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At BYU, Pres. Thomas Monson relates how Harvard's Clayton Christensen got Book of Mormon testimony

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  • MapleDon Springville, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 10:34 a.m.

    This obsession with Clayton Christensen is becoming really weird.

    Outside of Hollywood, I doubt there's any group that worships people more than Mormons do.

    However, the fact is Clayton Christensen with all his skills and abilities is not able to save me from my sins, he doesn't make my burdens light, he isn't able to resurrect me, he doesn't comfort me when I'm sorrowing, he didn't create me and he hasn't create worlds without number. In other words, he's not God.

    Can't we get back to focusing on Christ? Let's follow 2 Nephi 25:26, which says "we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins."

    Right now, it seems we're talking of Clay Christensen, we rejoice in Clay Christensen, we preach of Clay Christensen, etc. Again, weird.

  • ThinksIThink SEATTLE, WA
    Nov. 8, 2011 2:36 a.m.

    Brahambull,

    I like the way you roll! Keep it up.

  • Smidget Rexburg, ID
    Nov. 6, 2011 8:27 a.m.

    In the give and take of the comments posted on this article, perhaps a more subtle but still powerful message we can all learn from Brother Christensen is that he is unashamed of his beliefs and unafraid to share his testimony even at Harvard, in the New York Times, on his personal home page -- all of this in spite enduring very challenging times.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 4, 2011 9:51 p.m.

    @stay the course
    I'm not sure how I could word it better than I did and I thought it was pretty self-explantory. I said it was insulting because the statement suggests it's the investigators fault they didn't get a confirmation that the book of mormon is true. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who got no spiritual confirmation of the truth of the Book of Mormon (like say, myself) or someone who felt they got a confirmation that it wasn't true. If someone were to tell you that you must not have been sincere in your prayers about the issue, or you weren't paying attention, or you're too stubborn to accept the truth... can you see how that would be insulting?

  • Stay the Course Salt Lake City, utah
    Nov. 4, 2011 5:10 p.m.

    atl134
    Then why call it insulting like you did? makes no sense

  • The Vanka Provo, UT
    Nov. 4, 2011 4:00 p.m.

    LetsDebate,

    Got it. I will add that one to the list. Now I am not only
    - insincere
    - unworthy
    - too proud
    - too intellectual
    - not intellectual enough
    - lacking in "real intent"
    - lacking in "faith" (which is puzzling... of course one cannot have "faith" in something he does not know exists)

    ...but now I am also "insecure".

    Very helpful, thank you for your judgment of me.

    Matt. 7:1-3

  • Stay the Course Salt Lake City, utah
    Nov. 4, 2011 12:44 p.m.

    after reading the comments there is one person out there that cant see the forest because of the trees

  • LetsDebate PLEASANT GROVE, UT
    Nov. 4, 2011 12:19 p.m.

    @Vanka - have you ever known someone who's passionately enthusiastic about scrapbooking, Pomeranians, bowling, or being Democrat? Perhaps some of them don't understand your possible apathy for their favorite obsessions, and consider themselves better than you because you "don't get" something that's so wonderful to them.

    How would you feel if someone spent his life mocking and condemning others for such passions? Wouldn't you find it terribly pointless for someone to dedicate himself to being a killjoy?

    It appears to many that you are dedicated to being a killjoy to Mormons. If someone believes you're unworthy, insincere, or lacking faith, you know your heart better than them, and whether such judgments are true or not. Why does it matter what some DN readers in Utah think? Regardless of the level of sincere effort you've expended, your commitment to mocking people in our church seems to portray an unbecoming insecurity.

    Do you think Paul was any less sincere when he persecuted the early Saints? It's hard to "kick against the pricks," and you can interpret that however you like. Why can't you just enjoy good living with your wife, and wait to see how it all pans out?

  • BYU Girl West Valley City, UT
    Nov. 4, 2011 12:12 p.m.

    I want to apologize to those whom I have offended. I got carried away and wasn't thinking of those who haven't received an answer to their prayers regarding the Book of Mormon. I was raised in the Church and went to church every Sunday with Mom and Dad. When I got much older I decided to take on the challenge and read the Book of Mormon (like a lot of you have) and I didn't get an immediate "Yes, it is true" confirmation either. It took some time, but one day in Church I was in Relief Society learning about the teachings of President Ezra Taft Benson and the Spirit bore a POWERFUL witness to me that the Book of Mormon was true. I know everyone can receive answers to their prayers, but it is within the Lord's time frame. I'm sorry and hope that one day you will all have that powerful witness of its truth.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 3, 2011 11:15 p.m.

    @stay the course
    "Why did you leave the church then? "

    I don't believe in the Book of Mormon, I don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and I felt it would be dishonest of me to be linked to a covenant that I don't believe in. It's nothing personal, I consider the church Christian because it obviously is, and it brings a lot of good to people's lives, I just don't believe in some of its biggest doctrines.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 3, 2011 11:04 p.m.

    @Brahmabull
    "I know that train of thought doesn't make sense to you or I, but some LDS like to take shots or stabs at people who don't believe."

    Actually the train of thought makes a lot of sense to me. If you believe something is a guaranteed 100% promise and then it doesn't work out for someone many would be left to wonder why it didn't work out when they believe it's supposed to. I understand why someone can feel that "something was wrong when you tried it if it didn't work"... it's a fairly logical reaction to the situation... it's just a comment that doesn't do much good that's all.

    @the truth
    For the record I do have faith in Christ. I consider myself a christian, just a non-denomintional one. I know that the comments are not intended to be judgmental, I'm just saying that sort of comment tends to come across that way.

    @stay the course
    "Please explain why it is so insulting?"

    It's a statement that insinuates it's the investigator's fault they didn't get a positive response to asking God about the Book of Mormon's veracity.

  • Arm of Orion Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 3, 2011 6:41 p.m.

    Vanka if I may point something out there is no ad hominem attack to be found in Moroni's promise. After having read through it I found nothing concerning time line or even answer as to when it shall be given unto you. Neither does he state that those who do not have a testimony are lesser creatures. So that point I will take issue with.

    However, I do sympathize with you the wording from the members I have seen directed at you have been. It has been atrocious and laden with hypocrisy and pride. I would also like to remind members that the greatest of sins to make is pride for that leads to the destruction warned of in scripture. Furthermore members I find it impossible to state why a person does not have a testimony of anything. We cannot see all things so do not speculate. Focus on who you aas a person are and what you are trying to accomplish.

    Sherrona A simple question I hope you will answer. In the time of Christ's ministry on earth could one believe in Christ without believing John the Baptist to be a prophet as well?

  • will7370 LOGAN, UT
    Nov. 3, 2011 6:19 p.m.

    One wonders how Steve Young's life would be different today if he had chosen to not play football on Sunday.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Nov. 3, 2011 12:18 p.m.

    Vanka and Brahmabull: Where in my statement did it state I judge you of this. I posed questions to Vanka that he basically refused to answer. I posed a statement to you. Both of yours basically tried to play the victim in all this.

    Vanka judgement is left to the Savior and to the Lord. You mention that you will continue to do your mission. WHAT IS YOUR MISSION?

    Brahmabull you put words in the mouth of those who believe but not as you do. You say you ask questions and when some have given you the answers you refuse them because they aren't your belief nor do you hold to them. You say you seek after the truth regardless where it comes from. As many here will testify that answers from our critics are generally half lies and half truths. You've shown your disdain for others and when you say someone said that was an opinion you authomatically take it further than that. I don't believe when a Prophet speaks from a podium in his true calling it can ever be called opinion. However, he may not have the full light of the revelation either.

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Nov. 3, 2011 12:11 p.m.

    welcomethemall wrote:

    "Vanka and I agree on almost nothing (so far). But he/she's right. BYUgirl, in her enthusiasm for her beliefs, went over the top. I was insulted, and I believe the Book of Mormon is scripture...As rough as her statement was - maybe we can give BYUgirl a pass on this one?"

    My issue is not with any particular LDS person. BYUGirl's statement is symptomatic of a general sentiment among almost all Mormons, and it is grounded in the ad hominem attack built into Moroni's Promise against anyone who does not get "the right answer".

    As shown by many comments attacking my sincerity, intent, effort, worthiness, purity, etc. - the presumptive and inferred condemnatory judgment is that if I did not get the same answer that Clayton Christensen (and many Mormons) claim to have got, then I am MORALLY DEFICIENT.

    That is an abusive, judgmental, intolerant, fallacious, and inhumane doctrine.

    I give LDS people "a pass" almost every week when I attend Church with my wife. They wander around in the fog of their own spiritual superiority uttering ego-centric, ethno-entric, religio-centric statements that are so offensive and intolerant, but they don't even realize it.

  • welcomethemall Nampa, ID
    Nov. 3, 2011 10:57 a.m.

    Vanka and I agree on almost nothing (so far). But he/she's right. BYUgirl, in her enthusiasm for her beliefs, went over the top. I was insulted, and I believe the Book of Mormon is scripture.

    Vanka - while I appreciate your feelings regarding this statement, perhaps you and I are the last people to cry "foul" at other's overbearing comments.

    How many times have you been purposefully insulting of those whose posts were not as well-reasoned or perhaps as eloquent as yours? You have a tendency to be very belittling of the members of the Mormon Church.

    I have been guilty of the same myself on these boards... particularly on the subject of public school teachers. (For whom I admittedly have little patience in general - my failing, not theirs.)

    As rough as her statement was - maybe we can give BYUgirl a pass on this one? My baseball coach always said as he wrote the "E" in the scorebook, it was an "E for Effort."

  • Rocket Science Brigham City, UT
    Nov. 3, 2011 10:24 a.m.

    I wish I could remember the line from The Count of Monte Cristo When in prison and discussing things with the old Priest he says I dont believe in God the old Priest very kindly and in a completely non judgmental way responds something like thats OK, He believes in you

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Nov. 3, 2011 9:06 a.m.

    Bill in Nebraksa, The problem is who will you believe yourself or our Heavenly Father.
    Faith is only as good as the object of that faith(not an exalted man),Since our eternal destiny is dependent on what we put our trust in now, shouldnt there be something more trustworthy than feelings:
    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?( Jer 17:3)
    The Bible,In 1 Thess 21, test them all; hold on to what is good. do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world(1John 4:1).
    I prayed and I searched the scriptures like the Bereans (Acts 17:11) and the Bible told me Mormonism was false.

    Let Gods curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel[Mornoni] from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. (Gal 1:8 Greek N.T.)

  • Central Texan Buda, TX
    Nov. 3, 2011 8:15 a.m.

    @ Vanka

    If God is just, then inasmuch as you are sincere you have nothing to worry about.

  • Paul in MD Montgomery Village, MD
    Nov. 3, 2011 7:05 a.m.

    Vanka and others here make very valid points.

    I don't know why some people get the answers they are looking for and others don't. I do know it isn't my place to judge them because of their beliefs. Isn't that exactly what we members of the LDS church want from them? It is highly hypocritical and un-Christian to condemn anyone for not believing what we believe.

    Whether we each do our best to find and follow the truth is no one's business but ours and God's.

    I think our general authorities have realized another thing that a few have pointed out here today - it is really obnoxious and counter-productive to take the attitude "we've got it all so your church is all wrong!" Every religion's body of doctrine contains some truth. We, like most adherents of every faith, believe ours is closest to the complete body of truth. It is the height of arrogance to thumb our noses at our literal brothers and sisters simply because they don't share our exact beliefs.

    Continue to preach, teach and exhort, but please stop insulting others' faiths.

  • Paul in MD Montgomery Village, MD
    Nov. 3, 2011 6:53 a.m.

    There have been a few practices people followed in the church that were later deemed to be counter productive. One is going on a mission without a testimony of your own. I don't really think it detracts from Brother Christensen's story.

    Not all 19-year old young men are self-aware enough to realize they are relying on other people's testimonies instead of their own. The point of Brother Christensen's experience, to me, is that when he did realize this he made the sacrifice to find out for himself.

  • jimbo American Fork, UT
    Nov. 3, 2011 12:10 a.m.

    Brahmabull and Vanka,
    I have at times in my life taken comfort from D&C 46:13-14 "To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God....To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful". Elder Scott testified in our recent stake conference as a special witness of Jesus Christ that he had a "perfect knowledge of Christ's divinity and the He leads this (the LDS) Church." I felt the spirit testify to me that what he said was true even though I don't have the same perfect knowledge. I believe these principles apply obtaining a testimony of the BoM. Logically, I believe the BoM is true because the many complexities of the book would be extremely difficult if not impossible for the unlearned Joseph Smith to concoct in a 2 month period of time. I have a spiritual testimony of the Book because of many spiritual witnesses I have received while studying it's teachings. I see nothing wrong with relying on other's testimonies until our own is eventually gained if we don't give up trying.

  • ThinksIThink SEATTLE, WA
    Nov. 2, 2011 11:58 p.m.

    Clayton received his testimony while studying at Oxford. Some posters previously thought it was relevant that he received his testimony that the Book of Mormon was true after he had already served a mission. I don't see what difference it makes when someone receives their testimony, so long as they receive it.

  • Kyle loves BYU/Jazz Provo, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 11:54 p.m.

    Sharrona. Praise does not equal worship. Nobody gets to Heaven through Joseph Smith's grace, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate what he did. As for the Brigham Young quote I fail to see how that implies worship. Maybe I don't define worship the same way you do. Having reverence for and worshiping are two different things for me.

    Vanka. I'm sorry so many people have judged you. I hope you will always feel comfortable going to church with your wife regardless of whether or not you received your answer. Best of luck in your crusade to get Mormons to be more aware of our assumptions and judgmental nature. Remember to be kind. People will listen to you more often.

  • LDSareChristian Anchorage, AK
    Nov. 2, 2011 11:38 p.m.

    Vanka,

    Perhaps the answer you have received is the answer the Lord desires?

    A number of the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon bore testimony that they needed to make departure from the church. Their testimony of the BoM remained stead fast, but that of the church waned. I sometimes ponder that perhaps this was the Lords plan in order to preserve the lives of the Witnesses. Sometimes the Lords ways are higher then our ways.
    Perhaps the Lord has other plans for your future. It may be that you are not meant to gain a testimony of Christ's church in this life.
    Keep up the good works and all will be well in the end. D&C 137:9

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Nov. 2, 2011 11:11 p.m.

    Continued...

    I love the service the church gives to people, and I enjoy helping others in the area with ward projects. It is great, but doesn't mean the church is true. I enjoy many of the talks, it doesn't mean they are true. I am open and honest about it, and honest with myself. I know others that struggle internally because of fear of the fear reprocussions of the family if they proclaim their doubts. I say, they are not alone. Better to ask questions now and be true with yourself then to pretend your way into believing something that you really don't believe, or being dishonest when getting a temple recommend. I can't say that it all isn't true, but I also am not sure that it is. Is that not ok, Bill?? Can one not go through a transition period where they don't know? Then I have people like you claiming I am not mormon, and you think that really helps the case for mormonism being the only true church? Kind of counterproductive there, don't you think?? Take care.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Nov. 2, 2011 11:06 p.m.

    Once again Bill you like to post what I am and what I believe instead of listening to me tell you what I believe. You claim I am not mormon... Ok, well just tell that to my ward that I go to every week. I am mormon by heritage, I believe alot of the teachings. I cannot say without a doubt that Joseph Smith was a true prophet as we are expected to do by church membership and leadership. I cannot say that I believe the church is the only true church as we are expected to say by church leadership and members. I am honest and open about it and when I have questions I ask them. I don't like the 'apologist' answers that yourself and many others give. I like real, true answers. Though I am on a different level of mormonism as you, I am still mormon. God cannot fault me for not believing these things, I have studied, prayed, had faith etc. For me, it simply isn't there. No proof, no spiritual witness. Have I felt the spirit during church, absolutely. But I have never received a witness that it was all true.

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 10:47 p.m.

    Bill,

    You continue to judge and condemn me unrighteously.

    I asked and nothing was given.
    I sought, but did not find anything.
    I knocked and nothing was opened.

    For twenty years.

    That ship has sailed. I got my answer: nothing.

    So twisting time around and saying that my current comments disqualify me for past "witnesses" from God is the same kind of anachronistic nonsense we get in the BOM itself.

    To Stay the Course,

    I have already gone on record as having made that "offer" to god - many times. He was a no-show at the deal table. That is why, after 20 years of asking, seeking, and knocking in vain, I have decided it is my mission in life to disabuse LDS of the horribly judgmental notion that those who do NOT get "the answer" are somehow unworthy or defective.

    I will not cease in my mission.

  • Stay the Course Salt Lake City, utah
    Nov. 2, 2011 10:33 p.m.

    alt134
    Please explain why it is so insulting? Why did you leave the church then?

  • Stay the Course Salt Lake City, utah
    Nov. 2, 2011 10:30 p.m.

    Vanka
    Will you go on record and say you would spent the rest of your life building the "kingdom" as was mentioned in the article if you received the answer you say you have sought?
    That would take a mighty shift for you as you have been by your own admission the way you are for the last 20 yrs
    Pretty hard to change overnight

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Nov. 2, 2011 10:25 p.m.

    Vanka I think the truth has hit on the head along with the fact that our Father in Heaven knows our hearts better than we do. If as you say you haven't received an answer then maybe you ought to get down and ask him why instead of belittling everything the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints say. You say you have done it all well then prove to the Father that you have. By coming onto this board and belittling HIS church and HIS servants doesn't speak highly of your heart or your real intent except to destroy HIS work and HIS glory. Sounds quite a bit of what happened in the war in heaven to me and others. Do you really have a solid faith in Jesus Christ? Do you really believe he will answer each and every prayer? Do you really believe that you are a child of God? If any of these questions is yes, then the answer will come and it will come just as assuredly as it has for millions of others. There is no doubt of that. The problem is who will you believe yourself or our Heavenly Father.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Nov. 2, 2011 10:14 p.m.

    To Sharrona: So the Israelites didn't worship God but Moses from your words. Yert, we know that was not true. They speak quite reverently of Abraham, Adam, Isaac, Isaiah, Moses, Jacob and many others. Did they worship them or revere them? There is a major difference. Maybe you really need to go back and understand why PRAISE TO THE MAN was written and also that it state: "Praise to the man who communed with Jehova". It also talks of the the world will attone for his blood that was spilt by assassins. This is no different than any prophet that has been killed from the beginning of time. It was no different than the blood of Abel calling on to the Lord for which Cain was severly punished.

    Brahmabull, once more you side with critics and for go what the Leaders of the Church teach. You again are misleading the people by saying you are an LDS member but don't believe in the Book of Mormon. Again why do you think the Leaders (First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve) put out a special edition of the Ensign, but to tell the world the importance of the BOM.

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 9:47 p.m.

    I will place my story up against any believer's story, including Clayton Christensen, and I will show that I have tried just as hard, sought just as earnestly, studied, labored, wrestled with god until my limbs were almost out of joint, hoped, wished, proposed "deals", and on an on, for over 20 years!

    I attend LDS Church meetings with my LDS wife almost every week (better attendance than most Ward members).

    On behalf of my wife, we pay a full tithe and have done so for over 20 years.

    I do not drink alcohol, smoke, partake of coffee, tea, drugs, etc. - I keep the Word of Wisdom and even go beyond that, following a diet that the best medical science I can find will optimize my physical health.

    I have given help to those less fortunate then myself - to the tune of over $300,000 over the past 20 years. I have helped with both the Haiti and Katrina disasters.

    I will place my "good works" up against any LDS member.

    I am as "worthy" as any LDS member.

    But still I have received NOTHING.

    And I am tired of being judged, condemned, and told I am still deficient!

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 9:39 p.m.

    the truth,

    Please explain to me what it means to "have faith in Christ" when one does not even believe in God...

    Sounds like a circular argument: If I believe in Christ (the Mormon version of Christ, as described in the Book of Mormon), then and ONLY then can I get an "answer" that the Book of Mormon is true? Put more simply, if I believe the Book of Mormon is true, then I will receive a testimony that it is true?

    Seriously? Do you want people to take that argument seriously?

    What? Am I supposed to "pretend" that it is true? How is "pretending" consistent with having a "sincere heart"?

    Isn't it a sufficient act of faith to pray - to call out into the night sky, "Oh, God, if you are there, I will give away all my sins to know you."

    I have made such heart-felt appeals to heaven on countless occasions and received nothing. I have sought, but not found. I have asked, but it has not been given. I have knocked, but it has not been opened unto me.

    How many more hoops, gauntlets, conditions must I face? How much more condemnation by believers?

  • Munk Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 7:04 p.m.

    Regardless if the Book of Mormon is true or not.. it has brought people together. Look at what you Mormons have accomplished in the name of Christ and God...All this since what..the 1840s? You have build cities and towns and you have erected beautiful temples to God. On the subject of being true or not... why would it not be? Ask yourself this question.. what it divinely inspired? There ya go.

  • Adam Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 6:52 p.m.

    Ironically, as I was told today that both Clayton Christensen and Thomas Monson were both graduates of West High School in downtown SLC. I know it's off subject a bit, but I found it compelling after all the bad reputation stuff I have heard about West over the years.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 6:48 p.m.

    RE: atl134
    RE: Vanka
    RE: Brahmabull

    It is not enough to be sincere,
    it is not enough to have real intent,

    but you MUST have Faith in Christ, in fact, it is the most important of the three, a foundational principle.

    NO one here is judging, they simply have a true desire to help you get that testimony.

    People talk about sincerity and intent, but forget the requirement of faith in Christ.

  • JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt Beverly Hills, CA
    Nov. 2, 2011 6:32 p.m.

    I chose to join the CHurch and it was thorough thought and prayer that I came to this decision. I respect those who do not believe what I do. Believe me, I have been there, I have been on the other side and I do my utmost to help spread what I have found but not shove it in the faces of those who do not want to hear it. Everybody needs to chill out, to each his own.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 6:32 p.m.

    @Bill in Nebraska; We don't worship anyone except Jesus Christ,
    Brigham Young said, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are --Journal of Discourses 7:289).

    A popular song sung by Mormons in conference is "Praise to the Man" written by W.W. Phelps. I used to sing this song.

  • Michigander Westland, MI
    Nov. 2, 2011 6:13 p.m.

    @Vanka: You have received an answer! And that answer is that the Utah LDS Church are NOT the true representatives of the BOM. The only church on the face of the earth that correctly interprets ALL of the BOM has its international headquarters in Monongahela, Pennsylvania. The greatest fallacy of praying about the BOM has always been that accepting the BOM means accepting the Utah LDS Church. This has not been true since 1845.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 5:11 p.m.

    @ Bill in Nebraska; We don't worship anyone except Jesus Christ,
    A popular song sung by Mormons in conference is "Praise to the Man" written by W.W. Phelps. I used to sing this song.

    every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are --Journal of Discourses 7:289).Brigham Young

  • full disclosure Providence, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 5:05 p.m.

    This subject is being broached not just by Thomas Monson but also ward councils because many people are leaving the church over the Book of Mormon, The Book of Abraham. Polygamy, church history etc.
    I went to see my Stake President a few months back concerning a lot of the above, and he sent me home with the Clayton Christensen story that Thomas Monson tells. This is the churches defense. Find someone super intelligent and tell people to pray and people will go back to believing again.

  • Timp South Jordan, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 5:02 p.m.

    ha ha.. love how Clayton Christenson has become a mormon celebrity..

  • Anthracite Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 4:56 p.m.

    I can only speak for myself, but I also denounce BYU Girl's comment. It's not appropriate to tell people why they didn't get an answer (and Vocal Local, same goes for you regarding those who say they did get an answer). You don't know people's hearts, minds and experiences.

    I believe I did get an answer, but again, I can only speak for myself. And I appreciate atl134, Vanka and Brahmabull for pointing this out.

    Fellow Mormons, these people are not attacking the teachings of the Church. They are condemning a cultural attitude that should go away. Let's be kind and understanding.

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    Nov. 2, 2011 4:19 p.m.

    "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, to worship how, where, or what they may." Joseph Smith - Articles of Faith.

    A declaration of tolerance. Period - end of story.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Nov. 2, 2011 3:22 p.m.

    Atl134 - unfortunately if you do not agree with LDS teachings people want to say that you have not acted sincerely, or that you simply ignored the answer. If you took the Book of Mormon challenge and didn't get the "right" answer then you did it wrong. I know that train of thought doesn't make sense to you or I, but some LDS like to take shots or stabs at people who don't believe. The sad thing is that LDS claim to know that it is the ONLY true church, and the the rest of the 99.9 percent of the world is wrong for not believing. The .001 percent of the earths population that is mormon is right. The catholics also know that they are right. So do the muslims. So do the methodists. They have all had spiritual experiences that have led them to believe as such. So how come there can be so much confusion? Please don't take shots from people like BYU girl seriously, as most people who would say that have no idea about their church's history and are very niave.

  • danby SOUTH SALT LAKE, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 3:20 p.m.

    Wait a moment.. on wikipedia I found out Mr Christensen attended Oxford in 1977, thus well AFTER his mission in Korea! Does it mean..he went on his mission because he "trusted" his parents? No personal testimony of the BoM? Today he would be very much discouraged to embark on a mission. I can not understand why this case is being taken as an example. I am confused.

  • The Vanka Provo, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 3:20 p.m.

    "He told God how desperate he was to find out if this was a true book, and he told Him that if He would reveal to him that it was true, then he intended to dedicate his life to building this kingdom. And he told God that if it wasn't true he needed to know that for certain, too, because then he would dedicate his life to finding out what was true."

    This is almost verbatim how I would describe what I did for YEARS!

    And I got nothing.

    When I tell LDS people this, what do they say?

    Just what @BYU Girl said:

    "Those who doubt, haven't read it with a sincere heart".

    And you know my heart HOW?

    atl134 is almost right about such statements being "terribly insulting". I find such statement to be even WORSE than terribly insulting!

    And I will continue to fight against such unrighteous judgment and the wholesale condemnation of those of us who DID try Moroni's promise - repeatedly! - and got nothing!

    We are NOT insincere.
    We are NOT unworthy.
    We are NOT lacking in "real intent".
    We are NOT lesser creatures in god's eyes.
    We are NOT inferior to you!

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 1:31 p.m.

    @BYU Girl

    "Those who doubt, haven't read it with a sincere heart. "

    A word of advice to LDS members from someone who converted to and later left the church... never use this phrase, it's terribly insulting.

  • deseret pete robertson, Wy
    Nov. 2, 2011 1:22 p.m.

    It's pretty difficult for those who have not experienced the promptings of the Spirit to understand those who have and actually tend to discredit those individuals.I have felt that Spirit many times some of which have come unexpectadely,but certainly welcome.Those who seek the truth must authorize the Spirit to teach them by having a real desire to know truth and be willing to accept it. Truth does not come easily, or without great effot on the part of the learner.As the Book of Mormon states: "With real intent,Having faith in Christ'.Otherwise spiritual things seem like foolishness to them.Only those who have felt that witness of the Spirit can really know what it is like.

  • justaguy Out There in, WI
    Nov. 2, 2011 12:25 p.m.

    @Vocal Local

    Not so. Because the human body is the mechanism of the spirit as science learns more and more about how the body works it is easy to say that a spiritual experience is manufactured in the brain. But the body, including brain chemistry, is only the mechanism through which the spirit is experienced. It would be a mistake to conclude Christensen or anyone else wanted it so bad he somehow created the confirmation he was looking for. Or that anyone experiencing a manifestation of the spirit only imagined it in their mind. Sure, some are the result of that kind of thing but it would be wrong to sumarily dismiss them all as that. That simply is not the case.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Nov. 2, 2011 12:11 p.m.

    To MapleDon: I think sometimes we misunderstand the intentions of our Bishop and those who have been assigned to those positions. We don't worship anyone except Jesus Christ. I've been assigned at times to talk on specific talks by General Authorities and others. Why do you think that is? It isn't that we worship them but what they are saying. We need to understand that it is the same as each of us standing up and bearing our testimonies. It all is the same. Look beyond the meaning and stop trying to read between the lines. Many times I've learned something that I didn't know originally from those talks or what a particular person stated. Also, when a Bishop gives us an assignment he does so for a reason. Maybe asking him why would be good for the soul. Prayer is always a good answer and asking why and then doing the answer comes more freely.

    His story is not unlike others in the Church and after reading what he has to say maybe that will answer many of your questions. This is especially true of what Nephi said. After all he reflected on the prophets and his father.

  • MapleDon Springville, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 11:27 a.m.

    What is the reason for the obsession with Clayton Christensen? My ward's sacrament mtg two weeks ago was devoted to adoration of Bro Christensen. It was as if the speakers had met the Messiah himself.

    And I just got notice from the ward I'm assigned to that all ward council members were to read an article by Bro Christensen.

    We LDS have a tendency to worship individuals. I believe it's a bad habit.

    I think at times we ought to be reminded that the Church is Christ's. Further, it might be a good reminder to follow Nephi's declaration: "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins." (2 Nephi 25:26)

  • rogerdpack2 Orem, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 11:19 a.m.

    wow. shivers up my spine :)

  • VocalLocal Salt Lake, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 10:39 a.m.

    This was a very nice story to share and I enjoy learning of other's spiritual experiences. However, I think it is a testament to how if you want a divine manifestation badly enough you will get one and the most reasonable explanation for those experiences is that they are manufactured by the human brain.

  • BYU Girl West Valley City, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 10:20 a.m.

    President Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is another testament that Jesus is the Christ, for I feel that warm spirit testify to me each night as I read this true book of scripture. Joseph Smith was an instrument in restoring the true gospel of Jesus Christ. So glad I have the gospel in my life. Those who doubt, haven't read it with a sincere heart. Take the Book of Mormon challenge!!!