Evangelical leader says LDS Church is not a cult


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  • Free Agency Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 16, 2011 9:55 a.m.

    I wish people who tossed the word "cult" around would actually look up the definition of it. According to Merriam-Webster, Mormonism qualifies as a cult under most of the dictionary's definitions.

    But then, so does traditional Christianity--and every other religion.

    It seems that when a religion holds the biggest majority, it ceases being a cult and becomes "the Truth." Then it can claim minority religions are cults.

    But the fact is, they're *all* cults. Look it up.

  • JM Lehi, UT
    Oct. 15, 2011 12:44 p.m.

    The Church of Jesus Christ rejects Philosophers gods. That doesnt make us non-Christian-for we worship the Biblical Jesus.

    Many early Fathers asserted that Father and Son were separate and God is anthropomorphic but they eventually came to worship the God of the Philosophers as Tertullian admits.
    Plato: The Divine, The One, The Form.
    Xenophanes: One God, unborn, eternal, infinite, not movingbeyond imagination.
    Empedocles: does not possess limbs, is an inexpressible Spirit.
    Non-Biblical philosophers ideas were adopted by Schools and led to conflict over Christ. Some caved to the scientific arguments and mocking and conformed, and then lost some truths about Jesus.
    But, glorious arrangement, Jesus still gives truths through modern Apostles (who are also prophets). Sometimes Christians who dont yet understand this reject His words about His own nature, and these Christians adhere to the philosophers instead. Still, I love them and accept them as Christians. Most of them are good people, and im confident they will accept the truth when they see it without teh bias that comes from only hearing what others say about Mormons, and not what living Mormons say about their own faith in Christ.

  • JM Lehi, UT
    Oct. 15, 2011 12:43 p.m.

    @weber, donn, and other evangelicals.
    We can disagree and still be Christian. I have no need to go to Christian websites and to accuse, denounce and mislead, but oddly, many Christians feel a need to do so to LDS, and to claim inside knowledge on what LDS really believe, insisting LDS websites, the BofMormon etc dont contain LDS beliefs.
    We often disagree on the nature of Jesus. Thats ok. LDS accept Him as God, Father and Son (as the BofMormon teaches) separate from God His Father, we often call God His Father Elohim to avoid confusion.
    Some Christians reject our view that God was born, became man, lived on earth, died, learned, and kept that body.
    Some reject the idea that Gods children are meant to become as He is (not equally great, but glorified, immortal, Creators etc) even though Jesus calls those accepting His word gods (see John10), and plainly says His followers will sit with Him on the throne.

    Some of non-Biblical ideas which LDS dont accept came from pre-Christian pagan philosophers who influenced the schools of later Christians. Tertullian explained that he worshipped the God of these philosophers.

  • JM Lehi, UT
    Oct. 15, 2011 11:20 a.m.

    @weberstate, donn, sharonna, mighty, etc. I accept all who follow Christ as Christians, regardless of denominations. The BofMormon teaches that ..the Spirit of Christ is given to every manI show unto you the way to judge; for everything which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ
    This is what Mormons believe.
    Im not sure about those calling themselves Christians, who feel a need to come on the DN and etc, and attack and contend. And, ultimately, it is Jesus alone who is judge.

    You seem to insist that pre-Nicean Christians did not believe Jesus was as the BofMormon and Bible describe Him. I dont reject you as a Christian, even if you believe Patrapassionism, modalism, etc (the non-Biblical philosophers idea that the Father suffered on the Cross, being identical to the Son, 3 masks etc), still, a desire to follow Christ as God, as LDS do, qualifies you as a Christian in the broad sense.

    If you want to understand LDS relationship to true Christianity reread the BofM and for History try "Restoring the Ancient Church" by Bickmore etc.

  • WeberCatBasketballFan Midway, UT
    Oct. 12, 2011 9:18 p.m.

    Well said Stephen Bennett. Indeed, the anti-Nicean fathers... first and second century Christians... discipled by the disciples do not define the Deity of God or Christ in any way, shape, form or fashion the way the Book of Mormon does. Does that mean Mormons are not Christians... well, salvation is a personal state... between God and man directly and I believe there are those that know Christ unto salvation. I also believe there are evangelicals to profess to know Christ unto salvation and do not.

  • Stephen Bennett Mabou, Nova Scotia
    Oct. 12, 2011 2:17 p.m.

    Real questions whether Christian are are not those of popular opinion but as the apostle Paul addressed: But I fear , lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached , or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received , or another gospel, which ye have not accepted , ye might well [actually] bear with him.

    That the LDS church preaches "another" should be luminously clear, even as, for example, Brigham Young taught for a decade and a half that Adam was God, and Joseph Smith, who changed his ideas very drastically concerning the ontology of God after Book of Mormon was first published, that God was a man who had to earn/attain/merit/qualify actually becoming God. To classic or orthodox Christianity this representation as to Who God Is is absolutely appalling. Should all, however, love and therefore respect LDS? Certainly. Is anti-Mormon and anti-mormonism expression synonymous? Often not. Should all have freedom of speech? Truly.

  • Mamma C HEBER CITY, UT
    Oct. 12, 2011 12:06 p.m.

    Mr. Mouw is an outstanding example of civility, respect, and well-researched articulation. Thank you, Mr. Mouw.

  • joeyjr Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:08 p.m.

    "As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ."

    Prophet Hinckley

    This is why evangelicals to not consider Mormons as Biblical Christians. When Mormons chuck Joseph Smith then maybe we can have a dialogue.

  • @Charles the greater outdoors, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:32 p.m.

    What vain things of the world do I focus on? I'm so interested to hear this one.

    Why is it wrong of me to want to support and take care of my family? Isn't that part of the gospel plan? Yes sir it is.

    I don't see any Republican legislating away "sins". I see Liberals demanding that I give them my money so they can give it to their union buddies to continue to buy votes.

    Who is legislating food? Dems
    Drinks? Dems
    Foul language? Who?
    right to assemble? No one
    who to live with? No one
    Killing an unborn child is okay? Dems

    use of plastic bags? Dems
    no more Kid's meals? Dems
    homosexuality is normal and to be accepted? Dems
    CA bans tanning by teenagers but okays getting STD meds without parental approval or notification? Dems

    Liberals tend to be poor because liberal policies FAIL! USSR? Cuba? North Korea? New Orleans? Detroit? MI in general? WI until Repubs saved the day? NY? NJ until Christie came in?

    Your version of reality just doesn't exist.

    Why must you FORCE your version of morality on the nation through government edict? yes, your plan was rejected! Time to wise up!

  • @Charles the greater outdoors, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:17 p.m.

    Dear LDS Lib: your reply to me this morning made me chuckle. Oh the assumptions you make which are always incorrect.

    Let's look at the teachings of Christ:

    - Love your neighbor as yourself
    - give to the poor and the needy
    - be personally prepared and take care of your family needs
    - help those in need
    - thou shalt not kill
    - one is not worthy if he doesn't provide for his own family
    - 3 degrees of glory
    - one who gains more knowledge in this life will have an advantage in the life to come

    What I don't see is that these things are to be enforced through the stealing from one to make things equal with another. You must be confused as to who uses legislation to enact their Commie programs so they can FEEL better about themselves.

    It's been proven numerous times that Conservatives give more to charities than do Liberals. It's indisputable.

    It is my money and I don't want to pay for your Commie programs by force. Is it okay if I decide where I'd like my money to be spent helping those in need? Why do you get to make that decision for me and my family?

  • WeberCatBasketballFan Midway, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 7:55 p.m.

    @Bluto, @atl134 True Christians are not Protestants, the name given (by Bluto, Catholics and secularists in our country) to any religion that does not hold to Catholic teachings. True Christians hold to the teachings of 1st and 2nd century Christians before the council of Nice and birth of Catholicism (Christian apologists like Clement, Dyonysius, Hermas, Irenaeus, Martyr, Novatian, Origen, Polycarp and Tertullian to name a few). True Christians have always been a separate, distinct and often persecuted line of believers through history. All of these early Christian believed in monotheism (one God of all that is and ever was), and that the Word of God was/is the complete, inerrant, inspired Word of God, unchanging, the same yesterday, today and forever. Most true Christians believe that any religion that venerates an individual or holds to writings of an individual that are changing and/or separate from or in addition to the Word of God (the canonized Holy Bible) is a cult. It is as simple as that, not hate, not prejudice. I recommend "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs" by David Bercot that compiles the writings of the anti-Nicean fathers.

  • mightymite DRAPER, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 6:40 p.m.

    Only when Christ can send us a sign will we believe mormons are not a cult. All the evidence points to a cult and the attempted hijack of the one true choose shows a lot of brashness and disconnect in the teachings of Christ. Sorry but game over and the term "cult" fits very well within the small number of devout followers.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Oct. 11, 2011 4:52 p.m.

    It's called common sense with cognitive thinking. Pastor Jeffress is no authority of deity. Like Obama, confident loud speaking with a pep rally setting, does not make one all knowing. Fools follow that format.

  • Utah Native Farmington, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 1:38 p.m.

    I would define a cult as those who profit at the expense of their followers. Like all other pastors of enormous congregations in the South, wealthy Pastor Jeffress has made a fortune convincing his followers that they must follow him (and thus pay him) for their salvation. It's blatant hypocrisy for one who claims it's all about Jesus Christ when religion is simply a big (HUGE) business in the South. Mitt Romney is also rich, but he didn't make a dime of his money off his religious service. The message promoted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints is a threat to the livelihood of evangelical ministers. Their ministers HAVE to attack and use fear tactics or their followers become complacent, or even convert to the LDS faith.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 1:25 p.m.

    JoeCapitalist2 | 11:17 a.m. Oct. 11, 2011
    Orem, UT

    I sooooo beg to differ.

    1st - Lucifer sought to take away our Freedom to choose.
    Everyone would be forced to Choose the right, always.

    I see Conservatives passing laws restricting and eliminating anything they see as being "sin".
    Foul language, TV-radio-print-Media, Food, Drinks, who to live with, a Woman to choose how to care for her own body, Right to assemble [Unions], ect.
    Ironically, trampling our U.S. Constitutional rights to Freedom in the process.

    While, Conservatives may "give" more in a set $ figure,
    Liberals tend to be more poor.
    And studies have show time-&-again that the poor always give more by way of a percentage of income than the rich.
    Proving the Pharisees and the Widow's mite is an eternal truth.

    FYI - "Tithing" is not Charity.

    "Fast Offerings" and
    "Humanitarian Aid" are true Charities.

    If you are paying 10% to those - then you'll have earned my deepest respect, and all the bragging rights you desire.

  • Abner Normal Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:04 p.m.

    CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. This definition covers cults within all major world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 11:55 a.m.

    The Simpsons & Family Guy have taken swipes at religion.

    But, it doesn't top the The Cleveland Show's summary of mainstream christianity on the 10/2/11 episode.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 11:17 a.m.

    To LDS Lib who wrote: "How can you possible believe Christ and everything he said and did when you have no comapssion to the poor and needy, sick or afflicted, meanwhile being so lazer focused on YOUR money, taxes, and the vain things of the world -- while forcing others by legislation to ALWAYS choose the YOUR way, even if it's right? {Lucifer's Plan]"

    Although liberals such as you try to paint conservatives as greedy, uncaring people who couldn't care less about anyone but themselves, I respectfully disagree. Some of the most generous, caring people I know are conservative.

    We may object to the government forcibly taking money away from one group of people and giving it to another group (Is that the Lucifer's Plan you were talking about?), but when it comes to digging into our pockets to voluntarily give our own hard earned money (and our time) to worthy causes that help the poor and needy, I would be willing to bet that conservatives are much better at that than are liberals.

  • vail39 Summerville, SC
    Oct. 11, 2011 11:13 a.m.

    johnnylingo62 It really means Little Christ or Christ Like. I grew up in small town utah and use to be LDS, Now I do belong to a Baptist Church, And a lot of friends say the LDS church is a CULT I do not agree with them. I just think in Revalation 22-18 where it says If anyone add to them GOD will add to him the plauges which are written in this boo. So I think there should not be a book after the BIBLE.

  • Canyontreker TAYLORSVILLE, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 10:05 a.m.

    "And I am a Mormon Christian" should have been the PR campaign.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 10:03 a.m.

    'Every religion is a cult.' - mssr | 2:27 a.m. Oct. 11, 2011

    See, when I try to post this, my post is denied by the moderator.

  • Razzle2 Bluffdale, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:44 a.m.

    Mormons don't accept Evangelical baptisms. Evangelicals don't accept Mormon baptisms.
    Mormons say polygamous are not Mormons even if they profess to be and believe in the Book of Mormon.
    Some Evangelicals say Mormons are not Christians even if they profess to be and believe in the New Testament.
    Mormons see being Christian as something much larger than the Church...as being Christ centered.
    Many Evangelicals see being A Christian as only being a baptized member of their Church.
    LDS consider being a Mormon as being a baptized member of their Church.
    This can go on forever...

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:33 a.m.

    To Iron Rod who wrote:
    "It is my personal belief that many in that unnamed political party either in private or few in public hold the view that yes we are a cult. They view us as "Non Christians." Personally I find it offensive."

    So what are the alternatives? Are you also offended by the other political party (which shall also be unnamed), who have unkind things to say not only about our church but just about every church?

    Yes, I know the church has not been fully embraced by the party you dislike, but it is even further shunned by the other party.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:29 a.m.

    @Charles | 8:28 p.m.
    To...LDS Lib:

    Do you believe that Jesus Christ was literally the physical Son of God the Father and Mary, a mortal mother?

    Do you accept the Bibles account of Jesuss mortal ministry? This includes the miracles that He performed and the organization of His Church with Apostles having His authority to minister and administrate.

    Do you accept your Bibles account of Christs Passion [to use a term more familiar to them than to us], His experience in the Garden of Gethsemane, His Crucifixion on Golgotha, and His literal Resurrection on the third day?

    I answer yes to each of these questions, without reservation. What say you?


    I answered a firm YES, to each and every one of your questions @Charles.

    That's WHY and what makes me a Liberal.

    How can you possible believe Christ and everything he said and did when you have no comapssion to the poor and needy, sick or afflicted,

    meanwhile being so lazer focused on YOUR money, taxes, and the vain things of the world -- while forcing others by legislation to ALWAYS choose the YOUR way, even if it's right? {Lucifer's Plan]

    Your move....

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:39 a.m.

    @Benhur. Volunteer LDS leaders to explain the LDS view,Good Idea.

    Patrick Madrid a Catholic apologist formally debated an official of the Mormon Church. President Coleman was a LDS Mission President in So Ca.
    The Trinity provided a spirited exchange in which the LDS speaker offers a critique of the Catholic doctrine of One God in three Persons and argues for the Mormon Churchs doctrine that there are many Gods(a plurality of Gods).

    @Charles, To my Evangelical friends : Do you believe that Jesus Christ was literally the physical Son of God the Father and Mary, a mortal mother? but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.(Mt 1:18) a unique miracle.

    @the truth,AS far who is Christian, I will let Christ decide who his "sheep" are. (Acts 28:28) Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the GENTILES, and that they will hear it.
    Romans 10: 20} And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.
    The Nephites nor the Lamanites can meet this qualification.

  • JFFR Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:13 a.m.

    C.S. Lewis once observed, "Once we allow people to start spiritualizing and refining, or as they might say 'deepening' the sense of the word Christian...it will become a useless word....It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge...It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian

  • raybies Layton, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 7:03 a.m.

    The reaction to Mormonism has driven many Christian religions to abandon old belief systems and modernize their faith, to focus on Christ, especially as they observe the LDS people making strides in values, education and family life that many traditional christians can do little more than envy.

    Likewise the criticism leveled at Mormonism for its occasional drift into "space doctrines" and strange mysteries, has given the LDS people more focus on their core beliefs and ultimately strengthens it.

    We might someday look back and see how this rivalry of faiths may have been mutually beneficial in perfecting both of us. When Christ returns, he can sort out the rest, but let's be grateful for a peaceful place where disagreements can be laid to rest with civil discourse and patient Christian tolerance.

  • mssr Provo, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 2:27 a.m.

    Every religion is a cult. Far different than being "spiritual".

  • Let the Truth be Told slc, ut
    Oct. 11, 2011 1:10 a.m.

    I am sick and tired of hearing mormons claim that christian ministers that disagree with their doctrine are trying to "protect their flock and their money". That is such nonsense. It is sad to see and hear that more "so-called" ministers of the gospel either don't know what mormonism teaches or have a spirit of compromise regarding the definition of what mormonism is.
    It is also sad to see so many people in an organization that are blinded from the real Jesus of the bible.
    I for one will continue to defend the faith that was ONCE delivered to the saints and will not compromise when speaking of the truth that is found in the only gospel of Jesus Christ.
    I don't know why mormons get upset about someone calling them out on their beliefs and calling them a cult when they have thousands of missionaries telling people everyday that their church and beliefs are false and that they are the only ones that hold the truth.
    The church of Jesus Christ, founded 2000 years ago still stands today and there never was a complete apostasy.
    What mormonism teaches in all aspects is in direct conflict with the bible

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:47 a.m.

    Evangelicals are quiet about drinking, adultry, gambling, smoking, lying, abortions and porn.

    Are these guys Christians?

  • apache1 Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:36 a.m.

    I am not pleased or amused to see all the "Mormon bashing" that has hit both print and news media with a firestorm of negative stories and half truths being spread about our true beliefs and faith. I am sad to see that not one "christan leader" of any national promenience has come to the defence of the church, Dr. Mouw was kind to take a stand in our behalf but sadly one person is not going to do anything to help ease the firestorm of bad publicity that the church at present finds itself. I would like to see Mitt win the republican nomination but unless this negative publicity campaign can be quelled, he has very little chance once again of becoming President.

  • Silly Rabbit Small Town, USA, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:38 p.m.

    The biggest problem with us as Americans is that we divide ourselves through ignorance. We do not believe in each other if there is something that we do not understand about our neighbors. Its sad and that is not what Christ teaches us as Christians, I believe in my studies that he has taught us to love all, and to love something I believe you must have respect for them you dont need to like it but go ahead and respect it. Thanks Dr. Mouw

  • Christy Beaverton, OR
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:04 p.m.

    Romney (and Huntsman) are the most sane and viable among the GOP crop, hands down. Romney will win the nomination. Then what? Will the Christian Fundies vote for Romney? Or will they sit it out?

  • Benhur Everett, WA
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:17 p.m.

    Entire nation is hearing that Mormonism is a cult and its members are not Christians. LDS are not refuting this predjudiced bigotry and allowing others to define them. Simple web link on lds.org or mormon.org entitled "why mormons are christians" would be a good start. Volunteering BYU professors of religion or LDS leaders to media to explain the LDS view on "Mormons & Christianity" would help correct misinformation. Unfortunately, silence on the matter gives millions of people a grossly inaccurate view of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" (Mormonism) and their relationship and belief in Jesus Christ as Saviour to the world. Disappointing that a few people are allowed to define the LDS church in such an unkind & distorted way without simple and thoughtful response from those most able to accuratley respond.

    Oct. 10, 2011 8:37 p.m.

    All religions are cults until their beliefs become widely accepted. Jews thought Jesus was a blasphemas leader of a cult. Mohammed was probably considered the leader of a cult even if that exact term didn't exist. Martin luther In the early Protestant movement. Almost all religion is oppressive, manipulative, and is the largest motive for mass murder this world has ever seen. Wars are launched in the name of religion, and the darkest events of world history were justified by religion. I believe in God, but I see why more and more people think religions do more bad than good.

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 8:32 p.m.

    LDS Liberal,

    Liberals need the restored gospel too. Welcome to the fold. I even have liberals in my own family who voted for Obama. Some of them are sorry they did.
    Keep up the good work. Liberals can be good members of the church as wsll.I think our Savior was somewhat liberal in his life too so you are in good company if you stick with Him.

  • @Charles the greater outdoors, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 8:28 p.m.

    To my Evangelical friends and LDS Lib:

    Do you believe that Jesus Christ was literally the physical Son of God the Father and Mary, a mortal mother?

    Do you accept the Bibles account of Jesuss mortal ministry? This includes the miracles that He performed and the organization of His Church with Apostles having His authority to minister and administrate.

    Do you accept your Bibles account of Christs Passion [to use a term more familiar to them than to us], His experience in the Garden of Gethsemane, His Crucifixion on Golgotha, and His literal Resurrection on the third day?

    I answer yes to each of these questions, without reservation. What say you?

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 8:25 p.m.

    Who cares. When the Lord moved to have his boy prophet understand what he had in mind for him he did not want his associating his calling to Modern Christianity. He had strong words to say about the state of Christianity in Joseph's day which I will not repeat here. So, Who Cares.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Oct. 10, 2011 8:09 p.m.

    @The Truth,

    Excellent statement!

    AS far who is Christian, I will let Christ decide who his "sheep" are,

  • Schwa South Jordan, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 7:32 p.m.

    Religion? Cult? It's a semantic battle. Isn't the real difference simply the social acceptability of it?

  • mightymite DRAPER, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 7:31 p.m.

    Same argument and same old excuses. The more I read these comments, the more I understand that mormons do not understand there religion nor the precepts of Christianity. Almost kind of funny but truly sad--- Pretty ironic...

  • Iron Rod Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 6:46 p.m.

    Perhaps we as a religous group have misplaced political loyalities.

    Is our political support at the ballot box taken for granted by one single political party?

    It is my personal belief that many in that unnamed political party either in private or few in public hold the view that yes we are a cult. They view us as "Non Christians."

    Personally I find it offensive.

  • als Atheist Provo, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 6:35 p.m.

    The word "cult" has been abandoned amog scholars because it is imprecise. But it conveys in popular language what most scholars (social scientists and mental health professionals) refer to as a "mind-control organization".

    Such organizations are characterized by abusive practices that manipulate and exploit individuals, influencing them to make harmful sacrifices that benefit the organization. For instance, from the 1930s on, there are many historical instances of state power dominating individual beliefs and values. In Stalins Moscow show trials, his adversaries publicly confessed to their treasons. Catholic Cardinal Mindzenty similarly gave false confessions favoring his communist captors. During the Korean War, American airmen confessed to engaging in germ warfare after intense indoctrination sessions. The Chinese Thought Reform Program achieved massive societal conversions to new beliefs. The CIA put into practice nearly 150 projectscollectively termed MKULTRAto develop various forms of exotic mind control, including the use of LSD and hypnosis. More than 900 U.S. citizens committed suicide or murdered friends and family at the persuasive bidding of their Peoples Temple cult leader, Jim Jones.

    Terrorists effectively use this principle: "Train up a child in the way he should go, and wen he is old..."

  • JBs Logan, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 6:19 p.m.

    As I read the comments posted here and recognize them from being members of the same church as mine, I become concerned at the lack of respect and courtesy toward those who are of different faiths. Christ was not defensive nor did he rail at the people who didn't believe in him. I hope that I can follow Him not only in word, but, more importantly, in deed, thus proclaiming in the most effective way that I am truly Christian.

    "I can't hear what you are saying, your actions are speaking too loudly."

  • Macfarren Dallas, TX
    Oct. 10, 2011 6:10 p.m.

    LDS are neither Protestant or Catholic. Some evangelicals just can't fathom a third category of Christianity and therefore label it 'outside' of Christianity.

    A very unfortunate definition problem, but a definition problem it only is, not a Christianity problem.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Oct. 10, 2011 5:57 p.m.

    When Jesus walked the earth a lot of people considered His followers a cult. I can't remember what they did to Him but it didn't seem to bury His message.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 5:55 p.m.

    RE: LDS Liberal

    I have attended 6 different wards in utah and have never heard anything like you described "thrown around",

    U have never heard rush or hannity call anyone not patriot or not a great american,though I have heard of honest questioning of poltical actions and motvations of politicians and political activists, something perfectly fine in the public square,

    AS far who is Christian, I will let Christ decide who his "sheep" are,

    as far doctrines and creeds, I will get those from God's own servants, his apostles or prophet, not from unelightened men or self declared religious leaders.

  • donn layton, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 5:39 p.m.

    Dr. Mouw,There is no question in my mind that there has been a discernible pattern of sinning against LDS folks in this regard. I could show, for example, how Walter Martin oversimplified Mormon teachings in his much-read books
    Whether Mormonism falls within the technical definition of a "cult" is beside the point. Whatever you wish to call it, the teachings of the Church of Latter Day Saints are diametrically opposed to the teachings of scripture.

    Dr. Mouw does not make himself clear. What exactly does he believe these men have "oversimplified." Dr. Mouw associate *Ravi Zacharias is the general editor the newest edition of Martin's, The Kingdom of the Cults(Mormonism)?

    Re;Christoph. I learned a lot from *Ravi Zacharias who I hear met with Pres. Hinckley earlier.

    RE: Kevin R Graves. I don't really mind having someone say I am not a Christian when it is said with logic and respect, Catholic Answers considers Mormonism a non-Christian religion. With respect and logic

  • Tyler Ray Taylorsville, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 5:31 p.m.

    Her is the definition of CHRISTIAN: of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.

    LDS believe Jesus Christ is the only Redeemer and Savior of the world and they only way to be saved.

    We believe in Faith in Jesus Christ, baptism by immersion, receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

    We believe in the Bible, we believe that God is unchanging and that Christ is His only Begotten Son

    We believe that God still speaks to man and in one faith, one Lord, one baptism.

    Here are just a few examples of why members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints is a perfect example of Christianity.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 5:27 p.m.

    Are we non-Christian? Are we a cult? It all depends on your definition of those terms, of course. But, in the end, what unbelievers may think of our commitment to the Good News of Our Lord and Savior is of surpassingly small importance.

    What really matters is what Our Lord thinks of us, how He defines "Christian."

    I'm content to let Him decide.

    Let unbelievers call us non-Christian, a cult, call us rutabagas, for all I care. Their judgment can only affect my standing before my Lord to the extent I use it as an excuse to engage in unchristian behavior towards them.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Oct. 10, 2011 4:13 p.m.

    What makes Evangelicals experts of Christianity? Their training for the ministry isn't much different from training to be a new car saleman. Persuasive speakers leading gullible people to their own philosophy and wants.

    Sorry Evangelicals, but I don't recognize your ignorant point of views when you manufacture and spread poison of someone elses sacred beliefs. It's you who are not Christians and becoming cults.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Oct. 10, 2011 4:04 p.m.

    I don't have a dog in this fight. I really don't care if someone is Christian or Buddhist or Jewish. In the end, what does it really matter?

    These are just words on a forum. But it makes it so easy to see how in this world, there is such fighting, pain and suffering over, RELIGION, of all things.

    Watching people try to Religiously ONE UP the other would be very entertaining if it were not so sad.

    And all of this, in the name of Religion.

    Ironic, isn't it?

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    Oct. 10, 2011 3:35 p.m.

    LDS Liberal 2:27 p.m. said:

    "BTW - I'm sure Priesthood meetings in the Congo and South Africa never dwell on the Mark of Cain - or Whites being the "pure" race, like I hear it thrown around here in "Zion" regarding Mexicans in Utah.
    Are they "not REAL Mormons" because of their complexion?"

    Are you saying this is what goes on in Utah?? When you say "thrown around" - exactly when and where?

    Here in California, and been here 27 years, I've not experienced, EVER, this type of rhetoric.

  • KM Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 3:33 p.m.

    lds lib

    If in your ward meetings you hear disparraging remarks about others, including color of skin, etc... Then, I hope you are standing up for what is right. I know that kind of dialog does not go on in my ward. Maybe you should put the perpetrator in his place.

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 3:24 p.m.

    Pagan | 2:04 p.m. Oct. 10, 2011
    Salt Lake City, UT
    "Broad generalizations do no one any good. Let us avoid them..."

    I have read some of your past comments and strongly disagree with several of your views, but I respect your right to voice them. I consider myself a "Utah moderate," which means that I am "ultra-right-wing" anywhere else.

    I wholeheartedly agree with your above statement. "Name calling" belittles the individual, demonstrates a general lack of respect of others, and shows the lack of thought of the person expressing the disrespect.

    Too many people want the political parties to be parties-of-one. It is simple to say that all Democrats are left-wing, or that Republicans are ring-wing with nothing in between. Some individuals want to exclude anyone that they don't agree with as a DINO or RINO (... In Name Only), but no one agrees with anyone else about everything. This second group is also using paper-thin logic. They are demonstrating that they want to be in a party-of-one.

    Diversity is what makes this country great. I am thankful for our differences. It is through public debate that we learn.

  • inmyopinion88 WEST JORDAN, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 3:22 p.m.

    The article was really good and pointed out stark differences between cults and Mormons. I was so impressed and appreciative that I went online and found the email address for the Presidents office and wrote him a short thank you for standing up for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

  • Petra Sanpete County, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 3:14 p.m.

    I absolutely agree, "LDS Liberal." It is sometimes difficult for any "closed" group to accept those who might be a bit different, whether it's evangelicals staking out the term "Christian" for themselves, or historically conservative Utah LDS who think that LDS who do not subscribe to far-right politics cannot possibly understand the Gospel itself.

    Just as the LDS on these boards support and defend the truth about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being a Christian church, so should those same LDS absolutely defend the stance the LDS Church takes when it says that "all major political parties contain Gospel principles" and asks its members to support Gospel principles as members of those differing parties. To bash LDS liberals or LDS members of the Democratic party is simply as wrong, un-Christian and anti-the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as an evangelical stating that we are "not Christian."

  • Independent Woman West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 2:58 p.m.

    My only question to these characters is, How do you define a cult? I'm sure the LDS Church doesn't fit any of the accepted definitions.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 2:27 p.m.

    JoeCapitalist2 | 11:19 a.m. Oct. 10, 2011
    Orem, UT
    LDS Liberal:

    If Limbaugh, Hannity & Beck really said that you are not a real American because you think differently than them, then yes, I am calling them out on that.



    But, I found it suspicious - perhaps almost sinister - that you conviently never called my fellow "Brothers & Sisters" who endlessly harass us "left-leaning" Mormons weekly. Flagrently mockingly us at times, saying we are "Not REAL Mormons".

    It's no different, and just as ignorant - as those non-LDS pastors and preachers saying Mormons are not REAL Christians.

    For the record - I'm just using the exact same sort of measuring scale to prove my point.

    Try sitting through a Priesthood Meeting, or Gospel Doctrine class when it turns into a Sean Hannity Testimony meeting.

    BTW - I'm sure Priesthood meetings in the Congo and South Africa never dwell on the Mark of Cain - or Whites being the "pure" race, like I hear it thrown around here in "Zion" regarding Mexicans in Utah.
    Are they "not REAL Momrons" because of their complexion?

    Please - I'm just asking that some of you use this "bigotry" and put yourself in another person's shoes.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 2:04 p.m.

    'But I am also calling out all those leftists who call the Tea Party "Racists", who call anyone who supports traditional marriage or don't ask don't tell "Homophobes"...' - JoeCapitalist2 | 11:19 a.m. Oct. 10, 2011

    *'Gays greatest threat to America, Buttars says' - By Aaron Falk - DSnews - 02/19/09

    *'GOP state legislator: Homosexuality worse than terrorism' - By David Ferguson - Talking Points Memo - 09/10/11

    *'Tea Party Express leader Mark Williams kicked out over 'Colored People' letter' - BY HELEN KENNEDY - NY Daily News - 07/18/10

    'A California radio host and leader of the Tea Party Express, Williams had labeled the Manhattan boro president a "Jewish Uncle Tom" and President Obama an:

    "Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug."

    Broad generalizations do no one any good.

    Let us avoid them, and place the 'cult' lable ONLY on the evangelical leader who said it.

    Not on Evangelical's, as a whole.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 1:16 p.m.


    "It is reported that Rick Perry "tithes" at 1/1000 of his income. Mitt Romney tithes at more than 10 percent. Which candidate is observing Christian precepts? "

    Why exactly are we connecting faith to ones ability to give money to a church and why does the amount matter if Perry's church doesn't have a set amount required to give?

  • Flashback Kearns, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 12:42 p.m.

    "a serious man" in Iceberg, I'm not offended and could care less about the Church getting branded as a cult, I think we ought to go on the offensive. Frankly by dictionary definition, all religions are cults. I just hate the lies that Evengelicals disseminate to their flocks about the Mormon Church most of which they learn in their theological seminaries. I have found the vast majority of evengelicals are really nice people who are passionate about their beliefs. I've also found them to be quite closed minded on both politics and religion.

    As far as "historical Christianity" is concerned. A movement that started in 1609 by John Smyth (Ba[tosts) shouldn't start spouting about historical Christianity. Especially when the prime reason they broke off from the Catholic Church is their non-acceptance of infant baptism and sprinkling instead of immersion. In that respect the Evengelicals ought to appreciate the Book of Mormon view on the subject. The problem is, most of them have not read it. The Mormon beliefs are way more in line with "historical Christianity", meaning early first century Christianity prior to the Nicean Creed brand of Christianity.

  • JM Lehi, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 12:34 p.m.

    I agree that Mouw is a Christian. He is right about many things, LDS bookstores sell books by many non-LDS Christian authors. We believe in the same Jesus, teh Biblical Jesus. LDS view the Trinity in the ancient way, as a Tri-unity. A unity of three separate persons. God the Father (to whom Jesus prayed), God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

    LDS also participate in the ancient rites practiced in early Christian Temples (variations were formerly practiced at Christianities Holiest Church of the Holy Sepulchre and among the earliest Christians, and still practiced in the most ancient Christian Church, the Armenian Apostolic (predates Catholic, Protestant, etc)
    But I don't think this makes us or them not Christian.

    I know Christ has reestablished His Church but the prophet Mormon (Israelite tribe of Manasseh) teaches us that all of God's children can do miracles through faith in Christ. I've visited many Christian churches, and some calling themselves Christian had a Spirit of darkness, others had light, although that light was never as bright as restored Christian Churches. The most intensely Spiritual Christian services Ive attended were in the MTC and a mostly Black LDS branch in North

  • JoCo Ute Grants Pass, OR
    Oct. 10, 2011 12:33 p.m.

    Mouw said he has studied cults and taught about them. He said their hallmarks include "a distaste for engaging in serious, respectful give-and-take dialogue with people with whom they disagree."

    I guess he's not followed the LDS cult called the Utah State Legislature.

  • Humm?? Tropic, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 12:03 p.m.

    @ Jeff in NC. What has the lDS church done that is uncivil or unrespectful?

  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:53 a.m.

    Dr Mouw is a class act guy, I really am impressed with his Christ like approach. I love my Savior and have so much gratitude for his life, his teachings and all he gave, the Atonement and the Resurrection. So it is hard when others say that this person who is the center of my life is someone I don't believe in or follow. I love and believe in Christ and I am a Mormon, LDS, member of the Church of Jesus CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. I am a Christian.

    dillet, I liked your comments, I learned some things I didn't know before, thanks for that information.

  • ute alumni Tengoku, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:42 a.m.

    jeff in nc,
    they have

  • BrentBot Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:42 a.m.

    It is reported that Rick Perry "tithes" at 1/1000 of his income. Mitt Romney tithes at more than 10 percent. Which candidate is observing Christian precepts?

  • sashabill Morgan Hill, CA
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:29 a.m.

    A "cult" is basically just any religion that fundamentalist Protestants don't happen to like. I congratulate Dr Mouw for having the ability to see past this mindset and recognize what is good, praiseworthy, or virtuous in another religious tradition.

    As for me, I rejected fundamentalist Protestant teachings long before I became a Mormon. Their continual degrading and belittling of the individual, coupled with liberal doses of unexplained guilt, alienated me as an American and as a human being. Their doctrine of Original Sin (wherein we are asked to blindly accept guilt for the sin of Adam) contradicts the American concept of justice (wherein we are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law).

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:19 a.m.

    LDS Liberal:

    If Limbaugh, Hannity & Beck really said that you are not a real American because you think differently than them, then yes, I am calling them out on that.

    But I am also calling out all those leftists who call the Tea Party "Racists", who call anyone who supports traditional marriage or don't ask don't tell "Homophobes", who call anyone who has earned lots of money as "Greedy, heartless exploiters", and a hundred other names for any supporter of a conservative cause.

  • dillet Monrovia, CA
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:17 a.m.

    Defining "Christians" according to "The beliefs of the Founders?" Consider past U.S. Presidents with potentially questionable religious beliefs:
    --Unitarians (do not believe in the trinity; like Mormons, deny the creeds and dont believe in absolute reliability of the Bible): John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (according to many Unitarians), John Quincy Adams, Millard Fillmore, William Howard Taft
    --Quakers (unsure of Bible use; like Mormons, deny the creeds): Herbert Hoover, Richard Nixon
    --Not Religious: James Madison, James Monroe, Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler, Zachary Taylor, Andrew Johnson, Ulysses S. Grant, Rutherford B. Hayes, Chester Arthur
    --Deist (non-Christian): Abraham Lincoln (but he did know the Bible)
    --Past Free-Mason U.S. Presidents (who, somewhat like Mormons, have secret/sacred rituals): George Washington, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, James Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, James Garfield, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, Howard Taft, Warren Harding, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Gerald Ford.
    It is not just a "Mormon" thing is it? If you insist on only U.S. Presidential candidates who pass a strict religious litmus test well exclude a lot of past Presidents, and probably also some pretty good potential future Presidents if we continue this venomous nonsense.

  • christoph Brigham City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:13 a.m.

    I was in the Salt Lake Tabernacle the night Brother Mouw spoke and yes half the audience was LDS and half was evangelical----and he said he along with his father and grandfather---had all sinned in the negative things they had said about Joseph Smith and they needed forgiveness. A tear came down my cheek (which doesn't happen often) as I wondered why I don't (like him) feel more sorrow for the dumb things I say. There was a lot of love and humor there that night, a lot of song and rejoicing. The humor was that the evangelicals thought their prayer was answered to be speaking in the SLC tabernacle--(God was opening the Mormons hearts---it had been over 100 years since, I think, a non LDS church pastor had spoken in the tabernacle) and of course the Mormons are thinking, "We have them in our own building!!!!!" There were jokes about which party would sit on the right of the pulpit and which would sit on the left hand side (as if that has eternal significance). I learned a lot from Ravi Zacharias who I hear met with Pres. Hinckley earlier.

  • Kirk R Graves West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:01 a.m.

    It's funny to me how a couple of the more antagonistic individuals here work so hard to turn everything into a political issue. Guys (you two know who you are), go find a political article to post on. The rest of us just don't care.

    Oh, and I don't really mind having someone say I am not a Christian when it is said with logic and respect (respect is probably the more important of the two). Clearly the LDS Church does not fall into the currently popular definition of "Christian". Fine with me, as long that they understand that we still consider ourselves Christians.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:53 a.m.

    JoeCapitalist2 | 9:50 a.m. Oct. 10, 2011
    Orem, UT
    If you don't want to include a person or a group under a certain definition (Christian, Conservative, American, etc., take your pick..) all you have to do is to define the term in such a way as to exclude them. Then you can point your finger at them and say "You are not a Christian" (by your definition of course).


    Is that kind of like when the "Limbaugh, Hannity & Beck" followers call those of us on the left -
    Not a real American,
    Not a real Patriot?

    I know I've been called
    "Not a REAL Mormon"
    many times before by those same people here on the DN comment boards.

    I wonder where they hear garbage like that from?

    Good call JoeCapitalist2.

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:50 a.m.

    Article quote: "Those of us who have made the effort to engage Mormons in friendly and sustained give-and-take conversations have come to see them as good citizens whose life of faith often exhibits qualities that are worthy of the Christian label, even as we continue to engage in friendly arguments with them about crucial theological issues," Mouw concluded. "Mitt Romney deserves what every politician running for office deserves: a careful examination of his views on policy and his philosophy of government. But he does not deserve to be labeled a cultist."

    Don't the scriptures say (paraphrasing here) that if we stand up for Christ, and by extension, Christ-like behavior, that at the last day that Christ will then stand up for us?

    Why, yes. Yes, they do.

    Thank you, Dr. Mouw, for standing up for Christ.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:35 a.m.

    All this 'cult' talk is really a shame.

    *'Fox News host: Romney not Christian' - By Hal Boyd, Deseret News - 07/17/11

    As, just a four months ago:

    *'Trump on Obama's Birth Certificate: 'Maybe It Says He's a Muslim' - Fox Nation - 03/30/11

    *'Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows' - By Lauren Green - 08/19/10 - Fox News

    While the truth was:

    *'Obamas to attend church for Easter Sunday' - By Philip Elliott - AP - Published by DSNews - 04/11/09

    Many are trying to 'blame Obama' for this, when it was Republican presidental nominee Rick Perry's pastor who struck this chord.

    Now, Rick Perry has distanced himself from that pastor, but I have to ask...

    how do Mitt Romney's supporters feel, now that Mitt is getting some of the same treatment they possibly supported when it was done...

    to Obama?

  • DRay Roy, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:28 a.m.

    The "fruits" of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints" prove what it is. It seems many evangelical ministers are jealously guarding, not their flocks so much as their income. Remember LDS serve voluntarily, without pay, save for a few General Authorities who are supported as they need it, but not in a lavish lifestyle. We have freely received, and freely give...it is not a vocation, our sharing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not for sale, or financial gain. How many "mainstream" Christian churches can say that?

  • KM Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:27 a.m.

    I believe that the LDS church is a cult...A cult of "Christianity!"

  • Richie Saint George, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:24 a.m.

    Thank you Dr. Mouw. Jeffress and his buddies that call us a cult are the best friends Obama has.

  • johnnylingo62 Gray, TN
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:03 a.m.

    Thank you Dr. Mouw! The name "Christian" is supposed to mean "someone who follows Christ's teachings". Everything else is symantics. Are you "more Christian" than someone else is hardly relevant in this type of global dialogue. If you are in a Muslim world, they don't differentiate if you're Mormon, or Catholic or Protestant - they're going to lump us all together as Christian - followers of Christ.
    the term "cult" is petty at best when you try to lump 14+million people from around the world from all walks of life, races, languages, and backgrounds. There is no fence or high wall around the LDS church to keep people In or keep people Out. Freedom of Choice, Free Agency to join or not is all open - hardly the definition as a cult.

    Oct. 10, 2011 9:58 a.m.

    @majmajor: The mormon church can use Mr. Mouw's example right away. For instance, why can't the Mormon church simply take a position of disagreement about gay marriage and then defer to civililty and respect?

  • Hawkyo SYRACUSE, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:58 a.m.

    Finally an intelligent response from a man who actually has taken the time to study and understand a differing point of view. Thank you!

  • Kami Bountiful, Utah
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:51 a.m.

    As an active member of the LDS church, I would argue that we are not a cult and are indeed Christian. However, in some areas, particularly in densely populated LDS areas, there is a very dominant LDS culture that outsiders could certainly look upon as cultish. Personally, I ignore the LDS culture as much as possible and pay attention to only the religious aspect of what it means to be LDS.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:50 a.m.

    If you don't want to include a person or a group under a certain definition (Christian, Conservative, American, etc., take your pick..) all you have to do is to define the term in such a way as to exclude them. Then you can point your finger at them and say "You are not a Christian" (by your definition of course).

    It doesn't matter if 90% of the rest of us do not agree with your narrow definition, you feel justified in calling them names and telling everyone who will listen that they are "not us".

    Just be very careful or your narrow definition may also exclude yourself or some of your friends who you still wanted to be in the "in crowd".

  • Europe Topeno, Finland
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:44 a.m.

    Thanks for doing a Christian deed. I sincerely hope that these other "christian" ministers would follow.

    As to who is, or isn't a Christian, THE LORD knows who follows Him, or not.

    I dare say, that most of the world's "christians" do not even know what it really means.

    Ever since joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in 1967, I have been a Christian who follows my Savior Jesus Christ in whome I have the utmost faith and whose sacrifice and atonement are the saving elements in my today and eternities. No-one else! and it does not matter who tries to put words in my mouth, that LDS do not believe that ... well my 42 years in the Church has been the same never changing GOSPEL. If someone chooses not to call me a Christian and follower of Jesus Christ - I don't care, because I know that the Savior knows, and so do I.

    Having said that... I have also the highest regard and respect for others and their faiths. I hope you find such peace in your's as I do in mine.

    Instead of this ridiculous arguing - let's just love one another.

  • Montana Mormon Miles City, MT
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:39 a.m.

    Richard Mouw, you are a class act. Thank you. I find your example worthy of emulating as a genuine follower of Christ and I hope I can be as classy as a practicing member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Sometimes I fall short, much to my chagrin.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:26 a.m.

    We can argue back and forth on this like weasely injury lawyers but the fact is if you want to know if someone is a christian just ask 'em. It's like asking someone if they're a good driver. Of course they are. They may prove otherwise but that doesn't matter. It's about what they think they are, and especially in religion they need offer no argument beyond that.

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:04 a.m.

    Great article.

    Mr. Mouw is an outstanding gentleman. This country needs more of his example of civility and respect.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:02 a.m.

    [The LDS define themselves as 1st Century Christians, in other words "Pre-Nicene Creed".

    Where as Catholics and Protestants subscribe to a "Post-Nicene Creed" or a 4th Century definition of the Godhead, dating from 325 AD. ]

    Catholics and Protestants believe the Nicene Creed was not something new but rather just a writing of something they believed was always the case.

  • a serious man Rexburg, ID
    Oct. 10, 2011 9:01 a.m.

    As an active LDS, I say to my fellow LDS, stop getting offended when people say we aren't Christians. "Cult" is indeed a petty insult, but saying we aren't Christians is not, necessarily. The question of Mormonism's place in Christianity is actually complicated, and by many definitions we aren't Christians, if you define Christianity as a historical tradition and a body of accepted beliefs. Mouw is correct here in many ways.

    Mormonism is to Christianity as early Christianity was to Judaism. Similar in many respects, but different enough to constitute a new religious tradition. Let's embrace that heritage instead of clamoring to be part of the Christian masses.

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 8:52 a.m.

    Intereting how even this Evangelical leader maintains that the LDS teachings may not hold true to "His" definition of "Historical Christianity".

    What does this mean?

    Are Protestants holdidng true to an even older version of Historical Christianity, even the Catholic Church? Hardly.

    The Protestant reformation took nearly 1500 years to come about, which is the Evangelicals version of Christianity.

    They (Protestants & Catholics) however have all agreed on the "Creedal" doctrine of the Godhead, but still differ greatly on most other issues.

    The LDS define themselves as 1st Century Christians, in other words "Pre-Nicene Creed".

    Where as Catholics and Protestants subscribe to a "Post-Nicene Creed" or a 4th Century definition of the Godhead, dating from 325 AD.

  • On the other hand Spanish Fork, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 8:51 a.m.

    Thank you, Dr. Mouw.

  • Brian Wasilla, AK
    Oct. 10, 2011 8:45 a.m.

    What is really clear in this article is that Richard Mouw is a Christian.