Twin Lights: "The difference between the couples you describe is in the
word courting. It implies preparation for marriage and a sexual relationship
therein."But affectionate behaviors go beyond courtship and
marriage. They are part of general socialization and relationship building.
They are not exclusively for marriage preparation. Did you marry (or even
intend or hope to marry) every person you ever hugged or kissed? Of course not.
Let's look beyond affectionate behaviors. I would wager that a gay youth
exhibiting behaviors that were not the least bit homosexual, but merely
gender-nonconforming (like a boy wearing a skirt), would be roundly teased or
ostracized in most wards. It seems cruel to dangle the apple of acceptance in
front of gay youth, but then to deny them even the tiniest amount of
self-expression. Especially when the straight kids are necking in the parking
lot.There is a glimmer of hope in Dr. Mason's statement,
"Perhaps they aren't athletic, or they are interested in different things
than the other boys in the deacon's quorum" and his message of inclusion.
Maybe there will be more tolerance for variety, but I think there is still a
long way to go.
Pagen,It is not semantics. You may be an addict or have any other
strong tendency. But you can still resist.The "bottom
line" for any and all church members is to not give in to their own
personal temptations.No. One persons resistance does not change the
rest of the population. Why would it?The church does not claim to
be impartial on this topic.I think that guilt is one of the points
of Elder Jensen's remarks - to frame the struggle as a valiant one that shows
the spiritual worth of those so engaged.No one should feel that
suicide is a viable option. Ever.Lagomorph,The
distinction between thought and action is not insincere. The same line exists
for all sin. No one is condemned for being tempted (or we would all have to
give up). Sin is when we give in. Not to say that controlling the thought
process is unimportant. But it takes more time.The difference
between the couples you describe is in the word courting. It implies
preparation for marriage and a sexual relationship therein. Because these are
not acceptable within church doctrine, the courtship rituals leading to them are
Twin Lights: "Heterosexual couples are afforded more leniency regarding
courtship rituals for the simple reason the church encourages heterosexual
marriage, does not recognize same-sex marriage and believes homosexual acts to
be sinful. Knowing this (as most here do) to criticize the differential
treatment seems intentionally obtuse."If the church does not
recognize same-sex marriage and believes homosexual acts to be sinful, then its
modest accommodation of homosexuality (i.e. making a distinction between thought
and action, as Dr. Mason did) is insincere. There is a clear double standard if
homosexuals are told it is OK to "be" gay as long as you are chaste
(in the same way that it tells straights that it is OK to "be"
straight outside of marriage, as long as you are chaste), but then allows
straight couples a wider latitude of chaste behaviors to be enjoyed before
marriage. If holding hands in public is acceptable, chaste behavior for
courting straights, then it must equally be allowed and accepted for gay
couples. Otherwise, it is meaningless and disingenuous to say that only
unchaste acts by gays is the issue. It is not being obtuse to point this out.
the truth,You wrote:"When you stop feeding the
fire, the fire can die down."This is less true of natural
physiological processes (such as sexuality) and more true of phenomena like
"testimonies".If you expect others to "stop feeding
the fire" as regards bodily processes, are you willing to "stop
feeding the fire" as regards ideological delusions?
Hey lookiethere... An article referring to homosexuality and
Pagan/en's multiple personalities show up with their copy/paste buttons.First - I'd take your posts more seriously if you weren't blatantly
disengenous in your skirting the rules of the board. It's not the 1990s - the
internet community takes its conventions and etiquette seriously (i.e. making
fun of spelling or grammar errors will get you mocked off a board as a troll).
Please show everyone here the same respect they show you when they limit their
responses.Secondly - We get it. You are gay... or a family member is
gay... or you really like gay people and you are offended beyond belief by those
who view the world differently. By naming yourself Pagan and its many
permutations you don't believe in God - perhaps you worship trees, dance around
tall poles or call the earth mother with a capital M as did my Pictish
ancestors. Or, maybe you worship nothing.Whatever. We're bored
now.As snidely condescending as Vanka is (one must wonder what
stories she *does* believe), at least she is original.
echo,Numerous LDS leaders have admitted they don't understand the
Atonement. Do you claim to understand it?Why, then would you expect
Pagan to understand it, much less care a fig about it, seeing as Pagan does not
believe in your religious stories.Is there some hidden logic in your
comment? Please reveal it.
Pagan you don't understand the atonement very well if you believe that it is
only for sin. People can need healing from many of life's wounds beyond
deliberately choosing to sin.
People CAN choose not to act or behave homosexually. When you stop
feeding the fire, the fire can die down.
The issue presented is not about changing orientation but rather the power to
resist. There are folks with many kinds of extremely strong tendencies - some
that seem truly overwhelming. The atonement can help to overcome all of
these.Mayfair is correct. There are lots of folks (married and
unmarried) who are required to be celibate for a variety of reasons.
Homosexuals may represent a large number of these, but they are far and away not
the only ones.As a religious institution, the church does not
condone homosexual behavior. Even legalized same-sex marriage in all 50 states
would not change that. The same could be said of many other
churches/religions.Heterosexual couples are afforded more leniency
regarding courtship rituals for the simple reason the church encourages
heterosexual marriage, does not recognize same-sex marriage and believes
homosexual acts to be sinful. Knowing this (as most here do) to criticize the
differential treatment seems intentionally obtuse.Those who struggle
with homosexuality deserve all of our love and all of our support. They also
deserve clarity reference to what (we believe) is eternal doctrine. Finally,
they deserve to know that all who overcome will be blessed for their struggle.
Dr. Mason: "We don't kick them out... But they feel as if they have been
kicked out... The church distinguishes between feelings or inclinations on the
one hand and behavior on the other..."Lessee... make them feel
awful, call them sinners, exclude them from interactions. Engaging in social
ostracism to the point where they drop out is not "technically"
kicking them out, but the effect is the same.As to
"behavior," straight couples are afforded more leniency than gay ones.
Straight youth can hold hands in public, hug, maybe even kiss without
disapproval; they can engage in many forms of courtship behavior well shy of
sexual contact. I don't think that gay youth would be afforded the same
latitude. If one is to make a distinction between feelings and actions, the
goalposts should be the same for everybody.
Alan: "She has claimed to have been mentally unstable in the past, due to
emotional and sexual abuse by her father. Many people dismiss her as an example
of bi-sexuality. That's easy to say, but many, if not most, homosexuals have
similar backgrounds."-----------And where did you
get this information? I beg to differ. Of all the gays I know, maybe 10% of
them have been abused. I think that is less than most of the population: 1-4
women and 1-6 men.Where did you get your information?
I personally know people who have changed. Change is possible, and does, indeed,
work. Yes, it takes effort; but it does work.One example many people
will recognize is the actress Anne Heche. She had a lesbian relationship, then
broke up, married a man and bore a child. She has claimed to have been mentally
unstable in the past, due to emotional and sexual abuse by her father. Many
people dismiss her as an example of bi-sexuality. That's easy to say, but many,
if not most, homosexuals have similar backgrounds. Hence, the need
for groups like Evergreen who offer clear hope for change.It's
easier to simply claim to be born that way, seek sympathy, and side with those
who claim to be genderless. But the evidence - and logic - points the other way.
Now, how about the National Organization for Marriage, or NOM?
*'NOM Strategist, Louis J. Marinelli, Declares Support For Same-Sex Marriage' -
Huffington Post 04/09/11 'Last summer, I organized the Summer for
Marriage Tour for NOM. For 30 days, I traveled across the nation pushing an
un-American agenda that harms gays, lesbians, and their families. I deeply
regret...' *'Former Bush campaign chief tells magazine he's gay' -
MSNBC - 08/26/10 'Ex-GOP chair Ken Mehlman, says he will advocate
for gay marriage, regrets not coming out earlier.' Ted Haggard: *'Church forces out Haggard for 'sexually immoral conduct' - 11/03/06 -
CNN 'On Friday, Haggard admitted he had received a massage from a
Denver man who claimed the prominent pastor had paid him for sex over three
years. Haggard also admitted he had bought methamphetamine.' Exodus
International. Michael Bussee (male), one of the founders of Exodus
and Gary Cooper (another male), a leader within the ministry of Exodus, left the
group to be with each other in 1979. I have also heard, albiet,
rumors of a BYU study in 1974. I would appreciate any information on this
topic. Trying to change orientation, does not work.
Esquire: "And is there to be a permanent class of celibacy" ?Yes. And of the several members of that class that I personally
know, only one is of same-sex orientation.Three are married
heterosexuals.Four are unmarried heterosexuals.Homosexuals do
not hold a singular place in that class. Like them, others--for many
different reasons besides homosexuality--are sad but valiant lds gospel-worthy
members of that club.
'H-65.973 Health Care Disparities in Same-Sex Partner Households Our AMA: (1)
recognizes that exclusion from civil marriage contributes to health care
disparities affecting same-sex households; (2) will work to reduce health care
disparities among members of same-sex households including minor children; and
(3) will support measures providing same-sex households with the same rights and
privileges to health care, health insurance, and survivor benefits, as afforded
opposite-sex households. (CSAPH Rep. 1, I-09; BOT Action in response to referred
for decision Res. 918, I-09: Reaffirmed in lieu of Res. 918, I-09) -
American Medical Association Now, let's look at the OTHER side. Narth National Association For Research And Therapy Of
Homosexuality. Another group that believes you can 'overcome'
orientation. 'A Heaven-Sent Rent Boy' - By FRANK RICH NY Times -
05/15/10 '..married, '61-year-old (George) Rekers was caught by
Miami New Times last month in the company of a 20-year-old male escort at Miami
International Airport.' George Rekers, a FOUNDING BOARD MEMBER of
Narth... found, in the company of a 20 year old male, escort. I cannot see how Narth has any credibility.
'Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. All of the major medical organizations,
including The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological
Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics agree that homosexuality is
not an illness or disorder, but a form of sexual expression.'Published online: 11/2008Source: Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Teens:
Information for Teens and Parents - America Acadamy of
Pediactrics *Survey links gay suicides to religious message - BY
KRISTEN MOULTON SL TRIBUNE 02/17/11 *'Teens gay or straight
more likely to attempt suicide in conservative towns' - By LINDSEY TANNER -
Medical Writer - AP - 04/18/11 'CHICAGO Suicide attempts by gay
teens and even straight kids are more common in politically conservative areas
where schools don't have programs supporting gay rights, a study involving
nearly 32,000 high school students found.'
'Although most of the presentations during the one-day conference in the Joseph
Smith Memorial Building focused on issues relative to same-gender attraction,
Elder Jensen said the Atonement was universal in its importance and
application.' - Article Atonement, means a person has done something
'wrong.' That, is fostered upong gay persons. Calling for them to be
'celibate' while others actively campaign to deny them marriage.
This, is the provable, and damaging results of TELLING someone they have done
something 'wrong'. Or, fostering guilt UPON them. *'Gay man says
'reversal' therapy did not change him' - By Lisa Leff - Associated Press -
Published by DSNews - 01/20/10'A gay man testified Wednesday in a
federal same-sex marriage trial that the "reversal therapy" he
underwent as a teenager to change his sexual orientation drove him to the brink
of suicide.' *'Psychologists nix gay-to-straight therapy' - AP -
08/05/09'The American Psychological Association declared
Wednesday...(sic) No solid evidence exists that such change (to orientation) is
likely, says the report, and some research suggests that efforts to produce
change could be harmful, inducing depression and suicidal tendencies.'
The philosophical, thus theological, implications are off the charts. There is
an inherent inconsistency in how the Gospel is administered. And is there to be
a permanent class of celibacy, even though marriage will eventually be the law?
Does the "doctrine" change or do the ceremonies change? Right now I
see a lot of rationalization and tap dancing, and I don't know how long it can