U.S. & World

Rick Perry backer decries Mitt Romney, Mormons


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  • scwoz gambier, oh
    Oct. 12, 2011 10:00 a.m.

    Christ Commanded Love the Lord Your God then Love your neighbor as I have loved you, That requires you have a love of Christ and his virtues. Love your neighbor. He didn't say if they are main stream Christian, he said Love your Neighbor. That means all of mankind, even those you disagree with. Speak Peace. Be still and know God is there. Preach the Gospel to everyone you meet. Be BOLD and open your mouth, God will fill in the words. "Mormons" have a great deal to offer the world, especially the state it is in today, I find it hard to believe that we have to fight other "Christians" to offer it. Don't contend with these people offer them the truth and a chance to accept it, it is their responsibility from that point on. Thanks

  • vic Colorado Springs, CO
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:09 p.m.

    Who cares whether or not mormonism is considered a cult, or for the matter the spawn of the devil.

    I am more concerned with this radical group trying to invalidate something else and that is the first amendment: Freedom of religion.

    I am also concerned with these people trying to make the issue about the establishment cause of the Constitution. If a mormon isn't good enough to become president of the U.S.; it appears to me that they are than saying that only a Baptist, or a Luthern, or Anglican is good enough for pres, but not a mormon.
    The U.S. is a republic not a theocracy.

  • jimhale Eugene, OR
    Oct. 10, 2011 11:01 a.m.

    It was not Joseph Smith who "changed the whole meaning of God" mentioned above.

    It was Constantine, then not yet himself a Christian by anyone's definition, who changed the tenets of "historical Christianity" by insisting that over half the bishops of the church were wrong in believing that Christ and his Father were two distinct beings.

    Constantine wanted one standard definition of God (and therefore of Christians) for his own political purpose of unity in his empire.

    Jeffress on Sunday criticized the Mormon Church for being founded 1800 years after Christ.

    Laying the late century origin of the Southern Baptists to the side, Jeffress's version of "historical Christianity" began with Constantine - a non-Christian... three centuries after Christ.

    But what's 1500 years among friends.

  • jimhale Eugene, OR
    Oct. 10, 2011 10:41 a.m.

    Rev. Jeffress would have been okay if he had said: I'm an evangelical Christian and Perry is an evangelical Christian and evangelical Christians, all things being equal, should support evangelical Christians - and, oh by the way, in this race I don't think all other things are equal.

    That would be like me saying: I'm a Latter Day Saint and Romney is a Latter Day Saint and Latter Day Saints, all things being equal, ought to support Latter Day Saints -- and, oh by the way, in this race I don't think all other things are equal.

    Four years ago, I didn't think all other things were equal and so did not support Romney. Now, things are not equal in reverse: Romney is clearly the best available choice.

    On Sunday, Jeffress said he'd prefer a Non-Christian like Romney over Barack Obama.

    I'd prefer a non-Mormon like Perry over Barack Obama, too.

    The language difference here is not that great.

    Of course, had Jeffress said the above instead of what he did say, he would have made no news....and would not hope to sell as many copies of his book on this subject when it comes out in January.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 10:03 p.m.

    "After a generation of losing membership to the Latter Day Saints during the 1960's and 70's, evangelical ministers went on the offense ....as a means of better defense against those young men in the white shirts."

    In the US evangelicalism has been growing faster than the LDS church the past decade.
    %change in past 18 years in ARIS survey for US
    Evangelical/Born-Again +294.7%
    Pentecostal/Charismatic +40.7%
    LDS +27.0%

  • Kevin Surrey, BC
    Oct. 9, 2011 3:19 p.m.

    This whole Perry & Jeffers pony show reminds me of tag-team wrestling. The whole thing is scripted and they try to put on a good show but no one is really buying it. The crowd watches and gets a few laughs but that is it. They do one thing in public but then give each other the high 5's back in the locker room on their excellent execution. The American voter is smarter than all this rhetoric and will express that in the voting booth. There won't be too many high 5's after that.

  • als Atheist Provo, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 10:29 a.m.

    I get together with some of my atheist friends once in a while. (I have never been to an atheist convention or conference. I am not a "member" of any atheist club or group or organization. I don't even know of any.) When we discuss politics, I have never had anyone say "Your brand of atheism is the wrong brand! You are not a 'true' atheist, and that makes you a 'cult' and unworthy of civil rights protections!"

    Nobody has ever tried to argue that my unique brand of atheism implies certain unacceptable political views: like my lack of belief in any god means I would be too soft on terrorism, or insensitive to the plight of the poor and elderly. In fact, we atheists would have a hard time stirring up any kind of sectarian argument over the "articles of faith" of atheism even if we wanted to. There are none. Nothing to argue about.

    But leave it to the believers to turn on one another and battle over who is the 'true' believer, and disqualify one another for political legitimacy because of subtle differences in the fictional stories in which you believe.

    Time for an atheist POTUS?

  • Kirk R Graves West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 10:00 a.m.

    sharrona | 11:35 p.m. Oct. 8, 2011
    No, not wrong, just a different interpretation. Once again you qoute scripture at me thinking it will destroy my faith, but it doesn't. I have no problem with the verses you quoted because they do not contradict my faith, they only uphold it. The difference is that I have a different view of what those verses mean than you and your pastor. If you understood LDS doctrine, you would know that.

  • Julianne North Salt Lake, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 9:06 a.m.

    We are not a cult like these so called Baptist think we are. We believe in Jesus Christ and if we didn't, there wouldn't be is name in our name. So you Southern Baptist or even Baptist think that we are a cult will have to answer to the Lord when it comes time for you to face the Lord for your actions. It doesn't matter what religion you belong to we are all Americans so Love One Another As Jesus Loves You.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Oct. 9, 2011 7:12 a.m.

    Until we act upon that faith and obey the commandments we shall be as the goats and cast ont he left hand of God. By Sharrona's definition all we have to do is have faith and by the grace of Jesus Christ we shall be saved. This is false teachings. This is what the evangelicals teach. This is not the teachings of Christ. Again the major differences between mainstream Christians and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is theological. Until a person come before the Father with a broken heart, a contrite spirit and real intent, their prayers are subject to not being answered in the manner they want it answered. Just as the joke sort of says when did thou answer my prayers, and the Father answers I sent the truck, the boat and the helicopter and ye refused them all the same will be said of us, I sent you the missionaries, I gave you the Book of Mormon, his servants visited you and you still failed to listen.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Oct. 9, 2011 7:07 a.m.

    or in prision, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethern, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." "Therefor ye are justified of faith and works through grace, to the end the promiste might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all." "What doth it profit, my brethern, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit. Even so faith, if it hath not work, is dead, being alone."

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Oct. 9, 2011 6:55 a.m.

    Sharrona: You are right it is a free gift. It is after all we can do for ourselves that grace is given. No one on earth can be saved in the kingdom of the father without the grace of Jesus Christ. This is a very valid teaching. How do we show our Love for the Savior, only by keeping his commandments. "And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came to me. The shall the righteous answer to him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee and hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink" When saw we thee a stranger, and thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick,

  • Oliver Orem, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 2:01 a.m.

    @OnlytheCross. Oh, so the bible recommends the worship of the symbol of the cross and the meddling of crazy pastors in politics? Okay. Please, spare us with your weird conclusions and assumptions. It's great you believe the bible. But are you so insecure that you have to tell everyone that yours is the best and only true thing and? Geez, live and let live.

  • Oliver Orem, UT
    Oct. 9, 2011 1:55 a.m.

    Oh, no Romney is not a Christian! Mormons are not Christian! (Biting my fist with a look of horror and dispair). So, the big boys don't want to play with us. What are we ever going to do?
    Seriously, who gives anything about what some dude somewhere says. I even don't know this pastor guy. He's a Perry man and knows what buttons to push in order to make his flock vote for Perry. So the whole thing is more disgusting than insulting. I pity fundamentalists. They are narrow-minded and insecure.

  • jimhale Eugene, OR
    Oct. 9, 2011 12:08 a.m.

    What really angered "other Christians" was the fact that members of their faiths became Latter Day Saints. That has especially angered ministers.
    That was true in Joseph Smith's day and it is true today. After a generation of losing membership to the Latter Day Saints during the 1960's and 70's, evangelical ministers went on the offense ....as a means of better defense against those young men in the white shirts.
    They are offensive still.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 11:35 p.m.

    Kirk R Graves. but we must be obedient to His commands to qualify for that Grace. Wrong ,grace(charis )is a free gift.
    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godnot by works, so that no one can boast. For we are Gods handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God PREPARED in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:8-9)

    A man is saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone , genuine faith produces good deeds. Martin Luthers response to James 2:18.
    You believe that there is ONE God. Good! Even the demons believe thatand shudder.(James 2:19). Even the demons believe in monotheism versus polytheism(Mormonism)..

    Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, Q. What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power. (5:2.).
    Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.(Mt 16:17)and God[is]spirit(pneuma), (John 4:24 Greek N.T.)

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 11:08 p.m.

    ["Who called every denomination an abomination?"

    Christ. (Maybe you should read and study Church history as well)]

    Just a hunch but I think most non-LDS Christians (I know the LDS church is christian but I needed a way to say "the other ones") find the idea of Christ saying that more offensive than the idea of Joseph Smith saying that.

    "Joseph started it all and his name goes in each slot. He accused every
    denomination of not being true Biblical believers, having no authority and he changed the very nature of God, the entire Bible and the requirements for heaven, right? That is his own stated claims in the BoM title page."

    No, the questions however are directed to the LDS so the answers are not what you think they are, but rather the answers are what the LDS church claims them to be, regardless of whether the LDS claims are accurate or not.

  • ChrisNSuz Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:55 p.m.

    One more thing that I love about being a Democrat and a Mormon. We don't get into dumb arguments like this.

  • DUPDaze Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:13 p.m.

    Alfred you failed the test, according to my BYU prof, my uncle the bishop, the Standard Works, The History of the Church, JS Teachings, Doctrines of Salvation and Brigham's Journal of Discourses.

    Joseph started it all and his name goes in each slot. He accused every denomination of not being true Biblical believers, having no authority and he changed the very nature of God, the entire Bible and the requirements for heaven, right? That is his own stated claims in the BoM title page.

    Well-meaning or not, his claims angered other Christians, just as every LDS here has expressed anger at Dr. Jeffress' comments. This argument isn't over Mitt's great personal life, policies or leadership qualifications. It was a blanket statement to Biblical Christians for whom religious beliefs are an issue: Study Mormonism and see if you want your president believing in heavenly mothers, celestial polygamy, evolving gods and men who can become one. For many it won't be an issue.

    Citizens have a right to know and Jeffress has a right to express his denomination's refutation of yours, just as you continue to teach your congragation that no one else has the truth except you. Capish?

  • ute alumni Tengoku, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 8:08 p.m.

    sounds like you know everything. the more someone thinks they know the less they truly know. good luck to your "temple" worthy wife.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:47 p.m.

    This isn't the election of 2008. These are (more serious) serious times. Yes, there are some that will not vote for Romney just because he is a Mormon, but I think that number is decreasing. When one gets pinched in the wallet, the better Romney looks and his Mormonism isn't that big of an issue. Plus, I think people are getting less stupid (prejudiced) on this stuff over time. Recent history has taught us that people will consider people outside the typical White Male box for President and the prejudice against Mormons will diminish over time like it has for African-Americans, Latinos, and women.

  • Just Thinking Outloud.. Merrimack, NH
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:47 p.m.

    TO: AMERICAN MAN everything you said is true. Let me rephrase my comments:

    The behavior of Protestants, like Dr. Jeffress, is very much like the reaction the Catholic Church leaders towards Martin Luther during the reformation. Martin Luther was labeled a heretic and treated to the harshest criticisms. Much like Joseph Smith he was rumored, among other unsubstantiated claims, to be mentally unbalanced. Martin Luther was said to have no authority to teach his beliefs and was persecuted for his beliefs.

    With that bit of background my comments may make more sense. It is history repeating itself.

    While I am not LDS I do have a love of history. If the LDS continue to practice an honest and sincere love of their gospel combined with kindness for their neighbors and critic's, the path to tolerance, and then acceptance, will happen just as it did for the Lutherans, and ultimately other Protestants.

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:43 p.m.

    The leading Baptist Rabbi in Dallas for Rick Perry is much like the Wrong Reverend Wright was to Barak Obama..It is the kiss of death for his election campaign. Latter Day Saints should feel complemented to be persecuted by such high level "religious" people. It fulfills biblical prophecy for our time. All he can do is fall off farther in the polls. Someone tell Gov. Parry that Releiious persecdution is no longer in vogue with middle America.

  • omahahusker Modesto, CA
    Oct. 8, 2011 5:11 p.m.

    The sad thing is that the real threat is outside the circle of Christianity. Just look at the Christian minister on trial in Iran. He will lose his life for not denouncing his faith. Pastor Jeffers from Dallas made a grave mistake to use the "C" word. While there is a lack faith coming from the White House, many voters will take another look at the current republican front runner and see the wisdom, knowledge and maturity and decide a change needs to be made at 1600 Penn. Ave. If Pastor Jeffers chooses to sit this election out and Pres. Obama is reelected, the threat from outside will become more difficult to deal with.

  • Everest American Fork, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 4:51 p.m.

    DUP. And others.
    The question isn't whether Mormons are Christians or cultists or otherwise. The question is whether that should have any bearing at all on your vote for president.

    Let's stop all the religious arguments from both sides. Faith of all kinds requires believing fantastic, unprovable things.

    Who should lead this struggling country?

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 4:38 p.m.

    @ Vanka

    "This is NOT the NT Jesus"

    Vanka, you are aware the most Christians (including Mormons) believe the NT Jesus was the OT Jehovah, right?

    The OT Jehovah destroyed the whole planet because of wickedness.

    You are, unfortunately, probably somewhat correct in saying that many members of the LDS church don't know much about other religions. However, this is the case for most people of all religions. I have talked to enough people of other religions in my life to know that this isn't just an LDS thing.

  • Alfred Edmonton, Canada
    Oct. 8, 2011 4:16 p.m.


    "Am I qualified to make a factual comment here?"

    Perhaps you should read and study the Standard Works.

    "Who first caused the rift?"

    Don't blame Smith for being attacked by the so-called Christians of his day.

    "Who called every denomination an abomination?"

    Christ. (Maybe you should read and study Church history as well)

    "Who said 'none of your preachers have any priesthood authority,' to the existing 1830 churches?"


    "Who said that we have supposed that God has always existed, but I tell you that He is an exalted man?"


    "Who said you, too, can become a god?"

    Christ, in the NT.

    "Who rewrote the entire KJV..."

    England's King James I.

    "...and you now use his JST?"

    Very few Mormons use it.

    "Who gave a new and uniquely LDS definition of heaven..."


    "...plural marriage..."

    Jacob, head of the 12 Tribes of Israel.

    "...the nature of God, Christ and the Holy Ghost..."

    Smith, from what he saw with his own eyes.

    "Word of Wisdom..."

    Smith, not by commandment.

    "...baptism for dead..."

    It's in the Bible.

    "...chance after death for eternal decision?"


  • joeyjr Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 8, 2011 4:06 p.m.

    I've never understood why the LDS church uses a book that they consider "corrupted." That would be like using a math book with half of the answers right.

  • OnlytheCross Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 8, 2011 3:57 p.m.

    Thank you Joe Blow, you made my point. I ran out of room before I could update to my current spiritual condition:

    I am a born-again Christian now for the past 20 plus years. Meaning I experienced the spiritual birth that all the nutty (as I used to consider them) 'born agains' refer to. Quite unexpected, certainly not a choice I would have made from my Mormon perspective. It hurt, infuriated, baffled and agonized my family. Now I am an historical, Biblical Christian and they reject me. Yet they are trying to make Biblical Christians accept their redefinitions of what Christ gave 2,000 years ago.

    My point was that Joseph's little group has grown, so now they want to be considered mainstream. It's your teachings and beliefs that detetmine this, not how many flood victims you help. Mohammed had a small group at one time, but its size doesn't determine its religious affiliation. Muslim's good deeds, charitable giving, polygamy, angel-inspired holy book and revelations don't make them Mormons, even if they insist it.

    The Bible has one God, no heavenly mothers or wives; angels and demons were created by Christ, they are not His siblings.

  • live4uid PLEASANT GROVE, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 3:31 p.m.

    In reality, while most Mormons lean Republican, there really is no party that 100% agrees with the LDS faith. I refuse to join any political party and continue to vote unaffiliated because at the end of the day my religion does come first and does influence all of my political choices which is why some people who don't like Romney worry about whether a strong member of the church will truly be able to keep his religion out of politics. Many of us worry Obama has let his religion (whatever it is) influence his choices and we don't like this, why should others feel differently? Don't get me wrong, I like Romney, but worry for him in this regard.

  • Varnka Salt Lake City, utah
    Oct. 8, 2011 2:55 p.m.

    it is your choice and yours only that allows you to be so irritated/negative to the LDS church

  • Mr. Bean Edmonton, Canada
    Oct. 8, 2011 2:48 p.m.


    "Any true Christian knows there are NO laws and ordinances of the gospel."

    Oh? It would seem the Ten Commandments are 'laws' and baptism is an 'ordinance.'

    "There is no salvation in laws and ordinances as the Mormons assert."

    I guarantee, if you ignored/violated the Ten commandments you'd be found lacking in God's Kingdom.

    It's said: "All have sinned and come short of the Kingdom of Heaven." Christ died to pay the price for those sins, yet, if one does not repent Christ's death is meaningless for them. Nothing else makes any sense.

    You can't go through life in wonton sinfulness and expect God to say, at the judgement bar: "That's OK son, you musta had a good time on earth robbing, raping, cheating, beating your fellow man to a pulp, even killing many, but, not to worry, Christ paid for all your monstrous deeds and grievous sins. You come on in an siddown on my throne. Too bad your fellow men who spent their entire lives feeding the hungry and seeing to the needs of the poor didn't fair any better than you. Those silly nitwits."

  • DUPDaze Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 8, 2011 2:34 p.m.

    Do your homework, Mormons. I taught seminary, Gospel Doctrine, was Relief Society Education counselor, had 4 years of seminary, 2 years at BYU, first 35 years of my life. I was an active, evangelistic Mormon. In my family I've got missionaries, (Mom on her second now in Wash DC), BYU profs, bishops, elder's quorum and R.S. and stake presidents, one general authority, published authors, a former mission president (Ukrain's first), temple workers, etc. Am I qualified to make a factual comment here?

    Read the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Then answer the following:

    Who first caused the rift? Who called every denomination an abomination?
    Who said 'none of your preachers have any priesthood authority', to the existing 1830 churches?
    Who said that we have supposed that God has always existed, but I tell you that He is an exalted man?
    Who said you, too, can become a god?
    Who rewrote the entire KJV and you now use his JST?
    Who gave a new and uniquely LDS definition of heaven, plural marriage, the nature of God, Christ and the Holy Ghost, Word of Wisdom, baptism for dead, chance after death for eternal decision?

    Claim your own history.

  • DaveRL OGDEN, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 2:31 p.m.

    With no viable choices the GOP has taken to fighting among themselves and says a lot about the kind of people steering the party.

  • Kirk R Graves West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 2:28 p.m.

    I know you would like to believe that Mormons are only Mormons because they don't study or understand the bible (thus all your quotes in attempt to prove your point). The truth is that for each reference you provide, additional references can be provided the support the LDS view of God, the Gospel, Salvation, Exhaltation and priesthood authority. The primary difference is that you would have to ignore those verses in order to maintain your view, where as I have no problem with the verses you reference because they in no way contridict LDS doctrine when put in context and used with the rest of the Bible. If you truly understood LDS doctrine on these points you would see that.

    Just to help you out: LDS doctrine says that only through faith on Christ can one be saved by His Grace. However, if we stopped there, that would seem contridictory to many verses in the Bible. So lets finish it. Faith MUST include work, otherwise it isn't faith (Faith without works...). Only Christ's Grace can save, but we must be obedient to His commands to qualify for that Grace.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Oct. 8, 2011 2:11 p.m.

    I respect ONLYTHECROSS posting, in that it is at least and honest admission of the LDS belief.

    He writes -

    "We just quoted every prophet since 1830:
    They're all wrong. Their Bible is corrupted. Only the Book of Mormon is accurate and purely God-breathed. All their ministers are corrupt, and have no priesthood authority, making their marriages and baptisms of no effect eternally.

    We ended with this: If you don't accept Mormonism, your part of heaven will be minus Christ. "

    What I don't understand is this.

    You believe what is written above, but get your nose bent out of shape when others don't accept you as Christian. Is it just the wording?

    Let me ask you this. Which is more hurtful? What you believe about ALL THE OTHER CHURCHES, or being called Non-Christian?

    You better get thicker skin if you wanna throw those big stones.

  • bassiley Provo, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 1:46 p.m.

    I mean honestly, did we really expect anything different from Perry when we were first introduced to him? We knew that at some point or another, Perry was going to take the "Huckabee approach" amongst evangelical voters, it was just a matter of time....

  • Gruffi Gummi Logan, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 1:32 p.m.

    To some (to Catholics, for example), Baptists are cultists and apostates...

  • jimhale Eugene, OR
    Oct. 8, 2011 1:22 p.m.

    Aa a former evangelical Christian who joined the Mormons at age 20, I find Dr. Jefress very interesting.

    Dr Jeffress has just criticized the LDS Church as being led by a man rather than by God. He called out Joseph Smith by name.

    And yet his own ministry couldn't possibly be about a man could it?

    Check out his First Baptist Dallas website....see his congregation's new giant-sized parking garage going up beside the construction of a new church building....on some of Dallas's most valuable real estate.

    His congregation's seven-city-block downtown campus is about to trade in it's current Tabernacle-sized sanctuary for a Conference Center-sized "worship center".

    What this pastor fears when he equates a vote for Romney as "legitimizing a cult" is really that having a Mormon as president might de-legitimize his own preaching of religious bigotry.

    And, of course, he just happens to have a book coming out in January...about how Christians should decide how to vote.

    It's too bad really. I could follow "a good, moral man" like Jeffress. It's just his personality cult approach to ministry that makes me unwilling to support him.

  • A-25 American Fork, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 1:15 p.m.

    Interesting how a pastor, whose church is founded on John the Baptist (not Jesus Christ), has qualified himself to judge the Church of Jesus Christ as not being Christian. Perhaps the good pastor should study and apply the words of Christ in the Holy Bible about Christian behavior.

    Keep an eye on Mitt Romney and other faithful members of the LDS Church. See how they rrespond. You'll see, pastor, how a true Christian responds.

    Matt 7:21 - "By their works ye shall know them. And every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, is hewn down and cast into the fire."

  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    Oct. 8, 2011 1:13 p.m.

    P/S could you imagine the Savior going around saying to those that believed in him and followed him, that they were not Christians, cause maybe they were not as perfect as he is? I do think that it isn't Christ like to call those that love the Savior and follow him "non-Christians". And even though my belief in the Savior is different then the majority of the followers of Christ, I do accept that they are Christians as am I, but I do feel that their attacks towards the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS are not actions that exemplify the Savior and how he would speak about others.

  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    Oct. 8, 2011 1:10 p.m.

    Well, I am a Mormon, that is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I know I am a Christian, so if I am a Christian and all those who in other religions say we are not, maybe they are not Christians. If they think it has to be either way, then I vote for them to not be the Christians and then I don't have to throw away all my calenders and artwork of the Savior and my Christus statue. So guess I fixed that problem ;)

  • CougarBlue Heber City, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 12:24 p.m.

    Dear Pastor in my opinion your belief of Christ is not biblically based. Christ was in the water when his Father spoke from Heaven. I think your theory on Christ sounds like he used ventriloquism and deception. He was in the Garden when his Father spoke to him. Again, your theory, to me, uses ventriloquism to explain how he can be in one place yet in another place.

    In John 17 Jesus said he came to do the will of the Father. Is he a liar, when according to your belief they are the same person, yet separate. He said he wanted his disciples to be one as his Father and He are one. Does that mean the 12 apostles are to become one person in body and spirit. No it means to be one in unity and purpose and goal. In the scriptures Christ tells us if we are not one we are not His.

    According to the scriptures you sir are not a Christian. You believe in a Christ and a God who simply do not exist. The modern view of Christ appeared in the 4th century after the Council of Nice. Not scripturally supported.

  • OnlytheCross Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 8, 2011 12:13 p.m.

    Broken Clay said it all: Chose a side and stick with it.
    Are you part of the "abomination" of apostates who corrupted the Bible and distorted original Christianity (per Joseph Smith's initial and unwavering proclamation), or are you the "one and only true church of Jesus Christ", (which is restated every Fast and Testimony "Sabbath")?

    I was born and raised LDS and go back generations to English pioneers, persecuted there for converting, coming here and treking from east to west, some dying in the Willey Handcart tragedy. Temlpe-married, BYU-educated, taught and served in every auxillary, ward and stake positions. From the '50's to the '80's, I knew how to share the Mormon message and gospel, unlike the Joseph deniers here. We didn't waffle and whine when asked what we thought of evangelicals, catholics or protestants. We just quoted every prophet since 1830:
    They're all wrong. Their Bible is corrupted. Only the Book of Mormon is accurate and purely God-breathed. All their ministers are corrupt, and have no priesthood authority, making their marriages and baptisms of no effect eternally.

    We ended with this: If you don't accept Mormonism, your part of heaven will be minus Christ.

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 12:04 p.m.


    I appreciate your condescending offer, but I am married to an active, temple-worthy LDS woman, with whom I attend LDS "meetings" every week. I have had "the discussions" no less than 5 separate times over 20+ years, and have read the BOM and taken "Moroni's Challenge" countless times with NO faith-confirming results. The non-falsifiable form of Moroni's Challenge is patently fallacious, no different than the assertion of the Tailors in the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. If you don't get "the right" answer to Moroni's Challenge, you are personally condemned as insincere, unworthy, too proud, or otherwise deficient in some way.

    At the risk of sounding arrogant, I will suggest that I know more about Christianity than 99% of LDS members. I have yet to meet an LDS member or leader who has proven that wrong, present company included.

    In addition to the disqualifying doctrines of salvation by "obedience" to "laws and ordinances", LDS also put forward a Jesus who brags about destroying 16 large cities filled with men, women, and children, then threatening the survivors with destruction of they do not worship him (see 3 Nephi 9). This is NOT the NT Jesus.

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 11:43 a.m.

    Vanka | 11:03 a.m. Oct. 8, 2011
    Provo, UT
    "MajMajor, Who am I to judge? First, I am not a Christian, so I am not bound by the "judge not" principle."

    Well, if you ever want to learn about Christianity, I can get you the names of two great teachers in your neighborhood that would be pleased to teach you.

    God bless and wish you much happiness. (This is my fourth post, no more allowed.)

    With much respect,

  • Andermart Pullman, WA
    Oct. 8, 2011 11:32 a.m.

    We appreciate all of the interest from formers, and from others curious about the Christianity level of 14,500,000 "Mormons". You all have a divine right to your interpretation of Biblical truths, as well as a constitutional right. But please remember that we have that same right as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    We join 650 other Christian sects in believing in the Bible wholeheartedly while not fully agreeing with every interpretation you believe in. It is still the Bible, and it is still about Our Savior and His Gospel. Our Great Exemplar, Jesus Christ, had the same disagreements with many of the well established religious leaders of His day, but that did not deter Him from boldly going forth, teaching His interpretation, which happened to be the one true interpretation.

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 11:03 a.m.


    Who am I to judge?

    First, I am not a Christian, so I am not bound by the "judge not" principle.

    If you read, wrote, and understood Biblical Greek, you would know that there is a fundamental difference between "works" as used by James (one who has faith will manifest "good works") and "Works" as in "Torah" and "Nomos" - salvation by "laws and ordinances", which is what the LDS 3rd Article of Faith explicitly states.

    There is no doubt, LDS believe in salvation by Torah - "laws and ordinances", and this fact is manifest in their belief in "obedience" that makes "the atonement of Christ" contingent on "earning" that salvation through obedience.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:33 a.m.

    Kirk R Graves, Mormons don't meet the definition that YOU(Jesus) have of what a Christian is.
    Jesus defines an essential of the Christian faith. I told you that you would die in your sins. If you dont believe that I Am(Ego Eimi), you will die in your sins.(John 8:24 Greek N.T.) Jesus tells the Jewish leaders the same thing he told Moses He is God, blasphemy to the Jewish leaders which will lead to His death.
    Christianity, believes God by definition is the uncreated creator of all things, Aseity.
    Creation ex Nihlio. the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7). Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home Fallen angels(devils) Nothing to with pre mortal being.
    The Bible teaches God becomes man not man becomes (God John 1:1,14). Christians want to be with God Mormons want to be God(exaltation).

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:18 a.m.

    Also, Mitt makes no mention whatsoever of preserving the constitution on his website.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:16 a.m.


    "Obama put us in deep financial trouble. Romney coulr get us out of that hole."

    This is exactly what I mean when I talk about getting past your favoritism and looking at the mans previous actions.

    Writing the bill for Obamacare
    In favor of a global carbon tax.
    Advocates Abortion under circumstances where adoption is possible. (We killed 50 million infants from abortion here in the United States. Thats more people we murdered than those that died under Stalin.)
    He is in favor of more bailouts.

    These are hardly things that will help the country finacially or morally.

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:14 a.m.

    I just can't believe people still fall for the whole 'cult' thing about the Mormon church. There are 13 million members around the world and the actual name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Cults, by contrast have small numbers and are usually very local. Cults don't do humanitarian works either.

    I just have a hard time with a 'Christian' who is the leader of a 10,000 person 'Mega-Church' saying Mormons don't believe Christ died for their sins. Mormons DO agree with the apostle James, "Faith, without works, is dead." That belief is a biblical based belief, not some edict issue by emperor Constantine in the Nicean creed.

    To this pastor, I would refer him to Isaiah 5:20.

  • Richie Saint George, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:13 a.m.

    Nice time to read Elder's Ballard and Oaks talks from last weeks General Conference. They answered this poor fellows blather.

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:04 a.m.

    Andermart | 9:50 a.m. Oct. 8, 2011
    Pullman, WA
    "You can't hardly give this vibrant, growing Christian faith a serious and sincere look or prayerfully investigate their claims with a sincere heart without coming to the realization that there is something to it that resounds with their inner soul.
    I feel sad for Mr. Jeffries. May he too investigate Mormonism with real intent so he too can see how Christ is at the center of it. "

    Well spoken. Thank you!

  • BobP Port Alice, B.C.
    Oct. 8, 2011 10:01 a.m.

    If Romney can get the GOP nomination he can carry the south in the election. They will vote Romney because the alternative of Obama is so much worse.

    It seems to me that Evangelicals are "Paulians" while the LDS are Christians.

  • brokenclay Scottsdale, AZ
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:57 a.m.

    It seems like we have a classic case of wanting to keep your cake and eat it, too. Are the LDS the one and only true church, or are they indeed Christians just like the rest of "apostate" Christianity? Pick one or the other and stick with it. But don't whine when Christians won't affiliate with you due to your self-proclaimed doctrines.

    Mormons crave the acceptance and affirmation of "apostates" and the world, while genuine Christians expect and accept marginalization and persecution. As the Lord said, "If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:18-20). My brothers are martyred by the thousands each year around the world. How many LDS are martyred each year for their faith?

    Muslims are more "Christian" than Mormons are. Yet they do not clamor to be identified with us. Trinitarianism and Creatio Ex Nihilo are mutually exclusive with the LDS polytheism and eternal matter. The differences are too great and the consequences are eternal. We choose to guard the purity of the Gospel rather than to prioritize politics over religion.

    Those who abandon monotheism have forfeited any claim to true religion (Deut 4:35; Isaiah 45:5).

  • reenie72 Sierra Vista, AZ
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:56 a.m.

    Sometimes I wonder why we pay any attention to these "knot heads." All of them have a different reason to say the church isn't the Lord's church, yet among their groups they can't even agree one with another on what they believe, if they could there would only be one church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church on the earth. We believe this to be true.

  • Andermart Pullman, WA
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:50 a.m.

    Now wait just a minute.

    This is a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. People fear "Cults" because they blind peoples minds against truth. Cults throw up a smokescreen to keep their adherants from leaving their confines. Well congratulations Mr Jeffries, you fully qualify.

    When pastors unsheathe their "cult" card, they are worried. It's as if that is the only thing they have left in their arsenal of weapons against their foe; in this case the "Mormons". But it doesn't really work. Mr. Jeffries doesn't make the Mormons more evil, he only makes them appear to be more evil to his own flock. It is exactly a smoke screen thrown up to keep his own adherents from investigating, and then eventually joining the Mormons, which too many are doing.

    You can't hardly give this vibrant, growing Christian faith a serious and sincere look or prayerfully investigate their claims with a sincere heart without coming to the realization that there is something to it that resounds with their inner soul.

    I feel sad for Mr. Jeffries. May he too investigate Mormonism with real intent so he too can see how Christ is at the center of it.

  • FDRfan safety dictates, ID
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:46 a.m.

    This will do much good for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And it may also help the Democratic Party - if it will veer back to the right and reclaim Christian values. Such values are obviously distorted by the bigots who make up a large element of the Republican Party. How can anyone pretending to know something of the teachings of Jesus claim that Mormons are good moral people but who belong to a cult? Can you gather grapes from thistles?

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:32 a.m.

    Vanka | 2:46 a.m. Oct. 8, 2011
    Provo, UT
    "Any true Christian knows there are NO laws and ordinances of the gospel."

    Who are you to tell Him, that someone is not Christian?

    Salvation is free, but the outward reflection of "works" is required as James has stated. Jesus also taught that faith required works, and works requires faith. Paul's discussion was with a population that needed to learn about the inner conversion. James was the more senior apostle and was holistically (whole body) teaching the whole church, that they had works to perform.

    James 2:26
    "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

    Matthew 7:21-23
    21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven..."(shortonwords)

    For every verse you quote to support your view, I have just as many that say otherwise. I respect your view, have shared the risks in protecting all of our rights, and will continue to do so.

    All I ask is that you don't make an unrighteous judgment. Leave it to Him.

  • Kirk R Graves West Jordan, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:23 a.m.

    @donn - so we are to understand by your statement that it isn't so much that Mormons are not Christians, as much as to say that Mormons don't meet the definition that YOU have of what a Christian is. Since your definition is based on doctrines determined by man (the Catholic Church) over 1500 years ago, I am OK with that.

  • byu rugby Crystal Lake, IL
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:16 a.m.

    A preacher who doesn't follow the Golden Rule isn't much of a preacher. it is interesting that this guy is the opposite side of the same coin as Reverend Wright, the President's religious leader. Huh? hatred on both sides of the isle? go figure.

    Oct. 8, 2011 9:16 a.m.

    I think an LDS church member should hand deliver a copy of the Book Of Mormon to Pastor Jeffress. So that the next time he decides to declare the LDS church a cult, he'll have some scriptures to backup his remarks.

  • VocalLocal Salt Lake, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:09 a.m.

    I don't really hold Rick Perry responsible for the words of every person, prominent or not, that happens to support him.

    To Christians who think of Mormonism as a cult-the strangest thing that Mormons believe is that 2000 years ago a guy was born to a virgin who eventually died on a cross that in some cosmic way atoned for the sins of mankind. Viewed from an outsiders point of view anyone's religion is ridiculous and absurd. So whatever criticism you have of Mormonism can just as easily be applied to what you believe.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:07 a.m.

    We should refuse to let religion be a part of the discussion at all. Since we won't, this is where we're going to end up every time, slinging mud at one another. Religion doesn't have to bring any proof or verifiability to the table at all. That's why it divides us so effectively.

  • Eugene2 MONTPELIER, ID
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:02 a.m.

    Any person professing to be Christian that takes Jeffress' view has checked his Christian card at the door. What religious affiliation has the right to determine who is Christian and who is not. Jeffress exhibits the most un-Christian view that smacks of outright bigotry. Being Christian is a personal choice not left to be defined by someone else.

  • Earl Sandy, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 9:02 a.m.

    Mitt unquestionably belongs to a cult, but it's not Mormonism. He's a true believer of two cults, actually: neoconservatism and Keynesianism. In my book, that makes him a believer in magic. Magic is what happens when your actions produce impossible results, and it's always an illusion.

    Oct. 8, 2011 8:55 a.m.

    I find it rather inspiring that we live in a nation that allows free speech so readily. Would you rather have Syrian-style oppression of those taking to the streets to exercise their first amendment rights? Batons and rubber bullets so you can have an easier time getting home once in a while?

    Oct. 8, 2011 8:48 a.m.

    If someone would be good enough to show in the Bible where it says, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man" like Joseph Smith claimed, or that, Satan "is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ" like Joseph F. Merrill argued in General Conference, or that "As a Spirit personage the Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not fill the immensity of space, and cannot be everywhere present in person at the same time," like Joseph Fielding Smith taught, then I'll gladly reconsider whether or not Mormonism is a Christian entity.

    Until then, the Mormons do not provide anyone with an objective reason why Mormonism should be considered anything other than a caricature of Christianity. And to be griping and complaining when that conclusion is reached, when all the Mormons would have to do is provide those references, is simply more indicative of non-Christian behavior (see 1 Pet. 3:15 cf. Acts 17:11). So, do I have any takers or will the response be met with the usual whining and griping?

  • scotchipman Lehi, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 8:34 a.m.

    The Mormon church does as many if not more Christian acts of service than any other religion and teaches great values to its members. To label the Mormon church as a cult (practices beliefs or practices that are considered abnormal or bizarre) sounds harsh for a religion that does so much good but there is some truth to it. The real problem with the church that lends to the "Cult" tag is its foundation and early teachings and what they are based on. All Mormons would be wise to read everything on Mormonthink dot com to learn the true history of their church that many don't know about.

  • D'Anconia Providence, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 8:18 a.m.

    And BYU fans are scratching their heads wondering how TCU was invited to join the Big-12 ahead of themselves.

  • Varnka Salt Lake City, utah
    Oct. 8, 2011 8:08 a.m.

    Vanka finally a comment that shows you really do not understand LDS doctrine
    with your above comment as well as you believe you do
    All LDS know and believe they cannot earn their salvation by their own merit
    the Saviour and the atonement are essential

  • calaf63 Branson, MO
    Oct. 8, 2011 8:03 a.m.

    It's all motivated by FEAR. When backed into a corner, when a feeling of desperation occurs, then the natural, human tendency is to strike out in one form or another. This is a clear example of the fear that many, especially in the Evangelical South, have for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons are a threat to their livelihood, and also in this case, to their chosen one, Rick Perry, so they begin the old standard that Mormonism is a cult and begin to spread around the lies and half-truths in an attempt to protect whatever it is they fear losing. The reference to "Mormons are to Protestants, are what Protestants were to Catholics at the time of the reformation is right on. The Catholic Church saw that movement as a threat to their power and influence, and ultimately income, so it and it's leaders and followers were actively condemned and called heretical, etc. I see the same fear in the Evangelicals, that is why they are in "attack mode". Truth will always prevail, and though Mitt might not win, the voice of the people will give them exactly what they deserve.

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:29 a.m.

    Here are some fundamental differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity that I see:

    1. Mormons believe that Jesus Christ came back to earth a second time and preached the gospel to a group of ancient Americans that the vast majority of knowledgable people in archeology do not think even existed.

    2. The way the Book of Mormon came into existence, was translated by a poorly educated man via golden tablets and then these golden tablets disappear never to be seen again. All of it unprovable and requiring the gift of faith it one is to believe.

    3. The early revelations of Joseph Smith that pronounce focus on the corporeality of God and the belief that God, the Father himself was once a human being and evolved into the divine; the pre-existance of souls. Or the belief that any of us can if we are good enough do the same thing and ultimately create our own universes. Such beliefs like this totally reject that Bible's creation story.

    4. The role America plays in the second coming and the several levels of heaven that one can attain.


  • baddog Cedar Rapids, IA
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:29 a.m.

    That dog don't hunt anymore.

  • Wash DC Reader Reston, VA
    Oct. 8, 2011 7:10 a.m.

    Brilliant move by the Utah Demos. If the main stream Republican party does not want Mormons, then they should go where they are wanted and views considered. Lets now see if this can translate into a better showing for Utah Demos this voting season. I know I won't be voting for a Republican for any state-wide offices this year... but will consider national offices.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:53 a.m.

    "but those who want to understand the centrality of Christ to our faith can learn more about us and what we believe by going to mormon.org."

    I have looked at that site.

    It is a sanitized version of what you want people to see.

    It is the "milk" and no "meat".

    I do understand why it is that way, but please, don't pass it off as the definitive place for all LDS information and then get mad when people ask the NON-LDS what your REALLY believe.

  • GoldieZ Eureka, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:25 a.m.

    This misinformed preacher did the LDS church a favor. Those who are sincere will find out for themselves that the LDS church is the most Christian church on the face of the earth.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:12 a.m.

    This is politics. Politicians will say and do virtually anything to get them elected. R and D alike.

    It was just a matter of time before Romney was attacked for his religion. And there was never any doubt that it would be from fellow GOP.

    I see the LDS like the kid who wants to join a club. They let you in (to the GOP) because you bring candy (votes). They don't really like you, they laugh at you and they make fun of you.

    But, you are NOT one of them and you never will be. They will NEVER truly accept you.

    They know that no matter what they do or say, you will still be there, eagerly handing over your votes and taking the abuse.

    All the while, thinking that you are one of them. And they continue to snicker.

  • nephite Pikesville, MD
    Oct. 8, 2011 6:00 a.m.

    look how much obama has spent bush does not come close and check real facts not what your democrat friends tell you and obama has broken laws and refuses to protect america from illegal aliens and mitt is christian

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 4:32 a.m.

    As an active Latter-day Saint I have four words in reference to this article.

    "Could not care less."

  • JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt Beverly Hills, CA
    Oct. 8, 2011 3:21 a.m.

    I meant to end in my last statement with "This is what the Savior Warned of". He warned of hypocrites. He warned of the rich oppressing the poor and leaving them for dead.

    I left the Republican party because it has been taken over by people like this man who spreads hate and bigotry in the name of Christ. It is wrong and it sickens me. Keep voting Republican everyone and keep supporting this kind of leadership, I choose not to.

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 2:46 a.m.

    Mormons 3rd Article of Faith states: We believe that through the atonement of Christ all mankind MAY be saved BY OBEDIENCE TO THE LAWS AND ORDINANCES OF THE GOSPEL.

    Any true Christian knows there are NO laws and ordinances of the gospel. The gospel is simply the good news that Jesus paid for sin and rose from the dead. Period. If salvation comes by obedience, then it is earned, not given as a free gift by Jesus Christ. Mormons believe they can earn their salvation, making them their own saviors, not Jesus Christ as their savior. And if laws and ordinances can provide salvation, then everything Paul wrote is false, according to Mormons. Paul repeatedly wrote that there is no salvation by the law (Torah). Indeed, as Galatians 3:17 clearly states, the promise of salvation to Abraham had nothing to do with the law, especially since the law did not come until over 400 years after the promise of salvation was given to Abraham. This fact Jesus knew full well, as did Paul. There is no salvation in laws and ordinances as the Mormons assert.

  • WhatsInItForMe Orem, Utah
    Oct. 8, 2011 1:15 a.m.

    When you go around "stealing" parishoners from a pastor, you can bet he'll do everything he can to put your church down.

    So, it's not unexpected to see ministers of various churches in America bad-mouthing the LDS faith.

    This religious issue will certainly be a hurdle for Romney to overcome to get the Republican nomination, let alone beat Obama, as bad as Obama's popularity is.

    BYU wanted independence to put the church out there more via football and other sports. This coming election might do that in a bigger way, whether for the best or worst remains to be seen.

  • Mr. Bean Edmonton, Canada
    Oct. 8, 2011 12:25 a.m.


    "I'm sorry, did you miss the part where Bush spent 6 Trillion dollars?"

    Yes, but it took Dubya 8 years. Obama did $4 trillion in just over two. Which puts him on track to do $16 trillion in 8 years... If he makes 8 years.



    "Catholics are also considered part of that 'non-Christian' group by most Southern Baptists that I have known."

    Perhaps Rick Perry's backers and other Southern Baptists meant to say that Mormons aren't Protestants.

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 12:21 a.m.

    Perry disavowed the statements of an individual that insults Mormons? Perry isn't smart enough to ask someone that wont offend 5 million voters that tend to vote with his party.

    I really liking Romney and Cain, but I don't think either are electable as republicans. There are too many radical idiots in the South that will not vote for a Mormon nor an African-American. While I was growing up, I went to a Southern-Baptist school in the south-east and was told weekly that Mormonism is a cult, and all Mormons (including me) were going to (bad place).

    Southern Baptists rule the south-eastern United States, and they have no issues with preaching from the pulpits. Historically, the churches were used both to preach for segregation as well as for racial equality. Religion and politics are inseparable in the South. At the same time, a church may support a Republican in one race and a Democrat in another, simply for religious reasons.

    If a candidate doesnt pass the religious test, a significant minority of the voters will not vote for a candidate. The candidates political view comes in second.

  • wrz Edmonton, Canada
    Oct. 8, 2011 12:07 a.m.

    @AZ Blue & Red:

    "I have yet to find any horns on my head. Maybe that goes with the Cult thing."

    Look under the hood of your vehicle. That's where you'll find the horns.

  • Anthracite Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 8, 2011 12:05 a.m.

    Ben McAdams, you rule on so many levels.

  • BH Tremonton, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 11:34 p.m.

    Donn in Layton said:
    "Baptists churches have Biblical statements of faith, but They would all agree that Mormonism is outside the PALE of Christianity, as are Jehovahs Witnesses and Christian Scientists."

    You forgot Catholics. Catholics are also considered part of that "non-Christian" group by most Southern Baptists that I have known. Interesting, isn't it?

    Sad state of affairs when those who profess to bring God's children to Christ demonstrate such strong errant judgement. I guess we all make our mistakes.

  • Rocket Science Brigham City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 11:25 p.m.

    So what does Mitt Romney's Mormon Faith believe? If people want to know don't listen to the bigotry of campaign introductions. Look it up: Mitt belongs to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints commonly reffered to as Mormons. Hmmm? The Church of Jesus Christ? Seems like they would believe in the things Jesus Christ taught doesn't it?

    1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

    2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adams transgression.

    3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

  • JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt Beverly Hills, CA
    Oct. 7, 2011 11:20 p.m.

    "snowman | 10:44 p.m. Oct. 7, 2011
    Provo, UT
    Anti Bush-Obama: Obama put this country in deep financially trouble. Romney could bring us out of that hole."

    I'm sorry, did you miss the part where Bush spent 6 Trillion dollars?

    Also, I guarantee you that this level of anti LDS bigotry will not come from the people who support Obama. The Christian right wing Republican Party is a close minded party that loves to support White Christians no matter how terrible their policies are. Perry gets support because of this but he already has shown that under him, taxes and spending are up. He had no problem using that 17 Billion in Federal stimulus.

    Open your eyes fellow LDS and see what the Republican party has become, a group based on promoting the ultra rich, the people that look only like you and worship only like you. They love the ultra rich and disparage the poor. This is what the Savior earned of.

  • MormonDem Provo, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 11:18 p.m.

    Pssst. Mormons: guess what, the right wing doesn't really like you. They keep you around for your money and your votes, but they'll never consider you "one of them."

  • Rocket Science Brigham City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 11:14 p.m.

    In 2008 Mike Huckabee's bigoted campaign sunk Romney's chances. He preferred to have John McCain as the candidate if he couldn't have it himself. Huckabee threw his delegates in West Virginia to McCain when it was apparent Romney would win there. Romney's campaign soon folded. As a result the Republicans ended up with McCain, a candidate who in the summer of 2008 stated "economics is not my strong suit." At the convention in August, instead of choosing Romney as VP running mate, a strong economic draw for votes, McCain Chose Palin. In September we had the Wall Street melt down. We elected an unexperienced, unprepared person who promised change because the Republicans had one of the weakest tickets ever who minimized economics and advertised it wasn't their strong suit.

    Now we have religious bigotry again raising it's ugly head. Rick Perry needs to take responsibility for his supporters and campaign, to denounce it totally, let people know of Mitt Romney's commitment to his Cristian Religion and apologize publicly and profusely. Failure to do so and stay away from the religious bigotry will doom the Republicans in 2012.

  • snowman Provo, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 10:44 p.m.

    Anti Bush-Obama: Obama put this country in deep financially trouble. Romney could bring us out of that hole.

  • Gandalf Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 10:43 p.m.

    DN Subscriber, you don't need to worry about Obama or the Dems sinking a knife into Romney based on his religious affiliation. Trust me, your virtuous, "Christian" Republican colleagues will take care of putting knives into Romney based on being LDS long before, and with greater vigor, than the Dems ever will.

  • JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt Beverly Hills, CA
    Oct. 7, 2011 10:40 p.m.

    I would advise any naive people who think the LDS Church and Mitt Romney are in a new era of acceptance readjust their view. I know this because people don't assume I am Mormon and in the South they give me their opinions quite honestly.

    Mitt will get sunk in the South again, religious bigotry is alive and well and vastly represented in the Republican party.

  • snowman Provo, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 10:37 p.m.

    Why does religion matter? I don't vote for a persons religion when I vote, I vote for the kind of person he is.

  • DN Subscriber Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 9:55 p.m.

    If Romney gets the nomination, the attacks will only get worse, and of course be from sources not visibly connected to the Obama campaign. They will echo and magnify every criticism ever made of any Mormon. And blame others for it.

    I wonder why they never had anything bad to say about Harry Reid, about whom much bad could be said, regardless of his religion?

  • Wastintime Los Angeles, CA
    Oct. 7, 2011 9:53 p.m.

    Very familiar with the "cult" label. While living in the east, I was shocked to find out my nice Methodist neighbor was teaching her son, one of my son's best friends, that our church is a cult. Mind you, I/we had never tried to influence her son or discuss religion. Though I wanted to "put her in her place," I turned the other cheek and let it go.

    The LDS church is somewhat unique with it's dogged proselytizing and effort to convert people from other denominations. I can imagine we LDS might look differently if the same effort was on display by other churches. (Jehovah Witnesses are the only ones that have come to my door.) I can imagine if I my livelihood depended on having a congregation, I wouldn't care for Mormons too much either.

    Life goes on....

  • KTC John Wetumpka, AL
    Oct. 7, 2011 9:44 p.m.

    Let's see if I understand this right, John Edwards runs for president, cheats on his sick wife, and none of his fellow protestants say he is not a Christian. President Bill Clinton, a Baptist, plays sex games in the oval office with a young staffer, and none of his fellow protestants say he is not a Christian. Governor Swarznegger of California fathers a child out of wedlock, and no religious leader publicly says he is not a Christian. But many protestant leaders go out of their way to attack and denounce a good member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day as a non-Christian. I am tempted to say that the good reverend is not being a Christian when he says that Romney is not being a Christian, but I cannot do such for I would be engaging in not being a Christian. I predict that Mitt will turn the other cheek.

  • BostonTerry Merrimack, NH
    Oct. 7, 2011 9:44 p.m.

    The belief's of Senior Paster, Dr. Robert Jeffress, are posted on his Church's website. The doctrine of baptism is identical to that of the LDS. Since baptism is a uniquely Christian practice how can believers who practice Baptism be labeled as Non-Christian?

    Here from the the BYLAWS of FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH of Dallas, Texas is Article of Faith #7:

    VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper
    Christian Baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Savior, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. ... Being a church ordinance, it is a prerequisite to the priviledges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

    The LDS 4th Article of Faith:
    We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    LDS require baptism before taking the sacrament.

  • gramma b Orem, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 9:38 p.m.

    I was amused by the pitch from the Democrats who are hoping that the evangelical bigotry in the Republican party will drive Mormons to the Democrat party. Good luck with that. The Democrats will hate us because we don't support gay marriage and abortion.

  • eagle651 Chino Valley, AZ
    Oct. 7, 2011 9:27 p.m.

    Mormons need to remember that the mainline Churches determine who is Christian or not.
    Not by one's faith in Christ or the personal relationship of Him through the Holy Spirit.
    These church member's shameful remarks and the Bible don't seem to go together. Their views are made by man and not the God I know.
    There is no Holy Spirit here. I feel sad for their members.

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 9:06 p.m.

    The good pastor is running a business and the Mormon 'cult' is competition. It's as plain and simple as that. Honest people can have honest disagreements about doctrine, but people like this don't deal in the light of day.

    I did find it quite hilarious that the Utah Democrats are so welcoming and open-minded toward Mormons. I wonder how open and welcoming their California counter-parts would be towards Mormons after the Prop 8 battle.

    There is a reason the church doesn't endorse political parties or candidates. They don't put their trust in 'the arm of flesh.' Both parties are concerned with one thing. It's not being tolerant. It's not being diverse. It's not solving problems and letting people govern themselves. It's about power.

  • Open Mind Taylorsville, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 8:54 p.m.


    You're putting members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in the same group as Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists? You're forgetting a key difference between these groups and Latter Day Saints.

    LDS believe Jesus Christ it the absolute Savior of the world. Without hesitation believe in the King James version of the Bible. (It validifies the Book of Mormon.) "Out of the mouth of 2-3 witnesses EVERY word shall be established."

    LDS are as Christian as Mary Magdalene, Paul, Peter, or any one of the disciples in the Bible.

  • American man WOODS CROSS, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 8:44 p.m.


    Does the comment "Ho hum" have any religious or political value? If not, why are you on this board.

  • American man WOODS CROSS, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 8:27 p.m.

    Just Thinking Outloud, 5:43 PM, Merrimack, NH:

    "WRONG" Protestanism is a process of breaking away from the Catholic Church and starting their own Church with out the Devine authority required.

    Mormonism is the Restored Church of Jesus Christ, by Devine Angels sent from Heaven. See Isaiah 2: 2, and Micah 4: 2, Acts 1: 6 and Revelation 14: 6. If you put forth a little effort you will find many places in the New Testament about the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

  • hermounts Pleasanton, CA
    Oct. 7, 2011 8:15 p.m.

    I'm not sure whom I'm more disgusted with, the minister who thinks he has the right to label Latter-day Saints as a cult, or the Utah Democrat Party chairman and the others, who took advantqge of the minister's attacks to try to convince LDS people that they should support their party.

  • Max Charlotte, NC
    Oct. 7, 2011 7:35 p.m.

    I am always amused by these people. At best it is immature (really, name calling?) and at best it is so deceptive. For some reason some believe that ONLY Evangelicals can be Christians. Mormons are not Evangelicals nor are they Protestants, but they are most certainly Christians. Those who keep up the name calling should be ashamed of themselves. Certainly they know better.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Oct. 7, 2011 7:27 p.m.

    Well, I'm Mormon and I think Romney is absolutley full of it. Perry is the same. Romney is too much like Obama if you get past your favoritism and look at his actions.

  • Forrest Natchitoches, LA
    Oct. 7, 2011 7:07 p.m.

    It is said that Louisiana's Gov. Blanco called Salt Lake for assistance from the Mormons before she placed a call to the governor of the large, nearby State of Texas for help, immediately following the devastation of Hurricane Katrina. That tells me Mormons are known to be Christians, despite the rhetoric of this preacher.

  • Californian#1@94131 San Francisco, CA
    Oct. 7, 2011 6:38 p.m.

    Ho hum.

  • Tyler Ray Taylorsville, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 6:32 p.m.

    Did everyone watch that video? UNREAL! He says Mormons don't believe Christ died for their sins and believe in him only as a historical figure. I'd love to read this guy Alma 7, Alma 36 Mosiah 3, 5 and countless other chapters in the Book of Mormon without telling where it came from. He might be suprised.

  • donn layton, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 6:30 p.m.

    JM said, I couldn't vote for a person who is bigoted.

    Mormons often misunderstand the truth for bigotry.

    The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches are creedal. The Anglican/ Episcopal Church. These churches accept the historic Christian Creeds as binding definitions of Christian doctrines. Although the Anglicans have 39 Articles of Faith, these Articles are not strictly binding on Anglicans as a test of orthodox Anglican belief. Lutherans, Presbyterians, some Reformed Churches are creedal and confessional: they have denominational confessions (the Augsburg Confession, the Westminster Confession).

    Baptists churches have Biblical statements of faith, but They would all agree that Mormonism is outside the PALE of Christianity, as are Jehovahs Witnesses and Christian Scientists.

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    Oct. 7, 2011 6:01 p.m.

    Rick Perry:

    The only thing Mormons do is:
    1 - feed and clothe the poor and needy on a daily basis numbering tens of thousands, regardless of religious belief,
    2 - deliver thousands of tons of medicine and medical supplies each year to areas devastated by natural disaster, regardless of religious belief,
    3 - organize annual volunteer work forces by the hundreds in local communities all around the country to perform meaningful service, regardless of religious belief,
    4 - assist millions in becoming self-reliant and learn the meaning of accountability,
    5 - maintain a perpetual education fund to provide tuition costs to the underprivileged in countries around the world,
    6 - uphold the constitution and serve in the military to protect freedom,
    7 - allow all men and women everywhere to worship how, where, or what they may,

    let's see, did I leave anything out??

    What "christian" acts have you performed today?

  • On the other hand Spanish Fork, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 6:00 p.m.

    It's not hard to find bigots, but do we really need to go looking?

  • KM Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 5:50 p.m.

    First it was reverend wright and his anti-american rants. Now its this fool and his bigotry shining like the sun. We should have judged the current president by his close associates and we should do the same with any canditate, including Perry.

  • Just Thinking Outloud.. Merrimack, NH
    Oct. 7, 2011 5:43 p.m.

    Mormonism is to Protestanism
    what Protestanism was to Catholisim, during the reformation.

  • The Politics of Listening A Tropical Paradise USA, FL
    Oct. 7, 2011 5:30 p.m.

    This is a clear cut case of, "if the shoe fits Mitt Romney, wear it" battle.

    First I'll quote a bit of this story. ""The governor does not believe Mormonism is a cult." "The comments Jeffress made Friday are nearly identical to things he said about Romney and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 2007-08. Last year Media Matters revisited the prior anti-Mormon statements Jeffress made while also noting the pastor's "long history of inflammatory attacks on gays, Muslims, Mormons and Hindus." "Jeffress described Romney's Mormon faith as a 'cult,' and said evangelicals had only one real option in the 2012 primaries. Asked by Politico if he believed Romney is a Christian, Jeffress answered: 'No'." "END QUOTE".

    On National TV, FOX, ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN, we'll settle this live for all to see, about Mitt Romney, with a "LIVE" Q&A Polygraph screening" (we know it is completely without any theoretical foundation and has absolutely no validity, just like Mitt Romney), and get down to the real truth's about him, before he goes another inch forward, in this contest, of "whoever can lie the best, gets into The White House."

    My views.

  • JWB Kaysville, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 5:22 p.m.

    It reminds me of Huckabee in 2008. It is a little different and Jeffress is not the candidate but same type of rhetoric. Mr. Romney is most likely prepared to fend off this type of attack. The problem with Mr. Jeffress is that he is not just addressing Mr. Romney but the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints and it's members. It appears from this type of attack that Mr. Jeffress is not very Christian-like himself.

  • AZ Blue & Red Gilbert, AZ
    Oct. 7, 2011 5:21 p.m.

    On my mission (many years ago in a similar area of the country) I was asked several times where my horns were. Their preacher told them that Mormons had horns. (no lie)

    I have yet to find any horns on my head. Maybe that goes with the Cult thing.

    Another "Christian" minister told all that we were Angels from the Devil. Let's see 2 guys with a message about Christ that do not drink, smoke, chase women, and are pretty clean cut are Angels from the Devil? Well I would hate to meet a real one. Would like to thank those "Christian" leaders for their help. The local Mormon Cult Branches and Wards had some new members that year.

    As for this guy. Reminds me of a Shania Twain Song. So your a preacher? That don't impressa me much.

    From an AZ cult member.

  • Leo Femedlers El Paso, TX
    Oct. 7, 2011 5:02 p.m.

    Re: libertarian
    "All religions are "cults" until they gain public acceptance"

    Good luck with that.

  • SpanishImmersed Mesa, AZ
    Oct. 7, 2011 4:47 p.m.

    FBC in Big D is hurting in the plate just like everyone else's pocketbook. This is a great opportunity to defend their perspective and perhaps yield increased donations.

  • libertarian Cedar City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 4:33 p.m.

    All religions are "cults" until they gain public acceptance.

  • TRUTH Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 4:23 p.m.

    Rev Wright all over again......nice job Perry......watch you tank in the polls!

  • defibman Syracuse, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 4:20 p.m.

    It makes one wonder about Rick Perry and his associates. Did he really think that after the comments by this guy a couple of years ago that when "his man" fell behind he would not say something stupid? It make me think that maybe he knew about how this "minister" really feels and allowed him to say things in hopes of stirring the pot and then just say that he doesn't agree with it.

    Sorry, but at this point I really wouldn't put it past Rick Perry or some others. I think it will back fire on them.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 4:10 p.m.

    Perry is a falling star - the debates have exposed him and shown him to be uninformed and not ready for prime time .... oh and throw in his insane immigration policy in Texas too boot. We need the BEST to face Obama and not another John McCain.

  • ute alumni Tengoku, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 4:06 p.m.

    like o, ricky keeps good company. judge people by the company they keep.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 4:06 p.m.

    no surprise here. Mitt as president is a direct threat to these big Baptist "tv preachers" who are about as authentic as professional wrestlers. These characters see Romney as president and they see people taking a good hard look at the LDS church too which scares the pants off of them. Bottom line - this is all about money for most of these tv preachers and Mitt is a threat to their bottom line $$$.

  • JM Lehi, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 4:01 p.m.

    When I listened to Perry the first thought that struck me, when he enlightened us about his distaste for Mitt, was that I couldn't vote for a person who is bigoted, even if it meant voting left.
    I wondered if he had anything to do with the anti-Mormon programs on Texas TV and News. One thing our Country needs is less bigotry. Many Christians understand that memebers of the Church of Jesus Christ are Christian, although we may believe in a slightly different Jesus. (LDS believe in the Biblical Jesus and not the Jesus of the Alexandrian and Nicene philosophers). Others still hold ideas that are taught to them by misinformed persons who wish to blind and stir hatred. Someone running for president has an obligation to investigate before speaking against other Christians. Mitt's religion is one that insists that Jesus is teh Christ, that the constitution is inspired, that all desreve the freedom to worship how or what they may (even if they worship nothing, as many Americans do). During the last LDS conferece there were no rants about Damning America or anything like that.

    America will vote for many minorities, but maybe not Mormons.

  • Kouger Lehi, UT
    Oct. 7, 2011 3:43 p.m.

    We all saw this coming - slow but surely! It's here. These so-called "christians" were waiting and holding onto their "Mormon pitchforks" thinking that Perry would certainly win. Now that Perry is slipping and fading, these "christians", in desperation, are resorting to what they see as their most effective weapon - Mormonism!.... Sad!