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Published: Saturday, Nov. 5 2011 11:17 p.m. MDT

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Riverton Cougar
Riverton, Utah

mattrick78, don't take Pagan's logical fallacies away from him; it's all he has! Without them, he won't be able to "prove" his "facts". Correlation means causation after all, right?

Pagan
Salt Lake City, UT

'Pagan: Here are some supporting facts:
I knew a guy...' - mattrick78 | 10:36 a.m. Nov. 7, 2011

This....is a fact?

How can I verify anything you have said?

Moving on...

Many will claim many of my facts are 'propoganda'. When scientific sources come out AGAINST attempts to change orientation.

Such as...

'You are normal
Homosexuality is NOT a mental disorder. All of the major medical organizations, including The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics agree that homosexuality is not an illness or disorder...'

Published online: 11/2008
Source: Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Teens: Information for Teens and Parents

- America Acadamy of Pediactrics

The American Psychiatric Association
The American Psychological Association
The America Acadamy of Pediactrics &...

11/10/09 - The American Medical Association on Tuesday voted to oppose the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy, and declared that gay marriage bans contribute to health disparities.

"A law which makes people lie to their physicians is a bad law," said Dr. David Fassler, a University of Vermont psychiatry professor who attended the meeting.'

The American Medical Association.

Isn't asking someone to be celibate...

asking them to LIE about their orientaion?

USAlover
Salt Lake City, UT

He is coming. He is the judge. I think he'll have some eye-opening information for people on both sides of this issue. So much is still unclear. In the meantime, can we afford each other respect and kindness...ON BOTH SIDES?!? Return hate and ignorance, if it comes your way, with class and dignity and kindness. Be above it.

Let's work and live and be neighbors and hire each other and take care of each other without forfeiting the standard that has been set in the minds of each.

WE CAN DO THIS!

ClarkHippo
Tooele, UT

@murray19

You said - "You can not be active LDS and be gay. Just the same way you can't be active LDS and be an alcoholic."

Here's where I disagree with this comment. An alcoholic is one who continually drinks, even if they are hiding it from everyone else. Just because someone is gay does not mean they are sexual promiscuous. If you were compare a gay person to someone who say, has a higher susceptibility to alcohol, I would agree with that.

The important thing those of us who are LDS need to remember is, just because someone is gay or lesbian does not mean they are wildly sexual or wildly promiscuous. Of course there are some that are, but it likely isn't any different than heterosexuals who are wildly sexual and promiscuous.

Pagan
Salt Lake City, UT

Now, rather than attack a person PERSONALLY...

I am going to support my point that those who support you 'can' change your orientation...

have no evidence to base such rational on.

My previously mentioned, Exodus International:

One of the founding members, Michael Bussee left the orginazation to be with his gay lover, Gary Cooper... in 1979.

NARTH. The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuals:

*'A Heaven-Sent Rent Boy' - By FRANK RICH - NYTimes - 05/15/10

'...the married, 61-year-old Rekers was caught by Miami New Times last month in the company of a 20-year-old male escort at Miami International Airport.'

George Rekers, a founding boardmember of NARTH, has since resigned from that group.

NOM. The National Orginazation for Marriage.

*'NOM Strategist, Louis J. Marinelli, Declares Support For Same-Sex
Marriage' - Huffington Post 04/09/11

'Last summer, I organized the Summer for Marriage Tour for NOM. For 30 days, I traveled across the nation pushing an un-American agenda that harms gays, lesbians, and their families. I deeply regret...'

*'National Organization For Marriage NOM Uses Photoshop To Create Doctored Photos...' - 10/26/11 - Huffington Post

How much credibility is here?

YouthforEagar
MONROE, UT

I was going to say something, but mightymite said it all for me.

RAB
Bountiful, UT

I likewise feel for those who struggle with this issue and hope they will find happiness in their lives.

I think that there is a lot of misconception going around as to what it means to choose to be gay. It is perfectly true that few people ever consciously consider their options and choose to be gay. But most people do not choose to be fat either, or violent, or alcoholics, or child abusers, or porn addicts, or drug addicts, or homeless. They simply start on a road without fully realizing that it will end up somewhere where they did not want to be.

When a person discovers something, right or wrong, that brings them pleasure, they are inclined to continue on that road. To deny this is laughable. No doubt, there are genetic dispositions for being gay. But that does not mean there are not self-created dispositions as well. I know people who experimented with it and who turned out not to be gay.

Brent78
Holladay, UT

Some people may have difficulty reconciling the gospel with the fact that some people have same sex attraction. In fact, the main purpose of the gospel is to help each one of us navigate through exactly these sorts of issues. For some people, the challenge may be overcoming certain sexual impulses or additions. For others, it may be avoiding judgment of others. When we fail to resist these or other vices that the Church warns against, it does not necessarily make us bad people--it just prevents us from reaching our full potential. We in the Church should be very careful not to ostracise others or especially to speculate and gossip about their private lives simply because they come off as effeminate, just as those with same sex attraction should be careful how they define "being gay" (something you acknowledge as a temptation vs. something you embrace and allow to dictate your life choices). Whether born with it or not, some people came to this life to experience same sex attraction and to be tested on what choices they would make in spite of this. This is their test, and no one else's.

mattrick78
Cedar City, UT

Pagan:
"Man who shot himself during Cedar City standoff dies."
-Salt Lake Tribune (First published Feb 16 2011 07:21AM)

Verified. Now I will move on...

ClarkHippo
Tooele, UT

I gained greater sympathy for those with same-sex attraction (side note, I do not mean to use that description in a derogatory way) when someone I am very close to (I won't say this is a family member or friend, only it's a he) confided something to me I found quite surprising.

This person is happily married in the temple, has been active for many years and has served in many church callings. One day he came to me very privately to say that for about a year or so, he had been falling in love with a young woman in his ward.

He told me while he had never touched this girl, he would think about her every day and that these feelings truly frightened him, especially since giving in to his feelings would mean destroying his marriage and church membership, as well as land him behind bars. A short time later, this girl and her family moved away, without knowing of his feelings. He felt both relief and sadness.

Those with same-sex attraction can't simply snap their fingers and make it better, which is why they need greater love and understanding from us all.

Esquire
Springville, UT

A gay Mormon can 1. be celibate, 2. enter into a fraudulent hetero marriage, 3. enter in to a gay relationship, or 4. take care of things alone (if you know what I mean). All of these choices are condemned. In light of the accepted belief that sexuality is important to all humans and is recognized as God-given even by conservative religions, where does that put one? In a box to live out a miserable existence. Is that what life is about? For those who want to moralize and preach, if you have your solution, you are in no position to talk. Think it through more carefully. I wish there were easy solutions. The Church has an obligation to deal with this issue. Man is that he might have joy, unless nature hands him something that we don't like?

patriot
Cedar Hills, UT

People need to read Elder Hollands conference talk a few years back on homosexuality. Elder Holland does NOT condemn anyone for struggling with same gender attraction and goes on to say that any person with such feelings can enjoy the full blessings of the gospel. However a person cannot act out those feelings in a sexual way otherwise they violate the law of chastity. In other words, it is not the conflicted feelings that are sinful - it is acting on those feelings. Homosexuality is a mental disorder for most and for others it is a personal choice.For those that experience same gender attraction no fault of their own there is therapy and help available - both physical and spiritual.

Aspen1713
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

The problem with arguing that asking gay LDS people to be celibate their entire lives is the same thing asked of straight LDS people is that it (deliberately?) overlooks an elephant in the room.

No straight single LDS person is celibate for celibacy's sake. They are celibate because they haven't found the right person. If they did find the right person, they could get married and would be off the celibacy hook and everyone would be happy for them.

Whereas if a gay single LDS person were to find "the one," they would be told to just stay single.

It is not remotely the same.

I'm 27, female, straight, and LDS. I worry constantly about, "What if I never find the right guy?" But I never have to worry about finding him and then being told, "Now don't pursue anything with him."

ClarkHippo
Tooele, UT

My point in talking about this person I am close to is, it is easy for us heterosexuals to tell gays and lesbians, "Just don't think about your same sex attraction."

But the fact is, those feelings are deep and can very easily cause struggles, especially if you are trying to stay active in the LDS Church or similar Christian faiths.

Until science can prove with a shadow of a doubt why person A is gay or lesbian while person B is straight, we must show greater compassion to those with same-sex attraction. (again I do not intend this description in a negative way)

Pac_Man
Pittsburgh, PA

The APA et al. all issue their findings through extensive research. Sometimes they are correct, sometimes they are wrong, sometimes their research is in flux.

At one point some of these organizations thought that homosexuality was a mental disorder. Unfortunately this excluded many gay people and made them feel as if they had serious mental problems.

Now they say it is no longer a mental disorder, and that is great! But that does not mean that individuals who struggle with unwanted sexual urges cannot decide not to live a gay lifestyle, and possibly even serve in the Church.

I find it hypocritical that people in these organizations and those like yourself want to dismiss these individuals and say that "change is not possible" when it really is none of their business. Especially when these organizations base their research on sampling and issue opinions based on a majority of cases at the "expense" of excluding exceptions.

While those in "conservative communities" should be accepting of gay people, it is equally incumbent upon those in the gay community to be just as accepting of those who want to resist unwanted sexual urges and live a happy, healthy, and productive lifestyle.

Pac_Man
Pittsburgh, PA

"A gay Mormon can 1. be celibate, 2. enter into a fraudulent hetero marriage, 3. enter in to a gay relationship, or 4. take care of things alone (if you know what I mean)."

Unfortunately you forgot to mention option number 5. When married men in the Church like myself has been faithful to both his wife and Church even when serving in the Bishopric who at times struggle with same sex urges. My wife knew about this before and she knows it now. This is just an unwanted part of me that I choose not to let define the whole of me.

MarineMan
Lehi, UT

What does the Q stand for in LGBTQ?

friedeggonAZstreets
Glendale, AZ

Wow. I can't believe we are even having this discussion. Yes, all people who have SSA are children of our Heavenly Father, but to say they can hold hands, be in relationships, etc.. goes against the doctrines of God. The Bible speaks of it, as well as the Book of Mormon and not to mention The Family Proclamation. The words of the Lord are clear on this issue. Should we treat them differently? No, we should not.

With that said, it would be wise for us to remember what President Young warned us about..."when a man begins to find fault [with the Church leaders and teachings]you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy." pg78 Teachings of the President of the Church Brigham Young.

Kami
Bountiful, Utah

My own personal take about gays, is that I think it quite possible that some people are created with an attraction to the same gender. I also think it quite possible that there are people with this attraction who are placed on this earth as a TRIAL for heterosexuals, particularly for those who seem to think it is OK to judge others for their sexual orientation. I think the judgers, not the gays, are going to be in for a huge surprise on their judgment day. Huge surprise ...

Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

I find interesting when heterosexual people (LDS and others) find reasonable and comforting to advice gay people, that to have the inclination is O.K. as long as you don't act on it.

Let's make a rethorical reversal:

What about if we ask all heterosexuals not to act but repress their sexual feelings. And they should try to be gays. They could follow the example of all gay people in society. If a heterosexual complain we should advice him/her "Don't let your sexuality define you".

What do you think of my idea? stupid, ridiculous, absolutely disgusting?

Well, that is exactly what many heterosexuals, no doubt, with good intentions are asking from the gay community.

@ Pac_Man: If you have found happiness. Please receive my sincerest congratulations.

Homosexuality exist. Why? Nobody knows.

What we know however, is that all human beings should have the right to work to achieve their happiness and full potential.

Shouldn't that be enough to let everybody be and enjoy the same privileges that you enjoy?

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