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Readers' forum: Tea party downgrade?

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  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Aug. 12, 2011 8:36 a.m.

    JustGordon | 5:53 p.m. Aug. 11, 2011
    Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Mike...as Utah Republicans are fond of pointing out...we live in a republic not a democracy. I guess you missed that lesson in civics class.

    ====================

    Agreed!

    and Mike Richards - you beloved George W. Bush didn't win by the majority of America either.

  • WHAT NOW? Saint George, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 9:50 p.m.

    And this is news?

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 9:21 p.m.

    The tea party leaders acknowledge they want a default and want to ruin the economy for political reasons. They are plotting the next obstruction now.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 6:53 p.m.

    Mountanman | 10:48 a.m.

    I tend to agree with your no. 3. As for the rest, even if you had a stack of accounting diplomas a mile high, I would not believe what you (or anyone else) has to say about the causes of big time finance.

    While I didn't say anything about spending or high taxes on the rich, I did allude to the efforts of some people who are trying to limit and make smaller our national government. If the national government is weakened the oppression of the people will not be controlled.

    I think that the troubles across the globe are the result of governments oppressing their people to the point where the people have nothing left to lose by rebelling. I think the riots, the killing of their own citizens is bad for business and would cause a lowering of the credit rating.

    And I think that it could happen in America.

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 5:53 p.m.

    Mike...as Utah Republicans are fond of pointing out...we live in a republic not a democracy. I guess you missed that lesson in civics class.

    59% of the people wanting or not wanting anything doesn't count, as the people have elected representatives for vote for them...these representatives have the only vote that counts on creating bills and making laws...if the people don't like how the representatives vote they can vote them out come next election. So much for your point.

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 5:22 p.m.

    Actually procuradorfiscal:

    Republican drew the line in the sand by saying that even getting rid of tax credits was a tax increase. Republicans refused to negotiate. And now the 6 super Congress Republicans have done the same thing!

    Republicans have let the World see that they are more interested in placating Tea Baggers and "standing on principle" than reaching any kind of reasonable compromise.

    Republican held America hostage and said so in lots of sound bites. To suggest otherwise is deceitful.

    Democrats never refused to decrease spending, the compromise shows your statement to be untrue, however Democrats rightly said more than just cutting some programs needs to happen. Republican threw a hissy fit and the resulting Political logjam cause S & P to downgrade the US credit rating, Because government was not very likely to function well. Nice job, GOP!

    Buying votes with money, Republicans are the masters at that, tax cuts for the rich and tax credits for corporations so they don't have to pay any income taxes...like GE, Mobil Exxon

    And yes it still is Bush's Fault; Junior was way dumber than his father and let Cheney lead him astray. Mission Accomplished!

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 4:28 p.m.

    Right wing policies are a disaster.
    Therefore anyone who notices must be vilified if they are to remain in power.

    What they dont seem to understand is that the more hysterical they get, the more obvious the failure becomes.

    From budget surpluses to budget deficits. From not being at war to being in two wars, one of them trumped up with WMD lies so junior could get back at Saddam's attempt on his dad's life. The war in Afghanistan with no exit plan and no thought to how we would do things differently from the Russians, 20yrs earlier. Not bad for a president AWOL from his reserve unit during Viet Nam.

    From cheap gas to expensive gas because of mid east instability resulting from these two wars, however W's oil friends in Houston did not mind, neither did Cheney's friends in Halliburton. And for the icing on the disaster cake, end any meaningful oversight on Wall Street, let the boys with the real money create as financial disaster that $5 trillion dollars later the world has yet to see the end of. Mission Accomplished!

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Aug. 11, 2011 4:06 p.m.

    T-partiers caused downgrade by refusing to pay the debt they incurred by (a) cutting our revenue and (b)fighting 2 useless wars. T-partiers are essentially deadbeats.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 3:34 p.m.

    The Down-grade can be blamed on liberals because:

    1. Refusing to Compromise.

    2. Showing the World that Congress is out of control by making themselves and their own Congressional leaders look like fools [admittedly, they didn't need much help].

    3. Holding America hostage - Demanding they get their way, or falsely threatening to commit National suicide.

    4. Refusing to decrease spending by dropping stupid, unsustainable spending on silly, meaningless, bloated government, just to buy their votes with our money.

    I could go on, and on too!

    The trademark of the Democrat Party -- Blame everything on everyone else (remember, "It's ALL Bush's fault!").

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Aug. 11, 2011 1:44 p.m.

    "Will of the few"? What a laugh!

    Mr. Obama signed into law the Health Care Reform Act OVER the objections of 59% of the Citizens!

    Mrs. Pelosi and Mr. Reid pushed that legislation through Congress over the objections of 59% of the Citizens!

    Don't tell us that Mr. Obama, Mrs. Pelosi or Mr. Reid are doing the "will" of those who elected them to office. They are doing their OWN will, against the will of the People.

    It doesn't stop there; it only begins there. There is NOTHING being done in Washington that reflects the will of the majority. The minority, with their community organizers, their Mr. Wrights, their Bill Ayers, there Barrack Obamas are subverting the will of the people.

    The "change" promised by Mr. Obama has nothing to do with Americans or the American way of life; it has everything to do with George Soros, Bill Ayers, Mr. Wright and the other "friends" who put Mr. Obama in office; those who still support him over the objections of the Citizens of America.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 1:07 p.m.

    @Mountanman:
    I believe the issue can be solved without a balanced budget amendment.

    Congress doesn't just pass a bill and suddenly we have a constitutional amendment. It can take years. Do you want to wait years before tackling the problem?

    Something as important as a Constitutional amendment should be thought out and well-considered. Those tea party nuts slipped a rider onto Boehner's bill as we approached the deadline. Probably most congressmen didn't even read it.

    Have you considered the downside of that amendment? I remember being so impressed with George Bush spoke to the nation after 9-11 "We know who did it. It was Al Queda, and we're gonna get them."

    Here is the version of that speech after the Tea Party amendment: "We know who did it. It was Al Queda, and we can't afford to get them this year. We might have some money next year, or the year after that if we cut back on some road projects or the school lunch program."

    An amendment is a divisive waste of time. The Tea Party is in the way.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 1:02 p.m.

    I wondered why mountainman kept using this "Fire" analogy?
    A simple search of "fire" and "deficit" turned up the usual suspects limbaugh, beck and hannity.
    Who's wonderful spin has never let the facts get in the way of a good Fear Factor opportunity.
    Koolaid of propaganda has been replaced by tea.

    Drink up mntman

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Aug. 11, 2011 12:40 p.m.

    cut, cap and balance plan never had a chance, regardless if you like it or not.

    It was one sided. It was put forth to be one sided. And in the end, there are a bunch of Republicans that would not have voted for it. Even Newt recognized that.

    How about putting forth balanced legislation that has a chance.

    And dont forget, the Republicans Contract for America contained a BBA that the Republican Congress never even tried to pass.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Aug. 11, 2011 12:35 p.m.

    I would bet that had the Obama/Boehner plan gone thru the downgrade would not have happened, at least not yet.

    I am still amazed that in a divided government, one side feels that it is reasonable to offer nothing and demand that their wishes are granted.

    Had we had significant spending cuts and a modest tax increase, we would have the ability to reduce the deficit and avoid the downgrade.

    From what I saw, the dems and OBAMA were willing to make those cuts.

    You tell me why the Obama/Boehner plan didn't pass.

    One hint T-Party

  • Midvaliean MIDVALE, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 11:48 a.m.

    Its sounds like partisan politics, which is absolute rubbish.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 11:46 a.m.

    In a recent article entitled "KKK Snowman Spreads Holiday Hate In Hayden", it states that a "resident is taking the opportunity to spread a little hate". It is the spirit of this behavior that is being used by the tea party. Their attitude of their way or we will burn down the house is harmful to this country. They claim to love the United States, yet their rhetoric is anything but. They claim to love the freedoms afforded by the Constitution, yet they seek to impose the will of the few on the majority. Civil discussion and working through issues is the better way. The tea party seems to have lost their way on this concept.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Aug. 11, 2011 11:25 a.m.

    @ Moderate. "The Tea Party blocked the firetruck from getting to the fire, insisting that the truck be outfitted with a balanced bugdget amendment spare tire." With all due respect:
    What's wrong with doing something to put out the fire out completely with a cut, cap and balance plan instead of just kicking the fire down the road where it will surely get larger?
    Do you want our country to end up like England, Spain and Greece which are being consumed by the same fires we are fighting? Of course not! Then lets put out the fire and stop fooling around with it!
    I hope Obama runs his re-election campainging against all the damage the tea party has done instead of his own record Because as much as anyone else he is culpable for this fire!

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Aug. 11, 2011 10:48 a.m.

    @ Ultra Bob. So if we believe you, it isn't because the government is spending way to much money, its because rich people aren't paying enough taxes, right? Good luck selling that one! Let me see if I can help you. The reason our credit rating got downgraded and the resulting crash of the stock market is because:
    #1:We have massive national debt and Obama and the Democrats have no plan except to spend more money we don't have and run up the debt even higher and raise taxes.
    #2: American employers (evil corporations to you) are facing increased costs of hiring largely due to Obamacare looming and more and more government regulations inposed by government.
    #3: For 3 years now, every economic indicator is going south with no end in sight and Obama is clueless how to turn it around causing a huge lack of consumer confidence.
    #4: Food and energy costs inflation is double digits with no end in sight or plan to increase oil supply. Like it or not, industry is dependant on affordable energy!
    #5:44 million Americans are now on food stamps, the most in our history with no end is sight.
    Get it?

  • Bunnyhop SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 10:47 a.m.

    The spin here is mindboggling
    The left has spent irresponsibly and mindlessly regardless of what the right did
    The left made no credible effort at debt reduction regardless of what the right did
    The left had NO plan regardless of what the right did
    The left adopted NO budget regardless of what the right did
    Theft left used completely unfounded scare tactics (no SS checks) regardless of what the right did
    The left expresses hate in the name of tolerance regardless of what the right did

    Whatever problems the right has, the left still owns theirs
    This is a Left wing Democratic Obama spending downgrade

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 10:43 a.m.

    Mountanman, I belive your "fire" analogy should read:

    Everyone recognized there was a fire.
    Democrats and Republicans (finally) agreed on how many firemen to send.
    The Tea Party blocked the firetruck from getting to the fire, insisting that the truck be outfitted with a balanced bugdget amendment spare tire.

    That's why the Tea Party is being blamed. They were willing to block the firetruck and let the place burn to the ground.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 10:09 a.m.

    The downgrade of America's standing in the world, is being caused by those people who want the government of the United States of America to be weak and ineffective in protecting it's citizens. Like in cut, cap and balance.

    If the shoe fits, wear it.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Aug. 11, 2011 10:03 a.m.

    Blame Bush, blame the tea party, blame corporations, blame the rich, blame SUVs, blame everyone and everything except who is really causing our problems; over spending politicians and our massive national debt!

  • Bunnyhop SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 9:09 a.m.

    @Screwdriver
    Are you talking about the "right-wing" policy advocated by Frank and instigated by Clinton to push banks into making risky home-mortgage loans that led to the housing collapse, which led to this current crisis?

    Short memory and team worship indeed

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 9:07 a.m.

    "The first thing lawmakers could have done is to have raised the debt ceiling in a timely manner so that much of this debate had been avoided to begin with, as it had done 60 or 70 times since 1960 without that much debate," said John Chambers, the head of sovereign ratings at S&P.

    S&P had already said they wanted to see at least a 4 trillion dollar deal for the next 10 years. [Which the Deomcrats proposed]
    But, those same Tea Party members blamed for the fighting were fighting for a much larger cuts. They wanted to cut much deeper into federal spending and reform entitlement programs.
    [i.e., Going for broke].

    President Obama also wanted a larger deal that would have included tax increases only on the wealthiest of Americans, which Standard and Poors would have supported as well, but once again, those same Tea Party Republican refused to compromise.
    .
    .
    .
    Yes, we can clearly blame the Tea Partiers - based on the S&P themselves.

    (Source...ironically - FoxNews)

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 9:00 a.m.

    Tough fighting a backlash started by tea party advocates with old spin.

  • Nonconlib Orem, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 8:58 a.m.

    Even though I shouldn't be, I'm still amazed at the letters to this newspaper that evidence such an appalling lack of understanding of economics. Of course, the Tea Party program for destroying the country can't even be called economics. It's really just bad arithmetic. There is no way on earth we can balance our budget by only cutting spending. What, Richard, are we going to cut to shave over a trillion dollars from our annual spending?

    But let me see if I understand this correctly. We can't afford to close corporate tax loopholes when profits have been at record levels, even in the midst of the "Great Recession." We can't afford to tax the super-rich, even when CEO pay went up 23 percent from 2009 to 2010. We can't raise tax rates when Warren Buffett's tax rate is lower than the cleaning lady's. We can't afford to raise taxes when a hedge fund manager's take-home pay was $5 billion last year, and he's not a "job creator."

    What the Tea Party does not understand is that their movement is not very original or independent. It is simply another program that benefits large corporations and Wall Street.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 8:37 a.m.

    The Down-grade can be blamed on the Tea Party because:

    1. Refusing to Compromise [Something required in Non-Totalitarian regimes].

    2. Showing the World that Congress is out of control by making their own Congressional leader [Speaker John Boehner] look like a fool.

    3. Holding America hostage - Demanding they get their way, or commit National suicide.

    4. Refusing to increase revenues by dropping stupid tax breaks on the Uber-Rich and Wealthy [who could still get those tax breaks - if only they re-invested their income back into the economy or grew their businesses.]

    I could go on, and on....but jumping up and down - even claiming "Victory!" in the Federal Budget debates -- and then when reality kicks in and things turn negative, so they turn right around denying they were they cause of the down grade is completely ridiculous!

    Denialism - (remember the Birthers)
    The trademark of the Tea Party.

  • Screwdriver Casa Grande, AZ
    Aug. 11, 2011 8:03 a.m.

    We are still IN the FAILURE of right wing policies goldfish. "Hi my name's Dora. Have we met?"

    The right wing strategy is to take advantage of short memories and team worship mentalities to blame someone else for thier disaster.

  • silas brill Heber, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 8:01 a.m.

    John Chambers, the head of sovereign ratings at S&P, told CNN that the political brinkmanship over the debt ceiling proved to be a key issue, with "the U.S. government getting to the last day before they had cash-management problems."

    It wasn't the Democrats who forced this issue to the last day. It wasn't the Democrats that threatened default. This was regarding a budget Congress had already approved. Using default as a bargaining chip was the Tea Party Republican's business.

  • Invisible Hand Provo, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 7:49 a.m.

    It's ironic that Senator Kerry, who has been in Congress for decades, blames this debt mess that has been building for decades, on the Tea Party influence that is barely two years old.

  • KM Cedar Hills, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 7:48 a.m.

    Rand

    Eric Cantor had had enough of this president and his unrelenting desire to bring down America. Who can blame him when one looks at the way he was raised, the people who have influenced him all his life. Its a wonder he is even able to get up in the morning. BTW, didn't the 'anointed one' walk out of another meeting before Cantor? why did you fail to mention that?

  • Furry1993 Clearfield, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 7:48 a.m.

    To Counter Intelligence | 6:51 a.m. Aug. 11, 2011

    And this is even more true:
    Far right wing policies are a disaster
    Therefore anyone who notices must be vilified if they are to remain in power

    What they dont seem to understand is that the more hysterical they get, the more obvious the failure becomes.

  • Screwdriver Casa Grande, AZ
    Aug. 11, 2011 7:44 a.m.

    You may not have seen McCain go balistic on the Tea Party. Was that glossed over on Faux News?

    McCain wont apologize for calling tea partiers hobbits

    At the the height of the debt ceiling battle last month, McCain read a Wall Street Journal editorial aloud on the Senate floor that slammed tea party-backed Republicans and called them "hobbits" for demanding a balanced-budget amendment to the Constitution in return for their votes to raise the debt ceiling.

    McCain : "What I said was true. It's unrealistic and unfair to the American people to tell them that we have to pass a balanced-budget amendment to the Constitution before we would act. If anyone misunderstood that then of course I would apologize. ... But it's not my fault if they misunderstood. ...

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 7:41 a.m.

    This spin will not work. The President was attempting a timely and balanced solution in light of the economy. The tea party people announced that the plan claiming a debt downgrade was no big deal. The large balanced reduction was boycotted into a small divisive problem by the dogmatic unilateral approach of the tea party. This minority uprising was planned since January based upon a Limbaugh attempt to get the President irregardless of the consequences. Noe you have the consequences.

  • Screwdriver Casa Grande, AZ
    Aug. 11, 2011 7:37 a.m.

    Ok let's try to forget that S&P rated 14 trillion of soon to be toxic debts that would tank the world economy and exasterbate the federal deficit as AAA from 2003 to 2008. Since it was the federal government that ended up BUYING those toxic loans....

    Let's try to forget they rated Leemon Brothers as AAA right up until thier bankruptcy. I'll try to forget that nobody from Wall Street or S&P went to jail for tanking the economy....

    The S&P statement was entirly political about political issues, not about our ability to pay our debts. It may have something to do with the S&P being led by conservatives like McGraw Hill.

    Let's forget that the S&P is being investigated in other countries for it's mob ties......

    The Tea Party did do this. They cheered the downgrade even. Congradulations.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 7:14 a.m.

    Nice try, Richard, but your facts are wrong from the beginning. If you want to balance the budget, everyone agrees it will take not just cuts, but increased revenue. I wonder how Mike Lee explains his votes for more spending on wasteful programs. He doesn't, only doing the will of rich special interests in Washington. Then he turns around and wants to cut programs that help the least of our society, calling for caps that have exemptions for the same wasteful spending he supports. Can't you see the hypocrisy and madness of the tea party guys?

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 7:04 a.m.

    The tea party was right to insist we live within our budget.

    The tea party was wrong to insist that the poor and middle class bare all the burden for doing so.

    And that was the rub.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Aug. 11, 2011 6:53 a.m.

    Wrong, the downgrade was solely because the downgrade was not meaningful and the tea party prevented a meaningful solution. 4 trillion with a third cuts and a third revenue increases was deemed meaningful. Three times in the notice from S&P they said the downgrade was because the two parties could not work together. Even McConnell said you couldn't get to 4 trillion without revenue increases, and who blocked all revenue increases? Tea Party downgrade pure and simple.

  • Rand FLAGSTAFF, AZ
    Aug. 11, 2011 5:32 a.m.

    "Correct so far?"

    Not entirely. Another reason S&P cited for the downgrade was the political brinksmanship in Congress and its inability to effectively govern. A good portion of that blame can be laid at the feet of conservative ideologues such as Eric Cantor, who walked out of meetings if he didn't get his way. Wouldn't even consider closing unethical corporate loopholes unless taxes were lowered elsewhere.

    Maybe some of you believe that is "principled", but to me it is childish, dangerous, and a sure sign of poor leadership. Apparently S&P wasn't too impressed with it either.

    So Mr. Smurthwaite can pick and choose his facts to make it seem like this is all the tax-and-spend liberal's fault, but the actual truth is that American society itself has built this problem and that both conservative and liberal politicians cater to it. And both conservatives and liberals are going to have to compromise to find a long term solution. The Tea Party hasn't gotten that message yet.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Aug. 11, 2011 5:03 a.m.

    Blaming the tea party for our economic problems is like blaming the guy who called 911 to report a fire for the fire! The tea party only warned politicians on both sides what will happen if THEY (politicians) don't stop their out of control spending! Now we have these same politicians pointing their fingers at everyone except themselves for the problems, they caused!

  • Screwdriver Casa Grande, AZ
    Aug. 11, 2011 1:25 a.m.

    S&P didn't tell anyone to reduce spending. They said they were worried about instability of our government.

    You know what countries have AAA ratings? Socialist countries like Canada, Denmark, France, England and Norway. Yep, all of those socialists in Europe pretty much the more socialist they are the higher thier rating.

    And no, Greece is is trouble because it's banks gambled with the people's money and lost, not because of social programs.

  • CHS 85 Sandy, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 12:30 a.m.

    No, the tea party dug in their heels and said "don't pay the bills that we have already accrued" leaving contractors, employees, beneficiaries, and everyone else who does business with the federal government high and dry. Is that the sensible approach you are talking about?

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 12:10 a.m.

    If you were to actually read S&P's report, they mention our inability to raise revenues on several occasion as one of the leading factors in their decision. Countries that spend far more than we do still have their AAA rating. It is the imbalance between revenue and spending that is the problem, not just the spending.