Mike,Just read your WP blog. Thank you for sharing of yourself. Well
written... Your past is like mine.Jussi
'By their fruits, ye shall know them.' Prop 8.Is the LDS church the true
There are limits as to how much convincing you can do. I believe the LDS church
is Christian since it fits my personal definition of what it means to be a
Christian denomination. With regards to the people who define Christianity as
requiring believe in the trinity doctrine, well there's not much you can do
about that. They might even be aware of the LDS beliefs, but if they're working
from a different definition of Christianity than LDS members are using,
knowledge of LDS belief isn't really going to change their view that it's not
Christian. There is inevitably going to be some level of agree to disagree but
mostly that just results in attacks going all directions.
Anyone who seriously studies what and who Jesus Christ is to the LDS church will
quickly realize that the LDS are Christians in every way. All of the media
attention has really turned the corner is support of the LDS church and the
detractors are quickly becomming exposed as hateful and un-informed.
One of the most significant reasons that many do not consider the LDS people to
be Christian is a basic disagreement on how one becomes a Christian.Many say that one becomes a Christian when the offer "The Sinners
Pray": Lord Jesus, I accept you as my personal savior and invite you into
my heart."They claim that they receive a powerful experience
they call "The Born Again Experience". This event, being Born Again,
is what makes a person Christian. (Romans 10:9).I am certain that
these people do receive such a powerful experience. I am also certain it is of
God. I just don't think it means what they think it means. The LDS
people believe that one becomes a Christian through baptism and receiving the
Holy Ghost (Acts 2:37-38 & John 3:3-5) (Strict definition).A
looser definition would be to say that any person who believes in Jesus Christ
is a Christian.Only God can see what is in our hearts. Only He can
say who a Christian is. I just hope that if I were accused of being Christian
there would be sufficient evidence to convict.
Whatever else happens this has been great for The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints. You cannot speak to anyone who will not hear but those who
really want to know the truth are getting an opportunity that was otherwise not
really available. As a convert, all of this confirms to me that I did the right
Great response Mr. Otterson.Baptism, confirmation and the sacrament are all
classic hallmarks of the Savior's gospel and his followers.
aumacoma:yes. we can even handle tougher questions. that was a lay up.
All this hub-bub in the news will bring the honest in heart to the Church
web-sites and many to the Church. I wish there were a way to track how many come
into the Church this way, but then again it is many different things that will
influence people to "investigate". On my mission, we used to love
these types of things because we could always expect a hugh increase in people
wanting to hear our message and it would usually involve several good families
from the Church of the offending person.We always will have those
certain people who will take anything the Church does out of context and go down
a path that they just don't understand and still cannot see the hugh strides the
Church is taking.
Having been raised a Protestant, I gained a testimony of Christ, but not of all
the bickering churches I attended. Through earnest seeking, at the age of
20, I found the LDS church on my own and promptly asked to be baptized. I served
a mission a year later. That was over 35 years ago.My testimony of Christ
has been significantly and exponentially enhanced, because of it.Mormonism
is Christianity on steroids.
aumacoma: The church had nothing to do with prop 8. Members of the church did
but the church itself did not.
No offense to the LDS church, I grew up in small town Utah was raised LDS. But
now living in the deep south and studying the NASB study bible, it says that
John was written around 80-85 AD and revalation was written, around 90AD. With
that being te case, how does the LDS church get away from rev 22-18 where is
says add nothing after this book?
@vail39I left the LDS church but I can still answer your question.Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words
of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall
add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:And if any man shall take
away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part
out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which
are written in this book. " Let's define something things. What is the prophecy? John's prophecy.What is the book? The book of
Revelation. We can see this in that the reference to "the plagues that are
written in this book". So the "prophecy of this book"
that can't be added or removed from is a reference not to adding or removing
from the bible, the bible wasn't assembled then. It's a reference only to adding
or removing from the Book of Revelation itself. Since the LDS church does not do
that, they are not in violation of that scripture.
@vail39,I've never seen that one. Good question, how do they? How
do they get away with changing scriptures and new revelations?Ignorance?
Little old lady in the south enters the Republican primary voting booth.She can choose a person with the same religious beliefs she has,or she
can vote for Mitt Romney and his "extra" beliefs.Mitt
Romney would be better off focusing on other issues. He can argue "I'm a
Christian" all day, but there will always be a group of voters that doesn't
vail39:It is important to note that the Bible as we know it did not
exist in 90AD. What we know as the New Testament was all separate manuscripts,
books or gospels (however you want to refer to them) of prophecies/revelations
written mainly by the apostles. It was not until the Nicene Creed of 325 AD
that the discussion began as to which holy manuscripts would be included in what
is now the Bible. The debate even excluded certain gospels which may have been
interesting to read.In other words John's declaration to NOT add to
this book refers only to his gospel of Revelations. The Bible did not exist at
the time of his writing Revelations. Revelations happens to be the last book in
the New Testament as compiled by men during and after the period of the Nicene
Creed....thus the confusion.
Born again Christians go into the world to bring the unsaved to Christ. Yet
Mormons try to convert Christians to Mormonism. If you're a Christian church as
you claim then what's up with trying to convert Christians to Mormonism if all
Christians are equal?
Summerville-A question phrased that way leads me to believe that
your intent is not to honestly find an answer but, to begin a fruitless debate.
In that light, I can only say that like all things you believe but, can't see-
it comes down to personal revelation. If you really want to know...
vail39. It says in Deuteronomy not to add to the book. Does that mean we
should quit there?
vail39 posted: how does the LDS church get away from rev 22-18 where is says
add nothing after this book? ======================Easy, when you
understand the history of how the Bible came to be. When Revelation was
written, the other books were not gathered into the Bible as we know it. It was
several hundreds years later that all the books of the NT were decided and
organized as the Bible we know today. If taken at face value, the verse in
Revelation would preclude all the other books, as they were all added to the
book of Revelation. The verse in Revelation applies only to the book of
Dear Vail39: You should read a book entitled "How Came the Bible."
The Book of Revelation was, by pure happenstance, placed at the end of the canon
when the "Bible" was put together many years later. When it states
"add nothing to this book," it is referring to the Book of Revelation
specifically, not the "Bible" or the word of God. In other words,
John is stating that no one should add to his own words in that particular book.
A similar statement is made in the Old Testament (I've forgotten the
reference). Does that mean that anything after that Old Testament reference
should be disregarded?God loves all of His children in all times and
all ages. He is all powerful. He has not lost the ability to speak through his
prophets. The truths offered in the Bible are glorious, but why should we not
seek additional truth and direction that the Saviour is offering us? That's why
we have living prophets and ongoing revelation and scripture. Brother Otterson is a brilliant communicator of the TRUTH. His calling to
communicate that Truth is clearly needed. Those who are pure in heart will hear
and accept that truth.
@vail39The work Bible comes from the Latin word biblia which means
"A collection of books". Bibliography comes from the same word. A Holy
Bible is a collection of holy books. When John instructed us not to add to or
delete from his book, he obviously meant the Book of Revelations. He was
warning us not to change it.God is always free to give us more of
his word regardless of how much people try to prevent Him from doing so.
Many of the practices that are deemed necessary to be a christian by
evengelicals were not practiced by christians historically until about 400 AD
when the king Constintine mandated those practices.So does this mean
that Jesus, his apostiles and the church they set up wasn't christian either?
Christian has become a stereotypical label. Where once it referred to a people
who accepted Christ's way of living where He accepted sinners and publicans to
His embrace. Today the title Christian seems a carry over from the Crusades
where Christ's name was used sacrilegiously to mistreat other people due to
different points of view about God and His Holy Son. The Savior will not call
people by the name of "christians." Rather, He will call His followers
in His own glorious name, Jesus Christ.
Just a note about Revelation, the official title is, "The Revelation
(singular) of St John the divine" If one is to shorten the
official title, it should read "The Revelation" or simply
"Revelation" This Book contains the Revelation of John
which he recorded and the warning at the end is, in my opinion, his way of
saying this is from God himself and is not subject to private interpretation and
the charge that to understand it's content, one must posses the same spirit of
prophecy and revelation that he himself possessed when he received it. The New Testament is complete with references of the Holy Ghost or Holy
Spirit which Christ would bestow upon the believers who were received into his
church through baptism by those who possessed the authority to perform it.It is through the Holy Ghost that we receive a sure witness of Jesus
Christ, the literal Son of God, as he is the third member of the Godhead. Latter-day saints believe in the separateness and distinctness of the
Godhead which goes contrary to the creeds of men where the Trinity was accepted
as true doctrine.
Yes, we / I believe there is scripture beside the cannon of the Bible and we /I
believe in continuing Revelation today. We / I believe that Jesus
Christ is the Perfect Son of God and he suffered the pains and sins of all that
he might know how to succor us / me and forgive those sins, and he died on the
cross of Calvary and is resurrected that we / I might live again and he lives
today as our / my Savior and Redeemer.If my testimony disqualifies
me in the eyes of some as being not Christian, then I'll take my chances in
Faith.I will not, however deny or persecute others who believe
differently than I do.
My take is, that being a Christian is a very individual thing. There is probably
a very significant portion of every denomination that argue as they might, will
never do what it takes to be a real Christian (Matt. 7:21-23). Maybe we should
all worry a little more about where we stand as an individual than where we
think others are.
A pretty weak argument in my opinion. It is like comparing a Porsche to ten
spead bike. Sure they are both vehicles but both are different in classes.
Comparing or attempting to make mormons a part of Christianity is almost as
obsurd as comparing Buddhists to Christianity-- sure they all believe in God,
just a different one - not the Christ of the Bible. Mormons need to get over
this fact and just move on that it is not a Christian religion- END OF STORY.
mightymite..You come across as such a nice person.. A REAL Christian
at heart!By what right do you or any evangelical Christian have to
say who is a Christian or not... That is Jesus Christ's right to say and only
HIS!!!!!!!!!! I believe in Jesus Christ.. he is my savior and redeemer. He
is God's son and my Messiah. I love Him. I was baptized in His name and I take
the Sacrament in His name.You may not except me as a Christian.. but
your opinion means little to me.. It is what Christ thinks that is important and
I know that he knows my heart and that to him I am considered a Christian and
that is enough for me.
In my experience the Mormons believe the Atonement of Christ is an unlimited
offering because to my knowledge they are the only Christian religion that
teaches eternal progression is possible through the Atonement. All other
Christian religions believe that is impossible, if not blasphemy! Yet my Bible
invites us to become like God; "Be ye therfore perfect, even as your Father
in Heaven is perfect." Figurative speech by Jesus or literal"? Only
you can decide whether the atonement is limited for you or it is unlimited. To
me, that is the bottom line difference between LDS doctrine and other Christian
doctrine. Like the author said, will it all end with multiplication tables for
you are will you go on to higher "math". Good analogy in my opinion!
AUma, you half-truth speaker. Prop 8 was a multi denominational, and non
denominational in some cases political action to protect traditional families.
It was not a "Mormon" thing. Stop trying to deceive people.
As a member of the church, we are taught to be honest, true, chaste, and to do
good to all men. We desire to live our lives modeling our Savior, Jesus Christ
as our perfect example. Two yrs before the Prophet Josep0h Smith died, he wrote
the Articles of Faith in a letter to John Wentworth, asking for info abt the
church. They're a good tool explaining our beliefs to others. Primary children,
age 4-12, are challenged to memorize all 13 articles of faith. Quoting a
couple:1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son,
Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.13. We believe in being honest, true,
chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed we may say
that we follow the admonition of Paul. We believe all things, we hope all
things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.
If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we
seek after these things. By their works, ye shall know them . .Let
those who question, google to know more!
Let's get the facts straight people and not run away from them. The LDS
Church announced it was joining a coalition of churches to oppose Prop 8.Though the church itself didn't provide monetary donations they paid travel
expenses and other expenses which had to be declared in the State of CA,
amounting to $180k-190k.So to say the LDS Church wasn't involved isn't
accurate. LDS church members provided a significant amount of money
and manpower to support Prop 8. Protect Marriage estimated Mormons contributed
around half of the money raised and 80-90% of the grassroots effort. Which is why the LDS Church was an easy target by opponents. We can't
run away from the facts.
@vail39One more thing on that Revelations 22 thing...The
passage says not to take anything away. If this is referring to the entire Bible
then what of the Apocrypha? These books are between the old and new testaments.
The first Bible published had the Apocrypha. The Catholics put it in. The
Protestants removed it. Would they not be as guilty of violating the command not
to mess with the Bible as the Mormons if Revelations 22 was aimed at the entire
Why the preoccupation with what others think. The LDS don't want the FLDS
calling themselves Mormon. Why would the LDS not understand the traditional
Christians don't want them calling themselves Christian. Its all about
Funny, "visit the website for more infomation." - run like a true
snowman -The church had nothing to do with prop 8. Members of the church
did but the church itself did not. LDS4 -huh? The Church had
nothing to do with passing it in the same way a military general had nothing to
do with enemy casualties. He never pulled a trigger. He, like the Church,
simply ordered the foot soldiers to do all of the dirty work so that no blood
every got on his hands. Church members, under the direction of Salt lake, gave
half the money and 90% of the man-hours. You and I and everybody else knows
that if it wasn't for the Church, the campaign wouldn't have gotten a fraction
of what they got in $ and man-hours and without that, the campaign would have
lost.BTW, why were members directed to send donations to a Church
P.O. Box with donation slips listing their ward and stake instead of just
sending the money directly to the campaign? The Church DID have
something to do with it since it paid a fine to the IRS over underreporting the
in-kind donations the Church HQ gave to the campaign.
'By their fruits, ye shall know them.' Those who seek with real intent, ponder
in their hearts, and seek with an open heart and minds. Ofter pray with real
intent will receive an answer from the Holy Ghost and a burning in their bosom,
that these things are true. That is the promise that Jesus Christ has made to
mankind that his church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the
Book of Mormon is True.That is the test, that I made some 37 years ago.I've spend all my life near and close to politics. Never have I seen such
contention against the believes over a man's faith for the office of President
of the United States nor who is a Christian and who isn't a Christian.When
the need arises from natural emergencies. You will find The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints providing help. That is Christians in action.
The mormon church has been in the forefront of recognising the christianity
brand as where the political power is in this country, and aligning itself
One more tryRe:HawkyoProtect Marriage was a coalition which the LDS
Church joined.Protect Marriage also reported around half of the money
raised came from Mormons, and a majority of the grassroots efforts was done by
@Cats"Those who are pure in heart will hear and accept that truth.
"So people who learn about Mormonism and choose not to join,
decide they don't believe the LDS church is true, or were part of it and leave
aren't pure in heart? @cjb"Many of the practices that are
deemed necessary to be a christian by evengelicals were not practiced by
christians historically until about 400 AD when the king Constintine mandated
those practices."I think you will find that most who believe in
the trinity doctrine believe that it was not created in 400AD, just that the
council of nicaea (sp?) helped explain something that was always taught and
always a biblical truth. @mightymite"Mormons need to get
over this fact and just move on that it is not a Christian religion"According to the definition of Christian used by some. Not the case with
others.@Hawkyo"Prop 8 was a multi denominational, and non
denominational in some cases political action to protect traditional families.
It was not a "Mormon" thing"The LDS church gave about
200k in in kind donations, members (2% of california) donated ~1/2 the money and
~3/4 the volunteer hours)
The doctrine of the Trinity, three-in-one God, is not in the Bible. It is a
product of various creeds. How can other Christian faiths criticize the Book of
Mormon when their own doctrine is outside scripture?
Let us all get over this and allow each other differences of opinions on
this!The most important question is, and has always been, Who is YOUR
personal Savior?The best most Christian answer from a clergy with a
long time affiliation with LDS is by the Catholic Archbishop.George Niederauer
when SL Tribune interviewed him as ha leaving his post as the bishop to the
200.000 Utah Catholics 10 years ago." If a man or woman of
whatever church says to me, 'I believe Jesus Christ is my Savior and I try to
follow Him and live my life according to His teachings and therefore I am a
Christian.' who am I to say I know better?". Word.by word quote... I have
it as a bookmarker in my Book of Mormon.
RE: The Rock The work Bible comes from the Latin word biblia which means "A
collection of books". Bibliography comes from the same word. A Holy Bible
is a collection of holy books. Wrong, The N.T was written in Greek,
Bible(Biblos)a book or scroll. Holy(Hagios)separate or saint. What makes the
Holy Bible different from other books is over 200 fulfilled prophecies.Re: The Rock,Romans 10:9 Jesus is Lord. The early Christian statement of
faith. Lord(kyrios) is the Septuagint translation of YAHWEH or Jesus is God.John 3:3 Born again(anothen)Born from above. Or (1Peter 1:23), For you
have been born againthrough. the word of God.Reveation(apokalpsis)
uncovering.For ALL the prophets were until John(the Baptist)(Mt
11:13) In past times He spoke by the prophets but in these Latter Days by His
Son.(Heb 1:1,2 paraphrase)
Hold on here! When did the Mormon Church change/add/subtract anything
from the Bible? The debate is kinda pointless cuz the LDS church has never added
or subtracted anything from the Bible. Mormons, In fact embrace the Bible as a
whole. Mormons don't even use the "New World" edition but the older
and more traditional "King James" version of the Bible.The real
answer to question of Mormon additions to the Bible is to simply ask for an
example of just ONE change that has been made. Response there are none. Dont
confuse the issue. What about the Book of Mormon? Oh yeah .. its ANOTHER
testament of Jesus Christ.
@Europe: Archbishop Niederauer and President Hinckley were a great example of
Christian allies in the causes for ministering to the needs of the community and
the country, even if their doctrines did not match. I miss both of these men
and appreciate your comments.I am glad someone is finally sending
people on to the Church's website for info--I am never comfortable asking
someone who is LDS to explain to me about a Baptist's/Buddhist/Jewish person's
faith. I don't think we will sway the minds of many who choose to get hung up
on the religion issues, but it sounds like Mitt Romney handled himself in the
recent debate best by just taking the higher road and moving on rather than
taking a contentious stand. The longer this goes on, the more the right-wing
looks uninformed and bigoted, which is a big turn-off in 2012. I say
Romney/Cain ticket for 2012--LDS/African American team of well-known
businessmen? I can see it....
My non-member friend visited my ward with us one Sunday. He said the chapel
seemed "sterile" since there were no pictures or a cross. He said it
reminded him a public school, no references to the Lord. He also left the
meeting feeling like we worship "families" and that we believe
families are what get mormon people into heaven, not Christ's atonement. He left
feeling like we weren't Christian. It opened my eyes that Christ is often
pushed aside for other priorities we think are important.
@BloomerJeffHave you really ever been in an LDS church? Every single
one I have been in has pictures of Jesus Christ and Biblical seens all over the
wall. BloomerJeff your pants are on fire.
Truthseeker: Again the church had nothing to do with prop 8. The money that the
church has belongs to its members and no the church gave no money to prop 8.Kevin J. Kirkham: The church did not order its members to do anything.
I know it must be hard for someone who doesn't completly understand God the
Father and his love and concerns for us to think that there is no modern-day
revelation but I liken it to a loving father sending his children away from home
and then never contacting them again. They may know that he is their father but
do they know of his constant love and help for our day and it's problems? The
Book of Mormon is another testament of a loving Heavenly Father who cares for
our welfare and guides us through this mortal life as he testifies of his son
Jesus Christ who is the example that we should follow.
My heart aches for those who have had the blessngs of church membership in their
lives, and I Pray they will come back into the fold. This generation has so
many things that pull them away from the true teachings of the Savior that it
makes my heart ache. The Early members of the church suffered in physical ways,
much more than we do today, as they were driven from their homes, in Missouri,
and Illinois. We are now suffering because of all the people who use this great
media to run the church down. It should wake some of those people up that we
have grown to a worldwide church from a small town in Upstate New York. Over 14
million strong, and with members around the world. Also, for you that run down
the church, are you aware of the great humanitarian service performed by the
church through its members? I Know that the gospel was restored, and that it is
hard for some to understand, but to those of you who have fallen away please
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into
your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting
participates in his evil deeds, 2 John 10-11; But even if we, or an angel from
heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let
him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches
any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed,
Galatians 1:8-9; But there were also false prophets among the people, even as
there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive
heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift
destruction, 2 Peter 2:1.
This is only a case of the Christian world deeming themselves Christian because
of their body of beliefs. When they say that Mormons aren't Christian they're
misstating and basing those misstatements on differences in beliefs. It's a
shame that they've taken Christ out of Christianity.
Carol P. WarnickPlease stop listening to those Mormons who converted
away from other religions - they are failed believers and apostates. Would you
trust former LDS to tell the truth about Mormonism?Every Protestant
preacher, Orthodox or Catholic Priest, or religious professor of theology I have
spoken with (and that is quite a few) has acknowledged and even gloried in
ongoing revelation from God.It is such a misrepresentation to say
that ONLY the LDS Church believes in continuing, modern-day revelation. That
just simply is NOT true! And because it is not true, the claim that LDS have the
only current revelation among Christians cannot be used as evidence for the
"truth" of your Church.Why do you continue to distort and
attack other faiths just to make your Church look better?
Well written reply by the LDS church public affairs chief.Detractors
will freak out, if they choose, over LDS doctrines and our continued growth, but
so be it.The Lord is at the head and the mighty caravan moves on.
@MidwestMom" How can other Christian faiths criticize the Book of
Mormon when their own doctrine is outside scripture? "They
believe that the trinity doctrine is biblical and supported by scripture. They
believe that the Council of Nicaea merely wrote out a simple explanation of what
always was a biblical truth.@CalvinR"When did the Mormon
Church change/add/subtract anything from the Bible?"The belief
is that the Mormon church added the Book of Mormon to scriptures which in
essence is like adding books to the Bible (the word Bible in the "adding to
the Bible" phrase means "scriptures" when used in a claim against
the LDS church). Of course, as I and others already explained, that
verse about adding/subtracting is in Revelation and only applies to the book of
Revelation anyway so it doesn't matter either way.@snowman"no the church gave no money to prop 8."LDS Church's
in-kind donations to Prop. 8 total $190KDeseret News Published: Tuesday,
Feb. 3, 2009@believeroftheway"But even if we...preach any
other gospel to you than what we have preached to you"Doesn't
mean there can't be more scriptures, they just have to preach the same Gospel.
When people have asked whether Mormons are Christian, or have made statements
that they are not, I've always found it helpful to ask them how precisely they
define their term. I believe that most of this misunderstanding is one of
imprecise language. Only once I know how someone is using the term
"Christian" can I best respond. The fact is, there are some real,
fundamental differences in what most Mormons believe about the nature and
mission of Jesus Christ (and godhood generally), and what other mainstream
Christian denominations believe. So I generally don't take offense when someone
asserts that I am not Christian, if all they are really saying is, "we
don't believe the same thing." But if the best they can come up with is,
you don't believe in Jesus Christ as the savior of the world, then we have need
of a much longer conversation. This problem is only exacerbated in politics,
where people never define their terms and instead opt to use a scripted
shorthand where "liberal," "small business owner," and
"socialist" are supposed to mean the exact same thing to everyone who
uses those terms.
the good Rev. Jeffress isn't interested in the truth but he is VERY interested
in keeping his "paying flock" away from understanding the truth about
Mormonism. You see the more people know about Mormons the more likely they are
to join with them and Jeffress knows that fact all too well - thousands of
protestants leave their own faiths and join with the Mormons every year and this
is $$$ out of Jeffress pocket.
re:BoomerJeffAn LDS chapel would be significantly different from a
Catholic church.I can certainly understand your friend's observations. I
love the beauty and architecture of Catholic Cathedrals. The LDS chapels
can be austere. We never even have flower arrangements in our chapel and the
lights seem really dim. The burlap on the walls, well you get the picture. It
is depressing! I've often wondered what visitors think of our
sacrament meetings. Sometimes they are more gospel focused, but many times they
are taylored to a narrower audience: missionary work, temples etc. We had non
member visitors accompany us to church around the 24th of July. We warned them
ahead of time they would hear about the Mormon pioneers. re:snowmanDid you live in CA in 2008?It is a matter of public
record how the church was involved with Prop 8. I can assure you through
my firsthand experience there was significant involvement of the local ward
members here. Leaders also repeatedly "reminded" us, during Sunday
meetings, of the Churche's stance on the issue. I could go into detail but it
wouldn't get posted.
Snowman: I was referring to the room where sacrament meeting is being held, not
the whole "church building". My non-member frend thought that room
was too sterile, with no pictures or the cross.
@BloomerJeff What? no graven images to worship... So they did not
like the mormon church cuz it was not decorated to their taste. Seriously.
Truthseeker: I do not live in California but I do know that the church did not
order its members to do anything about prop 8. Church members were involved but
the church itself was not. It was as you said local ward members. The General
Authorities did not order us to do anything. BoomerJeff: It wasn't
me who said anything about pictures in the ward buildings.
Re JohnsonR:You are sadly mistaken with the concept. Look a little
deeper: Behaviour considered idolatrous or potentially idolatrous may include
the creation of any type of image of the deity, or of other figures of religious
significance such as prophets... This would be the true meaning of graven
images. Please refer to repected theologians before you speak. Seriously.
"In past times He spoke by the prophets but in these Latter Days by His
Son.(Heb 1:1,2 paraphrase)"donn:So to make your
argument that there can be no prophets today, you paraphrase the words of a
post-Ascension Apostle and yet cite them as the Word Of God. You've countered
your own argument. If the Apostle Paul was inspired to speak the
Word post-Ascension, so may Apostles today.
re:snowmanFrom the First Presidency letter to be read to all CA
congregations on June 29, 2008:"A broad-based coalition of churches
and other organizations placed the proposed amendment on the ballot. The Church
will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage. Local Church
leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this
important cause.We ask that you do all you can to support the
proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure
that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a
woman."Now, I don't know what you mean by "order."
No, we weren't threatened with excommunication (at least in our ward/stake).
The Church cannot/didn't directly donate to the Prop 8 campaign, but
it did spend money for travel (hotels, airfare, car rental) for various people,
audiovisual production services etc. adding up to $188,956.61 as reported by CA
Sec. of State. The Church was involved. It never hid its
involvement. So I don't know where you are coming from.
Truthseeker: That was not read in any of my meetings. Church members were
involved but not the church. And no money ( the money that the church has comes
from its members) was given by the church.
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of
Babylon' . . . . And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy
ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches
will be sent down to hell with them." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255)"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of
the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil." (1 Nephi
14:10)"Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a
Prophet . . . is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ."
(Brigham Young, History of the Church, vol.7, p. 287)"[F]or
they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their
creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;
that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me,
they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness,
but they deny the power thereof.'" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith,
JohnInSLC,"In past times He spoke by the prophets but in these Latter Days
by His Son.(Heb 1:1,2 paraphrase)"Ok, no parapharase.Hath in
these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all
things, by whom also he made the world =*(aion, 165, eternity). (Hebrews 1:2
KJV)*God created time. For all the* Prophets and the Law prophesied
until John.(Mt 11:13 NIV). The *Office of Prophet.Not prophecy but
a statement. God spoke in past times but in last times, He spoke to us by the
Son. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was
revealed in these Last Times for your sake.(1 Peter 1:21 NIV) An inspired
statement not a prophecy.
snowman,"Church members were involved but not the church. And
no money ( the money that the church has comes from its members) was given by
the church."You are mistaken. Loren C. Dunn was dispatched by
Church leaders to set up the "coalition" that fought same sex marriage
in Hawaii and California. Church money was authorized and spent in setting up
this coalition, hiring lobbyists, and conducting "research" that was
used to "discredit" those who favored same sex marriage, and to
"dilute" the legislation that was passed.Google it. You
will find the truth.
The VankaI didn't attack other churches. They can believe as they choose.
I just ask for the same privilage. Christ himself told his Apostles,
"Other sheep have I." After he died on the cross he came to those
other sheep. What happened in those days before Christ re-appeared to his
Apostles? It is recorded in the Book of Mormon. If you want to read about it
you will find about the event in 3rd Nephi of the Book of Mormon. I'm just
stating that the Book of Mormon is another testifer of Jesus Christ and should
be considered modern revelation given to another modern-day Prophet Joseph Smith
through revelation. Why is it so hard that some believe that we can't have
modern day prophets that proclaim the teachings of the same church that Christ
himself organized. The Book of Mormon is scripture for our day and was brought
forth to help us during OUR day. Read it and find out for yourself.
Carol,Yes, you did. You said they do not believe in continuing
revelation from God. That is not true, and saying so is an attack on them.
@mightymiteThats a great point you make. You have
obviously been siting by your computer just waiting for someone to type the word
"idolatrous" so you could pull out the old dictionary and use that old
quote you found in some book a couple of years ago. What you typed had nothing
to do with my point... and that is...Basing a religions validity by
who did your interior decorating is a bit silly
I do not understand why those attempting to defend the Church on Prop. 8 appear
to do so by saying "The Church did not tell members to do it." Yes it
did, as our enemies point out, but we should be proud of it. Our church took a
stand on a moral issue. That is one of the many fruit by which we are known as
the followers of Christ. We should make no excuses for doing the Lord's will.
donn:Inspired statements by the Lord's servants ARE prophetic, at
any time. See Revelation 19:10 ("for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit
of prophecy").Your notion that the calling of prophets ended
with Christ's Ascension takes a real hit from the Apostle John, who speaks of
two witnesses who "shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore
days." Rev. 11:3. Indeed, the angel who served as John's guide to his grand
vision told him that "the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to
shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done." Revelation
22:6. By all measures, except yours, John was a prophet. As we can
all receive revelation (James 1:5), the difference is who we are entitled to
receive revelation for. Apostles were called before and after His death as
special witnesses of Christ (see Acts 1:22). Matthias (v. 26) and Paul (Rom.
1:1) received that calling well after the Ascension. Paul even applied the title
to Christ, who was a witness of his Father (Heb 3:1).In sum, an
apostolic calling includes the calling of a prophet.
I assert that evangelicals, generally, are Christian, and I love them. Some are admittedly trained to post anti-Mormon propaganda on the DN and
elsewhere. There are also many anti-Mormon websites claiming to
teach us what Mitt Romney and all Mormons "really believe." Several of
these quote Orson Pratt on Babylon (editing and leaving out his reference to
John). Ive oft discussed the semi-quotes posted by DN Evangelicals and
anti-Mormon gay Atheists etc (creed tortures etc)but not the Pratt quote. Saying Mitt and Mormons believe something because someone LDS (including
O.Pratt, BY etc) said it is as unfair as saying present day Mormons all believe
Gentiles are unclean because their early Prophet, Peter believed it (before his
vision); that all Protestants "really believe" Catholicism is an
"abomination" and "blasphemy," "works" centered,
etc because Luther said it; that all Protestants hate Jews and LDS because they
raped and sought extermination, etc. Many opinions are given, and
LDS Presidents have clarified that the Abominable Church is not the Catholics
and Protestants. The BofM definition is those torturing, attacking, etc the
Saints. It could be some Atheists, some gays, some Catholics, some Mormons etc.
If what Mormons really believe is found anywhere, it is found in the Book of
Mormon: 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man,
that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge;
for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ,
is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a
perfect knowledge it is of God.11 For behold, a bitter fountain
cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter
water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and
if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
@John InSLC In sum, an apostolic calling includes the calling of a prophet .
Wrong,they are different callings:Surely the Lord GOD will do
nothing, but he revealeth his secret(plan) unto his servants the prophets. (Amos
3:7)Familiar?Built(past tense) on the foundation of the Apostles and
Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.(Ephesians 2:20
NIV)And God has placed in the church First of all Apostles, Second
Prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of
guidance,(1 Cor 12:28 NIV) Apostles are first in line for Church government in
the N.T. . There are over 26,000 N.T. quotes from the(2nd c)
disciples of the Apostles and early church fathers can reconstruct the N.T. less
8 verses."For all the prophets and the LAW prophesied until
John(the Baptist)Mt 11:13
The Vanka, I said someone who doesn't understand how our Heavenly Father
works (refering to how a father would relate to his children.) Another church
was never mentioned. Are you telling me that everyone believes in modern-day
revelation the same as our church does?If they did they wouldn't be saying
that the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints aren't
Christian because we believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to a
young boy named Joseph Smith who is a modern day prophet and revealed many
truths through the Book of Mormon. I'm afraid you got it all wrong about who is
being attacked here.
@ donn I did not say that the Bible was written in Latin. The word
BIBLE has a Latin root; biblia, which means a collection of books.The rest of your comments are equally intellectual.