Comments about ‘At BYU, Pres. Thomas Monson relates how Harvard's Clayton Christensen got Book of Mormon testimony’

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Published: Wednesday, Nov. 2 2011 9:42 a.m. MDT

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Adam
Salt Lake City, UT

Ironically, as I was told today that both Clayton Christensen and Thomas Monson were both graduates of West High School in downtown SLC. I know it's off subject a bit, but I found it compelling after all the bad reputation stuff I have heard about West over the years.

Munk
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Regardless if the Book of Mormon is true or not.. it has brought people together. Look at what you Mormons have accomplished in the name of Christ and God...All this since what..the 1840s? You have build cities and towns and you have erected beautiful temples to God. On the subject of being true or not... why would it not be? Ask yourself this question.. what it divinely inspired? There ya go.

Vanka
Provo, UT

the truth,

Please explain to me what it means to "have faith in Christ" when one does not even believe in God...

Sounds like a circular argument: If I believe in Christ (the Mormon version of Christ, as described in the Book of Mormon), then and ONLY then can I get an "answer" that the Book of Mormon is true? Put more simply, if I believe the Book of Mormon is true, then I will receive a testimony that it is true?

Seriously? Do you want people to take that argument seriously?

What? Am I supposed to "pretend" that it is true? How is "pretending" consistent with having a "sincere heart"?

Isn't it a sufficient act of faith to pray - to call out into the night sky, "Oh, God, if you are there, I will give away all my sins to know you."

I have made such heart-felt appeals to heaven on countless occasions and received nothing. I have sought, but not found. I have asked, but it has not been given. I have knocked, but it has not been opened unto me.

How many more hoops, gauntlets, conditions must I face? How much more condemnation by believers?

Vanka
Provo, UT

I will place my story up against any believer's story, including Clayton Christensen, and I will show that I have tried just as hard, sought just as earnestly, studied, labored, wrestled with god until my limbs were almost out of joint, hoped, wished, proposed "deals", and on an on, for over 20 years!

I attend LDS Church meetings with my LDS wife almost every week (better attendance than most Ward members).

On behalf of my wife, we pay a full tithe and have done so for over 20 years.

I do not drink alcohol, smoke, partake of coffee, tea, drugs, etc. - I keep the Word of Wisdom and even go beyond that, following a diet that the best medical science I can find will optimize my physical health.

I have given help to those less fortunate then myself - to the tune of over $300,000 over the past 20 years. I have helped with both the Haiti and Katrina disasters.

I will place my "good works" up against any LDS member.

I am as "worthy" as any LDS member.

But still I have received NOTHING.

And I am tired of being judged, condemned, and told I am still deficient!

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

To Sharrona: So the Israelites didn't worship God but Moses from your words. Yert, we know that was not true. They speak quite reverently of Abraham, Adam, Isaac, Isaiah, Moses, Jacob and many others. Did they worship them or revere them? There is a major difference. Maybe you really need to go back and understand why PRAISE TO THE MAN was written and also that it state: "Praise to the man who communed with Jehova". It also talks of the the world will attone for his blood that was spilt by assassins. This is no different than any prophet that has been killed from the beginning of time. It was no different than the blood of Abel calling on to the Lord for which Cain was severly punished.

Brahmabull, once more you side with critics and for go what the Leaders of the Church teach. You again are misleading the people by saying you are an LDS member but don't believe in the Book of Mormon. Again why do you think the Leaders (First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve) put out a special edition of the Ensign, but to tell the world the importance of the BOM.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

Vanka I think the truth has hit on the head along with the fact that our Father in Heaven knows our hearts better than we do. If as you say you haven't received an answer then maybe you ought to get down and ask him why instead of belittling everything the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints say. You say you have done it all well then prove to the Father that you have. By coming onto this board and belittling HIS church and HIS servants doesn't speak highly of your heart or your real intent except to destroy HIS work and HIS glory. Sounds quite a bit of what happened in the war in heaven to me and others. Do you really have a solid faith in Jesus Christ? Do you really believe he will answer each and every prayer? Do you really believe that you are a child of God? If any of these questions is yes, then the answer will come and it will come just as assuredly as it has for millions of others. There is no doubt of that. The problem is who will you believe yourself or our Heavenly Father.

Stay the Course
Salt Lake City, utah

Vanka
Will you go on record and say you would spent the rest of your life building the "kingdom" as was mentioned in the article if you received the answer you say you have sought?
That would take a mighty shift for you as you have been by your own admission the way you are for the last 20 yrs
Pretty hard to change overnight

Stay the Course
Salt Lake City, utah

alt134
Please explain why it is so insulting? Why did you leave the church then?

Vanka
Provo, UT

Bill,

You continue to judge and condemn me unrighteously.

I asked and nothing was given.
I sought, but did not find anything.
I knocked and nothing was opened.

For twenty years.

That ship has sailed. I got my answer: nothing.

So twisting time around and saying that my current comments disqualify me for past "witnesses" from God is the same kind of anachronistic nonsense we get in the BOM itself.

To Stay the Course,

I have already gone on record as having made that "offer" to god - many times. He was a no-show at the deal table. That is why, after 20 years of asking, seeking, and knocking in vain, I have decided it is my mission in life to disabuse LDS of the horribly judgmental notion that those who do NOT get "the answer" are somehow unworthy or defective.

I will not cease in my mission.

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

Once again Bill you like to post what I am and what I believe instead of listening to me tell you what I believe. You claim I am not mormon... Ok, well just tell that to my ward that I go to every week. I am mormon by heritage, I believe alot of the teachings. I cannot say without a doubt that Joseph Smith was a true prophet as we are expected to do by church membership and leadership. I cannot say that I believe the church is the only true church as we are expected to say by church leadership and members. I am honest and open about it and when I have questions I ask them. I don't like the 'apologist' answers that yourself and many others give. I like real, true answers. Though I am on a different level of mormonism as you, I am still mormon. God cannot fault me for not believing these things, I have studied, prayed, had faith etc. For me, it simply isn't there. No proof, no spiritual witness. Have I felt the spirit during church, absolutely. But I have never received a witness that it was all true.

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

Continued...

I love the service the church gives to people, and I enjoy helping others in the area with ward projects. It is great, but doesn't mean the church is true. I enjoy many of the talks, it doesn't mean they are true. I am open and honest about it, and honest with myself. I know others that struggle internally because of fear of the fear reprocussions of the family if they proclaim their doubts. I say, they are not alone. Better to ask questions now and be true with yourself then to pretend your way into believing something that you really don't believe, or being dishonest when getting a temple recommend. I can't say that it all isn't true, but I also am not sure that it is. Is that not ok, Bill?? Can one not go through a transition period where they don't know? Then I have people like you claiming I am not mormon, and you think that really helps the case for mormonism being the only true church? Kind of counterproductive there, don't you think?? Take care.

LDSareChristian
Anchorage, AK

Vanka,

Perhaps the answer you have received is the answer the Lord desires?

A number of the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon bore testimony that they needed to make departure from the church. Their testimony of the BoM remained stead fast, but that of the church waned. I sometimes ponder that perhaps this was the Lords plan in order to preserve the lives of the Witnesses. Sometimes the Lords ways are higher then our ways.
Perhaps the Lord has other plans for your future. It may be that you are not meant to gain a testimony of Christ's church in this life.
Keep up the good works and all will be well in the end. D&C 137:9

Kyle loves BYU/Jazz
Provo, UT

Sharrona. Praise does not equal worship. Nobody gets to Heaven through Joseph Smith's grace, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate what he did. As for the Brigham Young quote I fail to see how that implies worship. Maybe I don't define worship the same way you do. Having reverence for and worshiping are two different things for me.

Vanka. I'm sorry so many people have judged you. I hope you will always feel comfortable going to church with your wife regardless of whether or not you received your answer. Best of luck in your crusade to get Mormons to be more aware of our assumptions and judgmental nature. Remember to be kind. People will listen to you more often.

ThinksIThink
SEATTLE, WA

Clayton received his testimony while studying at Oxford. Some posters previously thought it was relevant that he received his testimony that the Book of Mormon was true after he had already served a mission. I don't see what difference it makes when someone receives their testimony, so long as they receive it.

jimbo
American Fork, UT

Brahmabull and Vanka,
I have at times in my life taken comfort from D&C 46:13-14 "To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God....To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful". Elder Scott testified in our recent stake conference as a special witness of Jesus Christ that he had a "perfect knowledge of Christ's divinity and the He leads this (the LDS) Church." I felt the spirit testify to me that what he said was true even though I don't have the same perfect knowledge. I believe these principles apply obtaining a testimony of the BoM. Logically, I believe the BoM is true because the many complexities of the book would be extremely difficult if not impossible for the unlearned Joseph Smith to concoct in a 2 month period of time. I have a spiritual testimony of the Book because of many spiritual witnesses I have received while studying it's teachings. I see nothing wrong with relying on other's testimonies until our own is eventually gained if we don't give up trying.

Paul in MD
Montgomery Village, MD

There have been a few practices people followed in the church that were later deemed to be counter productive. One is going on a mission without a testimony of your own. I don't really think it detracts from Brother Christensen's story.

Not all 19-year old young men are self-aware enough to realize they are relying on other people's testimonies instead of their own. The point of Brother Christensen's experience, to me, is that when he did realize this he made the sacrifice to find out for himself.

Paul in MD
Montgomery Village, MD

Vanka and others here make very valid points.

I don't know why some people get the answers they are looking for and others don't. I do know it isn't my place to judge them because of their beliefs. Isn't that exactly what we members of the LDS church want from them? It is highly hypocritical and un-Christian to condemn anyone for not believing what we believe.

Whether we each do our best to find and follow the truth is no one's business but ours and God's.

I think our general authorities have realized another thing that a few have pointed out here today - it is really obnoxious and counter-productive to take the attitude "we've got it all so your church is all wrong!" Every religion's body of doctrine contains some truth. We, like most adherents of every faith, believe ours is closest to the complete body of truth. It is the height of arrogance to thumb our noses at our literal brothers and sisters simply because they don't share our exact beliefs.

Continue to preach, teach and exhort, but please stop insulting others' faiths.

Central Texan
Buda, TX

@ Vanka

If God is just, then inasmuch as you are sincere you have nothing to worry about.

sharrona
layton, UT

Bill in Nebraksa, The problem is who will you believe yourself or our Heavenly Father.
Faith is only as good as the object of that faith(not an exalted man),Since our eternal destiny is dependent on what we put our trust in now, shouldnt there be something more trustworthy than feelings:
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?( Jer 17:3)
The Bible,In 1 Thess 21, test them all; hold on to what is good. do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world(1John 4:1).
I prayed and I searched the scriptures like the Bereans (Acts 17:11) and the Bible told me Mormonism was false.

Let Gods curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel[Mornoni] from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. (Gal 1:8 Greek N.T.)

Rocket Science
Brigham City, UT

I wish I could remember the line from The Count of Monte Cristo When in prison and discussing things with the old Priest he says I dont believe in God the old Priest very kindly and in a completely non judgmental way responds something like thats OK, He believes in you

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