Sharonna,donn,brokenclay co. I'm not much more than a plowboy, but I think most
LDS would be willing to discuss God, Trinity, etc with any open minded
Christian, no matter how high. Contentious debates and fighting over Jesus,
however, are now against the doctrine of Christ. I've often extended
a hand of explanation, and I've written letters to Shawn McCraney (after he
challenged LDS FAIR lds founder to a fight over Jesus on his weekly anti-Mormon
show), suggesting that he include a comment section on his web pages, like the
DN, but I get no responses. I'm not sure what you mean by the
"original text" of the Bible. We certainly don't have all the original
texts written by Apostles (btw the Senior Apostle can prophesy, thus is a
Prophet also). We all know the "Bible" is a collection of writings,
but not all inclusive, and we've discussed changes previously. Even Augustine
admits the scriptures were changed by enemies of Christ. Once again,
the LDS Trinity, the Tri-Unity of three persons, is the NT Deity. The Creeds (including Nicene-originally written by the Coptic Pope
(non-Christians by some definitions)), often present a philosophers' God.RE? : )
XelaDave,Nobody "booed a gay soldier." They booed the man
who insulted the gay soldier and had the heckler removed from the meeting. A little research goes a long way.
@SharronaI can understand discussions and disagreements about the
legitimacy of one doctrine versus another, or which translation of the Bible is
the best, or any other topic of substance. There are understandable
disagreements on many theological topics in every corner of Christendom. What I don't understand is this Non-Christian label attached to people
who observe Christian practices of which The Lords Supper, baptism and
evangelism are a few. Our Muslim, Atheist, and Jewish neighbors do not practice
these things. I can think of several Protestant congregations that have
teachings that are beyond the pale and I still call them Christians. Perhaps
misguided Christians, but I'll give them that they are trying to be followers of
Christ. Read up on snake handling during worship services and you'll know what
I mean, it occurs in a small division of a prominent sect. I'll
stick to my original premise. They are Christians, but you don't have to agree
with everything. Since you don't walk into just any Church on a
Saturday or Sunday my guess is you don't agree with most Christians on
To The Athiest: Are you kidding? Active LDS give more 10% of their income
which I think is over $5. That is pretty generous on the part of the giver.
Besides the Humanitarian Assistance which is documented by the Philanthropies,
they have their fast offerings which does not go into that figure. Many people
are fed on that assistance. In addition their buildings are fortified to sustain
natural disasters. I bring that up because a relative, who never thought they'd
darken the door of an LDS chapel, had to use one in Oklahoma during a tornado.
The LDS Church website reports:"Value of Humanitarian
Assistance Since 1985: $1.3 Billions"1.3 Billions over 26 years
= 50 million per year.With an average Church membership over those
26 years of 11 million, I believe that = $ 4.15 per member.How
charitable are the LDS? They give an average of under 5 bucks a year each to
Humanitarian Assistance.By the way, the City Creek project costs are
estimated to exceed $1 Billion.
I'd love to see a poll (on question whether LDS are Christian or not) of Utah
Evangelicals compared to a Nation wide poll to see if the UT Evangelicals know
something the Nation wide don't. I suspect if you know a LDS, your
more likely to recognize them as Christian then those who don't know a LDS.
@big Blue"All I can say if works prove that you walk the talk,
then you can not deny that the Mormons are Christian because no one does more
welfare for all of God's Children in the name of his Son than Mormons, whether
those in need be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc; Hundreds of Millions
of dollars have been spent giving help to those in need by the Mormon
Church,"60 million a year in humanitarian aid the past decade
if I remember correctly. That's quite a lot. However... what is the church's
income? I don't know, those numbers aren't really available, but what if it's 3
billion a year (a not unrealistic estimate)? That 60 million would then become
2%. I'm pretty sure I could find a church that donated more than 2% to charity
and if not... then it's a sorry state of affairs religious giving is in.
Grace, What ever Church you've joined has been changing doctrines
too. Some Churches have different doctrines every congregation within the same
sect. It all depends on that pasters focus. Give yourself time to study them
and in time you'll find that it's simply the nature of humans to change things.
Maybe that is why Christ was born a good deal after Adam and Eve- to
set things straight. Think about it, he could have died for us at the beginning
of time, or the very end, but he chose a mid-point. Historical,
ancient Christianity, had plural marriage too- so what is your point? Think of
Abraham and the other ancients.
Spot on comment Grace, You go girl! Nice comment.
Grace: You couldn't be more wrong.
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I may not be
a christian, but I am a Follower of Jesus Christ. He is my Savior and I love
@hermounts"this story just goes to show what a number of studies I've
heard of recently show, that people who know members of the LDS Church are much
more likkely to have a more positive attitude toward the Church."That seems to be true for pretty much everything, the other demographic I've
seen those studies on frequently is that people who know members of the LGBT
community are much more likely to have a more positive attitude towards them and
more likely to support LGBT rights.
@Iron Rod: As of a couple months ago, we do have sort of an Anti-Defamation
League of sorts although it's made by the same people as FAIR and has no
affiliation with the Church. They say they are going to take an active role in
contacting and correcting reporters who write biased or inaccurate stuff about
us. Time will tell whether it makes a difference or not.
If it is because the LDS doctrine does not follow the traditional Christian
views is the reason they do not consider us Christian then fine. All of us who
are LDS know that Jesus is the Savior of all mankind, that he is the Son of God,
and that we try to obey his commandments, and follow his example on how we
should treat each other. Now if that is not what a Christian is then I don't
understand. LDS members strive everyday to help others, serve in their church
and communities, visit the sick, feed the hungry and many other things the
Savior has asked ALL of us to do. So can someone tell me what is considered to
be a TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN. Because I don't get it. I thought all Christians
were people who excepted Jesus as their Savior and followed him.
@ Just Thinking Outloud. Start with the creeds to which the modern religions
adhere. The Nicene Creed, written about 325AD, or The Athanasian Creed. How about, a televised theological debate the Catholic Church has an
official apologetics ministry(Catholic Answers). Protestants as well: Lutheran,
Reformed and Presbyterian. They Biblically defend the Trinity, and the creeds..
Mormons should have the advantage they have apostles.The Bible(Lower
criticism). It is not true that we do not possess the original text of the
Bible. What we do not possess are the original manuscripts. We have accurate
well- preserved copies of the original text. There are some 5,700 early N.T.
MS, and they contain all or nearly all of the original text . The original text
can be reconstructed 99% accuracy. There is a distinction between the text and
the truth of the text. While we, the have 99% of the original text, 100 % of
the truth comes through.Christians debate Muslims and secular
theologians often on all the above issues. CONTEND for the Faith that God has
once for all entrusted to the saints(Jude 3)
this story just goes to show what a number of studies I've heard of recently
show, that people who know members of the LDS Church are much more likkely to
have a more positive attitude toward the Church.
The freedom of speech and religion are wonderful things indeed and anyone
can opine and worship as they wish. However, the notion of a non evangelical
president not being allowed to access the blessings of inspiration and
guidance from a higher being, has got to be one of the most foolish and narrow
minded opinions I have ever heard. This is just as bad as people saying that the
world is flat because some convention said so, and whomever sails out too far
will go straight to endless torment in the lake of fire and brimstone. I
posit that God(or whichever higher being that is preferred) is no respecter of
persons. We are all creations of this Being and we have the right for divine
help and intervention with whatever stewardship that we are responsible for.
So that aside, would it not be consistent with the many religious
denominations to stop complaining and pray for our leaders? Furthermore, just
because some convention decides something does not make it a fact. The only
fact in this case is what opinion they choose to have.
The anti-Mormons are correct in a sense. We're not part of Hellenized
Christianity (what many mistakenly call "traditional Christianity" or
"historical Christianity," but which is more Aristotle than Christ),
nor are we part of today's pop Christianity (social club mega-churches that are
the religious equivalent of infomercials).I'm willing to tolerate
believers in Hellenized and pop Christianity, though. Some of them are even
decent people and good neighbors, regardless of their adherence to paganistic
philosophies and pop psychology decorated with a thin Christian veneer. If they
say that they are believers in Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God and
the Savior of the world, I'll give them the courtesy of taking their word for
A major issue has been dowplyed in this article: If all this pastor said was
that the LDS are a cult, well that has been said for years. What
was ignored was the more egregious comment: That because the LDS are a cult--in
his opinion--they then have no constitutional rights. I would never
vote for Obama, but if Perry gets the nomination, I will vote third party.
Every time one of these dogmatic hissy fits about who's a cult and who's true
breaks out I think: A: religion divides us like nothing else; B: At least some,
if not all, the participants in the argument are proving themselves liars, and
C: religion doesn't belong in politics.
@grandmagreat, who were the men that murdered the Prophet Joseph Smith? A newspaper article in the spring of 1844. A very strong and bitter
feeling was aroused against Joseph, among many of his brethren [ ,probably
Mormons in the Masonic lodge] in and around NauvooJoseph had recently presented
the revelation of Celestial Marriage to the high council for approval, and
certain members were bitterly opposed to itFrancis Higbe a justice of the
peace, sat a table in one end of the room and administered the oath to each
individual separately, in the following manner, The candidate would step forward
to the table; take up a Bible.. Raise his right handYou solemnly swear ,before
God and all holy angels, and these your brethren by whom you are surrounded,
that you will give your life, your liberty, your influence, your all, for the
destruction of Joseph Smith and his party! The person being sworn in say, I do.
About 200 hundred persons [took] the oath. (Millennial Star, Vol.46 pp
497,499,501,502 and 519). JS was married to 10 of their wives, which probably
did not help matters.
By Paster Jeffress' definition the following religions are also cults:Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. It's one thing to say you don't
regard members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as
"Christian"; but it's quite another to put them in the same camp with
Jim Jones Kool-Aid drinkers. I think the media is giving undue
voice to a pretty marginal figure, but it's interesting to see how many other
"mainstream" Christians aren't willing to take a stand on his
inflammatory comments. Lots of lukewarm responses out there. We all know what
Christ thought of lukewarm...
Any religion who interperts the Bible as ...God is all powerfulGod is all lovingGod will throw you into eternal torment
forever and ever, if you are a Hindu, a Jew or some other religion and don't
accept Jesus.Has no business pointing fingers at others.They make God out to be worse than Hitler or Osama Bin Ladin.
I am a Christian. I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus Gonzales, the guy that came in
and painted my living room.It all comes down to how you define
Jesus. Are you following Jesus as he is described in the B of M or are you
following Jesus as he described himself in the Bible? Have no doubt, the two are
very different. ( John 1:1 & John 8:56-58)if a group of people
have a belief system and label themselves with a title and THEN another group
comes along with a different belief system and calls themselves with the SAME
title....of course the first group is going to say, "You don't belong to
our belief system, so please don't label yourselves with our title."
From a poster at Amazon dot com who hits it on the head....QUOTEThe
problem is that when someone says, "Mormons aren't Christian" there's
a huge gasp from the listener. The listener doesn't hear that the LDS church is
doctrinally different. The listener hears that the LDS people don't believe in
Christ. That is inaccurate. Ask any LDS person if they believe in Christ and
they will say, "Yes". Why don't people just start calling the LDS
church non-orthodox Christians (or Restorationist Christians as found on
religioustolerance dot org)? Throw it in our face that we don't believe as you
do, but accept the fact that we do believe in Christ.I call myself a
Christian. The LDS church says it's Christian. You can think whatever you want.
END QUOTELDS are NOT Creedal Christians, But we ARE
Christian, in that we believe Christ, we follow Christ. We teach Christ, We
breath and pray Christ.
Maybe the LDS Church should stop sucking up to the Evangelicals. The enemy of
your enemy is not necessarily your friend. They may well be way, way worse than
us Liberals that you fight against.
It's a sad day when the very rights that were fought to be preserved are now
used to prejudice against an American wanting a better country, and therefor
choosing to exercise his American right by running for the office of President.
It's funny... I am a member of the LDS Church and I consider Catholics,
Protestants (incl Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc.) and yes, even
evangelicals to be Christians - followers of Christ. Why can't they see mormons
likewise? Contention is a tool of the adversary - it's amazing how divided
Christians are when discussing theology and "whose most righteous".
Sounds like everyone has their own Rameumptom to speak from...
Darrel,"These words taught by the one True Christian define to
me a Christian, whether he profess a belief in Christ, Buddah, Allah or himself.
I would much rather have the title 'disciple' than 'christian'"So as an atheist, if I "love one another", the you consider me to be
a Christian?I find that presumptuous and offensive.Why
can't I just be considered a loving atheist?
Looks like someone is using the same play from the "Mike Huckabee for
President" handbook.Like a wild animal eating it's own young,
it only goes to show how intolerent the GOP has really become.Like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole.Why - oh - why do Utah
Republican Mormons yearn and long to part of these sorts of vile people?
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have
loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall men know that ye are my
disciples, if ye have love, one to another."These words taught
by the one True Christian define to me a Christian, whether he profess a belief
in Christ, Buddah, Allah or himself. I would much rather have the title
"disciple" than "christian"
[quote] "I personally consider Mormons (The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints) to be Christians." Seventy-five percent of the pastors
surveyed said they disagree with that statement. [unquote]Wow! So
25% actually agreed? I'd say that's progress!Are we Christian? Of
course we are. Are we "mainstream" Chirtians? No. We took the
Nicene Creed and tossed it out the window. We are NOT mainstream, and are proud
I do so love how religion teaches people to judge one another.Wait...Aren't we supposed to love one another?
Let me understand the bottom line here, 'cuz there's way too much whining from
the church that told the world in 1830 that every existing denomination on the
planet were not the true Christians. Joseph didn't use the dreaded
"c" word that Jeffress used. He used the other one-
"corrupt", to disavow any other denomination's priesthood, scripture
or ordinance validity. Is that accurate according to all I've read on
mormon.org, the title page of the Book of Mormon, my multiple missionary
lessons, my entire LDS family, my conversations with the bishop and stake
president up the street, et al?Why do you now want to be considered
part of what you still claim is Chrisianity gone awry? No one said you are not
charitable, loving, awesome people. They're just agreeing with you that you
have your own prophets, scriptures, priesthood and doctrines, which don't
correspond to the Bible, which your own founder rewrote! That is the classic
theological definition of a cult. In my dictionary alone, all Christians
fulfill 6 of Webster's 10 definitions; LDS fill 9 of them. Who cares?Please, some one, expain your own self-proclaimed designation and separation.
As long as you imply "Historical Christemdom" then you are right,
Mormons do not meet that description. But that is the whole thesis of their
being; That Historical Christemdom fell away through the Great Apostasy, and
that a new Christemdon based on that ancient organization was required to
re-establish the ancient church. That is why Mormons consider themselves a new
wing of Christianity, not an extension of the "historical" version.
All I can say if works prove that you walk the talk, then you can not deny that
the Mormons are Christian because no one does more welfare for all of God's
Children in the name of his Son than Mormons, whether those in need be
Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc; Hundreds of Millions of dollars have
been spent giving help to those in need by the Mormon Church, not just talking
about it! The proof is in the pudding.
If you really want to understand the exact nature of the 'cult' flap, walk into
any Christian bookstore's Apologetics section, or do research online. When you
read the Biblical definition, you will understand. Just giving your impression
of a cult, based on some wierd Manson-like movie won't educate you.I
confronted "The Godmakers" book head on to refute its claims for a
friend who refused to attend Sacrament Meeting with us, because we
"ascribed to cultic theology and unbiblical gods". We gave him a Book
of Mormon and Widstoe's "A Work and a Wonder". We agreed to settle
our misunderstandings atleast. I refused to attend a showing of the movie, but
took the book to check out Decker's so-called documentation. I referenced every
one, ready to trash it, and kept a journal of each chapter. This friend was my
husband's best friend and we desperately wanted him to at least visit church and
read our best defense.My husband left the church, my bishop advised I
divorce a man who "could not take me to the Celestial Kingdom", and I
gladly did.I finished my research: all accurate. Mormonism is
plural wives, gods and changing doctrines. Unbiblical.
This comment site reflects the very reasons by which those who claim
non-Biblical doctrines place themselves outside of Biblical fellowship. You
have that right, Joseph Smith had that right, and now let your stated beliefs
define you and move on. Why any active Mormon cares about outside labels is
beyond me. If you want so badly to be considered authentic Christians, then go
to the first document that defined Christ's own words, and align your doctrines
accordingly. FYI: It would help if you'd stop quoting from the Book that
you claim is corrupt, as your proof-text.When I grew up LDS, we were
proud to denounce any brotherhood with the false body of so-called true
Christians. We quoted Joseph Smith; we didn't sleep through seminary, so we
knew exactly how to respond to those 'hateful, anti-Mormons'. We especially
reacted to The Godmakers. We disliked the born-agains most, and there was no
love lost in our confrontations.Not until a Baptist friend pointed
out her observations of my hypocrisy did I inderstand her reasons for excluding
our denomination in their camp: We knocked on their doors claiming
they weren't the "true believers". Mormons still do.
I sure hope the world allows me to be Christian some day- glad they are
discussing it though since as many have pointed out here it is up to them to
decide- my beliefs and actions will never have anything to do with it- hopefully
I can join their club someday and act just like them- one question- where were
all the other candidates when the crowd was cheering for someone to die without
insurance and booing a gay soldier- glad most have defended Mitt but they still
have some "spalnin" to do prior to any getting my vote- I live in a
better more christian country than that- I hope
@esquireBecause politicians will be politicians no matter what religion
they belong to. If Romney is supposed to be so great because he is Mormon, why
does he seem to look and act like every other candidate we have ever had? The
political game of getting elected has become a science, and some are able to
take it beyond that to an art form. The tactics used in an election are taught
and trained into the candidates so that these people are not running on what
they believe in, but simply trying to look like a better option than the other
guy. Polticians everywhere realize that religion is a big part of that. I wish
those politicians that are LDS would hold themselves to a higher standard than
that, but they play the game just as much as the next guy.
Thank you Reverend Myke Crowder and others for parting ways with Dr. Robert
Jeffress when considering whether or not Mormons are Christians. Do we not
remember a time, during the reformation, when Martin Luther, Calvin and other
reformists were considered heretics by the "orthodox" or
"traditional" church of their time? They,too, believed there were
flaws in the "traditional" church and sought "reform" to
come more in line with truth. They lost their lives, occupations, reputations,
etc. for standing up for what they believed but they did a great service for ALL
Christians today. Perhaps that will one day be said of The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints. The only difference between what Joseph Smith did
and the early "reformers" is that through him, God
"restored" the fulness of his gospel, rather than trying to put
"new wine into old bottles," as the Bible says, that would burst
because they could not endure the "new wine."
Flashback,Pastor Crowder is a very good man, but he has done his
share of anti-LDS sermons, tapes, etc. I know this because I have copies of
them. Evangelicals, etc. can consider Mormons good people but still have no
doubt that Mormons are condemned to hell for eternity, period. This is a divide
they cannot bridge due to the theological differences that neither side is going
to give up on.
Bottom line, I think Mormons are Christian. However, people fail to
see the double standard that Mormons, stopped calling THEMSELVES, part of the
Christian-and-seperate very much FAITH (i.e. Christianity)... years
ago. i.e. do you call Mormons 'christians'...? Or,
The Bible tells us how to behave; the Book of Mormon shows how to have our heart
changed. There is only one enemy: the devil---------other churches are not
the enemy. Fortunately the Book of Mormon warns us more about the devil than
the Bible does.
@coleman51"I was a former Methodist and converted to the Church when
I was 19 years old."Same with me, I remember my methodist
pastor noting that being LDS is definitely Christian and that being LDS wouldn't
hinder ones chances of getting into heaven relative to other denominations. @Iron Rod"People say things about Mormons that they would
never say about blacks, hispanics, Cathoics or Jews,"Oh people
they definitely say things about Catholics (try The Bible facebook page) and
there are plenty of people who think blacks are poor because they're lazy and
hispanics are all illegal immigrants and drug dealers. @David
KingUsually I want to tell Ron Paul fans to grow up but in this instance
you are right. The lack of coverage about the actual winner of this summit is
disappointing. Maybe if Romney got out of the single digits we'd be able to read
"Huntsman, interviewed on CNN on Monday, described Jeffress as a
"moron."Not Presidential, John, but I like it!
The evangelical argument is that LDS people believe that 1. the LDS idea of
Jesus being the son of god and not the embodiment of god and the holy spirit is
heretical. and 2. The LDS to believe that they may become like god, to elevate
humanity to god like status is heretical. As a member of the LDS
faith all I can say is those are true statements. 1. Jesus Christ is my savior
and the only begotten son of god. He atoned for the sins of all humanity and
mine personally. 2. God is our Father in Heaven and the father of our spirits.
I know of no father that wouldn't want their children to have all that they
A cult is defined as an organization that is based on a personality. Would that
make Christianity a cult since it is based on the person of Jesus? Alternatively
it is a religion that is not accepted by the majority of a particular
population. Does that make Christianity a cult in Indonesia or Afghanistan?
Labeling anything as a cult is the dyslexics way of saying I don't like an
organization and I'm going to insult it.
When I think of a cult I think of charismatic leaders that use there power to
take advantage of followers such as through sexual acts, labor, or monetary
donations. I think of secret circles of chanting devotees. I think of tight
knit groups that separate themselves from the world, that dislike anybody that
leaves the group. I think of people that are encouraged to all dress and groom
the same. People that will do anything their leaders tell them. etc.I don't know what the technical definition of a cult is, but things like this
are what make me think a group is a cult.
The Dallas pastor's comments are outrageous, unkind, uncharitable, offensive,
harmful, inflammatory, ill-timed, ignorant, and just plain untrue.
The only thing in this world right now that prevents religions from all out
battle, is the American government. And as the religions have become stronger,
and our government headed for failure, the war is starting to heat up.
I have witnessed very loud and very chaotic Evangelical prayer meetings that
ended up with a room full of people lying on the floor, convulsing, with saliva
falling from their lips while speaking jibberish, claiming to be possessed by
the spirit and "speaking in tongues".I felt very
uncomfortable and believed that they were certainly possessed. Despite all that
I saw and heard, I never believed for a moment that these Evangelicals were not
children of God and true believers in Jesus Christ. Notwithstanding theological
differences, I hope that all people of all religious persuasions will look
beyond those differences and just try to befriend and serve as the Master would
have us do. None of us that are trying to stay close to the Savior
will be lost or damned, regardless of church affiliation if we just serve each
other. After all, is it better to right or to be helpful?
The LDS gospel is very much Christ centered. Whether or not some of the members
are true Christians is a question to be considered .. but that topic could be
discussed about members in any religion. Take a look at some of posts on
controversial topics on the boards and ask yourself .. was that member's post
Good for Rev. Crowder whom I would consider to be a real Christian. What do you
expect from Rev. Jeffress who most likely passes out copies of 'THe Godmakers'
at political rallys.
The comments made is just enough for me not to vote for Perry. We are ready have
a crazy man in there...I for one do not want another one...
The reason this is being focused on is because Rick Perry is associated with
Jeffress. Like it or not, he CHOSE Jeffress. Now he is trying to distance
himself since it backfired. Perry knew what he was getting--the First Baptist
Church of Dallas has been spewing anti-Mormon lies for decades. I've lived in
the Dallas area all my life (except for my BYU years). You should have seen the
shenanigans they pulled when the temple was being built. It was organized and
hateful. This little stunt was no accidental stumble on Perry's part. He is
revealing himself---take note.
In 1631, Roger Williams, a separatist, came to Boston. He was forced to flee
several years later because his strange religious views were not well received.
In 1635 he founded Rhode Island colony. He was a champion of religious liberty,
separation of church and state and democratic government. In 1638 he founded
the first Baptist Church in America.Good Brother Williams must be
rolling in his grave when he hears the intolerant, small-souled opinions blabbed
by believing Baptists in 2011 about members of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints.How far they have come from their roots. May we be forgiving, kind and learn from their foolish behavior.
Iron Rod,Maybe you are looking for something a bit stronger.They are called Danites.I'm not sure if they are still
I think the response from other Republican candidates is actually more
interesting. For instance, Michelle Bachmann called for tolerance (of Mormons).
Essentially, she said that Republicans should tolerate Mormons because even
though their religion is so distasteful, their politics are similar enough that
we don't want to lose them, yet we do not want to offend the Southern Baptists
and others who are more intolerant than I am. Other Republican candidates have
basically said that they accept the claims by Mormons that they are Christians,
"if they say so", while basically winking at the intolerant wing of
their party.I will admit I am not a Mormon. I am not a Republican.
But I have actually voted for Mormon Republicans before- and, living in Utah, it
is often a choice between a Democratic Mormon and a Republican Mormon. I look at
the politics and pragmatic reality when I vote. But many Republicans outside of
Utah are intolerant of anyone who does not meet their definition of
"Christian" (I.e. Evangelical). I cannot understand why there is such
a lack of criticism of these attitudes by Utah Republicans, Jon Huntsman being
The most interesting thing to me about this is the notion that people feel they
need to elect someone to office who espouses their faith. I think that is as
wrong for Mormons as it is for Southern Baptists. Any political leader should be
the best person for the job period, not the best person for the job who attends
our church. And that is how the LDS Church looks at it. Vote for the one who
will be the best to move our great country forward, be he Catholic, Baptist,
Muslum, Mormon, or atheist, as long as he will help enact laws that do not
infringe upon our foundational freedoms. The beauty of this country is you can
worship God as you see fit without fearing retribution.If the person
you believe to be best suited to lead our country happens to also embrace your
faith, that is fine and dandy. But please, do not make his religion be your
Read the history of this great country. In the 1800's who were the people that
were killiing many of the members of the LDS Church in Missouri, who were the
men that murdered the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum, although they
were locked up in Jail.Who were the people that burned a Sacred Buildings owned
by the LDS Church, who were the people that forced the members of the church to
flee Ohio, then Illinois to walk across this continent. I suggest that people
start reading their history. And who were the men that left their families on
the plains to make the longest military march in History to protect this great
country? Do those belonging to other churchs that call LDS a cult, do they
know what a Cult is? grandmagreat
It's like you need to apply for chrisitianity now, with all these unknown
qualifiers, in that case there must also be a best christian religion, and it is
called the church of J.C. that's right, the church of Jazz Cop.accept jesus in your heart--checkabstinence-checkseven
virtues-checkhates the devil-check$125 check for application
The saddest thing about all this is the hypocrisy. Ive never encountered
someone, who believes the Church of Jesus Christ to be non-Christian, who can
give a definition of Christianity that accurately excludes it. Every so-called
reason Ive ever heard also applies to other groups that these people *do*
recognize as Christian, and often include groups from their own churchs
ostensible history!People need to get a life.
Re: "Local clergy weigh in"It's kind and gracious of these
men of God to give an honest assessment of their neighbors' actions and
attitudes, but I think Pastor Mitchell's answer hits the nail on the head --
are Mormons Christians? "That is an individual question," Pastor
Mitchell said. "I am not God and do not know anyone's heart."Another way of saying it -- if we're accused of being Christians, would there
be enough evidence to convict?As we know, questions by friends, even
enemies, of our status as Christians, are a matter of surpassing indifference to
our standing before the Lord. How we handle these questions may be illustrative
of our status, however.These questions provide an opportunity for
reflection, to examine whether our actions may have given cause to question our
status. But that questioning, whether sincere or disingenuous, should never be
used as an excuse for unchristian conduct on our part. Are Mormons
Christians? If our real concern is how the Lord would answer that question, the
rest will take care of itself.
Re: Iron Rod -- "Perhaps we ought to form some thing like the Anti
Defamation League which is used quite effectively by the Jewish Faith or the
NAACP which is used by the Blacks to conter these misconceptions."I believe we do. They are called missionaries. Every member. :)
The Jews thought Jesus was the leader of a cult. They thought that killing Him
would destroy His Church. It didn't. In his day the enemies of Joseph Smith
thought they could destroy the LDS Church by killing him. They didn't. Today
members of the LDS Church are found all around the earth, and their numbers are
growing daily. Why do people worry about Romney's faith when we've
banned Jesus from our schools and public meetings?
Iron Rod wrote, "Rather than ignore attacks on our faith perhaps we ought
to do what other minorities do, form groups to actively challenge these
misconceptions."Already done. They're called Wards and Stakes.
Jeffress is enjoying his 15 minutes of fame.
Why do conservatives keep pulling religion into politics, any way? Even in Utah
it is done as a tool to suppress the other political party (I guess I have
answered my own question, right?. So, Mormons, you don't like it when done on
the national level, so why do you engage in it here in Utah?
The first mistake Evangelicals make in this situation is assuming they own the
rights to define "Christianity".The second mistake they
make is to define a Christian is someone who "subscribes to classical
Christian creeds and doctrines", when NOT A SINGLE Protestant or Catholic
denomination is in perfect agreement on all doctrines. That is why
they split in the first place and great divides exist today: They had
differences of opinion. Even one parish differs from another based on the
beliefs and style of its preacher. They have ignored the charge from Paul in
Ephesians 4:13 to come to a "unity of the faith". A fact which could
lead one to question THEIR Christianity, I think, hmm? ;)
I appreciate that large group of born again clergy voting us Mormons out of
their circle. I hate to think of us in such diminished, uninformed terms as they
I loved the line in this response about how we're choosing a chief executive
officer of the country, not chief pastor. It is a wise thing to seperate
religious authority from secular, and imo, it's dangerous to think otherwise.
Many religious leaders have terrible governance skills... just look to the
middle-east for evidence of that.
Praise God for people like "Just Thinking Outloud" from Merrimack,
NH!!! I didn't know such people existed. You have absolutely hit the nail on the
head.The DN article about the local pastor was encouraging. As a
former member of the Baptist church, if those pastors being surveyed about
"are Mormons Christians?"are anything like the pastors at my old
church, it would be hard for them to make an informed decision because the ideas
they passed on to our congregation about who Mormons are and what they believe
were far from the truth. They did not know enough about the doctrines of Christ
which we as Latter Day Saints hold sacred to be able to judge us - not that
others should be judging us anyway-. As in most cases in this world, ignorance
is the root of much evil and misunderstanding.
I've seen maybe four or five articles now published by the Deseret News
rehashing one statement made by one person during the Values Voters Summit, but
never did I see the winner of the Summit's straw poll even mentioned. It was
Ron Paul, by the way.Why do we as people and the media let one
outspoken pastor define the entire political conversation for the nation? We
could be talking about jobs, the economy, the wars overseas, budget deficits,
securing our borders, immigration reform, health care, the value of our
currency, or any number of things more important than this. I urge the Deseret
News and all media to ignore the sideshows and report on the most important
issues in the selection of a president.
I think I could accept someone saying we are outside of historical Christianity.
I prefer the term traditional to historical because of differences that exist
between modern Christianity and the primitive church.Our differences
with other, modern Christian denominations are, in part, key to our religious
claims. But to say we are not Christians is another thing entirely. It pains
me to see the religion I love portrayed as anything less than the powerful
advocate for the Savior which I have experienced it to be.We fall
victim (please don't read more into that word) to the No True Scotsman argument.
In this, the speaker defines a group to exclude all not in full agreement with
their point of view. Essentially, they draw the definitional circle tightly
around themselves.This is NOT an argument we can cede to our
critics. To do so means we give up part of our ability to forcefully advocate
for the Savior and his doctrines. In order to do his work, we must be
undeniably understood to stand on his side.Untraditional? Sure.
Non-historical? Depends on what you know of history. But non-Christian? NO.
Not now, not ever.
Unsaid feelingsIf 75 percent of the 1000 evangelic pastors responded
to the survey that Mormons were not Christians, I think we can accurately judge
what they are teaching their flocks.Rather than ignore attacks on
our faith perhaps we ought to do what other minorities do, form groups to
actively challenge these misconeptions.People say things about
Mormons that they would never say about blacks, hispanics, Cathoics or Jews, Why
because they are challenged if they do.Perhaps we ought to form some
thing like the Anti Defamation League which is used quite effectively by the
Jewish Faith or the NAACP which is used by the Blacks to conter these
It really doesn't matter what others think of the LDS. They believe how they
believe and it's no one elses business. It was a thoughtless comment on the
Texas pastors' part and it has no bearing on who should be president. Because it
occurred where Mr. Perry was speaking created a situation that he apologized for
and that should be the end of it (IMHO).
I honestly don't know how anyone would not believe that Christ plays a deeply
meaningful and central role in the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints. I was a former Methodist and converted to the Church when I
was 19 years old. The reason I converted was because of my reading of the Book
of Mormon. One cannot come away from reading that book without a deeper
understanding of the role of Jesus Christ and his atonement. The Book of Mormon
is the most convincing book in this world on understanding and coming to know
the Savior. Those who deny that Latter-Day Saints are not Christian are basing
it on a very arcane or diluted understanding of the Savior or else they simply
don't want to know the truth.
I'm not criticizing Reverend Myke Crowder, but simply remarking that
"impolite" is a very nice way of putting it. Someone saying that I and
millions of others don't have the right to the 1st amendments protections is far
more than impolite, it's borderline on a lot of things that I doubt I need to
mention here.My biggest concern is that so many evangelicals agree
with some outrageous lies I've had the misfortune of learning about. An
evangelical apologized in the tabernacle, saying that they've 'sinned against
us, and made conspiracy theories against us', etc. This is my primary concern...
with how many people I've either known, met, or seen that follow those ideas and
cling to them... how many would be willing to listen to Jeffres's 1st amendment
comment and would be inclined to agree with him?I don't care what
people believe, but the second they start needlessly attacking others beliefs
they have gone down the wrong road. I hate thinking about where that road ends
and how many people have made it all the way down. I can say one thing though,
that road is definitively not the straight and narrow, not of Christ at all.
Thank you, Reverend Crowder.
I view the LDS as Christian, but they are not Catholic or Protestant. In my
opinion their unique teachings do not diminish the great message of Christ. They
do not take anything from my strongly held faith.But I do consider
them legitimate Christians. Their reason for a restoration was to move away from
the changes brought about as Christianity evolved over the centuries. I have to
be honest that there have been many, many changes since Christ walked the earth.
Historical changes to Christianity are documented, and undisputed by most
non-LDS theologians. To find out for yourself, study from the most excellent
sources you can find. Start with the creeds to which the modern religions
adhere. The Nicene Creed, written about 325AD, or The Athanasian Creed (5-9th
century) is a place to start. Don't just read what someone says about them-
actually read them. It is my belief that the reformers had good reason to
challenge the theological leaders of that day. Protestant reformers
were not viewed as historical, authentic Christians either. The leaders of
Catholicism viewed them as heretic's. In spite of that, the followers of the
reformers knew they worshiped and loved Christ.