Readers' forum: Jeffress' Romney attack


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  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 13, 2011 8:13 a.m.

    Good point on all the of ultra conservatives relentlessly attacking the Obama as a Muslim and follower of a non mainstream religion, then pulling out the Constitution and common decency for their religion.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Oct. 12, 2011 11:18 a.m.

    To "Twin Lights | 9:56 p.m." sorry taht I missed Sutton's post.

    The point of my post is still the same. It is the liberals the keep bringing up an Obama-Muslim connection, not conservatives.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:56 p.m.


    Please go back and reread the thread.

    Sutton had called conservatives hypocrites for beating Pres. Obama up about being a Muslim.

    Sutton brought up the point because many conservatives were upset about Romney being sandbagged for his religion but had remained silent when this happened to the President. A fair point for those this applies to.

    The point of my post was to defend conservatives and to tell Sutton that many conservatives were not okay with the religious attacks on the President. I then noted that there was no credible evidence that the President is a Muslim. Also, that even if a candidate were a Muslim, the constitutional injunction against a religious test should be strictly followed.

    Note that my response was a defense of reasonably-minded conservatives. How does this qualify me as a liberal?

    Is it your belief that that liberals are in the habit of defending conservatives? Did you understand that my post was in response to another poster? That is, did you know the context of what I said?

    At a minimum, do you admit that your post was factually incorrect and a gross misstatement of my position?

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:37 p.m.

    To "Twin Lights | 7:59 p.m. " but you still were the first to bring up the subject, and that is the point.

    From your posts, you typically side with the liberals, pushing for more government intervention in our lives.

    Again, you were the first commenter to bring up Obama being a Muslim.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 11, 2011 7:59 p.m.


    You said "The next person who claimed that Obama was a Muslim was "Twin Lights" at 8:54 a.m., again, another liberal."

    Did you read my post? It said "there is zero credible evidence that he is a Muslim."

    On what planet can that be interpreted as claiming that Pres. Obama is a Muslim? It was the precise opposite of that. Please, at least be honest about what I (and others) have said. It is the true conservative way.

    The problem I have with folks linking Pres. Obama to being a Muslim is that it is done by so-called conservatives to sandbag him. It is an obvious lie and the propagation of that lie makes conservatives look stupid to the voting public.

    As to my being a liberal. I do not claim to be a conservative in the current mode. Rather, I am a conservative from the Reagan/Bush I era. I value honest debate about real issues. Not the current hysteria about non-issues.

    That you (or anyone else) would interpret that as being liberal is exactly why so many conservatives feel excluded from the current movement and, by extension, the Republican Party.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 6:14 p.m.

    The issue is a no brainer if you know your Constitution. As one contributoer wrote: it's Constitution 101. Anyone who seeks to impose/promotes the imposition of a religious test for any federal government office should not be allowed within a mile of the White House, figuratively speaking.

    Still that doesn't make Romney a great candidate. Most of the people want to end to the imbroglio in the Middle East, bringing troops home. Romney seem very much at odds with that, and is he really credible on government health care systems? We don't want 'em.

    Then we should take a look at Cain: a NINE PERCENT NATIONAL SALES TAX!! Wake up America! We'd be paying the feds nine percent (to start with, that is. sales taxes almost always increase. Add that to six to seven percent State sales tax; Let's see that's a surcharge of over fifteen percent on purchases, just for starters. Income tax? Just end it! CUT SPENDING.

    Eliminate the hawks and the taxers and last man standing is Ron Paul, the media cannot discredit him and they don't want to remind us about him. A high recommendation I think.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Oct. 11, 2011 4:51 p.m.

    "you merely cherry picked facts in order to justify being offended"

    2 thinkgs

    I can assure you that I am not offended. Amused Yes, offended, no.
    I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of those who actually ARE offended

    Cherry picked facts? Aren't my "facts" the whole basis for the LDS religion?

  • goitalone w bountiful, ut
    Oct. 11, 2011 4:47 p.m.

    The plain fact of the matter is this.If the tea party or Ron Paul succeed in splitting the GOP, it will guarantee an Obama victory. Can anyone say Ross Perot. paid his way in, got Clinton elected and then disappeared off the face of the planet.

    It is a sorry state of affaies when you must choose the lesser of two evils instead of the better of two goods. Parse that any way you lean politically and it works.

  • tenx Santa Clara, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 4:36 p.m.

    First Huckabee now this Dr. Whats his name. Guess some southerners still live in the hills and drink moonshine (kool aid). 50 years ago I worked in the South and the boss when hearing I was a Mormon asked how many wives I had. I replied without as much as a slight smile, FIVE. He believed me!! So I guess I am guilty of perpetuating some myths about Mormons.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 2:55 p.m.

    @ RedShirt, your evidence is based on comments on this site? Wow, talk about a strong position (not - wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't serious).

  • Owl Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 2:44 p.m.

    JoeBlow | 10:05 a.m. Oct. 11, 2011

    Joe, You've got that right. Disagreeing is different than name calling, particularly if the name (cult) has no defining quality other than to insult. Someone can say you are tragically (pick your adjective) wrong, but not call you an insulting name for being wrong. All religions think the other person is wrong or else they would merge into one as resulted in the United Church of Canada.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 2:23 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal | 1:02 p.m. " and "Blue | 1:26 p.m." you botha really should work on following a thread. If you did, you would find that the first person to bring up Obama being a muslim was not me, or even a conservative. It was the liberal known as "Sutton" at 7:33 a.m. The next person who claimed that Obama was a Muslim was "Twin Lights" at 8:54 a.m., again, another liberal.

    From the evidence here, it appears that liberals have a bigger problem with any link to Obama being a muslim than any conservative does.

    Why do you, and others of your ilk project so much onto Conservatives?

    So, Blue, apparently what you say is true, those who bring up Obama being a Muslim do have a problem with it. The problem is that it is your fellow liberals who bring it up and dwell on it all the time.

    Yes, Obama is a liberal, and when he was a Senator was named the most liberal Senator in 2007. Both CNN and the National Journal labled him as the most liberal.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 1:26 p.m.

    "Personally I don't care what religion he is..."

    Baloney. Of course you do. You wouldn't have even brought it up except for your fixation on Muslims. Only in your fevered dreams is Obama a Muslim, and even if he was, so what? Are you equating being Muslim with being unfit for office? Didn't we cover that subject in the Constitution, above?

    "Your liberal President is killing this nation..."

    More baloney. Two things:

    1) the cause of our current economic mess isn't who's in charge now, it's who was in charge when Wall Street decided our investments were casino chips and they were the high-rollers.

    2) Obama is a liberal? Ha! I only wish! He's caved to every greedy, childish demand made by the Republicans and their corporate masters. I pains me that he hasn't had the backbone to tell Mr. Boehner and his kleptocratic buddies to either grow up or take a hike.

    But isn't the purpose of this discussion to talk about how completely nuts it is for people to render judgement on political candidates based on who is or is not a "true" member of the dominant faith?

    What are we, Iran?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 1:02 p.m.

    RedShirt | 12:26 p.m. Oct. 11, 2011
    USS Enterprise, UT

    "Answer this, is living in a country for 4 years and having a Muslim father enough to at least say that there may be a link?

    "Personally I don't care what religion he is..."


    You can't possibly really mean that RedShirt.
    Who could possibly take you seriously with Double-speak like that?

    Why else would you keep bringing up the question that Obama "might" be a secret Mulsim?

    Being Honest with your fellow man, begins with being Honest with yourself.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:44 p.m.

    RedShirt | 8:05 a.m. Oct. 11, 2011
    USS Enterprise, UT
    To "Esquire | 7:24 a.m" I have never heard " that you cannot be a good member of the church and be a Democrat." I have heard that you cannot fully accept the LDS doctrine and be a liberal, and that is easily proven.


    Why must you lie RedShirt?
    Even you have been quoted as saying Democrats can't be good Mormons.

    FYI - Jesus, Joseph Smith, and our Founding Fathers were all "Liberals".

    And just so the DN will STOP censoring my comment, I will reference a common English Language Dictionary:

    lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl)

    1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
    2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
    3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.

    1. A person with liberal ideas or opinions.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:26 p.m.

    To "Blue | 11:47 a.m." what are you talking about? I never said anything about a religious test or anything else along those lines. Apparently you have your adgenda to promote, so here is my rebuttal.

    If you bothered to read Truthseeker's post, you would see that he claimed that there was absolutely no evidence to link Obama to being a Muslim. From Obama's own books, we find out that he lived in a highly Muslim country for 4 years, and had a father who was muslim.

    Answer this, is living in a country for 4 years and having a Muslim father enough to at least say that there may be a link?

    Personally I don't care what religion he is, my concern is if he will help the country or destroy it. Your liberal President is killing this nation, and you are cheering him on. Look at the Wall Street protestors, they are protesting against Obama's policies while they are calling for socialism.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:20 p.m.

    I don't care what they say about him. He shouldn't be elcted over Ron Paul. I don't want Mitt as my president I wouldn't even want him as my mayor.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:04 p.m.

    I could care less whether the President were Muslim or Christian. Just fix this country!

    The sooner we get over this worrying about the President's religion issue, the better!

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 11:47 a.m.

    RedShirt: "...(H)e lived in Indonesia for 4 years where 88.2% of the population is Muslim? Or do we have to ignore the fact that his father was Muslim? How much evendence pointing to Obama's Islamic ties to we have to ignore so that your statement can be true?"

    Let's review Civics 101:

    From the U.S. Constitution, Article 6, Paragraph 3: "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

    RedShirt, with your comment you've become the poster child for everything that is wrong with the immune-to-reality theocrats currently dragging the GOP around by a nose-ring.

    Republicans, what are you going to do about this?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 11:25 a.m.

    I will note however, that while as a liberal my views are very much in the minority of the LDS church (when I was a member, Gallup survey 7% of LDS members are liberal, 1% very liberal) most LDS members respected my political differences. While I have a sizable number of instances of people not doing so I was able to distinguish that from being any sort of majority position. Unfortunately, that Gallup survey shows that 20% of inactive LDS members are liberal. When you do the math with these stats
    8% of all LDS members are liberal/very liberal
    20% of inactive LDS members are liberal/very liberal
    79% of LDS members are active

    you get the result that ~50% of liberal LDS members are inactive. That's a huge number considering the overall inactivity rate is 21% in that poll. There is a sizable portion of the liberal LDS demographic that I imagine just does not feel welcome at church and probably have had a few instances like I had of criticism over their political views which caused them to leave (I left over lack of belief in doctrine, not political issues though those didn't help any).

  • Brother Chuck Schroeder A Tropical Paradise USA, FL
    Oct. 11, 2011 11:03 a.m.


    How many people ever said that Mormonism is a cult?. The Mormon Church collects at least $6 billion a year from its members, and generates at least another $5 billion in sales from its various business enterprises, total church assets exceed $30 billion. (At least 100 companies are controlled by the Mormon Church, and some estimate its total annual revenues in excess of $20 billion! The church also owns 18 radio stations in the U.S.) Part of the Church's income goes to operate an elaborate internal welfare system so its members avoid any governmental assistance. WHY DON'T THEY USE THIS ANYMORE?. "THE SEVENTEEN POINTS OF THE TRUE CHURCH?." Just a few here:

    Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)

    The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

    The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

    Surveys show - ASK FAIR - the Apologist?. What the heck do they know anyway?. Nothing.

    You be that judge.

    I told you I would tell you the truths, I didn't say you would like them.

    These are my views, not yours.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 10:24 a.m.

    "Obama made a bigoted suggestion to the GOP that They can come for the ride, but they gotta sit in back."

    As a white guy I have to say that that sort of thing can only even be considered bigoted if the target of that comment was black due to the historical context. Otherwise you're just reaching for something to take offense to.

    "His problem now is that any candidate that is still breathing will beat him in 2012. "

    Head to head polls show obama trouncing everyone not named Romney while vs Romney it's too close to call (Romney up by less than a point based on an average of the 8 most recent polls).

    As a liberal who was LDS for four years I've heard that I'm following satan's politics, that it would be better if my political views were more aligned with God's, that I'm disobeying the prophet, that I need to see the bishop over my political views, and those are from 4 different people from my wards.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 10:14 a.m.

    Most Americans and especially democrats, don't even know of this. It doesn't have the same coverage in other areas as it has here. People tend to only watch so much news, this probably passed by as "some nut pastor said something nutty, tell me something new".

    Surveys show that Republicans are more willing to vote for LDS members than Democrats but their reasons for unwillingness are different in nature. With Republicans it's their belief the LDS church is a cult. With Democrats... they remember Prop 8 and their reasons are political in nature (they also know that Mormons are generally conservatives). 4 years ago liberals were more willing to vote for Mormons than conservatives. That reversal is probably due to Prop 8. Now every Mormon has to go through the Prop 8 question to get support from a sizable chunk of Democrats.

  • Brother Chuck Schroeder A Tropical Paradise USA, FL
    Oct. 11, 2011 10:05 a.m.

    Well, if People will wolf down stale popcorn out of habit while listening to Glenn Beck, they'll believe anything anyone says. Rush Limbaugh would ask, is Capitalism a Religion?. Libertarians? Tea Partiers?. Then he would say, "with all of the discussion on Reverend Robert Jeffress's statement that Mormonism is a cult, I agree with him. Mormonism fits the definition of a cult". According to the Random House dictionary, a "cult" is a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies, a group or false sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc; a religion or sect considered to be, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader; the members of such a religion or sect. Let us break down each section of the definition of a cult, as it relates to the religion of Mormonism: "A particular system of religious worship, exp. With reference to its rites and ceremonies": Mitt Romney has participated in the secret Mormon Temple ceremonies throughout most of his life. THAT'S HOW Rush would put it.

    ONLY Jesus Christ can honestly say such a thing.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Oct. 11, 2011 10:05 a.m.

    Just so I understand.

    It is ok to say that

    "all other churches are "wrong," all their creeds an "abomination," and all who profess them are "corrupt"

    As long as you don't say they are not Christian or call them a cult?

    Do I have that right?

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:54 a.m.

    To "Esquire | 8:44 a.m." I can give you examples of people who regularly post on these boards about how their liberalism is in direct conflict with LDS doctrine if you want.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:51 a.m.

    Blame Sesame Street. They taught us a song about "one of these things is not like the other". Its obvious that Mormons are different from other Christians. One can celebrate the difference, or shun from the spotlight when it shines upon you.

  • Murray1 SOUTH JORDAN, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:57 a.m.

    Where has common decency, respect and civility to your fellow man gone these days?? And why so much vitriol over how a man/woman/child decides to worship as long as their belief system is not harmful to another? Where there was once tolerance, there now is hatred (Westboro Baptists, etc.). And what gives anyone the right to say, "You and your religion are NOT Christian"? Ok, so you have your opinions, and feel strongly about YOUR beliefs. Reverse the role and ask yourself how you would feel/react if a certain religious group decided to attack you personally by telling you, oh, by the way, you're not a Christian?

    I just don't get how anyone professing to be a true follower of Jesus Christ can honestly say such a thing. How about live and let live and let God be the Judge, which is how most Christians believe it will work out in the end anyway.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:54 a.m.


    Some may be hypocrites, but not all. I know many conservatives who were very dismayed at the attacks on Pres. Obama's religion.

    First, there is no reasonable way to interpret Pres. Obama's life as other than Christian and there is zero credible evidence that he is a Muslim.

    Second, even if another candidate were to emerge who was a Muslim (or of some other religion - too many to name), that should not be reason to exclude him or her from office.

    The Founding Fathers were adamant that there be no religious test. We should be similarly adamant.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:44 a.m.

    @ RedShirt, you need to get out more. Decades of experience in politics in Utah, I've heard it plenty. It really started with the rise of the new right - particularly the advent of Orrin Hatch, Reagan and the ERA. And also, I could make the same argument that you can't be a good conservative and accept LDS doctrine. What this amounts to is your definition of LDS doctrine, not the reality of LDS doctrine.

  • isrred Logan, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:22 a.m.

    "Another thing you forget is the simple fact that people want somebody who reflects their values, and who better than a member of their own church."

    So I suppose you plan on supporting Harry Reid?

    Mitt Romney, Jason Chaffetz, Chris Buttars, et al all share the same LDS faith but their political views do not represent a large number of Latter-day Saints

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:05 a.m.

    To "Esquire | 7:24 a.m" I have never heard " that you cannot be a good member of the church and be a Democrat." I have heard that you cannot fully accept the LDS doctrine and be a liberal, and that is easily proven.

    Another thing you forget is the simple fact that people want somebody who reflects their values, and who better than a member of their own church. Think about it, could a devout Muslim fully represent a group of athiests?

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Oct. 11, 2011 7:48 a.m.

    Re: The Real Maverick | 12:07 a.m. Oct. 11, 2011
    "Romney has been bashing them for months now, they're called Democrats"

    Obama made a bigoted suggestion to the GOP that They can come for the ride, but they gotta sit in back. His problem now is that any candidate that is still breathing will beat him in 2012. The only question now is whether Obama will even get the Democratic presidential nomination to run in 2012.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 7:41 a.m.

    "Shouldn't all Americans passionately object to an attack on any of our precious American freedoms?"


    Absolutely. Now, where were the Mormons when the freedoms of GKBT Americans were under attack by Prop-8 and Amendment-3? Oh, yeah. They were leading the charge and spearheading these attacks on our freedoms.

    You reap what you sow.

    "First they came for the..."

  • Sutton Cedar City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 7:33 a.m.

    What a bunch of hypocrites conservatives are...

    It's perfectly, "OK" for them to degrade Obama's religion by hatefully calling him a, "Muslim" (As if being a Muslim is somehow, "evil" and "wrong")... but now that the shoe is on the other foot we all need to be, "civil"????

    I haven't heard one word from you all condemning that... so why should we all feel bad when it is one of yours being malign viciously?

    Sorry... but as long as Obama is a, "Muslim" then Romney is a, "Cultist"... You can't have it both ways.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 7:24 a.m.

    I find it ironic that Mormons complain about religion being used as a political tool when they themselves engage in the same practice. How many times have we heard in this state that you cannot be a good member of the church and be a Democrat? There is much more to be said on this with other actions and speeches, but bringing religion into politics is not a good thing and is contrary to the wisdom of the Founding Fathers. Yet Mormons do it also when it is politically expedient.

  • isrred Logan, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 7:16 a.m.

    "The other question is where were the defenders of America's liberties following this bigoted attack? Fellow Mormons? "

    The strongest defenders have been DEMOCRATS. Utah Democrats have been on national television and have released several statements against the mormon-phobia of the right wing.

    Voting against (or for) someone simply based on their religion is lazy.

  • Brett Marietta, GA
    Oct. 11, 2011 6:13 a.m.

    Santorum was not the only one who defended Romney, nearly all media outlets blasted Jeffress.

    Though I doubt Romney needed any defense at all. I am sure he is secure in his beliefs.

    I wasn't offended (I chose not to be offended) by what Jeffress said. I just learned that I don't really value what he has to offer.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 6:10 a.m.

    Thirty or so years ago Republican strategists concluded that the politicizing Evangelical Christians would help the party, so they did. They rallied the fundamentalists and told them that GOP stood for "God's Own Party."

    Now their monster has broken free and is laying waste to the political landscape. The GOP mullahs are only too happy to use religion as a political bludgeon.

    The party of Reagan, Eisenhower, even Goldwater, is no more. Those three stalwart conservatives would be booed out of any "values voters summit" on the basis of their beliefs and accomplishments. Heaven help them if they showed up at a Utah state GOP convention.

    Republicans, you made this mess, don't expect anyone else to clean it up.

  • Richard Saunders Provo, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 5:52 a.m.

    "Only non-Mormon fellow presidential candidate Rick Santorum strongly defended Romney's right to worship"

    That simply isn't true. Ron Paul and Newt Gingrich both defended Romney's right to worship, along with Huntsman of course, and then said there were more important things to talk about. Why should they be required to say any more than that? I suspect there are some who would not be satisfied unless the other candidates began campaigning for Romney.

  • Timj South Jordan, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 5:37 a.m.

    Jon Huntsman called the cult guy a "moron."

    Anderson Cooper did a pretty decent interview with the guy, attacking him for his views. Fox News? They just enabled him.

    If you're looking for defenders of Mormonism, right now you want to look to the middle and left (Huntsman and CNN). The right panders to the South, many of whom regard Mormons as a cult.

  • ljeppson Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:39 a.m.

    A cult graduates to a religion when it gets political power. All religions are cults. Settling that, what people want to know about Romney is whether there will be a hot line, so to speak, between President Monson's office and the Oval Office. The broader question deals with how much wiggle room Romney will have in implementing policy when the LDS church has taken a position on it. I don't think I've heard straight up answers yet.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:07 a.m.

    "The other question is where were the defenders of America's liberties following this bigoted attack?"

    Romney has been bashing them for months now, they're called Democrats. Why would they all of a sudden defend him after he's been bashing them ruthlessly without any reason?

    Those who are the biggest critics of Mormons? Romney's own GOP. This is exactly why he cannot win as a repub. The radical and crazy right, whose base is the bible belt south, will never allow a Mormon to be the GOP's candidate for the Presidency.

    Romney would have a better chance campaigning as the true Democrat that he is.