@Raybies,If the gay-lifestyle is a religion, how do you explain all
the gay Christians, Mormons, and those of other faiths?Gay is an
orientation, not a religion.
Seeing how many gay-advocates have come onto this thread to claim victimhood of
persecution, and this article is about religious persecution, I think we can
safely say that the gay-lifestyle is a religion.
Voice Of Reason: "How are we taking away rights? I don't support stopping
gays from doing anything. 10 couples - 1 is gay - we vote no - they are still
gay, nothing changed. - the ONLY thing "no" applies to is group
recognition and support."---------------The best
answer for this is in the constitution. The 14th amendment states: "...No
State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or
immunities of citizens of the United States:..."So, if you get
any rights or privileges, so should all the other people who are law-abiding,
tax-paying citizens of this great nation.You may not like them or
what they do, but they are Americans. Their rights and privileges are not up
for a vote.
Actually Duck, the laws said nothing at all about same-sex marriage. It wasn't
against any constitutions or laws until religious nuts decided to encode
discrimination into our legal system.Until that time we could
legally marry since there wasn't anything against it. It's just that most
places wouldn't grant a license anyway. Then religions realized that they had
overlooked something and you saw this plethora of constitutional amendments
begin.That is when religious bigots began to rewrite the laws.
"Choosing to disagree personally with gay marriage is one thing. Rewriting
the law so that others are unable to make a choice at all is something
else."You mean "re-re-writing" the law. We didn't
need to re-write the law, until your judges re-wrote it first.
Why do we send "aid" to countries without religious freedom? In Iran
6500 bibles were confiscated. Nice place.
%Blue 10:47You have a talent, I wish you luck, and I hope you find a
venue for it to help others find reason in life. Maybe a job with the DN, they
can really use some insightful logical writers.
"Joe Blow & Dave", Being a CONVERT to the LDS Church, I understand
where you are coming from. I am not from here, but moved here. The LDS
"Culture" outside of Utah is much more accepting, as is preached by
the prophets and apostles, to accept and love others for whom they are, not
dislike and hate for what they are not. Here it is different because
"Mowing the Lawn on Sunday" or other "Law Of Moses" type
things are looked upon as "Should Not Do's", and the people here are
Raised that way. They like the Pharasees and Sagisees that Jesus Condemned will
be so condemned at the Judgement bar of Christ, for their lack of acceptance and
understanding, and for their persecution of you and others. Even I & you for
judging them if we know better. The thing to remember is, they may think they
are better, but they are not, and they have been told so by a Prophet of God,
any GOOD Latter-day Saint would smile and offer a salutation and be friendly. We
don't believe in Child baptism, should I not have attended my cousin's newborn
Christening in another Church? Well I did!!! God Bless!
A voice of ReasonBasically 100% democratic. I believe that if the people
don't want it, it shouldn't happen.LDS4Kinda like when people
used their votes to have anti polygamy laws passed 150 years ago. Kinda like
the Saudis not allowing Christians to build churches. The people dont want it
so the Christians dont get to build. The people didnt want it, so it shouldnt
happen...right? Do you REALLY want to hang your hat on that logic?Democracy is 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for lunch. It's great
if you are a wolf and lousy if you are a sheep. We LDS were the sheep 150 years
ago and now many LDS have forgotten about that and now want to be the wolves.
VOR, you should move out of the Inter-Mountain West where we LDS are the sheep
and see that the tyranny of the majority DOES exist.
A voice of Reason 8:06 p.m.Most of the Southern population once
believed that keeping other people as slaves was a perfectly fine thing to do.
Does that mean that the government should have let them? The majority of the
people living in the American colonies didn't even initially support the
struggle for independence from England. Should we have voted on that?And I notice that you still haven't answered my question. How would you react
if the validity of your marriage could be decided by popular vote?
@Voice;9 wolves, 1 sheep.Which one is dinner.GLBT couples pay taxes just like heterosexual couples do. If GLBT couples
aren't to be given the same legal protections, from government, that accrue
through marriage, then neither should heterosexual couples.
There are some incorrect notions that have been thrown into this forum that I
think ought to be pointed out.1. "Thinking people don't
believe in religion." Not true. Very many religious people have higher
degrees, use logic in their lives, accept science as it shows what is true, and
read/understand widely.2. "Religion is responsible for most of
the violence in the world." Not true. The most deaths by violence in the
20th Century were caused by governments that were officially atheist or
anti-religious. While I agree that there are many deaths in the name of
religion, most of those are actually a result of someone's NOT following the
religion, but using the name of the religion for political ends. (The deaths,
therefore, are political, not religious. There would be fewer deaths by
violence if people actually followed the tenets of the world's religions.)3. "Mormons are complainers who don't understand
persecution." Learn the true history.4. "Mormons don't
know what it's like to have their marriages legislated against." Learn the
history.5. "Mormons are hiding something (especially about
Prop 8)." Difficult to do when there is so much public documentation about
this new religion.
KJB1,1- Benefits of marriage are a separate issue. Unions could be
given the same benefits and that's if they even should exist or even should be
given those benefits. We are equal in the vote, not in what government may dish
out to people. Entitlement and right to be free are different. They are free to
act, not to force my support.2- "God condemns it" is not
the only argument. In fact, it's not an argument I use. I'm arguing that because
I don't support it, it shouldn't happen (religion being irrelevant). Basically
100% democratic. I believe that if the people don't want it, it shouldn't
happen. WE form our government, we rule our government. The government does not
rule us. So far, I don't believe you really disagree with this (or many others).
Where I believe we disagree is more relating to the post from
"Ranch".Ranch,How are we taking away rights? I
don't support stopping gays from doing anything. 10 couples - 1 is gay - we vote
no - they are still gay, nothing changed. - the ONLY thing "no"
applies to is group recognition and support.Freedom is a right,
endorsement isn't. Please address that point.
@Voice;Freedom is threatened when we VOTE to take away another
It isn't hard to understand the reasons behind hostility towards religion.Religions condone blowing up innocent people in the name of
"god".Religions condone stripping individual liberty in
the name of "religious liberty".Religions condone bigotry
and discrimination against other religions - the "my god is the only
god" syndrome.Religion is a corruption of spirituality.
A voice of Reason 5:36 p.m.You don't have to agree with gay
marriage. You can dislike it all you want, but using the law to disenfrancise
millions of people based on nothing more than "God thinks gay people are
gross" is a huge injustice. Getting married "privately"
(whatever that means) still deprives them of hundreds of legal rights that
heterosexuals like us get to take for granted when we we enter into unions with
the people that we love. The Supreme Court has already ruled that
"separate but equal" is a misnomer.Again, I have to ask:
What if the majority of people decided that YOUR marriage wasn't worth
"legal endorsement or validation"? How would you react?
KJB1,"Rewriting the law so that others are unable to make a
choice at all"Freedom = private exercise and belief unmolested.
However, what government promotes, endorses, or 'legitimizes' is up to the
people.No one is taking away the choice to get married. We're
preserving our choice not to give it legal endorsement or validation. They can
still get married privately, just like polygamists can. People can freely
believe and practice according to their own dictates. If we stopped polygamists
from even living under the same roof, etc. then yes, we would be forcing them.
Why is it that liberals seem to think they are forced when others don't agree
with them? I'm not forcing anyone when I say "I don't like it and I won't
give them a legal certificate" because they can still do it all they
want.The 'gay religion' is currently exercising their freedom to
worship/believe what they want and exercise/practice those beliefs. What the
state endorses is an entirely separate issue. If the state doesn't give
certificates recognizing baptisms for the dead, then the LDS Church's freedoms
are not infringed. According to liberal logic, it would be. See the problem?
I, for instance, get harrassed in my native land (USA) for my religious
"Pew found that Christians were harassed in 130 countries, Muslims in 117
countries and Jews in 75 countries"I wonder how many atheists
are harrassed in since they're the demographic that US voters are least willing
to vote for (even homosexuals have lower "unwilling to vote for"
A voice of Reason 12:17 p.m.Choosing to disagree personally with gay
marriage is one thing. Rewriting the law so that others are unable to make a
choice at all is something else.How would you like it if we took a
vote and decided that your marriage was invalid? Would you just roll over and
The tension between good and evil will always be here, until He comes again. As
a world-wide traveler, I have experienced religious tolerance, intolerance and
judgment at home and abroad. But, for me, these are but tutorials and tests in
my commitment to follow Him to individually make a difference. Transplanted from Chicago via California to Utah, I view the Beehive State
through this lens: Utah, a microcosm of the greater world. How I
love coming home to Utah and my mountains; where we can enjoy a summer get away
in Park City or trips to 5 national parks and 7 national monuments or take an
adventure with the grandkiddies to 43 state parks for $75, and experience the
handiwork of God. And how I enjoy my Muslim, Mormon, Protestant, Catholic,
Evangelical, Jewish, Buddhist, Scientologist, Hindus, religious, irreligious,
Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist, Liberal, Conservative, Republican, Democrat,
Libertarian, Tea Party, Independent, College educated, high school
graduate,drop-out, honest, dishonest, gay,straight, accepting, not, boy, girl,
old, young, rich, poor,employed, unemployed, neighbors, friends, and family.
All are part and parcel of my tutoring to be a kind and loving person. There
will always be another test.
Just because I believe that my invisible inscrutable sky daddy is better than
your invisible inscrutable sky daddy, you get all critical towards me. Stop picking on me for my beliefs!I tell you that I believe in
magic and spirits and angels and an all-loving and omnipotent god who answers my
prayers about the weather being nice for my outdoor wedding reception but who
lets millions of children die of disease and starvation each year - and you roll
your eyes at me and tell me I don't have a firm grip on reality? Don't you see how offensive that is to me?I pick and choose which
bits of science to believe so I can function in the 21st Century and still hold
on to a bunch of Bronze Age beliefs about the universe, and you criticize me for
it? What's with that?I pick and choose which of the
Bible's/Koran's Bronze Age instructions to follow - so I won't go to jail for
killing rape victims, disrespectful teens and people who work on Sunday - and
you tell me I'm an irrational bundle of delusions and cognitive dissonance ?Help! I'm being repressed!
Great comments on this article. I couldn't help but chuckle at the
reference to Smith's comments about the invisible pressures of religion -
"in some cultures defying parents would make someone an outcast" -
doesn't that sound uncomfortably like many in the LDS faith? The number of gay
children that are ostracized is reprehensible. The LDS church declared war
against an entire community and orchestrated a campaign against Prop8 and were
not forthright about their role...still haven't been. Invisible pressures? And doesn't school-sponsored, graduation credit earning Seminary put
invisible pressures on many kids?Religion is one of the leading
causes of conflict and death in the world and while our pluralistic view in the
US has insulated us to a large extent, the US still has doctors killed by
religious zealots, crazy demonstrations at the funerals of fallen heroes and
loons who burn religious texts for publicity only.Where is the
discussion of our political leaders and "news" outlets - Fox
specifically - that lead an insurgence against Muslims, mosques and Muslim
leaders. For far too many, it's okay if it is directed at "the other
guys". Most of this religion vs religion. It's about Power and
Control...not about philosophy.
Is freedom being threatened? Yes!I don't believe in forcing my views
on others. If someone wants to get married, they can. I and my religion have no
problem with this. But there are certain forms of marriage I won't endorse, that
is my right.I will not endorse or promote homosexuality as
acceptable in belief or practice. BUT I will defend to the death their right to
disagree. So where is my problem? I'm free to believe and practice heterosexual
marriage. They are free to believe and practice their own form. Polygamists are
free to believe and practice their own.But what we recognize as
acceptable and endorse by the state doesn't have anything to do with what we
believe and practice in our private belief system or religion.No one
is forcing gays. Everyone EQUALLY voted on what the state endorses. Privately
practiced marriage is their own business and our 'state endorsement' vote didn't
take away their freedom to PRIVATELY practice. However, when gays try to remove
my freedom to vote by validating only their view, freedom is most certainly
threatened.Voting is democratic and FREE. This is "by the
people", not just by the gays.
@morpunktThank you for your reply, but pehaps you are not understanting
the interpretation or common use of the meaning of organized religion as an
incorporated political business institution.
The headline of this story is incredibly misleading: "Rising Hostility
Against Religion Worldwide."There's hardly any hostility
against *religion* in the world. Maybe a relatively few atheists and agnostics,
but they limit their hostility to speech, not physical violence.The
real hostility is by religious people against *other* religious people.
Religion itself is doing just "fine."It makes one wonder
if religion is ultimately more poisonous than nourishing, when we see the
results of believing that "ours is the only true way."I'm
reminded of the wonderful line: "Every day, more and more people are
leaving the churches . . . and returning to God." Would that it were so!
Imagine what peace there'd be in the world.In any case, I suggest
your headline should be: "Rising Hostility Worldwide Against People Who
An Atheist believes that only empirical evidence is verifiable and anything else
is false. An Agnostic believes that there may be more than empirical evidence,
but it couldn't be verified, etc.Some believe that empirical
evidence is unreliable because of imperfect human observation, or because
empiricism cannot be metaphysically verified, making such evidence definitively
weak. Catholicism rests here, with the only reliable source of anything valid
coming from an ancestral account of others who claim to have observed reliable
events, whether physical or otherwise.Some believe that empiricism
is all in the mind, a dream, or some sort of 'matrix'.LDS theology
concludes with the belief that empirical evidence is valid, God is physical, all
spirit is matter, etc... that the observation of one empirical event does not
negate the possibility or probability of one unobserved.Everyone
"believes" in something. The danger is the belief of destruction. When
people try to silence another belief. Religion has nothing to do with it. A
crusade to remove freedom to believe can come from anyone, religious,
irreligious, atheist, catholic, or mormon.---This is why
the freedom to believe or worship anything you desire is the most essential
factor in preserving peace.
I'm sure Muslims in America and Warren Jeffs and the FLDS Church can
relate to this article.As one who's ancestors left America because
of Religious intolerence -- I would have thought we - of ALL people - would be
some of the most sympathic to others same plight.Dave, JoeBlow:I lived in Seattle for 22 years.The intolerance of others is definetly a
Utah thing, not a Mormon thing.What more proof do we need than
having the LDS church creating a huge Public Relations gig right now called;
"I'm a Mormon".The whole premise is to get as far away as
possible from the whole "middle-age White Guy, Utahn Native, Republican,
with 6 kids" stero-type image.
This really shouldn't surprise anyone - all you have to do is look at the
mainstream American attitude towards Islam to see the hostility towards
religions other than ones own.Religion is under attack not from the
atheists, but from the religious.
@skepticReligion needs to be organized. Since when is it supposed to be
disorganized.If a religion is true, should it not, for instance, organize
its adherents to marshal their resources for the good. This is done time and
time again, with relief aid, to those not even of there faith.I find it
funny that the critics who often use the anti-organized religion mantra, but
find it to be just fine to organize against it.I believe the powers from
below would like to have religion disorganized.
To all the downtrodden in Utah who are experiencing so much
"hostility" at the hands of the oppressive majority . . . I'm not sure
if someone expressing an opinion different from your own counts as
"hostility" or even harrassment. I'm currently teaching a class on
Holocaust Literature -- I believe that those who have experienced true religious
persecution would be amused, if not offended, by your complaints.
With the increased access to knowledge and information more people are seeing
the hipocracy of organized religion that has much to do with politics and less
to do with a god. More believers worship their church religion than their
supposed god. Mormons worship mormonism, Catholics worship catholicism, Muslims
worship Islamism and they all have antipathy for their each others believe with
the lack of common love for their professed common god. It is no wonder that
thinking people are fed up with organized religion, it is mostly another big
corporate business enterprise marketing expensive pie in the sky to gullible
@JoeBlowAs a convert to the LDS faith since 1995, and living in
California, I have come to the conclusion that what both you and Dave have dealt
with is more of the Utah mentality, rather than the true intent of the LDS
church. Even my wife, as well as myself, find it rather nauseating, for
instance, to endure comments about how my artistic daughter dresses in church,
or how I opt to visit my non-LDS family on Sunday, where alcoholic beverages are
served, (when it's the only time I get to see them), etc. Most of those comments
come from Utah transplants. (However, not all are that way, by any means.)I and my family have had to endure and forgive quite a few back-handed
insults, over the years. But I refuse to let that preclude my from the
weekly associations with my loved ones in the church and from keeping me from
going back. That far outweighs the judgmental inconveniences. The "us
vs them" mentality on both sides of spectrum in the Utah area needs to
Religion empowers everyone to say that they're right and everybody else is
wrong. Of course that's going to breed discord. It's what divides us most.
Many decent non-LDS people become so weary of being told that the way that they
live is just not the correct way.
Most people would be just fine with religion if would mind it's own business and
let everyone else live in peace.
Another day, another chance for the DN to play the victim...
Dave,I can relate. I lived in Utah for about 10 years.I
found most to be good, caring, well-intentioned people.I did find
the people fairly uncompromising and judgmental of others. I assume it was
because most only associate with other LDS and they have little need to accept
that others may have different views.A neighbor of mine actually
came up and chastised me for mowing my lawn on Sunday. I had someone berate me
for having a glass of wine with my diner in a nice restaurant. Some would
not attend my wedding if alcohol was to be served.It is one thing to
live by your morals. It is quite another to try to impose your morals on
others.I have found that the LDS outside of Utah are much more
accepting. Probably by necessity.
Since moving to Utah 27 years ago I have become almost anti-religion. Being
harassed by the local majority church both in legislation and culture has really
made me think twice about the usefulness of religion.
"Pew found that Christians were harassed in 130 countries, Muslims in 117
countries and Jews in 75 countries"Thats a lot of countries
harassing the religious. For all of its statistics, the article
failed to point out how much of the "hostility against religion" is
actually coming from religious people.How many of these
"harassers" are doing so in the name of religion? My guess is
that it is MOST.