I will say though that Unions may be an entities that have passed their time.
Historically speaking, employers truly did get away with murder - literally.
But labor laws, and silly little things like OSHA have removed a lot of the
needs driving these groups to exist.I do question the need for
unions in public service jobs. But the conservative standpoint that unions are
not needed in government is a bit two faced, because 5 minutes later these very
same conservatives will be claiming government can't do anything right. So if
government indeed needs watchdoging, to check its desire to have unbalanced
power - one would think that in itself would justify unions.I
personally don't think all government is incompetent, and therefor doesn't
always need to be checked. But there are instances that you do have bad school
administrators where they yield way too much power to make a teacher's life
miserable. In these cases unions do play a role in checking those influences.
I taught here in the valley and have seen this first hand. BTW I
never was a union member - not all teachers are.
Mick - Really? Your thinking is that "Good Old Boy" systems can be
prevented by getting rid of unions? I am not a union supported, but your
linkage is a stretch. "Poor Teaching" is an interesting term. Even
if you got rid of the "Poor Teachers", you wouldn't solve the problem
asn probably 90% of problems in the classroon are a result of poor parenting
rather than poor teaching.There are bad teachers, just there are bad
people in every profession. I would challenge the notion that being unionized
determines if someone is a hard worker or not. I can think of many example on
non-union people who aren't the most motivated workers either. Is it your claim
that if public servents like police and fire were not unionized, we would get
better service?Southwest Airlines is a non-union airline, the poster
child for the anti union movement - and yet even they posted a loss last
quarter, while highly unionized Delta posted a profit, despite charging the same
for the same service.
Sergio.."Romney is clearly anti labor and anti the working man".Anybody in the work force may be called working people. Where did you
come off using the old union slogan implying that, only union workers types are
working people. People work hard in offices, labrotories, and in other similar
type places too. If you get up and go to work in the mornings you should be
called a working person.Sergio, this is just union rhetoric designed
to divide people and get your own way.
Utahbluedevil-I don't have a say. I don't have lobby money from
unions or other organizations to persuade "my representative". UEA
has powerful lobby money. Teachers don't get fired. I have several examples of
the "good old boy" system in local schools. Poor teaching. Students
sluffing in his room, but because they are a head hancho in the UEA association,
he gets a free pass.I also have examples of a friend who worked for
the port of long beach for years. He was a member of the teamsters. Obtained
his job from a lottery because that is how popular the jobs are. He works four
hours a day and received a full 8 hour salary with complete benefits. He was
able to retire at age 55 with a full retirement and benefits. You and I pay for
that with a higher fee on everything that comes through the port of long beach,
which by the way, is everything.
DSB | 4:37 p.m. Oct. 26, 2011 Cedar Hills, UTJust more of the
media, and apparently most people on these comment boards, engaging in the type
of "gotcha" journalism and dishonest characterizations that seem to
dominate the dialogue today.==========="Gotcha
journalism"? Is that what reporting the facts is referred to now?How can a true, authentic person flip flop so completely on issues such as
abortion, climate change, minimum wage, health care, and DADT?This
is what will prevent him from winning, not his religion.
@UtahBlueDevil,With the money sent, you've got to assume job
creations. This is just two of many examples. (1.) By MATTHEW MOSK,
BRIAN ROSS (@brianross) and RONNIE GREENEABC NEWS and iWATCH NEWS Oct. 20, 2011 With the approval of the Obama administration, an
electric car company that received a $529 million federal government loan
guarantee is assembling its first line of cars in Finland, saying it could not
find a facility in the United States capable of doing the work.(2.)
Obama administration to support offshore drilling in BrazilPosted by
Steve M on August 18, 2009 at 12:47 pm | Share via e-mailThe U.S. is
going to lend billions of dollars to Brazils state-owned oil company, Petrobras,
to finance exploration of the huge offshore discovery in Brazils Tupi oil field
in the Santos Basin near Rio de Janeiro. Brazils planning minister confirmed
that White House National Security Adviser James Jones met this month with
Guy with a brain... if what you said were true, yes that would be theft... I
guess, sort of... not really. The employeer, the state, still doesn't have to
employ them or have a relationship with the union. Reagon proved that with the
Air Traffic Controlers. They wanted more, he said no, they went on strike, he
fired them. Perhaps you forgot that little tidbit from history.So
no, it is not theft. The employer can choose to renegotiate the contract or
not. Employer still has the choice.Worf - exactly what jobs has
Obama sent overseas? You got something to back that statement back. Yes, there
was a new agreement with Korea, but the ink on that one has not even dried.
What else can you point to that "Obama" did to send jobs overseas?...
other than more radio head talking points.Is it your claim that when
"conservatives" were in office, jobs didn't go overseas? Or that
conservatives don't promote businesses like Walmart which is one of the world
biggest job exporters?And by the way, Romney I think has been
relatively consistent on this issue... so I don't see what the "news"
really is here.
As I read some of these comments I realize just how much the media controls how
we think. Headline: Romney Reverses Himself, Supports Anti-Union Law. Anyone who
has read the whole article would see that Romney, as far back as April, stated
that he supported the anti-union law on his website. He never said he did not
support the law. The article interpreted what he said to mean that. Because of
this misinterpretation Romney had to come forth the next day and clarify, once
again, that he supports the Anti-Union Law 110%, and then the media uses this
opportunity to call Mitt a flip-flopper. We the people are being plaid like a
fiddle by the media. Most media today is liberal and is scared to death that
Romney will be nominated. Just imagine Romney debating Obama on the
economy.he,he Don't buy into this stuff about Romney. Romney is the only
candidate we have that can pull the Independent vote and beat Obama in both a
debate and the election. We have to win this thing this time because our country
can't stand four more years of this administration.
Obama has created more jobs in foreign countries than here, and with the use of
our money.What has this got to do with Romney, companies,
millionaires, billionaires, banks, corperations, unions, flip-flopping, George
Bush, or price of tea in China?Focus on the problem and lets fix it.
If unions representing government employees have the ability to vote themselves
raises WITHOUT any input from the very citizens who pay their salaries (through
the taxation of the citizens/public) then what those unions are doing amounts to
nothing less than legalized theft.What do you liberals not
understand about that?THIS was the key issue in Wisconsin and it is
the key issue all across America in various forms: people must abandon the
ridiculous notion that they deserve something for doing nothing.
Hey Pagan and all of you other Romney-haters out there....Romney
didn't "reverse" himself. What an absolutely mis-leading title for
the article. And, gee, I'm suuuuure that title was just a coincident, wasn't
it?Give me a break.He didn't "reverse" himself
because he didn't say anything. HOW can you "reverse" yourself when
you don't say anything to begin with?Honestly, do you guys even
Mick - huge issue with your assumptions here. If it were true that Unions were
to blame for the domestic car makers problems, how is it that European car
makers, such as VW, now the number 2 or 1 car maker in the world, lives with
European social progressive governments, is unionized, and build next to none of
their cars in Asia. Same with BMW, Mercedes. The French were even able to buy
controling interest in Nissan.Horrible teachers are fired, check
your facts. Our competitors overseas do offer full retirement benefits (Asia
and EMEA) to their employees where our companies don't, and yet they compete.
The public does have a say. YOU elect the representatives of the
public who negotiate with the unions. These people who sign these contract are
hired by you and your neighbors. If they aren't doing their jobs to keep things
in balance, hold them responsible.It is about balance. Either side
having too much power ends badly. We saw it with companies doing very bad
things to save money, and we have seen it with unions too. Removing one side
from the table will not fix things.
The unions have pushed the jobs overseas. The union have made it so our car
companies are not competative. The unions make it so that we cannot get rid of
horrible teachers teaching our kids. They are able to bargain for more money
and better benefits at the expense of the tax payer and the consumer. Consumers
and tax payers are tired of paying for full retirements after 30 years of work
until they die. Private sector employees are given retirement plans and full
benefits after they retire. When the public has a say at the
bargaining table, then I may support unions. Until then, they are a bane on our
Another example of Romney's finger in the air testing which way the wind blows.
He will say anything or do anything to win the Republican Presidential
nomination. I certainly hope the Republican Party cam yet come up with a
Republican Candidate with more integrity.
Re: CHS 85 | 11:05 p.m. Oct. 26, 2011 The liberal Democratic Mayor
of Chicago, Rahm Emanuel, is following the example the Governor and legislature
in Wisconsin and is turning up the heat on Chicago's unions. He has ridiculed
the practice of paying heavy equipment operators overtime just to get ready for
work. He's invited private trash haulers to square off against city crews to see
who does a better, cheaper job. And he's called out transit workers for getting
paid time off not only for their birthdays but for the day they landed their
@kanaka818For the same reasons that other workers belong to unions.
The union I belong to works to keep management from taking advantage of labor.
An example was when I was forced to work overtime for twenty hours in a pay
period. The amount of money I was paid was less than my normal hourly wage due
to a management loophole. The union filed a grievance for several of us and we
were awarded back pay for that time. That was one example. The
notion that every government worker is a fat, lazy, slob with no skills is very
outdated. Not every government worker sits behind a desk in a cushy office
drinking coffee. Many of us work shift work in dangerous, highly skilled
professions requiring advanced degrees and years of experience. Unions insure
that safety regulations are met, overtime is paid properly, shifts are fairly
divided among the workers. Those are the same issues that private company
unions deal with.
Re: Utah Blue Devil 8:57 pmI'm so confused. Where's Stockton ???
doesn't believe government servants are the same as skilled craftsmen, teachers
and first responders. You say they are. In any event, just why does anyone
working for a government, national or local, need to join a union?
Re: Where's Stockton??? 7:16 pmWow, must have struck a nerve.
Four misspelled words in your response. Although your sentence structure is
somewhat questionable, by your explanation, you apparently don't equate
government servants with skilled craftsmen, teachers and first responders.Think DMV, Tax Collectors Office, Business Permit Office, etc., etc.
Aren't these goverment servants very similar to the job descriptions of bank
tellers and bank customer service reps? Why do goverment servants need unions
and not bank employees?
kanaka818 - you ask "Since when are government servants "skilled"
workers?"Oh I don't know... since they keep several million
travelers safe as they cross the country each day at 30,000 feet in several
thousand flights...Oh perhaps those people who come to accident
scenes and extract the injured and get them safely to medical treatment...Or perhaps those guys thta dropped into a foreign country and took out a
terrorist... I would call them skilled.Or the guys when I was on a
cruise and a passender had a heart attack - who flew in and hovered over an
ocean liner at sea that was still moving and extracted the poor man... very
skilled.I would even wager just a few of the police in your area,
fire fighters, rangers, teachers, professors, researchers, judges, prosecutors
who send bad people away... all skilled. Even the people who do work you look
down on like engineer highways and build roads - pretty skilled.The
arrogance of conservatives, looking down on those who work to keep our lives
safe as "unskilled" is probably one of the biggest reasons I can't
associate with that crowd. Arrogance isn't attractive on anyone.
Mitt, Mitt, Mitt, your flip flopping is now legendary.
kk818...You need to reread...where did I put skilled "workers" and
government servents as being one and the same. I believe I inserted the word
teachers in between and used the word craftsman instead of workers. You
obviously aren't able to properly distinguish the differences. At leasst pay me
the respect to qoute me correctly before you show your short sightedness.
But... just for argument then where would you put first responders skilled in
what they do... if not under government...or any workers in government that put
thier lives in danger for the public good...I suppose you think of only
congressmen and senators and other elected officials...what about the guys who
ensure that you have electricity or running water or clean your streets or pick
up your garbage...You don't think that they need representation too or do you
think that people like you should just treat them as pions as well.
"Obama reverses himself, supports other countries:(1.) By
MATTHEW MOSK, BRIAN ROSS (@brianross) and RONNIE GREENEABC NEWS and iWATCH
NEWS Oct. 20, 2011 With the approval of the Obama
administration, an electric car company that received a $529 million federal
government loan guarantee is assembling its first line of cars in Finland,
saying it could not find a facility in the United States capable of doing the
work.:(2.) Obama administration to support offshore
drilling in BrazilPosted by Steve M on August 18, 2009 at 12:47 pm |
Share via e-mailThe U.S. is going to lend billions of dollars to
Brazils state-owned oil company, Petrobras, to finance exploration of the huge
offshore discovery in Brazils Tupi oil field in the Santos Basin near Rio de
Janeiro. Brazils planning minister confirmed that White House National Security
Adviser James Jones met this month with Brazilian officials.Romney
flip-floping? Isn't this a flip (from our country to another)?
People aren't very wise when picking leadership, and history proves this. Obama
has given billions to other countries and helped build their economy with our
American money. Created jobs abroad, while causing hatred here. As a country,
we're broke, but the spending continues, and nobody cares.Nobody
seems upset at this? Unbelievable! All we can do is criticize Romney and blame
Bush for evberything?
Re: Where's Stockton???-5:42 pmSince when are government servants
Politics is a flip flop profession...It wasn't that long ago thar Democrats were
the conservatives and republicans were the liberals especially in the South
Seer...first of all bank tellers are not skilled craftsman, teachers. government
servants or first responders...That's a major difference that obviously you
don't understand. The banking industry has never been a unionized trade. I
really don't think you need to worry about being forced into collective
bargaining...and Vocal Local...just so you know... if you feel that
you are being paid sufficiently for whatever it is that you do...it's more than
likely that prevailing wage laws have a lot to do with it...and Unions
predominatly are responsible for those prevailing wage laws in most areas of the
country... and without those prevailing wage laws your standard of living most
likely would be far less than it is...so you might want to reconsider what you
This will definately cost him. Too bad... he could have made some good ground
by supporting the working class...now he's...going to be tossed into the fishy
smell with all the other elitists who will sell this country even further down
If Romney is the best republican candidate Obama will have no trouble winning
"A Fox News poll released Wednesday shows support for Cain has quadrupled
among GOP primary voters since late August."This plus the
latest data on income distribution ought to alarm Utah voters. The Republican
Party is not your friend. Mitt Romney can do the country little good by going
the Goldwater route.
I didn't see anywhere in the article where Romney said he was
"against" the Ohio measures. Just more of the media, and apparently
most people on these comment boards, engaging in the type of "gotcha"
journalism and dishonest characterizations that seem to dominate the dialogue
today. Take a nuanced or vague statement, blow it up to the very most extreme
possible caricatured interpretation, and create a false controversy to stir up
the fan base.Although I fear an avalanche of inane, irrelevant, and
out-of-context headlines in response, a perfect example is Pagan's remark
"Zero to 110% in 24Hours." Where was the "Zero?" It did
not exist in the first place. Just another wildly dishonest exaggeration to
characterize someone in the most negative manner possible.Disappointing that Huntsman feels the need to engage in the same type of
dishonest exaggeration, pandering, and "gotcha" politics.
Good for Mitt!!!
the perception and argument of Mitt as a flip-flopper is only going to be
strengthened by this.
The wealthy owners and overpaid executives of corporate America/Wall Street have
exported US jobs overseas (where they exploit workers without blinking an eye)
and are pocketing record profits and bonuses, all at the same time we have near
10% unemployment, even more under-employment, and a fragile, depressed
economy.And some of you die-hard Romney supporters are willing to
swallow this kind of rhetoric, tap-dancing, flip-flopping nonsense?If ever I had any respect for Romney remaining (and admittedly, there was
some), it is now completely gone.He had his wealth handed to him on
a silver platter, lives a lavish, wealthy lifestyle, and takes companies apart
so he can cut jobs and export them to foreign places where they exploit workers.
Romney has no clue what common Americans are struggling with.He is
the second-to-LAST person who needs to be in the Whitehouse (Donald Trump is the
LDSC 3:01 would appear to make sense until or unless one is aware that Mitt had
ALREADY gone on the record for union busting in JUNE. That means that this
week's play isn't just a flip, but a RE-Flip to support something that looks as
though it's going down in Ohio. My guess is that Mitt didn't wish to be tied to
a loser and played dumb until caught disavowing what he was supporting in June.
It doesn't sound too presidential, does it?
Ute Alumni... could you please explain your comment beyond a silly talking
point"unions are run like the mafia. o to go. stop union
thuggery."How are they run like the Mafia. While WORKING my
way through college, I worked for UPS, unloading trucks at 5 am until time to go
to class. During that time, I was a Teamster. UPS and the Teamsters have an
excellent working relationship where both groups are succeeding not at the
others expense.At no point was I forced to join the union, nor was
my job conditional on membership in the union. I was never made to feel I had
to become a member, and actually wasn't for my first year and a half. I was
able to put myself through college and support my family at the time.No you are going to have to come up with a lot more then a Limbaugh style
rhetoric to convince me otherwise. Have you actually worked a union job before?
How is it you have come to be so knowledgeable about how unions work.I stand ready to learn from your experience - not silly campaign slogans.
Liberal Chicago City Mayor Rahm Emanuel has ridiculed the practice of paying
Chicago's heavy equipment union operators overtime just to get ready for work.
Seems that even the liberals are getting the message that they can't keep
supporting staggering unchecked public unions.Looks like Wisconsin
was right when they put a collar on public union employees in their state. This
is not good news for Obama's re-election hopes in 2012.
Not having a position one day and then having it the next isn't flip flopping,
or even a flip. If Romney had said he was for Unions one day and
then against the next, you'd have a flip. His response, the day
before, was of one who hadn't made up his mind on the issue yet. He was prudent,
not letting slip an un-considered response. After, I am sure, some discussion
with his advisers, he presented his position today.His actions were
Presidential. Not the rash off the cuff remarks the other candidates seem to
spill forth and eat later.
'With every promise the Obama made during the campaign that now has been
broken...' - Eddie | 2:49 p.m. Oct. 26, 2011 Promise: *'Obama
HRC Speech: "I Will End Don't Ask, Don't Tell," Says President Obama'
- By CHRISTINE SIMMONS - Huffington Post - 10/10/09Delivery:*'Obama signs 'don't ask, don't tell' repeal' - By Pauline Jelinek - AP -
Published by DSnews - 12/22/10 Promise:*'Obama to pull combat
troops from Iraq by August 2010' - CNN - 02/26/09Delivery:*'Last U.S. combat brigade leaves Iraq' - By Rebecca Santana - AP - Published
by DSNews - 08/19/10Heck... *'Obama announces total Iraq
troop withdrawal' - By Ben Feller - AP - Published by DSNews - 10/21/2011 *We have been waiting for this moment: Libya confirms Gadhafi is dead
MSNBC 10/20/2011 *'Osama bin Laden Killed: 'Justice Is Done,'
President Says' - By DEAN SCHABNER - ABC News - 05/01/2011'Osama bin
Laden, hunted as the mastermind behind the worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil,
has been killed, President Obama announced tonight.' What 'promises'
are you talking about...?
With every promise the Obama made during the campaign that now has been broken,
that would make him the ultimate Flip-flopper.
Flip-and-FlopI'm reminded of an old TV show -- "To Tell
the Truth"Several guests were invited to flip-flop and
out-right lie if need be to fool the Panelists and Television audience.At the end of the Televison show, the Host asked the catch phrase:"Will the REAL [Mitt Romney] please stand up!" Like
Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley taught us i his book -- "Standing for
Something"It's all about Integrity -- not "I'll say or do
anything to get elected".Including compromising on your
convictions.That's all I want.No more games, no more messing
around.Oh and BTW - may the best Man/Woman win.
Mitt Romney may need to fire much of his staff if he wants to be President.
Catering to the far right and being anti-union is a sure way to make Obama a two
term President. He should have stayed with his own feelings as expressed the
I am anti-union and pro-worker. Unions have proven to raise unemployment and to
stall the progress of hiring. Also they raise prices for everyone-leading a net
drop in income for everyone else whether rich or poor. If you are going to help
workers forming a union is the worst way to go about it.With that
said I don't like laws the prohibit unionization. I don't think it's right to
forbid any group from banding together to argue their interests in a non-violent
matter. However unions rarely stay together unless laws are in place that force
unionization or that penalize non-union workers. To me to force employees to
join a union if they want to work goes against all principles of freedom this
country stands for. I am all-for eliminating such laws and some of the changes
being proposed by Republicans are not to prohibit unions but to prohibit forcing
unionization on government employees.
I bet Pagan has never changed his mind about anything over a 24 hour
We all must be made aware of what will happen should the Republicans get their
way....Will we revert to the "sweat shop" type conditions for
workers that were the norm in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century?
This would include very long hours, six day a week schedules, no OSHA or other
regulations for a workers safety, no time off, no vacation, no benefits of any
kind.One could be fired at a whim. Workers would again risk their lives
each day at their job.Is this what the Republicans are working towards? It
certainly is sounding more and more to be the case.
I used to think Unions hurt Corporate America, and sometimes I think they do.
But Romney was my only hope for a Republican who understood the LDS opposition
to greed and to lft the poor. I have a Union job, although I'm not a member, and
I can tell you that the Corporation I work for cares nothing for those whose
checks they glean in order to buy that third an fourth home. We work
hard, making the food you eat, and we barely make ends meet, the Union
representatives are all that has stood between complete poverty while the rich
CEO's grind upon our faces.The rich combinations who control their
own wages and how much you pay for your food (I'm talking about Kraft, Hostess,
all) probaboy care nothing for you either, and by bankrupting us they will
bankrupt many of you too....someone needs to investigate, and so far the Unions
are ths only ones to stand against it. I'm very disappointed that
Mitt would support this.
unions are run like the mafia. o to go. stop union thuggery.
The unions have gone WWWAAAAAAY past doing any good for their members. Much
like a pendulum that swings past its midpoint, the unions now are bordering on
thuggery and extortion. Who ever heard of a job that had to pay union
dues.....HAVE TO PAY? Let it be a choice....are we not all for choice? Do not
force me to pay a union due just to be a bank teller if I choose not to. I
might as well raise my hand and say I want to be a democrat, because that is
exactly what is happening. My dues would go to the democratic party.......and
OBAMA. NO thank you!
I honestly have no idea what Romney believes on any issue, other than he
believes he should be president. Is there any issue on which he has maintained a
consistent position over the years? Or does he always say whatever it takes to
win the election that he is currently contesting?
All though most working people do not belong to unions; the improved working
conditions and benefits the unions have created are the bench mark for non-union
workers.Big business and their political parties will do everything
they can do to reduce or eliminate these working conditions. Workers are just
are just a thorn in their side. If you are a person who has to work
to provide for your family; know how your candidate feels about YOU. Republicans have no love affair for workers. CEO's and stockholders always
come first. An Independent point of view
Romney is clearly anti labor and anti the working man.
'Romney reverses himself, supports anti-union law' - Title 'FAIRFAX,
Va. A day after he refused to endorse an Ohio ballot measure that limits public
employee union rights, Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney said
Wednesday that he is "110 percent" behind the effort.' - Article Zero to 110% in 24hours. Romney just made every person who
claimed he's a flip-flopper.... right.