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Comments about ‘At BYU, Pres. Thomas Monson relates how Harvard's Clayton Christensen got Book of Mormon testimony’

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Published: Wednesday, Nov. 2 2011 9:42 a.m. MDT

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welcomethemall
Nampa, ID

Vanka and I agree on almost nothing (so far). But he/she's right. BYUgirl, in her enthusiasm for her beliefs, went over the top. I was insulted, and I believe the Book of Mormon is scripture.

Vanka - while I appreciate your feelings regarding this statement, perhaps you and I are the last people to cry "foul" at other's overbearing comments.

How many times have you been purposefully insulting of those whose posts were not as well-reasoned or perhaps as eloquent as yours? You have a tendency to be very belittling of the members of the Mormon Church.

I have been guilty of the same myself on these boards... particularly on the subject of public school teachers. (For whom I admittedly have little patience in general - my failing, not theirs.)

As rough as her statement was - maybe we can give BYUgirl a pass on this one? My baseball coach always said as he wrote the "E" in the scorebook, it was an "E for Effort."

Vanka
Provo, UT

welcomethemall wrote:

"Vanka and I agree on almost nothing (so far). But he/she's right. BYUgirl, in her enthusiasm for her beliefs, went over the top. I was insulted, and I believe the Book of Mormon is scripture...As rough as her statement was - maybe we can give BYUgirl a pass on this one?"

My issue is not with any particular LDS person. BYUGirl's statement is symptomatic of a general sentiment among almost all Mormons, and it is grounded in the ad hominem attack built into Moroni's Promise against anyone who does not get "the right answer".

As shown by many comments attacking my sincerity, intent, effort, worthiness, purity, etc. - the presumptive and inferred condemnatory judgment is that if I did not get the same answer that Clayton Christensen (and many Mormons) claim to have got, then I am MORALLY DEFICIENT.

That is an abusive, judgmental, intolerant, fallacious, and inhumane doctrine.

I give LDS people "a pass" almost every week when I attend Church with my wife. They wander around in the fog of their own spiritual superiority uttering ego-centric, ethno-entric, religio-centric statements that are so offensive and intolerant, but they don't even realize it.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

Vanka and Brahmabull: Where in my statement did it state I judge you of this. I posed questions to Vanka that he basically refused to answer. I posed a statement to you. Both of yours basically tried to play the victim in all this.

Vanka judgement is left to the Savior and to the Lord. You mention that you will continue to do your mission. WHAT IS YOUR MISSION?

Brahmabull you put words in the mouth of those who believe but not as you do. You say you ask questions and when some have given you the answers you refuse them because they aren't your belief nor do you hold to them. You say you seek after the truth regardless where it comes from. As many here will testify that answers from our critics are generally half lies and half truths. You've shown your disdain for others and when you say someone said that was an opinion you authomatically take it further than that. I don't believe when a Prophet speaks from a podium in his true calling it can ever be called opinion. However, he may not have the full light of the revelation either.

will7370
LOGAN, UT

One wonders how Steve Young's life would be different today if he had chosen to not play football on Sunday.

Arm of Orion
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Vanka if I may point something out there is no ad hominem attack to be found in Moroni's promise. After having read through it I found nothing concerning time line or even answer as to when it shall be given unto you. Neither does he state that those who do not have a testimony are lesser creatures. So that point I will take issue with.

However, I do sympathize with you the wording from the members I have seen directed at you have been. It has been atrocious and laden with hypocrisy and pride. I would also like to remind members that the greatest of sins to make is pride for that leads to the destruction warned of in scripture. Furthermore members I find it impossible to state why a person does not have a testimony of anything. We cannot see all things so do not speculate. Focus on who you aas a person are and what you are trying to accomplish.

Sherrona A simple question I hope you will answer. In the time of Christ's ministry on earth could one believe in Christ without believing John the Baptist to be a prophet as well?

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@Brahmabull
"I know that train of thought doesn't make sense to you or I, but some LDS like to take shots or stabs at people who don't believe."

Actually the train of thought makes a lot of sense to me. If you believe something is a guaranteed 100% promise and then it doesn't work out for someone many would be left to wonder why it didn't work out when they believe it's supposed to. I understand why someone can feel that "something was wrong when you tried it if it didn't work"... it's a fairly logical reaction to the situation... it's just a comment that doesn't do much good that's all.

@the truth
For the record I do have faith in Christ. I consider myself a christian, just a non-denomintional one. I know that the comments are not intended to be judgmental, I'm just saying that sort of comment tends to come across that way.

@stay the course
"Please explain why it is so insulting?"

It's a statement that insinuates it's the investigator's fault they didn't get a positive response to asking God about the Book of Mormon's veracity.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@stay the course
"Why did you leave the church then? "

I don't believe in the Book of Mormon, I don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and I felt it would be dishonest of me to be linked to a covenant that I don't believe in. It's nothing personal, I consider the church Christian because it obviously is, and it brings a lot of good to people's lives, I just don't believe in some of its biggest doctrines.

BYU Girl
West Valley City, UT

I want to apologize to those whom I have offended. I got carried away and wasn't thinking of those who haven't received an answer to their prayers regarding the Book of Mormon. I was raised in the Church and went to church every Sunday with Mom and Dad. When I got much older I decided to take on the challenge and read the Book of Mormon (like a lot of you have) and I didn't get an immediate "Yes, it is true" confirmation either. It took some time, but one day in Church I was in Relief Society learning about the teachings of President Ezra Taft Benson and the Spirit bore a POWERFUL witness to me that the Book of Mormon was true. I know everyone can receive answers to their prayers, but it is within the Lord's time frame. I'm sorry and hope that one day you will all have that powerful witness of its truth.

LetsDebate
PLEASANT GROVE, UT

@Vanka - have you ever known someone who's passionately enthusiastic about scrapbooking, Pomeranians, bowling, or being Democrat? Perhaps some of them don't understand your possible apathy for their favorite obsessions, and consider themselves better than you because you "don't get" something that's so wonderful to them.

How would you feel if someone spent his life mocking and condemning others for such passions? Wouldn't you find it terribly pointless for someone to dedicate himself to being a killjoy?

It appears to many that you are dedicated to being a killjoy to Mormons. If someone believes you're unworthy, insincere, or lacking faith, you know your heart better than them, and whether such judgments are true or not. Why does it matter what some DN readers in Utah think? Regardless of the level of sincere effort you've expended, your commitment to mocking people in our church seems to portray an unbecoming insecurity.

Do you think Paul was any less sincere when he persecuted the early Saints? It's hard to "kick against the pricks," and you can interpret that however you like. Why can't you just enjoy good living with your wife, and wait to see how it all pans out?

Stay the Course
Salt Lake City, utah

after reading the comments there is one person out there that cant see the forest because of the trees

The Vanka
Provo, UT

LetsDebate,

Got it. I will add that one to the list. Now I am not only
- insincere
- unworthy
- too proud
- too intellectual
- not intellectual enough
- lacking in "real intent"
- lacking in "faith" (which is puzzling... of course one cannot have "faith" in something he does not know exists)

...but now I am also "insecure".

Very helpful, thank you for your judgment of me.

Matt. 7:1-3

Stay the Course
Salt Lake City, utah

atl134
Then why call it insulting like you did? makes no sense

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@stay the course
I'm not sure how I could word it better than I did and I thought it was pretty self-explantory. I said it was insulting because the statement suggests it's the investigators fault they didn't get a confirmation that the book of mormon is true. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who got no spiritual confirmation of the truth of the Book of Mormon (like say, myself) or someone who felt they got a confirmation that it wasn't true. If someone were to tell you that you must not have been sincere in your prayers about the issue, or you weren't paying attention, or you're too stubborn to accept the truth... can you see how that would be insulting?

Smidget
Rexburg, ID

In the give and take of the comments posted on this article, perhaps a more subtle but still powerful message we can all learn from Brother Christensen is that he is unashamed of his beliefs and unafraid to share his testimony even at Harvard, in the New York Times, on his personal home page -- all of this in spite enduring very challenging times.

ThinksIThink
SEATTLE, WA

Brahambull,

I like the way you roll! Keep it up.

MapleDon
Springville, UT

This obsession with Clayton Christensen is becoming really weird.

Outside of Hollywood, I doubt there's any group that worships people more than Mormons do.

However, the fact is Clayton Christensen with all his skills and abilities is not able to save me from my sins, he doesn't make my burdens light, he isn't able to resurrect me, he doesn't comfort me when I'm sorrowing, he didn't create me and he hasn't create worlds without number. In other words, he's not God.

Can't we get back to focusing on Christ? Let's follow 2 Nephi 25:26, which says "we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins."

Right now, it seems we're talking of Clay Christensen, we rejoice in Clay Christensen, we preach of Clay Christensen, etc. Again, weird.

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