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Published: Saturday, Sept. 10 2011 2:29 p.m. MDT

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Cats
Somewhere in Time, UT

Attacks on the LDS Church stem from a combination of ignorance and deliberate dishonesty. Any preacher who receives his livelihood from the number of members he can attract to his church has a serious conflict of interest from the outset. Those who feel threatened by a Church that is taking their members have a strong incentive to spew out hatred and falsehoods. Many repeat those falsehoods just out of sheer ignorance. It will continue and all we can do is to try and set a good example and correct the falsehoods as best we can.

We need to remember that Christ watches over His Church and will continue to bless those who live His commandments. Those who are pure in heart will discern the truth even among all the confusion and falsehoods that others try to promote. The great rock will continue to roll forth from the mountain.

P.S. The Church will NEVER change its stance on homosexual lifestyle and "marriage."

The Caravan Moves On
Enid, OK

@ LDS4 who wrote "I SINCERELY beg for someone to explain how LDS and non-LDS Christian support of Prop.8 was not in violation of those verses."

___

My (Caravan) comment: and I sincerely beg you to explain how Prop. 8 went against the teachings of God.

ChuloDO
Salt Lake City, UT

One argument, Caravan, regarding the notion that support of Proposition 8 went against the teachings of God (or, at minimum, the principles of freedom of this country) is the intolerance that it implied. If Mormons and other people want to believe that homosexuality and/or gay marriage is wrong, then hey, it's a free country. But don't go around legislating your morality or religion on others--especially in another state.

While the LDS church reportedly did not directly support Proposition 8 financially, there was communication--formal and/or informal--that encouraged members to contribute funds in support of prop 8. This impetus came from Utah and affected primarily Californians, some of whom understandably preferred that Utah and Mormons (comprising only a minority of California residents) would mind their own business. While it wasn't illegal, it was meddling. All those who are grandstanding against gay marriage would be well served to focus on their own relationships, marriage or otherwise.

lds4gaymarriage
Salt Lake City, UT

Hawkyo -
LDS4, I've said it before, you speak out against the church, and its leaders. Your views are that of someone who has been blinded by the great deceiver.
And seriously, Marriage is NOT a right, and you also forget where rights come from. They come from God, not the government!

LDS4
Well, I'm obviously misinterpreting the verses I quoted. Do you know of an interpretation that allows people to use their religious opinions to justify infringing upon the rights of others? I'd love to hear it. Gays had the RIGHT in CA to marry prior to Prop.8 and we LDS let our "religious opinions prompt us to infringe upon the rights and liberties of" those gays. I'd love your help to overcome my apostate views.

Marriage IS a right. The US Supreme Court said so in the Loving ruling which overturned laws forbidding mixed-race marriages. The specific ruling that it overturned had a section where the overturned judge stated that God separated the races and therefore didn't intend for them to inter-marry and he quoted a Bible verse as support. Perhaps the Supremes were wrong since allowing inter-racial marriage clearly violates God's word.

ChuloDO
Salt Lake City, UT

"P.S. The Church will NEVER change its stance on homosexual lifestyle and "marriage.""

If that's what "the Church" wants to do, fine. Freedom of religion.

As for imposing its beliefs on others, though (e.g., Proposition 8), I would hope that they keep the meddling hands off. The gays who want to get married in Cali aren't impeding Mormons anywhere from raising a forever family.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

To LDS4GAYMARRIAGE: You may feel that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not obeying its own scriptures but as Curtis Hight spells out there is a huge difference. The question comes out either you sustain President Monson, the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers and revelators. You can disagree and I can guaranteee you that there are many disagreements between these brethern but in the end when President Monson, says this is the way it should be, then you find a complete unified front by all.

We are legally bound to vote our minds and beliefs. The problem is that they will continue to be front and center just as they were in California and every other state where it has been given to the people to vote on. President Packer spoke quite well when he said courts and legislatures can vote to change man laws to accomodate changes in society, yet they will never change the laws of God. We have a mandate and a charge to try and pass laws which are morally right, in accordance with the laws of God.

sharrona
layton, UT

The Voice of reason;Mormons don't see Jesus Christ for who Jesus Christ really is. That's the big issue.
Mormon Doctrine p742 (Jesus) Conceived and Born in the normal natural course of events.. .Also
The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood was begotten of His Father, as we are of our fathers. (JoD 8:115).

The pale of Christianity believes the birth of Jesus was a unique miracle by the Holy Spirit/Ghost same Greek word. This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about, His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Mt 1:18 NIV).
Protevangelium, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and HER seed(sperma,4690); it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Genesis 3:15). But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son- Born of a Woman- born under law(Joseph)(Galatians 4:4 NIV)

lds4gaymarriage
Salt Lake City, UT

The Caravan Moves On
..and I sincerely beg you to explain how Prop. 8 went against the teachings of God.

LDS4
Easy. 1 Cor.10:29 has Paul asking one person's moral sensitivities can justify infringing upon the rights of another. D&C 134:4 talks about those who allow their religious opinions to prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others. It's clear that God frowns upon those who use their own private religious/moral opinions as justification to infringe upon the rights of others.

Regarding Prop.8, gays in CA, prior to 8's passing had the right under CA law to marry. About 18000 gays DID marry. WE LDS, due to our religious/moral opinions about homosexuality, the family, etc...felt justified in trying to pass a law that clearly infringed upon the rights of others. Prop.8 objectively infringed upon the rights of gays. This seems to be in direct opposition to the scriptures.

The prophets have stated that their own words are inferior to scripture so the Proc or anything else not sustained as scripture, via Common Consent, can't override scripture.

It's pretty straight forward. Please let me know HOW I'm wrong.

Kevin J. Kirkham
Salt Lake City, UT

Bill in NE
The question comes out either you sustain President Monson, the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers and revelators.
LDS4
I do! Just as I supported HBL and JFS before him who both stated that their words are to be ignored if they don't align with scripture. The 3 + 12 can't just ignore scripture.

Bill
President Packer spoke quite well when he said courts and legislatures can vote to change man laws to accomodate changes in society, yet they will never change the laws of God.
LDS4
I'm not asking the Church to permit homosexual behaviors. I'm just saying that scripture forbids LDS from infringing upon the rights of others and that is what Prop8 did. We must refrain from doing what scritpure clearly condemns.

Bill
We have a mandate and a charge to try and pass laws which are morally right, in accordance with the laws of God.
LDS4
So we need to pass laws outlawing coffee, tea, shopping on Sundays and bikinis? Really? Isn't that what those who oppossed plural marriage 125 years ago thought that they were doing? You wanna emulate THEM? Really!?!?!

JediMormon
Omaha, NE

Comparing the church's stance on gay marriage to blacks receiving the priesthood, doesn't equate. For the church, gay marriage is a moral issue, whereas blacks receiving the priesthood had always been "at some point in time, they will get it". Having gay tendencies is not the concern--but acting on those tendencies is. That's the sin, according to the church. For myself, having an openly gay person in a leadership position in my ward would not bother me in the least. I would support that person just as well as I support the other leaders of my ward.

Blacks were finally able to receive the priesthood because of revelation from God. I don't see the same thing happening with gay marriage, however. (Personal opinion).

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@Hawkyo
"Your views are that of someone who has been blinded by the great deceiver. "

Curious how some people who would get offended if someone of another faith said that about their faith... are just fine using it against others.

Kevin J. Kirkham
Salt Lake City, UT

sharrona
Mormon Doctrine is NOT Mormon Doctrine. Only the scriptures are doctrine. We OFFICIALLY join with other Christians in believing in the miraculous conception of Christ. We don't know the exact methods or mechanics of how God did it. It doesn't really matter how it happened...it only matters THAT it happened and that we all benefit from the atonement of Christ.

All faiths have leaders who have made statements and commentaries that are foolish and I don't think you want to take ownership for things that Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagen, Tony Alamo and others have said. We LDS have a bad habit of taking everything that the GAs say as Gospel. The prophets have said that we shouldn't do it, but too many can't resist.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

To Kevin J Kirkham and LDS4GayMarriage: The Word of Wisdom is a commandment to follow, it is not a law. You have the law of tithing, the doctrine of marriage and etc. It stands as it should for all to follow, but it isn't governing. To LDS4 same-sex marriage is a MORAL issue, not a right issue. Those who believe that are preaching false doctrine. It has nothing to do with rights thus they are not going against the scriptures as stated.

I'll ask both of you to go back and try to find every General Conference talk ever given. You probably won't be able to do so but we are told that those talks especially those given during those conferences are SCRIPTURE. If we were to take each of those conferences and put them together, you wouldn't be able to carry that book around with you. Why, do you think that the 4th Sunday of every month is given to studying and learning about selected talks by your Stake President for both the Relief Society and Priesthood. It is true that we are not to take what is said as Gospel but to LEARN for ourselves.

sharrona
layton, UT

Kirk C Kirkham: All faiths have leaders who have made statements and commentaries that are foolish and I don't think you want to take ownership for things that Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagen,Alamo and others have said. True, They are very schismatic in the body of believers, but they hold no authority over the vast majority,But your authorities:

Brigham Young said, The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood was begotten of His Father, as we are of our fathers. (JoD 8:115).

Joseph Fielding Smith, They tell us the BoM states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The BoM teaches No Such thing! Neither does the Bible! (Doctrines of Salvation Vol 1:18) Check Alma 7:10 and Mt 1:18.

Heber C Kimball, I was naturally begotten; so was my father,and also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the scriptures ,he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it.(JoD 8:21)
No room for Orson Pratt,and others.

Curtis Hight
Juneau, AK

lds4gaymarriage/Kevin,

Your comments at 3:17 p.m. and 3:34 p.m., and ChuloDO's around noon, are largely answered through my 2:44 a.m. comments. You seem to be wanting a civic world where freedom of speech is limited to those voices you agree with, and you seem to want to wrest scriptural context and meaning and then shackle the Church with this wrested interpretation. The First Amendment and other laws answer the legal issues and virtues have to answer for public relations, while Jarom 1:5 and Mosiah 29 answer the scriptural questions.

President Obama, Ron Paul, and Mitt Romney all approach civic government based on their personal beliefs about morality. The Nixon, Ford, and Carter administrations supported a 55 mph speed limit. Why? Morality! From a certain point of view! The Reagan administration supported higher speed limits. Why? Morality! From another point of view. We're almost always, if not always, legislating morality: "legislating morality" isn't the issue, "what is moral?" is the question. And I value your freedom of speech in a public conversation laboring to answer it!

Linus
Bountiful, UT

Sharrona, Are you saying that Protestants don't believe that Jesus had a father; are you saying that Mary was his only parent? If so, then you are the one denying that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father. Not the Mormons, falsely accused by the Carolina preacher.

Kevin J. Kirkham
Salt Lake City, UT

Bill in Nebraska ...same-sex marriage is a MORAL issue, not a right(s) issue. Those who believe that are preaching false doctrine. It has nothing to do with rights thus they are not going against the scriptures as stated.

KJK
Sorry, Prop 8 had to do with which CIVIL rights the CIVIL government would grant to those whose unions were recognized under CIVIL law. The scriptures condemn us using our religion as justification to infringe upon those CIVIL rights. Our religion rightly states that homosexuality is wrong, but Prop.8 wasn't a referendum on our beliefs, but rather about the CIVIL rights and standing afforded same-sex couples.

Bill...talks especially those given during those conferences are SCRIPTURE.
KJK
"Some of the brethren have been willing to submit to the inference that what they have said was pronounced under the influence of the inspiration of the Lord and that it therefore is the will of the Lord... but that does not become binding upon the Church unless and until it is submitted to the scrutiny of the rest of the brethren and later to the vote of the people."
Hugh B. Brown

Sorry, only SUSTAINED scripture is binding.

Andermart
Pullman, WA

Sharrona:

As a previously baptized member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you should know better. Although you are likely to refuse the correction, in the spirit of this wonderful article, you need to be corrected.

Paramount in LDS theology is the teaching that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Our premier article of faith states: "WE BELIEVE IN GOD THE ETERNAL FATHER, AND IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, AND IN THE HOLY GHOST." It cannot be clearer.

Jesus is not the son of Joseph, nor is He the son of the Holy Spirit, nor a mere prophet. He is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh, through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is unique miracle in our eyes. No other than Jesus Christ has ever had an immortal father and mortal mother. He held power over death. He lived a perfect life. No other person could be our Savior. No other person wrought the infinite atonement. God, Our Heavenly Father, was His earthly Father. The scriptures are instructively clear. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God.

Do you believe something entirely different from these beliefs?

Kevin J. Kirkham
Salt Lake City, UT

Curtis Hight
D&C 134:4 and 1Cor.10:29 aren't intended to prevent a body politic from legislating morality.
KJK
Both clearly show that subjective morality can't justify infringing upon the rights of others.

CH
The question isn't whether or not we should legislate morality (because there isn't much, if anything else we legislate), the question is "what is moral?"
KJK
We may legislate OBJECTIVE morality..outlawing acts that OBJECTIVELY harm the person(murder), property(theft) or rights(kidnapping) of others. Outlawing acts that are SUBJECTIVELY immoral (19th century polygamy)is wrong.

CH
You seem to be wanting a civic world where freedom of speech is limited to those voices you agree with..
KJK
You're free to speak, just not free, per scripture, to harm the rights of others.

CH
..and you seem to want to wrest scriptural context and meaning and then shackle the Church with this wrested interpretation...Jarom 1:5 and Mosiah 29 answer the scriptural questions.
KJK
Sorry, but 1Cor.10:29 and D&C 134:4 are newer, and therefore overriding, scripture. We don't live in Law of Moses theocracies. Paul & JS lived in pluralistic societies. No religion overrules another. All have equal rights.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

Curtis Hight,

Well said!

With the exception of one, all of my philosophy professors had problems with the Church based on their liberal views. I often tried explaining that liberalism when properly understood is entirely compatible with what the Church believes. I argued that 'yes, we believe that all should be free so long as they do not infringe others freedom; but prop 8 was not infringing freedom in the slightest. If I said, 'in private practice they can do as they wish, marry as they wish, like polygamists currently do, just without state endorsement' then what freedom is taken away from the individual when the crowd simply says 'we don't endorse your private institution'. A crowd's refusal to endorse and politically sanction a private institution does not take away individual liberty."

My point in all this isn't actually in that quote. I'm referencing it (and I often argue that on here) simply to say this- Even those professors would agree that we're always legislating morality.

Are there people on both sides of the debate using logical fallacies? Yes. What we should focus our attention on, is the productive ends of the debate. Although it's often hard to do.

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