cross for Christ's transaction
as the most important truth. Adding works, ordinances, new visions and Biblical
revisions nullifies your trust in the Bible as God's Word. "In
the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was
God." You don't have to believe or understand it. But you cannot redefine
it 1,910 years later and claim your revision as the truth. Only One Way, Truth
and Life exists.
Vanka:I have been pondering your deep questions since I read them
this morning. I don't presume to have the answers to your questions, especially
in 200 words or less (or even more), but in a spirit of friendship, I would like
to share a couple of things I have been pondering today regarding your
questions.First off, I have been thinking about the words to one of
our sacrament hymns that resonates deeply with me: "I stand all amazed at
the love Jesus offers me. Confused at the grace that so fully He proffers me.
I tremble to know that for me He was crucified, that for me, a sinner, He
suffered, He bled, and died. Oh, it is wonderful that He should care for me
enough to die for me. Oh it is wonderful, wonderful to me." That's from
the heart.The other thought that I have had was to suggest you
read--perhaps you have done so already--James Talmage's book "Jesus the
Christ." In particular, chapter three discusses need of a savior.I respect you for the hard questions you ask because it shows that you think
deeply about these things.All my best,Montana Mormon
Montana Mormon,I appreciate your kind response. Hymns and Talmage
fail to answer the issue.That Jesus "died for me" may
pluck the heart strings (and be misinterpreted as "the Spirit"), but
it is meaningless unless his death somehow dealt with the alleged
"sins" of individual humans.But Mormon doctrine is all
over the map on this:LDS doctrines teach against the idea of
"original sin" (2nd AoF), as well as teaching that children cannot sin
(nor be tempted) until they reach the age of accountability (age 8;Â see
Moro. 8:1021; D&C 29:4647 and D&C 68:2527). Yet you baptize them at age
8 "for the remission of sins".You teach that humans are
not punished for Adam's transgression, but insist that mankind is in a
"lost and fallen state" (Alma 12:22). Being "lost and
fallen" is not punishment?YetÂ the Lord supposedly said:
"Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to
grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they
may know to prize the good." (Moses 6:55)Â How is this different than
If it is a describable truth then it can be proven, if it can not be proven then
it is not a truth. All the people who go around claiming they know things that
can not be know, or proven, are just fooling themselves or taking advantage of
other's innocence. Too many people live off of making others think they know
what others can't know or prove
Vanka,You said, "But Mormon doctrine is all over the map on
this"I think this is where your problems finding reasonable
answers may be originating. You won't find them in books, even in the Book of
Mormon, in anything. Revelation comes through inspiration. Reading a specific
line in the Book of Mormon may mean nothing to me one day, then the next day it
means everything. Why? Not because of the book. The book didn't change. Because
I was ready for it, to learn it, and receptive.We pray for our
answers. I know you've said you have with no results before- but I'm not trying
to say 'you need to pray' or 'you're not praying, so obviously you're wrong.'
Because I really don't know what you do in your life.All I do know,
is that you won't find your answers just by looking for official statements,
books, and so on. I've only ever been successful through prayer, not study
alone.My main point here is that citing books as conflicting is
illogical where most members who've prayed see no conflict in different
statements. Not because of blindness to reason, but understanding more clearly,
only through prayer.
VoR,Thank you for your response.I must confess, I am a
bit unclear as to your point.You seem to be saying perhaps I am not
praying in the proper way. I have prayed in every way possible for over 20
years. No answer. You wrote: "You won't find [answers] in
books, even in the Book of Mormon, in anything.""Because I
was ready for it, to learn it, and receptive." So you are
saying I am just "not ready"? After 20 years of searching? Please
explain what TRUE "ready" means?"but I'm not trying
to say 'you need to pray' or 'you're not praying, so obviously you're
wrong.'"Actually, that sounds exactly like what you are
saying."My main point here is that citing books as conflicting
is illogical where most members who've prayed see no conflict in different
statements. Not because of blindness to reason, but understanding more clearly,
only through prayer."Then please, as one who presumably
understands "more clearly", explain the conflicting issues I raised.
For instance, why criticize Catholics for performing infant baptisms, but then
baptize sinless 8 year olds "for the remission of sins"?Your comment is confusing.
Unfortunately, it appears the following comment does not meet the terms
necessary to get by the moderators. I'll try again by making it clear that I
certainly mean no disrespect to any one person or organization..it's a general
standard that should apply to everyone, including myself.Truthful
messages, however most worth knowing, cannot compensate for the concealment of
untruths. Those who fail to acknowledge untruths cannot presume to claim a
monopoly on absolute truth...those truths "most worth knowing."
Vanka, we'll try this again.My point is not- "well, obviously
you got something wrong with prayer" or anything even similar.I
agree, I worded it horribly. Here is another attempt-Many doctrines
I have found I have not understood from my own capacity to reason, but only
through God's revealing it. God not only authorized my knowing it, as I am ready
to understand it. But God also is a better teacher than I can reason for myself.
This doesn't necessarily mean you aren't ready, good enough, or anything like
it. From my perspective (believing, I mean) I'd say "who knows why you
haven't got an answer yet, maybe you have and deny it, maybe you just
haven't". I don't really know. So please understand, I am making no
judgement about you or even your experiences.I am only saying- just
keep asking God with an open heart. Why? Not to push you to my belief, or even
to claim 'you just aren't praying right'. But this:IF some things
are only understood through revelation, not through our own capacity to
reason... THEN prayer, despite previously being unanswered, would still be the
doctrinally correct approach.That clarify?