In the news today, a Salt Lake city man (citizen) avoided a lengthy jail term
for selling drugs, when he claimed to be an illegal alien from Mexico. He was
given a trip to Mexico, where he stayed for a short period of time, then used
his passport to come back into Utah, and return to his life as an American
citizen. We need to enforce the laws on the books and see if they
work. How do we know our immigration laws are broke, when we don't enforce them?
@Curmudgeon | 9:22 a.m. Nov. 2, 2011 "Would the anti-illegal
immigration advocates who are members of the LDS Church (you know who you are)
please reconcile their posiiton with the Church's endorsement of the Utah
Compact? Were the brethren not inspired on this one? Does the admonition to
follow the prophet only apply when you agree with the prophet?"----------------------------------The prophet? YOU SHOW ME the
prophet's NAME, his signature, the NAME of his office (e.g. "The First
Presidency"), or the express invocation of his specific authority (or
investiture of such authority) on that press release. NONE of those things are
to be found on the statement of endorsement. The assumption that the statement
was inspired, that it actually came from the Prophet or that it carries with it
the unanimous consensus (D&C 107) of the First Presidency and Council of the
Twelve, is an ASSUMPTION. NOTHING MORE. The notion that members of
the Church are under obligation to give heed to INCOGNITO statements issued by
Public Affairs Department personnel has NO foundation in the doctrine. Authority, and EXPRESS INVOCATION of authority, on the other hand, hold
a quite prominent position in LDS doctrine.
I think the position of the LDS Church on immigration has been pretty obvious
for a long time. Even back in the 70's I heard the word go out that the Church
did not want all LDS people to move to Salt Lake City. They wanted members to
stay in their area and build up the church there. Today the church has build
over a hundred temples all over the world. There about 12 in Mexico alone.
What does that tell you? Plus the recent Perpetual Education Fund, which
largely helps people of the Central and South American countries get educated so
they can help build up their areas. I'm sure the Church will treat illegals
with humanity and respect. I'm also sure that the Church would tell them to
obey the laws of the land, whichever land that may be.
@The Real Maverick:"Yet, the crimes committed by wall street
and corporations? Go unpunished and are actually encouraged by the right
wing."What crimes were those? Please elucidate.-------------------@Curmudgeon:"And don't tell me
that splitting up families is an act of benevolence."If
families are split up, it's at the option of the families... there is nothing
that says they can't take their families with them as they depart.------------------@Clinton King (Ephraim):"I do
think that laws restricting the natural flow of human populations in response to
socioeconomic conditions are stupid and oppressive."So, let's
see, you're advocating that the people of one nation cross the border, walk into
another nation, unimpeded, and take over? Is that your point?Which
is exactly what illegal immigrants to this country are doing. It is projected,
in the next 40 or so years, Hispanics will become the majority in the US... and
with it, Spanish will replace English as the dominant language. Can you say,
'como esta, usted?'
Andrew, I think you misunderstand the Utah Compact. It is not compassionate in
any way although it is promoted as being such. It simply provides a legal way
for the continued exploitation of poor people that are not legal citizens of the
country. It encourages them to stay in Utah, where they can continue in the
name of compassion to be exploited by business, religion, and politicians.
Compassion would be to stop this trafficking in human bondage now and forever by
securing our southern and northern borders through strong bilateral agreements
with Mexico and Canada. It is time for real compassion with laws that are
enforced and respected by all, and fair treatment of the poor whether they be
citizens or non-citizens.
"It is a thoughtful alternative to the extremist attitude that all
undocumented immigrants in Utah must somehow be punished..."They don't have to be punished. They can go home, get in line and sign up for
entry just like the millions who are doing it right.----------------@Twin Lights:"Our current system
seems focused on punishing the innocent."Our current system is
to ensure that our nation's immigration laws are followed. We are a nation of
laws and those who violate our laws should have no place in this country.
Anything less than of illegals removal, post haste, is amnesty. Every illegal
immigrant has a story as to why they should be allowed to stay. The fairest
action, then, is to require all to leave."Families that are
predominantly made up of US citizens but include one or two illegal aliens are
made to either leave or break up the family."If families don't
want to be broken up, they need to all leave. It is not this government's job
to ensure that the families who's members came here illegally should not be
broken up. In fact, the government's job is just the opposite... to enforce
To "LDS Liberal | 2:50 p.m. " I never advocated breaking the law. I
advocated obeying the law about impeding traffic.Is this how
liberals treat those with opposing views? Baseless, false accusations?
Mike,I totally agree with you, those who spend their time crying for
illegal aliens need to pay the way for them. Just don't hold your breath as
liberals never want anything they can't pay for with other people's money.
@Curmudgeon, I never heard the First Presidency claim their agreeing with the
compact was inspired from God. They also agreed on the four bills, three of
which took the right of immigration from the Federal government, a direct
opposite of the Compact. They are both propaganda for the left, and
business interests interests in this country. Brigham Young in his
journal of discourses told us that if we questioned our church leaders, ask of
God. Blind faith is not a tenet of the LDS church. It's amazing the
excuses people are using to justify law breaking, of not only those who come
here illegally, but those that hire them. We have lost our way and let greed
The CON PACT is nothing to celebrate and is nothing more or less than amnesty
LITE packaged as some sort of a pseudo solution that helps politicians like
Herbert, Obama, and others pander for future voters. In the case of Herbert it
helps him stay in good standing with the church and other special interests and
helps him appease hispanics. HB116, the CON PACT, etc. are all nonsense that
over 70% of Utahns totally oppose but politicians and other special interests
never stop trying to push it all down our throats.I guarantee you that Herbert
is going to go down in the next election over this, as a Republican delegate I
can tell you that he is losing support in his own party and will be lucky if he
even gets the nomination.
Isn't it nice to see that those who are for illegal immigration resort to
attacking personally those who demand that laws be obeyed?They would
reason that just because we have a lots of bank-robbers, we need to change the
law to make bank robbing legal, or at the very least, we need to forgive,
without prosecution all bank robbers whose families might be inconvenienced if
the bank robber were punished according to the law.They align
themselves with the lawless, with those who despise the law, but then they mock
those of us who uphold the law.Changing the law to allow illegal
immigrants to stay in America is amnesty. That would be rewarding people for
breaking into our country, for stealing our identities, for lying about their
status, for sending their children to our schools, for using our hospitals - and
then walking away from the responsibility to pay for those schools and for those
medical bills.Justice demands that they be sent home. Mercy would
require that those who advocate letting them stay pay, 100%, of all real costs
for those illegal activities.
@ "Curmudgeon" The year is 2011! Not 200 b.c. or 1840!Over the years nations have set up pesky "boundaries" and we've
learned to record the "comings and goings" of individuals, not
necessarily to LIMIT their freedom, but to allow for freedom for all. We also
have deeds of trust and other similar instruments that DEFINE LEGAL BORDERS and
are designed to eliminate ILLEGAL trespassing.Should we eliminate
those?I guess my "laser focus" in regards to obeying laws,
is similar to your "laser focus" on SUPPORTING the Utah Compact,
ignoring EXISTING laws.Families DON'T NEED to be "split
up" but they DO need to obey the law, just as legal residents are required
to do or suffer the consequences of their actions.I am OPPOSED to
illegal immigration.I am VERY MUCH in favor of LEGAL immigration.By definition they are DIFFERENT!
Allowing and encouraging people to come to the US without permission and to work
here for under-the-table cash or using stolen identities is not compassionate.
It is just our current form of slavery.If we want to help others
around the world the way to do it is by remaining the strongest economy so we
can lift others up to our level. Instead we have elected leaders who encourage
offshore manufacturing and illegal immigration, both of which have weakened the
US Economy. And they support and allow the monetary policies and bailouts that
have us headed for a third-world economy. This isn't a left or right issue. Both
sides have sold us out for their own gain.Why should a person have
to leave their homeland for a better life. Why can't we teach people all over
the world how to better themselves and their societies? There's your compassion.
As with every government intrusion and program its 'all or nothing.' The fools
that run the government can't be relied on to be reasonable. With immigration
to them it doesn't make sense to protect the border, but it does make sense to
play a game of send you back so you can come back. The same goes with those
they send back...law enforcement should get rid of the criminal element and make
a way for those who are here to become part of our society. The fools have
already let too many come over illegally and now we should do what should have
been done decades ago. And you wonder why congress has such a low rating?
Andrew you call the vast majority of the people of Utah "extremists".
It is the real "extremists", those who oppose the rule of
law, and the clear will of the people, and reject the obvious ways to deal with
illegality, who get the best of the regular columnists of the nation's
newspapers.They rule the newspaper columns it seems, but the people
rule the forums. The unrepresentative politicians and remiss bureaucrats and
officials occupy the corridors of power, but the people with their voices and
their too infrequent peaceful petitioning of the government for the redress of
grievances who dominate the real discussion as newspapers are laid aside in
disgust and TV channels are switched and turned off in I think well-earned
contempt.Who will win? The people, if they are vigilant, insistent and
Is this the very same law abiding "RedShirt", who yesterday
advocated the breaking of Speed Limits and HOV lanes.Do you want to
break laws, or follow them Red?You can't cherry-pick.
Deciding which laws are stupid and oppressive is indeed difficult and messy.
Often bloody wars are involved (read the Revolutionary War) before we get rid of
the stupid and oppressive laws. On the other hand, Ghandi was able to use
civil disobedience to overturn stupid and oppressive conditions in British
India. I do not advocate anarchy as much as I advocate civil disobedience, and I
do think that laws restricting the natural flow of human populations in response
to socioeconomic conditions are stupid and oppressive.
Redshirt1701,Why do I "want to keep families separated by
allowing part of a family to remain in the US while the rest of their family is
outside the US?"Did you read my post?In it I said
"But, assuming no other issues with the law beyond immigration status,
there should be an option for them to make amends and continue their lives HERE
TOGETHER." (emphasis added).I am clearly advocating that they
be allowed to stay here as a family.Your post entirely misrepresents
my stated position.And, this is the second time this has
happened.Please. Let's have an honest discussion of the issues and
not misrepresent the other's position.
Re: "Scapegoating and senseless retribution are always wrong."You mean like the open borders crowd scapegoating the honest, decent,
hardworking people of Utah that advocate respect for the rule of law?
Fitness Freak:Nice try, but you didn't come close to reconciling the
Church's endorsement of the Utah Compact with your laser (shall we say narrow)
focus on enforcement of the law. Are you equally critical of Moses, Daniel,
Nephi, William Tyndale, Brigham Young and others who violated the law of the
land to follow what they believed was a higher law?But since you
brought up the 12th article of faith, try reconciling it with the 13th article
of faith, which declares that LDS folk believe in being benevolent and in doing
good to all men. And don't tell me that splitting up families is an act of
Hilarious, crimes committed by poor immigrants are looked down upon by the right
wing in terror and disdain!Yet, the crimes committed by wall street
and corporations? Go unpunished and are actually encouraged by the right wing.
Hypocrisy anyone? Keep drinkin the kool-aid repubs....
@clinton king WHO gets to decide which laws are "stupid and
oppressive"?You? Me? You DO UNDERSTAND (I hope)
that what you're advocating is anarchy??There are LEGAL means to
emigrate.There are also LEGAL means to change the laws.BOTH of those means avoid anarchy.
If you want to increase bad behavior, all you have to do is reward it. Illegal
immigration is a crime. By rewarding it with amnesty you can expect even more.
The Utah Compact was used by politicians to create HB116 which by every
definition is amnesty for illegal aliens, because it only applies to those
living illegally in Utah. HB116 will offer a Utah Permit to work and
live in Utah, with or without permission of congress. (unconstitutional) The
Utah Permit is unlimited as to how many illegal aliens and employers would be
eligible for the permit. Use your imagination, maybe a hundred thousand or
more?There is also no limit to what employers would eligible for the
permits. If you thought it was only for agriculture, you need to read it.
Construction companies, school districts, mechanics, moving companies,
hospitality, you name it, could receive a permit to hire any illegal alien with
a Utah work permit. HB116 which was created by using sympathy
created by The Utah Compact and is designed to flood the Utah labor market with
cheap labor, thereby depressing wages, and includes any type of labor.
Redshirt1701 | 8:20 a.m. Nov. 2, 2011 Deep Space 9, Ut ================ RedShirt --- You lost any and all
creditability in this debate about obeying laws, with your silly hypocritical
rants about breaking all sorts of laws about Speeding and HOV lanes
yesterday.I'll use something you understand better - your absolutist
logic....You either are a law abider, or a law breaker.Stop
picking and choosing which law are OK for you to break & ignore -- while
forcing 100% compliance on everyone else. Grow up, and please show
How do you condone mercy when it is accompanied by a willing violation of the
rule of law? Native-born Americans are not shown mercy when we violate the laws
of the land, but we should look the other way when people sneak into our country
illegally? What crime can I commit and get away with? Can I get free health care
too? Give me a break!
To "Twin Lights | 11:13 a.m." but it is the same problem. A criminal
who is sent to prison for any reason will be separated from their family. So,
sending them back to their home country is actually MORE human than sending them
to prision for breaking the law.By sending them back to their own
country they can be reunited with their family as soon as their family decides
to go.Why do you want to keep families separated by allowing part of
a family to remain in the US while the rest of their family is outside the US?
Should we obey, honor, and sustain laws that are stupid and oppressive?I
can think of several people that are honored as heroes for breaking laws that
were stupid and oppressive in their days. (John Hancock and the Tea Act?)
JBrady at 1:22 am,By stating that the Utah Compact is "nothing
more than a tool to promote amnesty," this implies that The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints supports amnesty. Do you think the LDS church
supports amnesty, or were the LDS church leaders duped by pro-amnesty D.C.
lobbyists? In both cases, I think the answer is "no."It
has been very difficult for many Latter-day Saints to set aside the philosophies
of man and embrace the teachings of our LDS church leaders. Of course, I have no
idea whether JBrady is a member of the LDS church, but this is a church-owned
newspaper, and most commenters here are members of the LDS church. It is
difficult to admit the shortcomings of our own opinions, but if we sincerely try
to understand the teachings of the LDS church leaders, then we can grow as
individuals. Individual growth begets better governance.
Redshirt1701,Please. Equating a murderer in prison with an illegal
immigrant is beyond the pale and deserves no serious consideration or
response.I don't call them anchor babies and neither should anyone
else. And in my experience it certainly does not give their families a quick
path to illegal status (hence my post).Mike RichardsThose who support changing the law to allow folks now here illegally to stay
under a revised legal code do no mockery. They simply advocate for a change in
the law. Period.
@"Curmudgeon" 9:22I'll be glad to! I was
taught to "honor, obey, and sustain", the law. To me, (among other
things), that translates to: paying my taxes, being courteous to, and paying the
fines levied against me by police officers, and otherwise doing my part to make
society better including calling police when I see a law potentially being
violated. Several years ago I TRIED reporting illegal trespassers; the cops
said they "couldn't do anything about it"!I also believe I
should be "subject to kings, rulers, and magistrates". So, while I
may not agree with everything our current President does (or doesn't do)
regarding immigration I support that he has the AUTHORITY to make those
decisions. But I have the RESPONSIBILITY to try to elect someone next time who
more closely (in my opinion) enforces the nations laws. Keep in
mind: immigration enforcement issues are NOT new laws. I/we only want ones
ENFORCED that are already existing! I have no BELIEF WHATSOEVER that the
"Utah Compact" was designed to do anything except guarantee another
year of subservient wages/workers to an unethical business community!
The uncontrolled immigration of workers is the same thing as sending American
jobs overseas to cheap labor. The reason those overseas nations have cheap
labor is because of the economic oppression imposed upon their citizens by the
commercial business tyrants. It is their desire and plan to bring about that
same condition in America. The Utah Compact is a part of that plan.
While propagandizing the humane considerations for foreign labor, the people
who support the compact ignore the welfare of Utah and American citizens. The actual purpose of the Utah Compact is to enrich the rich and
powerful business interests. And the people who support the compact could care
less about the welfare of Americans.
After struggling with the issue of legal/illegal on this matter, I am not
surprised at the Church's stand here. The children are innocent of
any violations. It is for their sake, we extend compassion. The Lord has always stood on the side of Mercy.
Mike Richards | 8:36 a.m. Nov. 2, 2011 South Jordan, Utah Encouraging law breaking, no matter the issue, is wrong. ============= So, you must support punishing the Businesses who
are supporting, supplying and providing the only draw for illegal
immigration.Just like drugs and other illegal activity -You can waste you time going after the millions of individual usersor
better yet - Go after and Punish the Pusher, Dealer, and
Smugglers....Businesses.Thanks for being on OUR side of the issue.
Would the anti-illegal immigration advocates who are members of the LDS Church
(you know who you are) please reconcile their posiiton with the Church's
endorsement of the Utah Compact? Were the brethren not inspired on this one?
Does the admonition to follow the prophet only apply when you agree with the
Enforcing the law is "scapegoating and senseless retribution"? No it
is not -- not in a country that's devoted to the rule of law. Ignore one law
because its enforcement is deemed politically incorrect by the intelligensia and
we abandon the rule of law for the rule of popular opinion. Compassion is fine,
but not at the expense of abandonment of one of the foundation principles that's
made this country great.
Encouraging law breaking, no matter the issue, is wrong. There was a law in
place forbidding people to enter the United States without permission. Those
who broke that law must face the consequences of breaking that law. The
consequence, as spelled out in the Act is that them must be deported. That's
the law.Those who mock the law, both the illegal immigrant and the
citizens who support illegal immigration, have no respect for law or for order.
They favor disorder and disrespect. They want their "favorite
criminal" to be allowed to stay in America simply because they have become
friends with that criminal.That is not reason enough to encourage
breaking the law. That is not reason enough to ignore the consequences of law
breaking.Let them leave this country, with their families, and then
let them apply to return - legally.
To "Twin Lights | 5:48 a.m." you cry for the illegals that are sent
back to their country, but you don't cry for the illegal who left their family
behind to persue a life here? What about the murderer who is forced to leave
their family behind to go to prison, do you have the same compassion for them
also?Should we also make provisions to immediately remove people
that don't have family here so that their familes can be intact?What
about the criminal in prison? Should we make all efforts to ensure that they
can maintain a normal family life?There is a reson why they are
called anchor babies, and once you make the exception for those with children
here you are going to open the floodgate for illegal immigrants coming here and
giving birth as soon as possible to get them on the quick path to legal status.
It would be great if someone came up with a "Compact" that dealt with
fairness for Utah citizens. Where is the care about the 9% or so that are
unemployed? Where is the care about the thousands of Utah citizens whose
identities have been stolen by the people that the Utah Compact is so concerned
about? Where is the care about the thousands of Utah citizens who are impacted
by the crimes committed by the Utah Compact subjects? There is
nothing wrong with being concerned about the plight of others around the World.
It does, though, become an issue when you involuntarily make that plight the
concern of everyone else.
Foreign invaders don't deserve amnesty, which is what the compact does. Crossing
borders and occupying a country is never right. Our brave ancestors sweeped
this land clean so we could have the Kingdom of God here, and if the immigrants
want to take part in this great land they need to wait their turn in line like
every one else. And if the politically correct liberals let their hearts bleed
over this, maybe they should put their money where their mouth is and trade
places with one of these immigrants. Move out of your house and let them have
it, and move south into Mexico. Then maybe you will appreciate this great land.
"Compassionate," "fair," "reasonable," and
"thoughtful" are apt descriptions of what the anti-illegal immigration
crowd isn't. Unfortunately, there are a lot of them, especially in the
"fair and reasonable" have little to do with the current political
climate."Scapegoating and senseless retribution" may well
be wrong, but they make for great politics.Our current system seems
focused on punishing the innocent. A family of my acquaintance was here legally
and had been for over a decade. They were good, hardworking folks. Their visas
ran out and they were told to go.Families that are predominantly
made up of US citizens but include one or two illegal aliens are made to either
leave or break up the family. Did some of those folks choose to come here
illegally? Sure. Should there be some consequences? Sure. But why ship them
AND the US citizens out?Please, no crocodile tears and foolishness
about how the citizens could stay if they want. Of course the family should
stay together. But, assuming no other issues with the law beyond immigration
status, there should be an option for them to make amends and continue their
lives here together.Our current program (the result of successive
administrations of both parties) puts us in danger of creating a permanent
underclass. That has never worked out anywhere and it usually ends rather
For a different and not-quite-so-rosy view of the Utah Compact I urge readers to
do an online search for a series of four eye-opening articles by former Arizona
State Senator Karen Johnson (Who Wrote the Utah Compact; Propaganda and the Utah
Compact; The One-Sided Utah Compact; and All Roads Lead to Radical). I agree with JBrady above. We need a Utah Honesty Compact! I would love to
see public officials and religious leaders not only publically denounce illegal
immigration but also strongly urge their constituents and congregants to be
honest in their dealings with their fellow citizens and legal immigrants and
sign a compact or contract that states they will employ only those legally
authorized to work here. Anything less is a betrayal of trust. I
for one will not support the Utah Compact.
Pound of flesh? The compact has nothing to do with being fair to anyone. The
National Immigration Forum (pro-illegal Washington group) has taken credit for
it. It's nothing more than a tool to promote amnesty. I think Utahns
have seen through it. It's never caught on nationally except with a few small
splinter groups across the country. We need a Utah Honesty Compact
as far as immigration goes.