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Romney, Fischer obscurely address 'big, anti-Mormon elephant' at Values Voter Summit

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  • amst plano, tx
    Oct. 15, 2011 11:03 p.m.

    Do what is right let the consequence follow.

  • shirleyw55 Urbandale, Iowa
    Oct. 11, 2011 10:44 a.m.

    If Mormons or members of the Church of Christ of Jesus Christ aren't Christians and don't deserve the freedom of Religion or benefits of the first amendment, then those of Jewish faith, Buddhists, Hindu's, Ba Ha faith, Muslims, etc. shouldn't be given rights either. What's the country becoming, another fascist state?
    Our Country was founded by people of different faiths - Puritan, Quaker,and many others. That is what makes this country the best in the world.
    This man's comments goes to show, we still are able to voice our opinions... but true Christians would not put any one down because of their faith or beliefs. As Jesus said ( paraphrasing) if thy enemy hit thee on thy right, give him thy left. We should do unto others as thou would do to thyself.
    I have met many evangelists who are wonderful people. It's a shame that this comment represents the majority or does it? That's up to you.

  • Igualmente Mesa, AZ
    Oct. 10, 2011 4:54 p.m.

    This wrangling of faiths reminds me of my Baptist friend who told me the story of someone dying and reporting to St. Peter at the gates of Heaven, where he was led by several large halls of people enjoying their eternal reward, but when approaching one room, St. Peter said to pass by quietly. After seeing a large community of folks dressed in white, he asked St. Peter who were they? Oh, those are the Mormons, they think they are the only ones up here.

  • Igualmente Mesa, AZ
    Oct. 10, 2011 4:50 p.m.

    More correctly put, Mormons are not Protestant Christians. They are not protesting reformists of Catholicism. They are the restoration of Christ's Church after the world-wide dark ages of apostasy.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 4:48 p.m.

    'Pagan: Not all Mormons identify as republican.' - Freedom-In-Danger | 4:24 p.m. Oct. 10, 2011

    And I never made that claim.

    However, can we agree that majority of Mormons in Utah vote Republican? I would think one look at our local goverment, even redistricting can support that claim.

    And I'm sure there is plenty of room for discourse among the LDS faithful. Semantics aside, regardless if Democrats treat blue-dog conservatives the same, which, you have yet to support, the fact remains that the Republican party AS A WHOLE, has yet to support the LDS faith.

    Example number one: Mitt Romney running for Republican presidental nomimnee in 2008.

    Example two:

    *'Polls: Mormonism won't hurt Mitt Romney like Perry might' - By Hal Boyd, Deseret News - 09/06/11

    Today.

    It's not like Romney kept his faith a secret.

    It was only after Chris Christie made public that he was not running for the Republican party has this issue really peaked.

  • Freedom-In-Danger WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 4:24 p.m.

    LDS Liberal: A good Mormon might also know that the LDS Church has stated that one can be a member of most common political parties and be a good standing member of the church.

    No one gets refused temple recommends for being republican, democrat, conservative, or liberal. I think there are dramatic problems within the republican party that entirely incompatible with LDS beliefs. I also think the same thing about liberalism. While no party is perfect, one would do better to forget them, and focus on following what is right.

    Pagan: Not all Mormons identify as republican. Although putting that aside, there is a problem that I think you misunderstood. If I knew that being Mormon was right and true, etc. I would be Mormon, even if other Mormons hated me for it. Just because other people treat the LDS Church well, doesn't change how members should treat others and how members believe. Unlike some groups and movements, I don't need people to agree with me, in order to tolerate their views. Many democrats have treated blue-dog conservative democrats just as poorly.

  • Jeanie b. Orem, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 2:44 p.m.

    Fischer also said: "We need a president who believes in the same creator that the Founders believed in."

    The founders believed in Providence. They believed in God and his protecting hand, but not all of them worshiped God as the Evangelical Christians do. I think Fischer needs to study a little more American history before he makes such remarks.

    als Atheist -
    Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament too - a lot of destruction of the wicked by God in that book as well. The Jesus of the Book of Mormon is not inconsistent.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 2:07 p.m.

    'Like many in the religious "right" they have gladly accepted help from Mormons in advancing their causes but then turn on them with hateful bigotry when it suits them.' - ksampow | 1:41 p.m. Oct. 10, 2011

    *'Fox News host: Romney not Christian' - By Hal Boyd, Deseret News - 07/17/11

    Funny how that works.

    *'Trump on Obama's Birth Certificate: 'Maybe It Says He's a Muslim' - Fox Nation - 03/30/11

    I do not pretend to be Mormon, or vote Republican.

    But I will never understand the support Mormons give the Republican party, when the Republican party gives them nothing in return.

  • ksampow Farr West, Utah
    Oct. 10, 2011 1:41 p.m.

    I am shocked that a leader of the A.F.A. would voice such religious bigotry. In the past I have subscribed to their e-mail lists and signed many of their petitions. Like many in the religious "right" they have gladly accepted help from Mormons in advancing their causes but then turn on them with hateful bigotry when it suits them.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Oct. 10, 2011 1:37 p.m.

    Dennis - could please hip me to what "cult" like activities are?

    I eagerly await your response.

  • Demosthenes Rexburg, ID
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:48 a.m.

    It is never a good idea to take the comments of a few individuals and generalize those to represent a large group to which they belong. Too many of the comments above do exactly that. No group is that homogeneous.

  • A Guy With A Brain Enid, OK
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:20 a.m.

    How in the heck do you go from "I don't believe you're a Christian" to "you therefore don't have ANY First Amendment rights"?

    I mean, how in the world does this guy make that jump in foolhardy logic?

    Just where in the Bill of Rights does it say "BTW, these rights are only applicable to you if someone else thinks you're a Christian"?

    I'd say what I REALLY think about this guy but I don't think the DesNews posting police would post it....

    To Mitt and other good people around the world, no matter what your religious preference, stay the course. Stay the course.

  • EF SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 7:38 a.m.

    According to the first paragraph of the article, Fischer said, "Latter-day Saints aren't Christian and are therefore not entitled to First Amendment protections." Why do you have to be Christian to be protected by the First Amendment? I thought you just had to be American. What am I missing here?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 10, 2011 12:14 a.m.

    As a good LDS member -- this is one of the very reasons why I can't be a Republican, and question why other good LDS members choose to be Republican.

    And then there are the 1,000 and 1 other reasons....

  • coleman51 Orem, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 9:55 p.m.

    I agree with Brian Fischer that the next President of the United States should be an authentic, genuine, believer of the Christian Faith. That person is Mitt Romney, and him alone. Let Fischer and his cohorts drown in their falsehood and bigotry.

  • Canuk SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 8:39 p.m.

    BMW | 5:48 a.m. Oct. 9, 2011
    San Antonio, Texas
    Canuk-Who does Glenn Beck speak for? Well...himself? Whew...I wouldn't want him speaking for me. If Glenn wants to make a difference he should run for a political office and not sell books to(prey) on Utah repubilicans.

    Are you saying that I can't declare that I am a proud member of the Church of Jesus Christ and Jesus is my Savior? Who the heck do you think he was talking for?

  • Rikitikitavi Cardston, Alberta
    Oct. 9, 2011 8:04 p.m.

    Let's not panic folks. Mr. Romney knows better than all of us combined just what he is up against in securing the G.O.P. nomination. I'm sure he knows it is no "slam dunk". He also knows just how to maintain the President-like image while others self-destruct. He knows what battles to pick and so far he is staying on topic:it's the economy!!! He truly possesses the ability to win these folks over more and more every day in spite of the bigots in their midst who continue to embarrass themselves. There truly are countless true Christians among the born-again congregations who will vote for the right and not the hate-filled orators who presume to speak for them.

  • Straitpath PROVO, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 6:37 p.m.

    Bryan Fischer, one of the anti speakers is on the board of AFA, American Family Association. I paid dues to AFA for many years. The founder of AFA, I think Bryan's father, assured me personally the AFA was not anti-Mormon. I asked him this because shortly after I joined I received an anti mailing. I will never pay another penny to that organization.

  • Freedom-In-Danger WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 5:13 p.m.

    isred,

    I am not a republican. I am conservative. More importantly, I support President Thomas S. Monson as a prophet of God here on this Earth. I find no problems or doctrinal conflicts with every statement the Church has released regarding issues such as, Abortion, Freedom, Same-sex marriage, immigration, good stewardship, and many other things.

    Almost everyone I have ever met or come across that professes to be a liberal member of the church, has disagreed with the church on at least one and often many of these issues.

    I don't really find anything humorous about this. You may think I'm wrong, and that's fine. I can only share my personal experiences. But in my eyes, I can't imagine a valid reason to laugh at other members of the church. It does not seem appropriate to me. Perhaps I am again wrong, but I do not believe so.

    "Liberal" can be interpreted several different ways with different outcomes. One can absolutely identify as a liberal and be a good standing member of the church. However, one cannot stand against what the church proclaims to be the truth of God and also claim to follow God's prophet.

  • Freedom-In-Danger WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 4:59 p.m.

    Dennis:

    Your core statements-

    You need to realize your "cult like" activities will appear "cult like".
    "If you don't think I'm right on target" then you're wrong.

    There is no argument in this. If going to church, reading scriptures, praying, and putting ourselves to work for helping others- is odd, then I'll gladly be odd.

    Even if one picked apart every last thing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes, I would hardly view such things as odd in comparison of the nearly abandoned moral standards we see around us today.

    It wasn't long ago that there was a common understanding of religious freedom and widespread respect for our families. Today we find a growing trend of acceptance of infidelity, abandoning responsibility, and other things that only bring harm to our loved ones.

    While the LDS Church is in the world, we are not of the world. Just because some have stopped believing, doesn't mean we have to.

    Cult literally means different. I'm a bit of a geek myself, but that is a good thing about me. I believe in God. I believe in freedom. I believe in family. If that's different, I don't mind. :)

  • ? SLC, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 4:13 p.m.

    als Atheist: Yes, there was great destruction following the death of Jesus Christ.

    If people should read 3 Nephi 9 then they also ought to read 3 Nephi chapters 11-26 which speaks of Christ's ministry among the people of the Book of Mormon where he ministered to and blessed the people.

    They should also read Moses chapter 7. Here the Lord speaks with Enoch prior to the time of Noah and the flood. The city of Enoch or Zion was taken off the earth. Over the residue of the people who remained the Lord wept for them.

    Great judgements have fallen upon the wicked, but the Lord takes no pleasure in their destruction.

  • isrred Logan, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 3:51 p.m.

    I don't agree with the words of the pastor. But part of me can't help but chuckle a little at the right in the LDS church getting a taste of their own medicine.

    The far right LDS are always quick to tell liberal/moderate members that disagree with them that they aren't true followers of the prophet, but can't take it when someone else launches a similar charge at them.

    Pretty funny.

  • lds4gaymarriage Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 3:08 p.m.

    Filo Doughboy
    More distracions and feigned offense. How disingenuous. Instead of going to your Bible to see why Biblical Christians are warned about false teachers and teachings, you continue to cling to the counterfeit: another gospel, another Jesus. (Galations 1:6-8)

    LDS4
    Sorry, but as has been shown, the Athanasian Trinity comes from pagan/Greek origins and not the Bible. It teaches another gospel, another Jesus. (Galations 1:6-8). Requiring a belief in it to be considered Christian is "adding to" the word of God. The Bible contains no such requirement. You are simply "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matt.15:9).

    Neither Pastor Jeffress nor Evangelicals own the copyright to the title "Christian". Devout LDS look forward to the day when our Christianity is judged since it will be judged by Christ per Biblical priciples and not principles from those "(d)esiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor whereof they affirm." (1 Tim. 1:7). That verse is best illustrated by those who try to explain the Athanasian Trinity to someone who actually knows the Bible. It's a hoot!

  • Dennis Harwich, MA
    Oct. 9, 2011 2:51 p.m.

    You really can't complain about the perception of the outside world.
    When you involve yourselves in "cult" like activities you have to be ready for the criticism. If you don't think I'm right on target, you need to take a look at your behavior and think about what "others" perception may be.

  • Al Miller Houston, TX
    Oct. 9, 2011 2:08 p.m.

    How ironic. Baptists allow a man salvation if he says "Jesus save me!" But Pope Fisher decides that he is the judge of orthodoxy? How Baptist is that?

  • Igualmente Mesa, AZ
    Oct. 9, 2011 2:04 p.m.

    Tolerance of others' faith is difficult, because everyone wants to be true to their own beliefs, go figure...

  • Christy Beaverton, OR
    Oct. 9, 2011 1:57 p.m.

    The idea that Bryan Fischer, a bigot of the worst kind, holds such sway with the far right fringe of the Republican party says a lot. Romney, a moderate to his core, and the only GOP candidate who could viably beat Obama, should put a permanent end to pandering to such people.

  • Bee Careful Kaysville, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 1:53 p.m.

    Folks should bee careful about throwing stones. The anti-mormon zealots who constantly parrot the "yer not Christians" line could equally be gratuitously dismissed by a quote from the Bible:

    " 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23)

    Kind of sums up the fate of intolerant bigots who have the temerity to tell others what the "are" and "are not." I suggest they follow another biblical passage: "Judge not that ye be not judged" (Matthew 7,1)

  • TJW cardston, MT
    Oct. 9, 2011 1:41 p.m.

    Grace
    " They changed the sacrifices that went on in Israel's holy temples to marriages and baptisms" Hmmm Does that mean that all other "Christian" religions still do the same sacrifices that were done in Israel's temples? I would love to come observe that. Do other religions accept and believe branches that have broken off from the main stream? Does every person in the world who believes in Christ believe in the same person? When you think of "mother" Do you think of the same person as I do? The I guess whoever you think of isn't your mother because you aren't thinking the same thing as I am. Who can say the "Christ" they believe in is the same Christ that walked and taught in Galilee and suffered in Gethsemane for our sins? What makes what you believe any more accurate or true than what I believe? Each of us is free to believe what we believe.

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 1:36 p.m.

    Well Read should read up!

    Who does he think comprise the tea party? Certainly not the far right. they are never out of line. They are courteous, well signed, and united in their love for our freedoms and constitution. Mitt Romney is a center line Republican who loves freedom and the constitution. He is the man for our day.
    He is Mr. Fix It in business and in repairing the huge damage done to our country by Barak Obama and the left wingers.

  • Grace Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 9, 2011 1:03 p.m.

    No, Filo DoughBoy, good question. Honest people would reply.

    Mormons will not let you call yourself a fellow LDS just because you claim a vision, rewrite the Book of Mormon and go around doing lots of great charity. Yet they insist that Biblical Christians let them claim that title based on those very actions from 1830 on. They changed the sacrifices that went on in Israel's holy temples to marriages and baptisms. They added books and ordinances and food laws to heaven's requirements. They changed the nature and DNA of God, humanized Him and gave man deification potential. Instead of ruling with Christ, we get to become ones. They propagated the God of the Bible's heaven with the same polygamous principles as Islam, yet they are upset that followers of the original Christ (first revealed and written about from 40-90 AD), don't say you're one of us.

    They won't acknowledge the FLDS as fellow Mormons, even though they follow all of Joseph's teachings. Yet they wanna join our ranks? They made that distinction in 1830.

    So, no. LDS will not allow us into their church, temples or heaven, just because we tried to crash their party.

  • Spikey Layton, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 1:01 p.m.

    Anthracite, you are somewhat correct, they don't get into the knitty gritty with each individual religion. Instead, they just lump all Christians together, call us all bigots because we don't all follow "their" way of thinking, and so forth. The left-leaning media make all Christians look bad, and like we are all leaning in one direction, that we don't think, that we're all hateful. I'm sorry, but I take issue with that.

    As for myself, I am LDS, mostly pro-gay, but feel that everybody's opinion counts and so to me, meeting in the middle is where it's at. But nobody (on either side) wants to meet in the middle.

    The problem is A) our two-party system and B) PRIDE. "You're wrong, and I'm right." I cry bull on that.

  • Bankshot7 Clearfield, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 12:57 p.m.

    It would be easier for an elephant to pass through the eye of a needle than for a "God Maker" to become president of the United States.

  • LDSareChristians Anchorage, AK
    Oct. 9, 2011 12:12 p.m.

    From an Amazon poster:
    QUOTE
    The problem is that when someone says, "Mormons aren't Christian" there's a huge gasp from the listener. The listener doesn't hear that the LDS church is doctrinally different.
    The listener hears that the LDS people don't believe in Christ. That is inaccurate. Ask any LDS person if they believe in Christ and they will say, "Yes".
    Why don't people just start calling the LDS church non-orthodox Christians (or Restorationist Christians as found on religioustolerance dot org)?
    Throw it in our face that we don't believe as you do, but accept the fact that we do believe in Christ.
    END QUOTE

    I agree 100 percent with the above.

  • OnlytheCross Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 9, 2011 11:53 a.m.

    I feel that Pastor Jeffress chose the wrong place to express his personal religious views on civic voting, although I understand his message. Part of the problem with his position is that we can't judge a person's sincerity when they're seeking office, or even their claim to be a born-again believer (i.e., spirit-filled). This wasn't the RNC, but the Values Summit, so he could express his values. He has also supported Senator Lieberman because of his Biblical positions.

    But he was speaking to a target group: Evangelicals supporting Romney, who are ignorant of Mormon doctrine, thereby assuming that he is a Biblical Christian. Because Romney and most Mormons continue to insist that they are "Christians just like all you Christians", the lazy public don't do their homework. They don't read every LDS prophet's insistence that all other churches are wrong, and that "the LDS Church is not part of the historic Christian church", (Pres. Hinkley on Larry King, 2001)

    If voters ask for full disclosure of a candidate's religious beliefs, they should be given. If he refuses to define his religious terms,
    then it's research time. Southern Baptists consulted LDS teachings in light of the Bible.

  • Filo Doughboy Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 9, 2011 11:23 a.m.

    NeilT:

    Read all the article and research all of Jeffress' comments:
    1- He never said anything about non-evangelicals being unfit for presidency. He said he would vote for Romney if he gets the Republican nomination. He only qualified his opinion that Christians should vote Christian, if a qualified candidate has Biblical policies. His example was Pres. Obama claiming to be Christian but espousing unbiblical policies.

    2- He spoke as a pastor, to evangelicals, his personal opinion, to which he said Perry probably did not agree. I don't think this was the proper venue, but he didn't break any constitutional laws Had he kept it in his pulpit, there would be no flap. Just like all of my LDS family prefer Romney over others more conservative, they trust "their own".

    3- He only speaks for himself and made that clear. Don't lump all evangelicals into one person. We don't quote Warren Jeffs for all Mormons, or for all FLDS.

    4- He was reiterating what the So. Baptist Convention has officially stated for years re: which churches or groups they consider outside Biblical teachings. You're just one of many who qualify per your own statements: Only LDS are right.

  • southmtnman Provo, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 10:47 a.m.

    Enough with the "no religious test" comments. Everybody knows that refers to LAWS that require a religious test. Individual voters and organizations like this values group CAN and DO use religious tests in evaluation of candidates.

    And please stop bashing Baptists in response to this pastor's comments. Isn't that the eye-for-an-eye approach? "You bashed us Mormons, so we're gonna' bash you back!" That'll show 'em!

    If we LDS want to be understood on our own terms, we must first seek to understand others on their own terms.

    How many of us have truly taken the time to learn about the doctrines and history of the Baptists? Have we learned from official publications and representatives of the Baptist religion, or have we just listened to what other LDS have told us? We expect others to learn of us through the Church website, by reading the Book of Mormon, by watching General Conference, and by participating in the missionary discusions.

    How many of us have watched Baptist broadcasts with a sincere heart, with real intent? How many of us have participated in Bible Study with a Baptist pastor?

    Treat others as we want to be treated.

  • NeilT Clearfield, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 10:46 a.m.

    To Als Atheist. You're comments are a gross distortion of LDS beliefs and aren't even worthy of a rebuttal. There is no salvation in the law of moses. That is a core of LDS doctrine and does not contradict any scripture. How can a church which helps millions of people through it's humanitarian services, social and welfare program be defined as a cult. Satan does not go about doing good in the world. Latter Day Saints do. God has never sent destruction without first sending prophets to warn people. The idea that God delights in human suffering or destruction is ludicrous. It is evangelicals that believe in literal heaven or hell. Christians make no allowance for non-believers who had no opportunity to be born again in this existence.

  • Canuk SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 10:30 a.m.

    Well, Paul won hands down. He had 600 people come and listen to his talk, they voted and walked out. They listened to no one else. The people in charge are saying it's a false vote and can't be validated. So even they are not relying on it. Romney was way down, so Perry's minister had a real effect. I wonder if Beck had spoken before Romney if he would've gotten the cold shoulder. Beck made no bones about what church he belonged to and the Jesus was his Savior. He got a standing ovation. I wonder if he changed any minds. I know he doesn't support anyone, but his testimony of Christ might have helped.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Oct. 9, 2011 10:28 a.m.

    "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

    I think that you clearly do not understand the intent of this line.

    Regardless of Religion or race, etc etc one cannot be excluded from being on the ballot.

    People are free to use what ever criteria they choose in their voting preference.

    Including Race, Religion, height or weight, hair color or favorite ice cream flavor.

  • very concerned Sandy, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 10:10 a.m.

    Sometimes I ask myself, does anyone actually ever read the first amendment? The first sentence reads, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .

    Though the founders were by and large Christians, they did not specifically put in the term, Christian religion. I believe the First Amendment applies to all law-abiding Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Confucianists, etc., etc. In my understanding, that is the whole point of the first part of the First Amendment. I believe it is very inapropriate to say as did Bryan Fisher as referenced in the article - that the First Amendment protects only Christians. I try to follow Jesus Christ. As such, I feel it is my duty to strive for tolerance and respect for those who choose other religious creeds.

    Also, Joseph Smith added further clarity to freedom of religion in the Eleventh Article of Faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 9:39 a.m.

    Nobody gets to look objectively at what is a cult or religion or whatever, because people who believe do so as a matter of faith and therefore objectivity and proof aren't necessary. And that is exactly why religion needs to be kept out of politics. Romney should have told the world his religion was none of our business, and stick to his platform. Instead, they all chose to walk out into the muck, and sooner or later they all get covered in mud.

  • Swedish reader Stockholm, Sweden
    Oct. 9, 2011 9:29 a.m.

    The scariest part of this whole issue is that there are persons with some influence out there actually claiming that religious freedom should not apply to everyone, just to evangelical protestants. The thing that makes the US great is the mix of cultures, faiths and ethnic origins - there is (or used to be) a place for everyone. If this intolerant attitude gains influence in government, that whole "constitution hanging by a thread" thing will have become a fact.

  • NeilT Clearfield, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 9:10 a.m.

    This wouldn' have anything to do with Romney being the frontrunner would it? Just a thought. When I was in Elementary school a friend and his family visited Georgia during the summer. He told me that some people there thought Mormons had horns. I couldn't believe people could be so stupid or uniformed. Believe it.

    I find it interesting that evangelicals claim to revere the constitution and yet conveniently ignore it when certain parts don't fit their agenda. Doesn't the constitution make ir clear that anyone can serve in public office regardless of their relgion or lack if it. Evangelicals have made it clear that if you don't embrace their version of christianity you are unfit to be president.

    A thought about the tea party. There are times they have been uncivil and some of their followers do have bigoted views. I can document that.

  • Filo Doughboy Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 9, 2011 8:44 a.m.

    More distracions and feigned offense. How disingenuous. Instead of going to your Bible to see why Biblical Christians are warned about false teachers and teachings, you continue to cling to the counterfeit: another gospel, another Jesus.
    (Galations 1:6-8)

    So how will you react if I start a little "group" with my own revelations, scriptures, and artifacts and tell you that we are now the true Mormon church? You'll just roll over and let me join your party?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 8:39 a.m.

    Is there an article anywhere on this site that actually lists the results of this summit? I tried searching for santorum and only got something from before the vote. There's two articles about Romney and another with Romney's remarks. I understand that the anti-Mormon stuff will be highlighted in this newspaper, but come on... at least report the results too. If there isn't any reporting of the results that just makes the paper look biased to not note that Romney got decimated in this straw poll (I had to use a different site to find them).

  • Dadof5sons Montesano, WA
    Oct. 9, 2011 8:35 a.m.

    this Preacher Fisher will not even be a foot note in history and will dry up and blow away.

  • Charityalways Centerville, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 8:14 a.m.

    "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." -U.S. Constitution, Article VI.

  • als Atheist Provo, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 8:04 a.m.

    Mormons are ignoring one important thing: from the evangelical perspective, your religion IS very cult-like, and the Jesus you preach IS alien to New Testament Christianity. Try to understand where evangelicals are coming from (that is what you demand of everyone else - learn of Mormonism, you insist).

    3 Nephi 9 DOES present a distasteful picture of Jesus, destroying entire cities then threatening survivors with destruction if they don't worship him. There is nothing like that view of Jesus in the New Testament, and it directly contrasts with the living Jesus' life and teachings of peace, love, and mercy in the NT. A POTUS who believes in the angry Jesus could do unspeakable things.

    The 3rd Article of Faith DOES say salvation (may) come to mankind "by obedience to the laws and ordinances", which directly contradicts everything Paul wrote: there is NO salvation through the law (Torah), and the promise of salvation given to Abraham was given 400 years BEFORE the law was given. Focus on rites, rituals, laws and ordinances IS very cult-like and dangerous for all the reasons Paul gave.

    These are just two examples of the evangelical perspective on Mormonism. They are not trivial.

  • Rickety Kaysville, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 8:00 a.m.

    Who cares what people call you? Just respond with kindness and go on with your life.

  • Concerned and Involved Spanish Fork, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 7:55 a.m.

    Latter Day Saints will either allow these remarks to prove that we believe in Jesus Christ and prove it by our actions, or that we do not believe in him and rant and rave about the continued attacks on our beliefs. I agree with how Romney handled the situation. His speech was patriotic, articulate, conservative, on point, and complete. He needed to say no more and he needed to address no further issues. There comes a point in everyone's life that they must determine what they believe, regardless of who or what comes after them. I, personally, believe in Jesus Christ and will continue to do so. It seems to me that Romney has done the same.

  • cindyb CASPER, WY
    Oct. 9, 2011 7:38 a.m.

    It is of great concern that people who profess to be followers of Christ would spend their efforts spreading propaganda against the LDS faith, rather than to focus on bringing a worthy and experienced leader in to meet the task of literally saving our country from imploding.

    This reminds me of those in the book/movie "The Help" who considered themselves Christian and treated other humans with such disdain. Though it isn't much consolation during this serious contest for president, all people will someday meet the Lord at the judgement bar and will become more enlightened as to the consequences of their misdirected actions.

    With the influence and notoriaty of Jeffress and Fischer, it seems they could be doing so much more to advance the Lord's kingdom, rather than spreading lies and encouraging hate. A very sad commentary.

  • silas brill Heber, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 7:34 a.m.

    Jeffress said, "Do we want a candidate who is a good, moral person? Or do we want a candidate who is a born-again follower of the Lord Jesus Christ?"

    Yes, born-again Christians and good, moral people are mutually exclusive.

  • Rynn Las Vegas, NV
    Oct. 9, 2011 6:24 a.m.

    Okay I've seen examples of superiority complexes and self righteousness within some of the members of various religions over the years. I've always likened it to sports rivalries.
    But to say that someone is not entitled to First Amendment protections simply because you feel they don't have the same beliefs that you do? That is beyond ridiculous.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Oct. 9, 2011 5:52 a.m.

    Tell me what about the tea party is extreme?

    OK KM

    1) they love candidates like Bachmann and Palin. The rest of us know
    that those 2 are not presidential material. That is EXTREME.

    2) The T.Party is fine with shutting down the govt to make a point.
    Reasonable people pay the bills for things that they bought in the past.
    That is extreme.

    3) The T.Party demands that taxes are not raised from the lowest levels in
    50+ years. They would be mad at a deal that includes $10 in spending
    cuts to $1 in tax increase. That is EXTREME

    4) Their stance that ALL GOVT Regulation is bad is EXTREME. Fix the
    problems but dont shut down the EPA or the FDA. THey do much good.


    We need a party that ONLY wants to tackle FISCAL issues. THat is Not the T party.

  • BMW San Antonio, Texas
    Oct. 9, 2011 5:48 a.m.

    Canuk-Who does Glenn Beck speak for? Well...himself? Whew...I wouldn't want him speaking for me. If Glenn wants to make a difference he should run for a political office and not sell books to(prey) on Utah repubilicans.

  • Razzle2 Bluffdale, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 5:45 a.m.

    What? These are fine words from Fischer. (today only perhaps) The elephant is really invisible if this is the worst they have on Romney's faith but not a clear statement against Romney.

    "immediately proclaimed that the next president must be of 'sincere, authentic, genuine, Christian faith'"
    "We need a president who believes in the same creator that the Founders believed in."

    To those that know Mormons, they will hear these words and include Romney.

  • JSB Sugar City, ID
    Oct. 9, 2011 2:22 a.m.

    Let me get this straight. Mormons aren't Christian because they believe in the Biblical Christ and they do not accept the non Biblical Christ described in the man-made creeds written hundreds of years after Christ. Mormons aren't Christians because they love Jesus and strive to keep his commandments and believe there are favorable eternal consequences for those that diligently strive to follow Him. "Real" Christians believe that all you have to do is "accept" Christ and you are home free. Striving to obey Christ's commandments is a waste of time and has no eternal consequences.

  • Neanderthal Edmonton, Canada
    Oct. 9, 2011 12:14 a.m.

    @annewandering:

    "Texas governor did not say that Romney was not a good follower of Christ."

    He may not have said it but 10 to 1 he was nodding in silent agreement.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    Oct. 8, 2011 11:34 p.m.

    Let the truth be known. This pastor is a surrogate to do the dirty work for Perry. He makes the claim. Perry denies believing in it. But the damage gets done.
    Let the truth also be known. The preacher industry of the Bible Belt feels their business is threatened by other growing religions, especially the Mormons. It translates into lost dollars.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 11:24 p.m.

    What happens when you can't argue your way out of a challenge to your believs using knowledge? Values!

  • Winglish Lehi, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 11:17 p.m.

    One more reason why any candidate endorsed by the Toilet Paper Party will not get my vote.

    Extremism is by definition opposed to conservativism. The TP is extreme, just as dangerous in my view as the far left.

  • lds4gaymarriage Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:55 p.m.

    I saw that pastor Jeffress on Fox saying that we are a cult because cults are founded by men, rather than by Jesus as he claimed his church was. He also stated that we are a cult because we believed in an open canon.

    His first claim is laughable because the Southern Baptist Convention, to which he belongs, was founded over the issue of whether clergy could keep slaves. The SBC said that they could and broke away from other Baptists. The Catholics would also laugh at his claim that Jesus founded.

    As far as an open canon, the early Christians believed in it enough to allow the writings of the apostles to be given more weight than the hebrew prophets. A number of Protestant theologians also admit that the verse in Revelation allegedly forbidding adding to the bible refers only to the Revelation and not the Bible as a whole since it wasn't assembled as a whole for another 200 years.

    Since the doctrine of the Trinity is a mixture of Christianity and Greek/Pagan philosophy, Evangelicals really should be careful with calling others a cult. The phrase Pot-Kettle-Black comes to mind.

  • KM Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:28 p.m.

    well read

    You and other extremist leftist call names at the tea party saying they are "extreme and radical." Tell me what about the tea party is extreme? Is it that they want to slow down or stop the out of control spending by our congress? Is that so radical?

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:31 p.m.

    BH, Great comment! Personally, I am ashamed of what many people have made the Republican party into. I am an old style conservative that believes that liberalism and conservatism are being twisted today to counter our freedom. Mainstream television and online media and their worshipers aid this fallacious logic and I find it very displeasing.

    Phranc, I can easily see where you are coming from. There are certainly those that think that all Islamic persons are terrorists and want to destroy our freedom (even against their own religious leaders cautions). I know people who are very intelligent, capable, and mostly kind- yet hate all immigrants, anyone Islamic, and so on. It's hypocritical and wrong. I hardly view the idea as conservative, if you read my above rational... I think this is sadly one of these 'twists'.

    I personally believe there are far more threats from the 'main stream' that demand agreement from 'party members' and a lack of representation in favor of non-representative popular acceptance- and many other problems in our broken system.

    Peter, while I personally find Romney the logical choice in many regards- I also agree with your small government premise and voting on principle.

  • Well Read SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:27 p.m.

    It seems to me the Republican Party is on the verge of making sure that the American Voters re-elect President Obama. There has never been either a far right or a far left candidate for president elected President. I do not believe it will happen in 2012.

    If the Republican party does not quit pandering to the T Party - they will lose the election and possibly control of the house.

    History has shown that the united States has always been governed either center left or center right.

    The thinking American voter are getting very tired of the T Party who have brought the government to the brink of a shut down twice. Threatened once, and will probably again try to shut down the government in November when the continuing resolutions will need to be passed. If they do in will probably assure that the Republicans lose big in 2012. My opinion!

  • Anthracite Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:12 p.m.

    "Elephant" is appropriate. The donkey doesn't make an issue of such things.

  • Resolute Voice Deseret, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:10 p.m.

    There was no reason to respond. All he had to do was ignore it and move on. A response only feeds the trolls that have nothing of substance or validity to offer anyone. Politicians have large egos. Sometimes those egos get in the way. Mr. Romney needs to ignore ignorance.

  • excellence25@hotmail.com Smithfield, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 8:46 p.m.

    To suppose that Mitt Romney is something other than what he represents himself to be is nothing more than mystifying. As has been alluded to before, when anybody else does something it is all right but boy when a Mormon comes along look out. Give me a break! Religion aside,there is a standard and if one represents the standard as it ought to be, then look out you are in fact in for a good experience. And Mr. Romney does in fact represent that standard and he does it well.

  • peter Alpine, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 8:37 p.m.

    Isn't it unfortunate that we need to vote for someone based on who can beat Obama instead of someone who is founded on Constitutional principles, i.e. small central government, etc. I think that the GOP has many good candidates that will help right the ship economically. But, who can win this race that will downsize big government? Are the people ready to return to self-reliance and independence, relying less on government dole?

  • Phranc SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 8:34 p.m.

    @voice of reason

    because so many people that visit these threads seem to unjustly fear islam and think the Islamic religion is going to take over.

  • lsteinbentley South Jordan, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 8:05 p.m.

    I am proud of Romney for not sinking to their level. I think Romney gave a fantastic speech and I would definitely have given him a standing ovation if I had been there. Romney is our country's best chance to regain what we have lost.

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:32 p.m.

    Phranc:
    It seems to me the LDS church and its members have far more to fear here in the US from the christian right then they ever will from the islamic religion or atheists.

    Great observation Phranc. Persicuting Latter Day Saints by right wing "Christians" fulfills biblical prophecy. We who believe and serve in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints should feel complemented by their verbal persecution. They obviously think even less of non believers and our Jewish and Muslem brothers. Are we to be considered infedels too?

  • MormonConservative A Tropical Paradise USA, FL
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:28 p.m.

    A Christie Candidacy Would Cripple Romney - If Christie runs, though, it would be a calamity for Romney. While it is fashionable to paint the Republicans as a party of extremists, the truth is that the GOP is variegated. Are Mormons Christians, in your view? Should the fact that Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are Mormons influence how we think of them as candidates?.
    1. Though you were reared Mormon, you have described yourself as not overly religious. I can imagine that is doubly unhelpful in winning the votes of evangelical Christians who figure so heavily in the Republican primary season: on the one hand, many of them have been taught that the Mormon church is a cult on the other, many of them are looking for a candidate they regard as godly. How do you persuade conservative evangelicals to vote for you? More question's for Romney.

    2. If not religion, what do you use as your guide in deciding what is right and what is wrong?

    3. Was your religion a factor in your decision to support gay marriage and civil unions?

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:20 p.m.

    It was a just a matter of time that the negativity turned to this. I don't think anyone is surprised. But you know what, if it wasn't his mormonism, it would be something else. There is always going to be a group, a certain part of the population that feels the need to judge and dislike another group based on any number of reasons. If you are the governor of New Jersey, it is weight. It could be anything. Age, race, ethnicity, religion, career, home state, school he went to..... the color of his shirt.

    So I really don't worry too much about these types of things. Someone is going to dislike you. Not much you can do about it. In this case it is self righteous evangelicals.... which is fine because I don't see them as being too Christian either.

    Works out well that way....

  • don17 Temecula, CA
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:20 p.m.

    Gov. Perry's silence is just fine. It clearly shows that he is a bigot if he is not willing to denounce his minister buddy who is willing to deny Mormons and other people of Religion a basic right! Gee Wiz why not stand silent on this and other matters Gov. Perry? Can't you figure out without your handlers what the right thing to do is? Sure Gov. Perry don't defend fellow Americans. But then, don't figure on getting the nomination either! You need to carry every state you can. If the Republican Party truelly has a big tent then someone's religion will not be an issue. This is great, fundamentalist Christians who support Perry and believe this minister speaks the truth are in fact similarly guilty as was President Obama of sitting in Rev. Wrights congregation and never saying anything about the vile words of hatred he spewd. Look at what we got! If you want to learn English ask a English Professor. If you want to learn Math ask a Math professor. If you want to learn about Mormonism ask a Mormon. If you want to lose the election Mr. Perry ask your minister to speak louder!

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:01 p.m.

    annewandering, thank you for the correction. I actually did know this but I copied the paragraph and simply removed everything but the quote and the wrong name by mistake. Pastor Robert Jeffress is the correct reference.

    I believe Perry said something along the lines of 'It's not my place to judge others, that's for God to do'.

    -------

    Phranc,

    I actually believe that there is a great deal of the evangelical world that would embrace either LDS teachings, or at least would embrace the LDS Church as a 'Christian neighbor' (so to speak...) if they understood our position and not what others would make it out to be. If one reads the Bible, they can find it's words. If one reads a criticism of the Bible, they will find only words used against the Bible. If one truly wishes to understand the beliefs of the LDS Church, whether to inquire or to simply be informed, they would do best by learning from the Church and not those against the Church.

    Question: I've never seen Islamic attacks on LDS views. Some atheists have, as I believe atheism, unlike agnosticism, is inherently 'anti-theism' and 'against others beliefs' ... but why Islam?

  • Canuk SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:56 p.m.

    Glenn Beck at his talk to the same forum said that he held no grudge about what was said. Then he said "I am a proud member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints and Jesus is my Savior." At the end of his talk, he
    received a standing ovation. The talk was worth hearing. Thanks Glenn for not skirting the issue and declaring what you believe!

  • BH Tremonton, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:44 p.m.

    Comments by many associated with the Republican party, such as those made by Fisher and Jeffress, are the sort of thing that have made so many like myself no longer want to be associated with that party any longer. I am still a strong conservative, but because of people like this I would never call myself a Republican. These people teach hatred in the name of Christ. And then they have the nerve to stand in judgement of others, such as the faith of Islam, stating that it is a religion of "war and violence and death". I would challenge Mr. Fisher to look at some of the terrible things that have been done in this world in the name of Christianity.

    Bill Bennett hit the nail when he said "they must not 'give voice to bigotry,' arguing that ugly distractions like these would hurt the GOP." Thank you, Mr. Bennett, for a voice of reason on a time when there seems to be so little.

  • Timothy Benton City, WA
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:43 p.m.

    Mr.Romney should really come to his senses and cease courting the support of people who are,for the most part,certainly not going to vote for him..And I have quite a bit of personal experience with evangelicals in which to state an informed opinion...I grew up Catholic around such spiritual zealots and quite often felt the brunt of their intolerance,bigotry,and downright hatred..Among the nicer things I was called "Timmy, are nothing but a no-good papist reprobate who,if you do not get yourself saved,are doomed to eternity with Lucifer and his demons"...Actually I cleaned it up quite a bit so it might be printed..My point is this,southerners,mostly,hate Catholics,Mormons,and Minorities and they are very resistant to change and if Mitt Romney thinks they are going to support him,when push comes to shove,he is certainly engaging in delusional behavior..I do pity him as I think it is inherently wrong to judge a person by personal religious belief..He needs to stand up to these people,shun them,or they are going to cut him off at the knees..

  • JoCo Ute Grants Pass, OR
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:41 p.m.

    Do the leaders of the LDS church and Mormons in general still think that the new Tea Party dominated GOP is where they belong. Quit fighting the Democrats on homosexuality and imagined socialist agendas made up by the propaganda and think instead about when and where the new ultra-right wingers would intern the non-christians.

    According to the leaders of the Tea Party Republicans no Mormon is fit to be president and no Mormon is protected by the first amendment.

    About time the Tea Party showed their true colors.

  • annewandering oakley, idaho
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:11 p.m.

    To a Voice of Reason. Texas governor did not say that Romney was not a good follower of Christ. That was the minister. Go back and check and not the comma. Not that I support Perry because I dont but I had heard he actually defended Romney.

  • Phranc SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:10 p.m.

    It seems to me the LDS church and its members have far more to fear here in the US from the christian right then they ever will from the islamic religion or atheists.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 5:35 p.m.

    From the article - Texas Gov. Rick Perry, said yesterday that Romney isn't a "genuine follower of Jesus Christ"

    If one's definition of being a "genuine follower of Jesus Christ" is by spending one's time criticizing other people for their believing in Jesus Christ- then I suggest there is a serious difference in how some people are defining "genuine" and "follower". One cannot say "I follow Christ" and their actions not reflect such words, but reflect personal attacks instead.

  • Canuk SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 5:25 p.m.

    Doesn't it kind of remind you of the question about satan? It gives
    perry plausible deniability, but the damage is out there.
    The EPA is shutting down power plants (28 giga whatever), prices will
    skyrocket, people will die;
    fast & furious is killing Americans and a couple of hundred Mexicans thanks to this admin letting guns walk across the border (2,000) with our tax money; solydra is a mess, but "not all companies will succeed" the Pres says, but it's not his money- 1/2 billion that is - no apologies, nothing;
    7 billion was thrown out on Friday to other solar companies or the money would have go back to the gov!
    But we are concerned about "how many angels can sit on the head of a pin".