Swords sometimes swing two ways. While many of us believe that the good pastor
is wrong about Mormons he really isn't wrong about voters, candidates and others
discussing ideology and a candidate's fidelity to ideological principles he is
identified with. Our key test is whether the ideology respects the Constitution
and the Bill of Rights. There are ideologies in the world today that give our
sacred founding documents no standing under God and we must always feel free to
point that out and demand a reconciation from the candidate.
To Freedom Always Rings True: For one what Joseph Smith cited came from the
Lord Jesus Christ not by man himself. What Jeffress said came strickly as an
opinion of the man and the religion.I wonder what you would do if
Christ stood before you and cited the same thing to you as this: "This
people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips;
but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for
doctrines the commandments of men." Would you feel the same or would you
act as Joseph Smith acted.
"Where did they find this guy?" Catholic League president Bill Donohue
asks. "When theological differences are demonized by the faithful of any
religion never mind by a clergyman it makes a mockery of their own religion.
Rev. Jeffress is a poster boy for hatred, not Christianity."The
same can be said about Joseph Smith then. Let me quote him for you Donohue:"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all
wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an
ABOMINATION in his sight; that those professors were ALL CORRUPT; that: they
draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach
for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny
the power thereof."Referring to another church as a cult makes
Jeffress a poster boy for hatred and not Christianity but referring to all
religions including Catholics as an abomination, calling their professors
(including Donohue) corrupt and saying he has a form of Godliness but denies the
power thereof isn't?Please explain to me why Jeffress was uncivil
and hateful while Joseph Smith wasn't.
This is a RE to the repeated assertion by DN evangelicals that LDS aren't
Christian becuase they accept Deification. From FAIR article:The Christian Doctrine of DeificationEdward T. Jones
Irenaeus: "We are not made gods from the first, but first men,
then gods Polycarp, himself a disciple of the apostle St. John... this they
regard as a point beyond dispute, as one of those fundamentals which no one who
calls himself a Christian dreams of denying. From early Church
Fathers man is a creature who has received a command to become God. Basil: Man
received order to become God.Crawford Knox "virtually all the early
Church Fathers taught deification. French Jesuit Rondet wrote [deification] is
found in all the Fathers, was the universal teaching of the Catholic Church and
her Fathers. most central theological theme of the patristic tradition
fundamental axioms for the early Church Fathers.Joyce the Fathers of the Church
from the earliest times with one consent take the apostles words [of II Peter
1.4: participate in the divine nature] in their literal sense. There is no
question of any figurative interpretation. They do not hesitate to speak of the
deification of men.
Good and honest people, who set good examples but still show they are human are
those that withstand the test of time. Those that spout hateful rhetoric will be
The far/extreme right is becoming more and more extreme. Extreme right ideology
does not match-up with Mormon doctrine. Mormons needed to be weary of slipping
into the extreme right and the thinking that this is in line with their beliefs.
The LDS Churchs recent statement on immigration is a good example of how the
Church believes in a Christ like approach to politics. Mormons be weary of the
far right, they are not your friends. They just want your vote.
Fools make feasts and wise men eat them. I think that's how the old saying went
if not correct me.
To those who don't feel that Joseph and Brigham wouldn't recognize the Church
today. You are wrong! Not only do the recognize it but they would jump for joy
and probably have on the other side of the veil. They relish in the knowledge
that all of the prophesy that Joseph Smith said about the Church has come to
fruitation in more ways than one.As some have said before and I will
reinterate, the Caravan moves on. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints will continue to grow at a pace that others just can't understand. Those
that leave will be replaced by two or three who will be as steadfast as those
who crossed the plains into the Salt Lake Valley. The time will come in many
parts of this country will the doors to the chapels will be open twenty-four
hours as they enter the waters of baptism.
The good reverend hit on a small piece of a much larger chord. Mormonism is a
cult. So is whatever religion he's selling. It's all cultish. The pot got caught
calling the kettle black. but they're both the same in the end. Religion is the
ultimate untouchable scam. My hope is that someday we get it out of politics.
Where Jeffress went wrong first was in appearing, in his capacity as Pastor of
First Baptist Church of Dallas, to endorse anyone in a primary election. Jesus,
as another candidate had put it in 2008, was neither a Republican nor a Democrat
and was smart enough never to run for office in Texas. I dont know how well
Pastor Jeffers really knows Rick Perry. Pastors must be free to
speak out on issues. The churches led the fight to abolish slavery and then to
pass the very imperfect but long-overdue Civil Rights Act of 1964 to combat the
lingering residue of slavery that was contrary to my belief in, among other
things, free enterprise. The Constitution, which, though not
inspired in the sense of scripture and imperfect, I believe to have been a gift
from God to this historically exceptionally blessed nation, prohibits religious
tests for office and grants full religious liberty to all, including the
atheists who I think have made a far bigger leap of faith than any believer in
God. Thomas Jeffersons deist theology eliminated miracles and was peculiar even
in his day, but he made a good President for the United States.
I appreciate these articles coming forward. It's nice to know that though some
may not agree with some of the doctrines and principles in the church, there are
at least some who are willing to stick up for us.
I've never found evidence that any group is "Christian". It seems to
me that it's not something you can achieve by joining, you have to do it on your
I think it's interesting that there is a comparison between Mormonism and
Muslims in this article. That could be another story that should be studied.
I have never seen any good come from being critical of anyone. I have yet to
meet anyone that is perfect, but when we go out of our way to condemn them
before the masses, we often end up being condemned ourselves. Even striking
back when offended does little good. Its always best to press forward and live
the best way we can and let our actions testify of our true character.
When I first heard about Pastor Robert Jeffress on fox news Father Jonathan
Morris a fox new contributor said that voters should consider if Romney Church's
doctrine supports the constitution. He also that that the LDS church does not
baptize in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. I asked a
close family friend who is a catholic priest and he said the Holy Ghost is what
they used to refer to as the Holy Spirit. What I learned after I did some
research is that as I had baptized my 6 children I the words "and of
the" in the LDS baptismal prayer represent LDS doctrine that Father and
the Son and the Holy Ghost are separate Gods. Also Matthew chapter 14 clarifies
the relationship of the Father and the Son. Father Hendrick my friend the
catholic priest thought that my church did not believe Jesus Christ is God I
told him that Jesus Christ has all Gods Power and is a God. It is because of the
Arian Heresy of the 2nd and 3rd Centry which refers to Jesus Christ as being
inferior to God. Father Jonathan Morris statement on Fox news is misleading
Joseph, Brigham and the original founders would not recognize modern Mormonism
from the one they received, taught and sacrificed to send missionaries out
with.They spoke plain, owned their uniqueness, didn't care about
public opinion or approval and lived what they believed. That was the honesty
of my grandparents, too. They would be as shocked as I am to visit the church
website and tey to make sense of when everything changed to now trying to be
accepted as part of the mainstream.They didn't care less about being
labeled a cult, a false religion, racist or "adulterous polygamists".
Two great-grandpas did their prison time and went right back to their plural
families. They lived separately, but their kids knew exactly where their
fathers were. Grandma was born in 1899 and answered my questions about racism
this way: We are not prejudiced against any soul. But we don't have to explain
Heavenly Father's commandments; we just have to obey them. You love everyone
and treat them fairly, and you'll be treated in kind.Living in
all-Mormon Idaho, they saw no persecution. But their example of strength served
me well. Oh, the good ole days.
My pioneer grandparents would croak at the abject ignorance of the modern LDS
postings here. Does anyone know their own history, doctrines, founders' quotes
in well-documented journals? Thankfully I still have my folk's
library: full of original source books and documentation, many now out of print.
"We don't teach/believe that any more". Oh really? How nice for you
not to have to explain to your friends why no black man could hold the same
priesthood as your white brothers, uncles, cousins. Why you couldn't date that
gorgeous guy in Speech class, because his skin-color proved something about his
"curse" that effected his temple worthiness...Do the
non-religious columnists, the comedian with four days expertise in Mormonism and
the Bible-only rejectors quoted in this article know that any new revelations,
given by SLC prophets, will nullify any previous doctrines they wish? It just
happens, that only those which cause a PR ruckus get rescinded. I'm 6th
generation Mormon, Daughters of the Utah Pioneers, so don't rewrite my
history.Any knowledgable Mormons here who will tell the world how
all 1830 creeds were described by their founding prophets? Does
"corrupt abomination" ring any bells?
It gets old getting slugged in the gut by those who don't believe as I (we) do.
Just as it is old being called a racist because I disagree with the
president. then when some of us bark back, some of the haters can't wait
to shout foul and point it out. In the end it doesn't change a
thing. The church is still true, and the president is still wrong on most
If what Mormons really believe is found anywhere besides the Bible, it is found
in the Book of Mormon, here is what the Book of Mormon tells us about Gods
Children:12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for
good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all
good;16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he
may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every
thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent
forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect
knowledge it is of God.
I believe Evangelicals are generally Christians. I try to love everyone.Sadly, some people are trained to post anti-Mormon propaganda on the DN
and elsewhere, trying to justify. Sometimes they pretend to be offensive LDS
etc.There are also many anti-Mormon websites claiming to teach us
what Mitt Romney and all Mormons "really believe." Several of these
quote Orson Pratt on Babylon (editing and leaving out his reference to John).
Ive oft discussed the semi-quotes posted by DN anti-Mormons(creeds brought
tortures etc)but not the Pratt quote. Saying Mitt and Mormons
believe something because someone LDS (including O.Pratt, BY etc) said it is as
unfair as saying present day Mormons all believe Gentiles are unclean because
their early Prophet, Peter believed it (before his vision); that all Protestants
"really believe" Catholicism is an "abomination" and
"blasphemy," "works" centered, etc because Luther said it;
that all Protestants hate Jews and LDS because they raped and sought
extermination, etc. Many opinions are given, and LDS Presidents have
clarified that the Abominable Church is not Catholics and Protestants. The BofM
definition is those torturing, attacking, etc the Saints. It could be some
Catholics, Atheists, Mormons, gaysetc.
In my opinion we're making much ado about little/nothing. Need we revisit Elder
McConkie's classic Mormon Doctrine? The original publication spoke of the
Catholic Church in very derogatory terms. Since revised, the original opinions
are still widely known. His final work, the six volume Messiah series, was
equally as divisive in its treatment of those who hold to a triune God. And
Elder Holland has politely derided, but derided nonetheless, this same Holy
Trinity concept in General Conference within the last few years.While I
strongly disagree with his opinion, I, for one, find it refreshing to listen to
a pastor not afraid identify those whom he believes are
misleading/misrepresenting the Savior's message. Too, I salute Elders McConkie,
Holland, and others who are willing to take a stand, no matter the feelings of
the PC crowd.
I don't believe any candidate should have to go on record as saying whether or
not they think Romney is a christian or if Mormons are members of a cult. I
think Romney should come out and ask that people stop asking his running mates
this question as a matter of principle. Personally, I don't think an "I
like Mormons" test is much better than Jeffress' "Is he an Evangelical
Christian?" test for political office.Mr. Jeffress' bigotry
certainly warrants the current outcry, but the solution is not to force other
public figures to weigh in on whether or not they think Mormons are Christians.
I would hope that a Cain, Paul, Gingrich, etc. have strong feelings that their
religious practices, or non-religious practices, are "right" and have
a strong commitment to making sure my feeling "right" about my
religion is equally protected. A person with no conviction of anything is far
less desirable in my opinion. My Evangelical, Catholic, etc. friends
are great friends because they believe they are "right" not in spite
of it. My anti-Mormon friends who don't believe in anything other than I am
"wrong" are harder to get along with.
None of the GOP candidates actually straightway gave a Definite clear answer as
to whether he/she thinks Mormons/Romney are Christians. They all evaded a direct
answer. Therefore, they all think that Romney at least is not a Christian.
SADLY. I can now remember one of the previous Conferences Subject that says
something like, Beware of the person behind the Smiling Face! No matter how
often you do good and forgive, you are not one of them.Joseph Smith at age
14, ONE YOUNG Boy, being harassed and said all manner of evils against him for
saying that he had seen God and Jesus Christ. Who started the FIRE of HATRED
right then, a Preacher! Now, over 14 milliom members worldwide, the Fire of
Hatred continues to linger. But, you know what, mostly when these BAD Preachers
and their BLind Followers, need to ROB a member of the church to stop him/her
from being a Shiny Star in Public. We, as members of the Church, MUST continue
to Counter these Recycled False accusations intended to deceive those seeking
for the truth,and to rob our members of their personal and public
accomplishments. Thank you Ruth.
@als Atheist:The "hypocrisy " to which you refer is not so:The big difference is when the attack is used outside of religious discussions
in a political forum as reason to reject any candidate of different belief than
yours. Most LDS (Mormons) would not withhold their votes from a candidate -
let alone attack him publicly - because he is an evangelical, in spite of
doctrinal differences. In fact, Mormons have frequently supported evangelicals
- but many evangelicals are unwilling to extend the same courtesy to LDS
Sarah Nichole,"He seems like a decent man who is only trying to do
what he feels is right for this country. Fair enough. I don't have to agree with
somebody's politics to like them as an individual." Sure sounds
fair to me. I don't know Senator Reid or Mitt Romney, but then I don't know
anybody. I sure would like to see Mitt Romney as President and Senator Reid as
MAJORITY leader - and Matheson as Speaker of the House. Then, if we could all be
open minded and, like the Channel 5 weatherman used to say, see it my way, I
could retire from posting comments.
@Pagan:"Cain now leads GOP pack..."Cain nay
lead the pack but one of his 999's won't fly... the one about 9 percent sales
tax. If the federal government gets into the business of taxing sales it will
not stop at 9 percent. It may start there but will continue to climb. It's
happened to most if not all federal taxing from FICA to income tax. I hope the
American voter figures this out before election day.The only way to
support a federal sales tax is to do away with and replace the federal income
Most of my Mormon friends on facebook haven't been very Christian-like when
talking about whether or not we're Christian...
FDRfan,While I don't agree with a single one of Brother Reid's
political views, and while I feel that some of his political manuevering may
have been less than completely honest (I could say the same for some of Brother
Romney's antics in the last election), I've never met him. I've never heard him
explain his reasoning behind those decisions. I don't have anything negative to
say about him or his character or his membership in the church. He's a son of
our Father in Heaven, and my brother, and we'd probably get along very well if
we were ever to meet - so long as we kept politics out of the discussion. ;)He seems like a decent man who is only trying to do what he feels is
right for this country. Fair enough. I don't have to agree with somebody's
politics to like them as an individual.
There are always going to be people with attitudes like Mr. Jeffress expressed,
but even negative publicity can turn to the Lord's advantage by prompting real
seekers of truth to find out answers for themselves. Several years ago, my
daughter crossed paths with someone like Rev. Jeffress, who was almost rabid in
his criticism of Mormons but of other churches as well. He advised brides in
his congregation not to go to a well known LDS seamstress in the area for
alterations to their wedding dress and warned one bride that if she did, God
would curse her and and she and her husband would never be able to have
children. The bride declined to follow his warning and told him so as they
stood before him on their wedding day. He then refused to perform the
ceremony. She and her groom invited their guests to follow them to another
location where a justice of the peace performed the ceremony. Curiosity
prompted them to seek out the missionaries, and they liked what they heard and
are now LDS.
Which is easier - getting Jeffress to say something nice about the Mormons or
Utah Republicans to say something nice about Brother Reid?
als Atheist | 6:22 p.m. Oct. 13, 2011Provo, UT Freedom of expression
also carries the responsibility for your comments. Many people of other
religions abhor bigotry and gratuitous insults. The criticism of Jeffress
doesn't imply a desire to censor him, only hold him accountable.
Jeffress' comments are a reflection of Perry and his philosophy. They have no
civility, tolerance or respect for those who do not share their personal
philosophy. It completely negates any claim Perry has to national leadership.
Thank you Rev. Jeffress and Mr. Perry for coming out of the closet.
While my son was is navy bootcamp he was the only LDS member in his
"ship". My favorite story he told me was of going to bed. He said
"Mom, no one understood what I was doing when I knelt to say my evening
prayers, but they respected that it was important to me and gave me reverance
and privacy during that minute. I, in return, did not understand their
worshipping ways, but knew of the importance it had to them and in return
granted them the respect it deserved." Many of his group asked questions,
and even teased about how many mothers did he have, but they respectfully
understood that in the end, everyone had the same desire, to pray and serve our
loving Lord. I suspect many were of the same belongs as Jeffress, let's not
judge all by his words. We all need to remember to be tolerant of one another.
Just a note: Instead of sitting on the DN boards, commenting on the re-hash of
the article, you should follow the link to the actual article and post your
@ David KingIt is very important to respond to these outrageous
attacks on the church. George W. Bush did not respond to the ridiculous
charges that he lied about WMD in Iraq. (I doubt that you can name a single
elected official at the national level who did not believe that Iraq had WMD
before 911.)Because GWB did not respond it was assumed that he could
not respond so today a majority believe the lie.A vigorous defense
is what is required. We should do this in a kind and gentle manner. We should
act like Christians as we defend our Christianity.If we do not defend
ourselves against these ridiculous charges most will assume that we cannot
defend ourselves against them. I have provided such a vigorous
defense many times. Usually the offenders come to understand that there is
substantial evidence supporting the LDS position and they stop the attacks.
Those who continue to attack marginalize themselves and nobody listens to them
any more.John Wayne said it best; "Stupid should hurt."
You left out CNN's Cooper Anderson showing 'mormon.org' on his show, repeating
twice the full name of the church ie The Church of Jesus Christ of Latte-Day
Saint and telling the pastor that they -mormons- hold Jesus as their saviour and
redeemer and that Jesus is the only way to return to our heavenly father,
something which seemed to put the pastor of guard a bit....then the pastor went
on to declare major religions like Budism and Hinduism to also be 'cults'..Seems we don't need to worry to much about this pastor as he is only
creating free publicity for the church and directing traffic to mormon.org
It's nice to see that some people who have been 'sleeping' for years about both
major political parties are beginning to take a little time to think. Political
parties are the tip of the iceberg of what is wrong, and why independent minded
persons will study the constitution to find answers that have very little to do
with either one of these parties. The Democratic parties' abortion blank is an
offense to God and anyone who reveres life, and the Republican's warlike view of
defense shows the hypocrisy of our 'Christian' nation.
'Much of what you see in the Catholic Church today doesn't come from God's word.
It comes from that cult-like pagan religion. Isn't that the genius of
Satan?'"That's pretty funny Jeffress. And exactly where does
the Baptist Church come from, uh, historically speaking? Wouldn't it be the
Catholics? Or didn't you read about the Reformation?
Growing up, I lived in a town that was a Christian-cooperative town with a good
number and variety of Christian faiths, even the "big" tent
evangelicals passing through town. Unfortunately, almost all of those churches
participated as Pastor Jeffress did last week and the publicity went to
everyone. Our not finished chapel was burned down by an arsonist and no one
ever followed up on the person that burned the chapel, even though the type and
make of vehicle in the parking lot that the ward organist identified as she was
leaving the chapel before the fire was started. Christianity is a broad term to
include many beliefs, spiritual, philosophical, activist, and educational, etc.
We are blessed in the United States to have freedoms in many forms. We
sometimes don't appreciate that fact as we go about our daily lives. God's
commandments from the scriptures are important to live, especially that we must
love one another as He loves us. Turn the other cheek is also important as we
go through this life dealing with people. We also have a government that has a
creed and constitution to provide for the common defense, including executive,
legislative and judicial.
this man strikes me as the proverbial Baptist preacher who bought a second-hand
car and found out he didnt have the vocabulary to drive it
I couldn't agree more with this article. Well done.
Re: als Atheist | 6:22 p.m. Oct. 13, 2011 "LDS are big proponents of
"religious freedom"... except for Reverend Jeffres' religious freedom
to declare what his religious beliefs are about Mormons"Can you
cite any specific examples of LDS members trying to deny Jeffress
"religious freedom"? Are you are suggesting the LDS shouldn't have
the right to disagree with his opinion?What SPECIFIC example(s) of
LDS hypocrisy regarding Jeffress can you point out?
Traditional Christianity has benefited greatly from Mormon Envy. Mormons
likewise benefit from Traditional Christianity's criticisms. If we're lucky
we'll get there together and someday both bow to the Supreme Being as brothers
and sisters in Christ, and look back at these skirmishes as ways in which God
provided us with opportunities to look inward and improve ourselves. I am grateful for this moment and the chance I have to share my LDS belief
that Christ is the father of my soul, the Redeemer of the world, and the only
way and means by which I may be saved in the Kingdom of God. I love Jesus Christ
for his infinite atonement, and hope that I may someday stand with others of
faith in his glory. I hope those of other faiths will look to the
LDS as well for the many good qualities we have been able to polish in the
deserts and reaching out to share that God is not dead, nor sleeping, but
actively working in the Spirit with us today--that the Family is one of God's
most core creations for the happiness of man, and that we are of divine
origin--children to the Almighty.
One thing I have thought about over the past several years is the idea that we
have to be politically correct.If one were to read the scriptures,
the five standard works, he would never find any instance in which the Lord (his
prophets or apostles) was speaking or behaving in a politically correct
manner.Why do we feel it is necessary to do so today?I'm
certain someone will reply that it is the "Christian thing to do." If
that were the case, was it not the Christian thing to do back in the day,
including during the Restoration when the Brethren spoke so boldly, as shown in
a post above?Seeing how we walk on eggs these days, I can't help but
think that we "have feared man more than God" (D&C 3:7). Will all
this political correctness come at a price?
Noodlekaboodle,A Jun 2011 poll shows 18% Republicans and 27 %
Democrats would not vote for a Mormon for President. Seem there are about 9%
points more Democrats that "hate" Mormons than Republicans. Seems the
Republican party is the lessor of the two evils than. The Republicans are more
supportive of having a Mormon president.
Why do we have to elevate any party above another. All of them, including
independent and splinter parties, have both honorable people and scoundrels. I
will never vote party line, I will always vote for whom I perceive as the best
choice based on character, ideas and competence. Political ideology
requires people to disregard political pragmatism for whatever a committee
decides. That might not always be best for the country.
@SUNNY ALL DAY Don't think for a minute that I am defending the
Republican party. It's just the lesser of two evils.
The bedrock philosophy of the modern Republican Party is that a powerful
corporate elite can buy their way into the government of The United States of
America and force that government to do its bidding.The glory will
be given to the Republican's forever and ever. It's too much like
that bad plan that didn't work.Strawmen, anyone?
"Democrats are the new big tent party. All I'm saying is think about it.
Because unlike the other party, we don't hate you for what you believe."I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. The entire democratic platform
is anti-God, anti-traditional family, anti-military, pro-abortion...It's
anti-everything that I stand for. I don't need to think about it.
I would hope my fellow LDS take this opportunity to make sure they are also ones
not doing offending to people of other faiths in our communities.
@Pagan"I have to ask, why does the LDS faith support the
Republican party, when it strikes me as obvious the Republican party is trying
to support ANYONE besides a Mormon candidate?"I can only speak
for myself here, but I'd be willing to bet many others in the church share my
sentiments.I believe what George Washington said about parties was
true. Any party is usually bad. Aside from the obvious social issues (gay
marriage, abortion, etc.) there is really one huge reason why I cannot support
the Democratic party. One of the primary beliefs of the church is
that the human mind cannot and should not be forced. Everyone must make up
their own mind and be responsible for their own life. This is a
gift/responsibility given to us from God. The bedrock philosophy of
the modern Democratic party is that a powerful government can take care of
people and their problems...and the ends justify the means. So liberty must be
sacrificed for security so that 'not one of them shall be lost, and the glory be
the Democrat's forever.' It is too much like another bad plan that didn't work.
Concerning the discussion between Riles and David King... I agree with David
King. If you want to show that people like Pastor Jeffress are wrong, dont do it
by pointing to their mistakes, do it by living a good life yourself. Teach by
Let's suppose that Governor Perry becomes the candidate for the Republican party
for President.He has refused to condem Pastor Jeffress comments.Will the voters of Utah get in line to vote for him even though he
refused to condem the Pastors comments?His refusal to condem the
Pastors comments speaks volumes for this candidates view point on the LDS
faith.If we support him after this it is misplaced loyalty in my
@grandpaJ:Great.Stick with people who want your vote,
want your money, and then want you gone, especially if you are a member of The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints allows abortion under very limited specific
circumstances.I support and sustain the Prophet.
Re: CougarBlue"Quotes from this article: "Last year,"
the website notes, "Rev. Jeffress said the Roman Catholic Church was the
outgrowth of a 'corruption' called the 'Babylonian mystery.' He continued, 'Much
of what you see in the Catholic Church today doesn't come from God's word. It
comes from that cult-like pagan religion. Isn't that the genius of
Satan?'"Has not the mormon church said much of the same in the
past. What is different about this. The mormon church can be as closed minded
and bigoted as this pastor has been. Sad on all sides sitting at the table
looking for spirituality.
I could be a Democrat if they didn't have the abortion plank. Abortion is the
worst crime against humanity and the fact that the party hides behind the lie
that they are supporting "choice" I will never vote Democrat. Abortion
is about power over another human being and has nothing whatsoever to do about
choice. So thank you but no thank you. Also, support of the unions must be
minimized. Unions are killing our economy
Quotes from this article: "Last year," the website notes, "Rev.
Jeffress said the Roman Catholic Church was the outgrowth of a 'corruption'
called the 'Babylonian mystery.' He continued, 'Much of what you see in the
Catholic Church today doesn't come from God's word. It comes from that cult-like
pagan religion. Isn't that the genius of Satan?'""Where
did they find this guy?" Catholic League president Bill Donohue asks.
"When theological differences are demonized by the faithful of any religion
never mind by a clergyman it makes a mockery of their own religion. Rev.
Jeffress is a poster boy for hatred, not Christianity."I find
it singularly amusing that the "so-called" reverend Jefferies would
call the beliefs of the Catholic church corrupted and yet he himself holds to
that standard of the trinity, which was developed at the council of Nice. Reverend you may now remove your foot from your mouth.
LDS are big proponents of "religious freedom"... except for Reverend
Jeffres' religious freedom to declare what his religious beliefs are about
Mormons.Mormons have the religious freedom to call Jeffress'
religion part of the "Great Apostasy"' and one of the daughters of the
"Whore of all the Earth", but Mormons refuse to respect Jeffres'
freedom to call Mormonism a cult.How does that hypocrisy work?
Noodle, I've had liberal friends whose only gripe against me in the world, WAS
my religion. We had interesting relationships, to be sure, so don't pretend that
libersl will just love LDS people because in many cases they don't.
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of
Babylon' . . . . And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy
ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches
will be sent down to hell with them." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255)"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of
the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil." (1 Nephi
14:10)"Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a
Prophet . . . is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ."
(Brigham Young, History of the Church, vol.7, p. 287)"[F]or
they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their
creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;
that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me,
they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness,
but they deny the power thereof.'" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith,
RE: Cats I think it is a good thing to have political principals.
One of the political principals I value is freedom of religion. I worry about
how freedom of religion is diminished or threatened when one religious faction
such as the "Christian right" is allowed such an enormous amount of
political power. The Christion right has demonstrated both its
ability and tendency to consign other minority religions to second-class status.
This is evident in the GOP's reluctancy to unequivically disavow Pastor
Jeffres' statements about the LDS church, and in the high number of Republicans
who will not vote for a Mormon candidate due simply to theological differences.
It is evident in the protests against the "9/11 mosque".I
am not asking Mormons to stop being Republicans. I simply said that it was time
for us LDS members to "re-evaluate our political allegiances". I've
voted for Republicans in the past, and I'm sure I'll vote for some Republicans
in the future. But I will not support any candidate or party that abandons the
principals I value, such as equality, compassion, and freedom of religion.
Pagan, your comment/question from 1:24 pm is probably the most intelligent thing
I've ever read from you. THe church officially supports no party. This is why
especially in Utah you have so many LDS members who are democrats. It happens
that nost member of the church align themselves and their political views with
conservativism because they feel it more closely resembles what they think is
right. (no pun intended) Some feel the democrats are more closely resembling
what they think is right. It's all about perspective. Plus, if you think about
it, would Democratic hero, JFK even be considered a liberal in today's society?
He was rather conservative by today's standards.
The response of kind and thoughtful persons of other religions brought tears to
my eyes. My hope is that I myself and my Mormon brothers and sisters will
humbly "turn the other cheek" when insulted and strive to live our
religion. Striking back defensively will not further our cause. Let's follow
the example of Elder Nelson and other humble, yet faithful, general authorities
of the Church.
Perry is toast, burnt toast. Now for Obama and his buddy Wright.
I said it when this story first broke. "Let him rave on that men shall know
him mad." from the Ten Commandments. It looks like I was right. Go figure.
Thanks to the open-minded non LDS. Also, let us not forget that not ALL Baptists
are filled with such hate. This guy is the exception, not the rule. (I hope)
I am LDS and I just don't know why a defense needs to be presented. We know
what we believe, and I personally don't give a hoot if nobody else believes as I
do, I know who my Savior is and it is Jesus the Christ..
Come on all ya'll mormon republicans. Look at this situation with both eyes
open. The party you support hates your religion, and thinks that because of your
"non christian" status you don't deserve to be on the same level as
them. Come join the Democrats, we don't mind if you disagree with us about
abortion and gay marriage. Notice how often Harry Reids gets criticized by the
dems for being LDS, oh wait, he doesn't. Ya thats right, us dems will vote in a
mormon as our leader in the senate and not blink an eye, even though Harry is
LDS. All i'm saying is the Democrats are the new big tent party. All i'm saying
is think about it. Because unlike the other party, we don't hate you for what
Screwdriver,I don't know what church you go to, but I've never heard
criticism of other churches. In a small Idaho town, it was LDS youth who
voluntarily built a Baptist church as a service project. Many LDS members helped
rebuild churches after Katrina and other disasters.You seem bitter
toward the LDS church, but please don't pull a Jeffress.
Dear Fender Bender: I always think it is so interesting when posters ask
Mormons to stop being Republicans because Evangelicals don't like us. Is the
point that we should all join a party we don't agree with and adopt principles
we don't agree with because a small faction in the Republican Party doesn't like
us? Evangelicals don't control the Republican Party and we don't have to agree
with them on everything in order to have common values and goals with regard to
our country. Just because a lot of Evangelicals are ignorant and
misguided about Mormons doesn't mean we should abandon our political principles.
We should, instead, work to educate these people about where they are wrong and
then work together for common goals.
David King | 11:06 a.m. Oct. 13, 2011 Layton, UT Elder
Packer's counsel was: "If you have been offended, forgive, forget it, and
leave it alone."================ And Christ himself
said; "turn the other cheek".So -- Are we going to be true
Christians, or are we going to continue to whine and play the martyr?
I wonder how rich this pastor has gotten from tithing his members have made and
if he would be a pastor if he was not paid?
@David King"The majority of these articles focus not on clearly
defining our beliefs, but on one statement by one pastor." AND "Can't
we ask if we are letting this bother us too much?"As the editor
of many the items you listed, I welcome you asking these questions. First, I
believe our coverage has not been about focusing on the statement but about
capturing the reaction. The reaction has come from the front pages of national
newspapers and a remarkably broad array of sources. Second, we continue to have
conversations about the number of articles we are posting on this issue: Is this
too much? Each day, I have felt we have rounded up stories, opinions and items
from around the country that provided fresh perspective. Third, I don't think
this is about a statement bothering some Mormons as much as it is about how
others feel about the statement, and about interest among many to hear what
others are saying. Thanks for reading and asking pertinent questions.
@RilesI appreciate your reply. I will try to give my personal answer (my
opinion) to some of your questions."I wonder how many of those
articles were produced by the Deseret News rather than just linked to other
sources"To be clear, a lot of them were not produced by the Deseret
News, but I think linking them still shows an inclination to keep the discussion
going."I'm not sure why, if you belong to the church, you would
be against this kind of publicity and public examination that will, in the end,
put the church in a more favorable light as we respond with dignity to
bigotry."Some of the responses I have seen have not been so
dignified. I've heard and read many statements referring to how
"stupid", "ignorant", or "crazy" Robert Jeffress
is. If this were the New York Times or CNN or some other newspaper my comments
may be very different. But as this is a Mormon-owned paper, and a lot of us
reading are Mormons, I think I can direct my comments to fellow members. How
many of us will vote for a Muslim? an atheist? These are importantcon't
@ Oh, please! | 12:52 p.m. Oct. 13, 2011 What about Obama's
predecessor & his Blues Brothers like quest?
Fender Bender | 12:24 p.m. Oct. 13, 2011, Well said!
With Rick Perry, Chris Christie and now Herrimen Cain... *NBC/WSJ
poll: Cain now leads GOP pack By Mark Murray NBC news 10/13/11
leading the polls. It's almost as if the Republican party is hoping for ANYONE
besides Mitt Romney. I have to ask, why does the LDS faith support
the Republican party, when it strikes me as obvious the Republican party is
trying to support ANYONE besides a Mormon canidate? I do not mean
this as an attack on the Mormon faith, just it's ability to function in national
politics with such obvious pre-concieved bias. Anyone?
I now find myself on the other side of the debate, I don't think I could ever
vote for a Southern Baptist, certainly not if they are as bigoted as Jeffress!
@David KingI wonder how many of those articles were produced by the
Deseret News rather than just linked to other sources. Regardless, I don't
think, in reading many of the articles that the focus is solely on Pastor
Jeffress' one-liner, but rather on the larger debate that was reignited by his
comments. Questions like, What constitutes a Christian?, Is it appropriate to
evaluate candidates on the basis of religion?, What is proper and improper
discourse between faith groups?, etc. are all vital areas of interest for many
in this country, not just Mormons, and have application to relations with just
about any other faith or affinity group. Instead of just condemning the
particular quote, many of the articles go on to examine these questions that
need to get aired out in the public sphere, not in backslapping, private
meetings between friends, where it's "okay" to be a little bigoted.
I'm not sure why, if you belong to the church, you would be against this kind of
publicity and public examination that will, in the end, put the church in a more
favorable light as we respond with dignity to bigotry. Just my 2 cents.
Bigotry has no place in America...all it does is bring our great nation down.
Shame on Rev. Jeffress for not understanding the larger Christian picture of
what America is all about. -- Nice article, I hope it makes its way to Dallas.
I think its time for us Mormons to do away with the phrase the honest in heart
which is found in our sermons and prayers. It is a holdover from the 19th
century and implies that any who differ with us or show no interest in our
message are, therefore, the dishonest in heart. We need to be
careful also of phraseology that implies salvational guarantees. The blessings
promised in temple ordinances and covenants are always conditional, and this
should be reflected in our wedding announcements and obituaries. Evangelicals
are, in their own minds, the only people on the planet guaranteed salvation.
Mormon devotees of Christs word have a hope of salvation, knowing that a final
judgement still awaits, where undoubtedly humility will reign as we answer for
deeds done in the body. We need to dial back any certitude we may
harbor regarding salvation and exaltation. Hope and humility should
characterize our thoughts, sermons, prayers, and interactions with those around
@InsideView ..."If Perry belongs to Jeffress' congregation and has the same
mind set, can you imagine him as President and trying to represent this great
Nation?"Good question! We are seeing that right now with our
current president and his mentor, Rev. Wright.
RE: Counter Intelligence I am not LDS; yet even I know that Smith is revered as
a leader, not God or the Messiah himself.You are probably not aware that
JS said,I have more to boast of than any man ever had. I am the only man that
has been able to keep the whole church together since the days of Adam. A large
majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, Nor
Jesus[Messiah] ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. (DHC,
v. 6 408,409)ute alumni,I have followed Bill Donohue for years. He
is always civil and thought. He is a good ambassador for the Catholic church.Mr. Donohue was defending the Catholic Church. The official Catholic view of
Mormonism is a non-Christian religion. Check Catholic Answers. The Athanasian
Creed is clear as well.
@RilesI understand one or two articles on the subject, to call out bigoted
statements, but there has been near a dozen articles in this newspaper on the
subject:-Rick Perry backer decries Mitt Romney, Mormons-Bachmann, Cain evade Mormon questions as race evolves-Evangelical
leader says LDS Church is not a cult-Local clergy weigh in on LDS 'cult'
claims, Christianity-Romney, Fischer obscurely address 'big, anti-Mormon
elephant' at Values Voter Summit-Anti-Mormonism: 'Prejudice' of age-Why worry about Mormons?-LDS public affairs chief blogs on Mormon
Christianity-Editorial: Cult of intolerance-Columnist contrasts
Elder Russell M. Nelson and Rev. Robert JeffressThe majority of
these articles focus not on clearly defining our beliefs, but on one statement
by one pastor. This article, especially, does not explain what we believe or
try to encourage religious tolerance, but says, in essence "Elder Nelson
is so much nicer the Robert Jeffress. We Mormons are so much better, look how
many people say so"I don't think that's helpful or
constructive.This is a Mormon-owned paper with a Mormon-majority
audience. Can't we ask if we are letting this bother us too much?
Over the past 50 years, LDS members have leaned heavily towards the Republican
party and supported the same ideological, social and political platforms as the
Christian right. Now we have reached the point where the Christian right is
trying to relegate Mormons to second-class status.Ironically,
"liberals" and atheists are defending Mormon candidates against
Reverend Jeffress' remarks, or at least demanding that if any candidate's
religion is criticized, all candidate's religious beliefs should be subject to
the same scrutiny. The Republican party has become so intermingled
with the Christian right that is seems to have embraced the notion that a
candidate's religion is more important than his/her competency, record and
platform. And despite the supposedly heavy influence of Christianity in the
GOP, the audiences at the Republican debates have applauded the idea of letting
a man die because he didn't have health coverage, and cheered Rick Perry's
record as the governor who oversaw the most executions.The
Republican party will use Mormons, but won't grant us equal status. Republicans
will emphatically claim they revere the Constitution and the Bible, but they
will meticulously avoid referencing either.Time for us LDS members
to re-evaluate our political allegiances.
If Perry belongs to Jeffress' congregation and has the same mind set, can you
imagine him as President and trying to represent this great Nation?
@David King,This isn't about Mormons being offended and wanting to
get back at the offender. This is about latent bigotry that is used as a tool,
not to prevent us from worshiping or believing whatever and however we will, but
to color others perceptions of Mormons who are aspiring to high secular
positions; as if to say, "don't let the facade of competence, kindness,
intelligence, etc fool you, this guy's a Mormon and we all know that the Mormon
cult is trying to take over the world and feed us lime jello with carrot
shavings". Mormon is being used as a code word for different, cultish,
anti-Christian, secretive, polygamous, and evil.It's time that
closet bigots were put under a microscope and called out. Would you also
suggest leaving racial bigotry alone? I don't think that was the context of
Elder Packer's talk at all.
Our country has two major political parties. One of them, it seems, is shot
through with priestcraft - the deliberate misleading of people on matters of
religion for personal gain. Jeffress' goals are no more about Jesus than Sarah
Palin's are about "freedom".
There are plenty of members of the LDS church that criticize other religions.
Fortunatly the leaders have been smarter than that for some time. We can take
that as a lesson.Now what if an openly Gay person ran for
president?He/she's a community organizer!
con'tthat belief? No. We believe the Church of Jesus Christ to be a
restoration of Christ's church, and we believe it sincerely. Do we have a right
to be offended when someone else has a sincerely held belief that is not
inclusive of our faith? I don't think we do have that right, nor does it help
us to be offended. No matter how hateful or ignorant the comment may seem, all
we can do is try to follow the commandments, love God, and try to treat others
with kindness. We should recognize that some may take offense at some of our
doctrinal statements. Please note I'm not saying they should, only that they
may perceive certain distinctive doctrines in a way that offends them. The
important thing is to engage in more heartfelt conversation with those willing
to engage us, and the others sometimes just have to be ignored.
Elder Boyd K. Packer told a great story in the April Conference of this year. A
man lost his wife due to an infection carried by their doctor. He became
obsessed with it and the anger and resentment filled his soul continually. He
received the wise counsel to "leave it alone" from his Stake
President. Elder Packer's counsel was: "If you have been offended,
forgive, forget it, and leave it alone."After nearly a dozen
articles about one statement by one pastor, it is time for the Deseret News and
we members of the LDS church to leave it alone. Nothing can be gained by
rehashing this day after day. Certainly we want to be understood and allowed to
declare our beliefs, but there is no need to go beyond that. If we want to be
considered Christians, let us act like Christians, instead of gloating in
comparisons about how Christian our leaders are compared to leaders of other
faiths.If we are honest with ourselves, we would realize that it
would be possible for others to take offense at our belief that God described
all other creeds as an "abomination in his sight." Should we apologize
Having served a mission in Indiana years ago, I know how hard it was to talk to
people because their ministers "warned them of us."This is
such a great side of the internet and communication in the 21st century. No blow
hard, even with his 10000 member flock, can keep the restoration from being at
least considered. With information freely available, its very difficult to not
at least catch glimpses of it through the curtain guys like Jeffress put up.
Re GoGetter"Well, I think Romney handled it will. I think, if
anything, Jeffress made his endorsed candidate look worse. Nice job, dude. Maybe
in 4 years you will think twice when you talk to anybody."...and may I add: "(if you still have anybody who wants to listen to
Christ was frequently sharp and pointed in His comments to the Pharisees and
Scribes in His day. These were people who should have known better.Christ was always kind and gentle with those who were sincere seekers of
truth, even if they were wrong.I have had many people tell me that
"Mormons are NOT Christians." I have always wondered why they thought
they could convert me by starting off with insults of the most offensive kind.
Would you buy a care from a salesman who took one look at you and told you how
ugly you are? I don't reward people that abuse me.What would Jesus
do? Jesus would take the honest seeker of truth, show them where they were
wrong in a kind and gentle manner. There would be no insults. No attacks. No
offense.If Evangelical Christians want to convert Mormons they would
be well advised to show a little love and compassion; build relationships of
trust and then work on showing the LDS people a better way, if their way is
better.Let your light so shine. May the brightest light win.
The one gripe I have with modern Christianity... it's "Love thy
neighbor." not "Judge thy neighbor."Intolerance is
the #1 problem facing the world today. On a shrinking planet where
we are increasingly connected to our fellow man can't we learn to get along?
Well, I think Romney handled it will. I think, if anything, Jeffress made his
endorsed candidate look worse. Nice job, dude. Maybe in 4 years you will think
twice when you talk to anybody.
The last sentence sums it up nicely. Rev. Jeffress makes a mockery of his own
religion. Rev. Jeffress is a poster boy for hatred, not Christianity.
I have followed Bill Donohue for years. He is always civil and thought. He is a
good ambassador for the Catholic church.
Oh no! Somebody is going to let the secret out about the LDS Church. That
being the leaders of the church are some of the sharpest and most spiritually
intelligent people in the world. Listen to the doctrines that they promote and
see and feel Christ in every word.
Thank you for this article, I found it interesting that others had come out of
the woodwork to condone this action.
jefferess may want to consult with rev. wright.
This is so wonderful to see others stick up for us. What Jeffress did was
despicable. Perry used him as a surrogate and now is paying the price. We
really appreciate the support from others.
After this story, I have a lot more faith in my fellow Christians of all faiths
"One columnist even went so far as to compare the Christian influence of
Rev. Jeffress with Elder Russell M. Nelson of the LDS Church's Quorum of the
Twelve Apostles and found Rev. Jeffress to be lacking."Not
really a fair comparison. Most people are lacking compared to Elder Nelson.