donn LDS4 said, 1 Cor. 10:29 denounces using ones morals to justify
infringing upon the rights of others. Should believers have voted for prop.8?The exercise of ones freedom is to be governed by whether it will be
bring glory to God.LDS4I don't recall 1 Cor. 10:29 having a
footnote stating that an exception is made to allow the freedom of others to be
infringed if it brings God glory. That logic promotes theocracies. It has lead
to Saudi Arabia banning Bibles and Christian churches because banning them
brings Allah glory. How can we condemn the torture of Christians and the
burning of churches in Egypt when the radicals are simply glorifying Allah in
doing those things? The rights of those Christians can be infriged if it
glorifies God. Correct?The problem with many people of faith when
it comes to wanting to outlaw sin is that they have a hard time being logically
consistent when they are in the minority.
LDS4 said, 1 Cor. 10:29 denounces using ones morals to justify infringing upon
the rights of others. Should believers have voted for prop.8?The
exercise of ones freedom is to be governed by whether it will be bring glory to
God.Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to
sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who
suffer...(Jude 1:7 NIV)
donn RE;LDS4, Why are heterosexuals given "special rights"?Have you ever heard of the The Adamic covenant? Divine directive for
mankind to reproduce and inhabit the entire Earth. Adam and Eve not Adam and
Steve.Jesus said, For this reason a man will leave his father and mother
and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh(MT 19:5)St. Paul ... the husband of ONE wife, ... (Titus 1:5,6 NIV) LDS4I am ONLY refering to secular rights granted by our secular
government based on secular criteria serving a secular purpose. When a group of
people are given rights that only they can use, those are "special
rights". Same-sex couples don't get the 1000+ perks/rights/benefits
offered by the federal government to married people. those are "special
rights" just for straights.I SINCERELY appreciate you
referencing scripture in your response. As someone who values scripture,
perhaps you can help me. No one else has. prior to Prop.8, gays in CA had the
secular right to marry. 1 Cor. 10:29 denounces using ones morals to justify
infringing upon the rights of others. Should believers have voted for prop.8?
RE;LDS4, Why are heterosexuals given "special rights"?Have
you ever heard of the The Adamic covenant? Divine directive for mankind to
reproduce and inhabit the entire Earth. Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.Jesus said, For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be
united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh(MT 19:5)St.
Paul , Appoint Elders in every town as I directed you if anyone is above
reproach, the husband of ONE wife, and his children are believers and not open
to the charge of debauchery) or insubordination. (Titus 1:5,6 NIV)
AVOR.. the state is not taking freedom away from anyone... just not
endorsing them. .. we are equally free and the law protects this. LDS4Freedoms arent removed, but state granted perks are. Youd scream bloody
murder if the IRS took away the 1000+ perks from LDS couples despite no freedoms
being harmed. Government must treat all equally.AVORThe state
is not denying people heterosexual marriage. You are just as entitled to the
same state recognition as everyone else by this premise.LDS4Christians in Saudi Arabia ask the state for the right to worship in public.
The Saudis say that they already have that right if they choose to become
Muslims. Choosing to be Christian and choosing a homosexual marriage over a
heterosexual one are both choices. No rights are harmed. Right?AVORWe are equally free, not equally entitledEquality is not about 'what
you get from others' but about your equal right to make your life what you will.
LDS4Agreed, but the government is required to treat all equally,
hence Equal Protection. There are no 2nd class citizens and none are more equal
than others as you are advocating.
lds4gaymarriage,A pro-family state is compatible with democracy and
individual freedom. Liberalism has twisted "Equal protection" to claim
otherwise, but this is a deception.Interpretation 1 - "The law
must equally protect freedom for all citizens"I addressed this
in my comment regarding how the state is not taking freedom away from anyone...
just not endorsing them. The point, is that we are are equally free and the law
protects this. But others recognizing you has nothing to do with your
freedom.Interpretation 2 - The premise that "The law must give
equally to everyone"First, this point is invalidated as the
state is equally serving all Americans this service already. The state is not
denying people heterosexual marriage. You are just as entitled to the same state
recognition as everyone else by this premise.Second, I and other
conservatives would disagree with this interpretation of the law either way,
making your argument again less effective. We are equally free, not equally
entitled. Equality used to mean that, but liberalism or progressivism has been
twisted to mean marxism. Equality is not about 'what you get from others' but
about your equal right to make your life what you will.
@VoR;"No one is stopping you and your individual liberties when
WE DECIDE that WE aren't going to give it our stamp of approval.""I simply don't endorse you.""State recognition
does not take any freedom away ..."---Unless the
government stops recognizing and providing benefits for marriages of
heterosexual Citizens, then the government has no business refusing to
recognize/provide benefits for marriages of GLBT Citizens.We TOO are
Citizens of this country. We too pay taxes. Equal protection under the law
entails EQUAL treatment of ALL Citizens, regardless of their sexual orientation,
race, religion, etc.Your "approval" isn't necessary. The
CONSTITUTION says that Equal Protection Under the Law IS the law of the land -
with or without YOUR endorsement."But the state belongs to ALL
of us, not just gays or liberals" -- EXACTLY!!!!It belongs to
US TOO. You can't say that and then turn around and say: "But you don't
get the protections of the state because WE don't endorse you." That, sir, is the ultimate in hypocrisy. "I'll take the benefits, but
you don't get any", "I get recognized, but you can't".We are American Citizens and we DESERVE equal protection and recognition.
Ranch, you stated "Liberty and Freedom belong to ALL of us, not the
State."I agree, completely. However, nothing is taken when the
people decide to not recognize your private institution.You can live
your life, have a private marriage ceremony, and so on. No one is stopping you
and your individual liberties when WE DECIDE that WE aren't going to give it our
stamp of approval.A lack of "State recognition" does not
takes away someone's right to be free. If the people of America voted not to
accept Mormon marriages, that's one thing. Invading Mormon homes, raping, and
murdering, etc. (which historically has happened) then YES, freedom is
infringed. Hospital visitation is a freedom issue I support; but state
RECOGNITION isn't. However, such issues are not legally inseparable. I simply
don't endorse you. I don't take anything away.State recognition does
not take any freedom away that you inherently have by birth. WE ordained OUR
government. We own an equal share in this government. When gays constantly try
to invalidate my vote, they seek to take away what belongs to me.Freedom is yours. But the state belongs to ALL of us, not just gays or
@PaganI'm not sure why you would expect someone to support what they think
is immoral. Politicians should not be supporting things they don't believe are
right to get votes, that is not ethical in my book.
A voice of Reason It may not be equal to say 'one person gets this from
the state and another gets less' but we don't live in a country where everyone
gets dished the same thing...LDS4What happened to "Equal
Protection of Laws"? "Full Faith & Credit"?Why
are heterosexuals given "special rights"?Didn't we LDS
suffer when others denied us "Equal Protection of Laws"?Why the double standard?
@VoR;Liberty and Freedom belong to ALL of us, not the
Gay marriage is not a right. And I shall prove it-State recognition
for:* traditional marriage only* gay couples only* any
combination of people* my wanting to marry anything, including my
mailboxorState not recognizing anything and staying out
of it.-------The fact that the state could choose not to
be involved at all- the fact that this is even an option PROVES that state
recognition is not a right, but a choice of the state. It may not be equal to
say 'one person gets this from the state and another gets less' but we don't
live in a country where everyone gets dished the same thing... we live in a
country where people are free to CHOOSE what THEY do, what they vote, and so
on.State recognition is the PEOPLE's to give. Freedom to act is not
being prohibited here. But there is no such freedom as "You must sign a
document acknowledging me" as that is forcing someone ELSE.I
ask liberals this:The founding fathers didn't agree that it was a
right. So how do you justify to them that their own document protected it. It
didn't protect it then, so why now?
ABout 20 years ago there was a student at the Univesity of Utah named Rocky
O'Donovan. He was a Quaker. I know about this because he was active in
protesting the first Gulf War. He openly said that we should not go to war
because Jesus taught us to love. It was his religion and it did enter into
politics.When there was a draft Quakers were allowed to be
conscientous objectors because their beliefs did not permit them to go to war.
I think that was fine. Otherwise we would have had to force people to choose
between their religion and penalties such as jail.It is a way to be
inclusive. I think that they should do the same in New York.And for
the gays here who look down on religions, Rocky O'Donovan was also the president
of the Lesbian and Gay Student union.
If Ms. Belforti has religious objections to marriage equality for Gay couples,
my advice to her is simple: DON'T marry someone of the same sex, and politely
decline any invitations to Gay weddings that you receive. But you do NOT have
the right to deny service to someone who is acting in accordance with the law!
What she essentially is doing is forcing OTHER people to abide by HER personal
religious beliefs.Part of Ms. Belforti's job description is to issue
marriage licenses to couples who are legally qualified to obtain them. If she is
unable to fulfill her job requirements, she needs to find a new line of work.
'Hopefully she is reelected.' - Belching Cow | 9:47 a.m. Oct. 26, 2011 When she starts openly discriminating against her own constiuency...? Unlikely. I said this to Bob Bennett's office before he
failed to get a nomination... 'Why would I support you, if you do
not support me?'
It seems to me, this Lady feels that since she was elected as city clerk- she
also has become the town's Arbriter on what is a Biblical or not. and as such
what job functions she as a city employee will and won't do While
the Bible is silent on the issue of gay-marriage. It is not on the issue of
divorce. To be consistent Biblically, Does she not ask the heterosexual couples
applying for a marriage license if they were once divorced. Jesus was against
divorce with some caveats. Therefore, to be consistent she should also have the
town deputy do this job function also.
Wish I could cast a vote for Rose. Always refreshing to see someone stand up
for what is right. Hopefully she is reelected.
By asking that couples make an appointment, she is inconveniencing ALL couples
so that her religious beliefs could be accomodated. How many LDS have taken
jobs requiring them to work on Sunday and then simply told the employer that
they won't work Sundays because of their faith? Probably few if any. they
simply don't take the job. This lady should quit.She definately
shouldn't ask the government to pay a deputy extra to do part of her job. If
she paid the deputy's salary and benefits, she'd get more sympathy, but she is
asking the taxpayers to pay extra so that her beliefs could be accomodated.
She's also asking that the public be inconvenienced by asking that couples make
appointments rather than coming in when they want.She may feel that
she is right religiously, but she couldn't be more wrong as a civil servant.
That should be obvious. If you can't do the job based on your beliefs, then
forego the job."There are too many references in the Bible that
say this is not right."---Does she issue licenses to
those who are living together prior to marriage? Sinners!How about
those eating shellfish?Or those wearing mixed fibers?Or
those who have committed murder?Or thieves?Which sinners
are welcome and which sinners aren't?Does she get to pick and
choose?==========@Clarissa;Please explain how
marriage is bad for GLBT couples? If it is good for heterosexuals it is good
for homosexuals as well.Where in any scripture is discrimination and
bigotry listed as a value?
I'm glad I don't live in New York. I have no desire to ever have to deal with
this conflict. I have no desire to be cruel, but it would be emotionally painful
for me to give out something to someone I thought was bad for them. I'm proud of
those people mentioned who quit their jobs rather than compromise their values.