JustGordon | 5:53 p.m. Aug. 11, 2011 Cottonwood Heights, UT Mike...as Utah Republicans are fond of pointing out...we live in a republic
not a democracy. I guess you missed that lesson in civics class.==================== Agreed!and Mike Richards - you
beloved George W. Bush didn't win by the majority of America either.
And this is news?
The tea party leaders acknowledge they want a default and want to ruin the
economy for political reasons. They are plotting the next obstruction now.
Mountanman | 10:48 a.m. I tend to agree with your no. 3. As for the
rest, even if you had a stack of accounting diplomas a mile high, I would not
believe what you (or anyone else) has to say about the causes of big time
finance. While I didn't say anything about spending or high taxes
on the rich, I did allude to the efforts of some people who are trying to limit
and make smaller our national government. If the national government is weakened
the oppression of the people will not be controlled. I think that
the troubles across the globe are the result of governments oppressing their
people to the point where the people have nothing left to lose by rebelling. I
think the riots, the killing of their own citizens is bad for business and would
cause a lowering of the credit rating. And I think that it could
happen in America.
Mike...as Utah Republicans are fond of pointing out...we live in a republic not
a democracy. I guess you missed that lesson in civics class.59% of
the people wanting or not wanting anything doesn't count, as the people have
elected representatives for vote for them...these representatives have the only
vote that counts on creating bills and making laws...if the people don't like
how the representatives vote they can vote them out come next election. So much
for your point.
Actually procuradorfiscal:Republican drew the line in the sand by
saying that even getting rid of tax credits was a tax increase. Republicans
refused to negotiate. And now the 6 super Congress Republicans have done the
same thing!Republicans have let the World see that they are more
interested in placating Tea Baggers and "standing on principle" than
reaching any kind of reasonable compromise.Republican held America
hostage and said so in lots of sound bites. To suggest otherwise is
deceitful.Democrats never refused to decrease spending, the
compromise shows your statement to be untrue, however Democrats rightly said
more than just cutting some programs needs to happen. Republican threw a hissy
fit and the resulting Political logjam cause S & P to downgrade the US
credit rating, Because government was not very likely to function well. Nice
job, GOP!Buying votes with money, Republicans are the masters at
that, tax cuts for the rich and tax credits for corporations so they don't have
to pay any income taxes...like GE, Mobil ExxonAnd yes it still is
Bush's Fault; Junior was way dumber than his father and let Cheney lead him
astray. Mission Accomplished!
Right wing policies are a disaster. Therefore anyone who notices must be
vilified if they are to remain in power.What they dont seem to
understand is that the more hysterical they get, the more obvious the failure
becomes.From budget surpluses to budget deficits. From not being at
war to being in two wars, one of them trumped up with WMD lies so junior could
get back at Saddam's attempt on his dad's life. The war in Afghanistan with no
exit plan and no thought to how we would do things differently from the
Russians, 20yrs earlier. Not bad for a president AWOL from his reserve unit
during Viet Nam. From cheap gas to expensive gas because of mid east
instability resulting from these two wars, however W's oil friends in Houston
did not mind, neither did Cheney's friends in Halliburton. And for the icing on
the disaster cake, end any meaningful oversight on Wall Street, let the boys
with the real money create as financial disaster that $5 trillion dollars later
the world has yet to see the end of. Mission Accomplished!
T-partiers caused downgrade by refusing to pay the debt they incurred by (a)
cutting our revenue and (b)fighting 2 useless wars. T-partiers are essentially
The Down-grade can be blamed on liberals because:1. Refusing to
Compromise.2. Showing the World that Congress is out of control by
making themselves and their own Congressional leaders look like fools
[admittedly, they didn't need much help].3. Holding America hostage
- Demanding they get their way, or falsely threatening to commit National
suicide.4. Refusing to decrease spending by dropping stupid,
unsustainable spending on silly, meaningless, bloated government, just to buy
their votes with our money.I could go on, and on too!The
trademark of the Democrat Party -- Blame everything on everyone else (remember,
"It's ALL Bush's fault!").
"Will of the few"? What a laugh!Mr. Obama signed into law
the Health Care Reform Act OVER the objections of 59% of the Citizens! Mrs. Pelosi and Mr. Reid pushed that legislation through Congress over the
objections of 59% of the Citizens!Don't tell us that Mr. Obama, Mrs.
Pelosi or Mr. Reid are doing the "will" of those who elected them to
office. They are doing their OWN will, against the will of the People.It doesn't stop there; it only begins there. There is NOTHING being done in
Washington that reflects the will of the majority. The minority, with their
community organizers, their Mr. Wrights, their Bill Ayers, there Barrack Obamas
are subverting the will of the people.The "change"
promised by Mr. Obama has nothing to do with Americans or the American way of
life; it has everything to do with George Soros, Bill Ayers, Mr. Wright and the
other "friends" who put Mr. Obama in office; those who still support
him over the objections of the Citizens of America.
@Mountanman:I believe the issue can be solved without a balanced budget
amendment.Congress doesn't just pass a bill and suddenly we have a
constitutional amendment. It can take years. Do you want to wait years before
tackling the problem?Something as important as a Constitutional
amendment should be thought out and well-considered. Those tea party nuts
slipped a rider onto Boehner's bill as we approached the deadline. Probably
most congressmen didn't even read it.Have you considered the
downside of that amendment? I remember being so impressed with George Bush
spoke to the nation after 9-11 "We know who did it. It was Al Queda, and
we're gonna get them."Here is the version of that speech after
the Tea Party amendment: "We know who did it. It was Al Queda, and we
can't afford to get them this year. We might have some money next year, or the
year after that if we cut back on some road projects or the school lunch
program."An amendment is a divisive waste of time. The Tea
Party is in the way.
I wondered why mountainman kept using this "Fire" analogy? A
simple search of "fire" and "deficit" turned up the usual
suspects limbaugh, beck and hannity.Who's wonderful spin has never let the
facts get in the way of a good Fear Factor opportunity.Koolaid of
propaganda has been replaced by tea.Drink up mntman
cut, cap and balance plan never had a chance, regardless if you like it or
not.It was one sided. It was put forth to be one sided. And in the
end, there are a bunch of Republicans that would not have voted for it. Even
Newt recognized that.How about putting forth balanced legislation
that has a chance. And dont forget, the Republicans Contract for
America contained a BBA that the Republican Congress never even tried to pass.
I would bet that had the Obama/Boehner plan gone thru the downgrade would not
have happened, at least not yet.I am still amazed that in a divided
government, one side feels that it is reasonable to offer nothing and demand
that their wishes are granted.Had we had significant spending cuts
and a modest tax increase, we would have the ability to reduce the deficit and
avoid the downgrade.From what I saw, the dems and OBAMA were willing
to make those cuts.You tell me why the Obama/Boehner plan didn't
pass.One hint T-Party
Its sounds like partisan politics, which is absolute rubbish.
In a recent article entitled "KKK Snowman Spreads Holiday Hate In
Hayden", it states that a "resident is taking the opportunity to
spread a little hate". It is the spirit of this behavior that is being
used by the tea party. Their attitude of their way or we will burn down the
house is harmful to this country. They claim to love the United States, yet
their rhetoric is anything but. They claim to love the freedoms afforded by the
Constitution, yet they seek to impose the will of the few on the majority.
Civil discussion and working through issues is the better way. The tea party
seems to have lost their way on this concept.
@ Moderate. "The Tea Party blocked the firetruck from getting to the fire,
insisting that the truck be outfitted with a balanced bugdget amendment spare
tire." With all due respect: What's wrong with doing something to put
out the fire out completely with a cut, cap and balance plan instead of just
kicking the fire down the road where it will surely get larger? Do you
want our country to end up like England, Spain and Greece which are being
consumed by the same fires we are fighting? Of course not! Then lets put out
the fire and stop fooling around with it!I hope Obama runs his re-election
campainging against all the damage the tea party has done instead of his own
record Because as much as anyone else he is culpable for this fire!
@ Ultra Bob. So if we believe you, it isn't because the government is spending
way to much money, its because rich people aren't paying enough taxes, right?
Good luck selling that one! Let me see if I can help you. The reason our credit
rating got downgraded and the resulting crash of the stock market is because:#1:We have massive national debt and Obama and the Democrats have no plan
except to spend more money we don't have and run up the debt even higher and
raise taxes. #2: American employers (evil corporations to you) are facing
increased costs of hiring largely due to Obamacare looming and more and more
government regulations inposed by government.#3: For 3 years now, every
economic indicator is going south with no end in sight and Obama is clueless how
to turn it around causing a huge lack of consumer confidence.#4: Food and
energy costs inflation is double digits with no end in sight or plan to increase
oil supply. Like it or not, industry is dependant on affordable energy!#5:44 million Americans are now on food stamps, the most in our history with
no end is sight.Get it?
The spin here is mindbogglingThe left has spent irresponsibly and
mindlessly regardless of what the right didThe left made no credible
effort at debt reduction regardless of what the right didThe left had NO
plan regardless of what the right didThe left adopted NO budget
regardless of what the right didTheft left used completely unfounded scare
tactics (no SS checks) regardless of what the right didThe left expresses
hate in the name of tolerance regardless of what the right didWhatever problems the right has, the left still owns theirsThis is a
Left wing Democratic Obama spending downgrade
Mountanman, I belive your "fire" analogy should read:Everyone recognized there was a fire.Democrats and Republicans (finally)
agreed on how many firemen to send.The Tea Party blocked the firetruck
from getting to the fire, insisting that the truck be outfitted with a balanced
bugdget amendment spare tire.That's why the Tea Party is being
blamed. They were willing to block the firetruck and let the place burn to the
The downgrade of America's standing in the world, is being caused by those
people who want the government of the United States of America to be weak and
ineffective in protecting it's citizens. Like in cut, cap and balance.If the shoe fits, wear it.
Blame Bush, blame the tea party, blame corporations, blame the rich, blame SUVs,
blame everyone and everything except who is really causing our problems; over
spending politicians and our massive national debt!
@ScrewdriverAre you talking about the "right-wing" policy
advocated by Frank and instigated by Clinton to push banks into making risky
home-mortgage loans that led to the housing collapse, which led to this current
crisis?Short memory and team worship indeed
"The first thing lawmakers could have done is to have raised the debt
ceiling in a timely manner so that much of this debate had been avoided to begin
with, as it had done 60 or 70 times since 1960 without that much debate,"
said John Chambers, the head of sovereign ratings at S&P.S&P
had already said they wanted to see at least a 4 trillion dollar deal for the
next 10 years. [Which the Deomcrats proposed]But, those same Tea Party
members blamed for the fighting were fighting for a much larger cuts. They
wanted to cut much deeper into federal spending and reform entitlement programs.
[i.e., Going for broke].President Obama also wanted a larger
deal that would have included tax increases only on the wealthiest of Americans,
which Standard and Poors would have supported as well, but once again, those
same Tea Party Republican refused to compromise....Yes,
we can clearly blame the Tea Partiers - based on the S&P themselves.(Source...ironically - FoxNews)
Tough fighting a backlash started by tea party advocates with old spin.
Even though I shouldn't be, I'm still amazed at the letters to this newspaper
that evidence such an appalling lack of understanding of economics. Of course,
the Tea Party program for destroying the country can't even be called economics.
It's really just bad arithmetic. There is no way on earth we can balance our
budget by only cutting spending. What, Richard, are we going to cut to shave
over a trillion dollars from our annual spending?But let me see if I
understand this correctly. We can't afford to close corporate tax loopholes when
profits have been at record levels, even in the midst of the "Great
Recession." We can't afford to tax the super-rich, even when CEO pay went
up 23 percent from 2009 to 2010. We can't raise tax rates when Warren Buffett's
tax rate is lower than the cleaning lady's. We can't afford to raise taxes when
a hedge fund manager's take-home pay was $5 billion last year, and he's not a
"job creator." What the Tea Party does not understand is
that their movement is not very original or independent. It is simply another
program that benefits large corporations and Wall Street.
The Down-grade can be blamed on the Tea Party because:1. Refusing to
Compromise [Something required in Non-Totalitarian regimes].2.
Showing the World that Congress is out of control by making their own
Congressional leader [Speaker John Boehner] look like a fool.3.
Holding America hostage - Demanding they get their way, or commit National
suicide.4. Refusing to increase revenues by dropping stupid tax
breaks on the Uber-Rich and Wealthy [who could still get those tax breaks - if
only they re-invested their income back into the economy or grew their
businesses.]I could go on, and on....but jumping up and down - even
claiming "Victory!" in the Federal Budget debates -- and then when
reality kicks in and things turn negative, so they turn right around denying
they were they cause of the down grade is completely ridiculous!Denialism - (remember the Birthers)The trademark of the Tea Party.
We are still IN the FAILURE of right wing policies goldfish. "Hi my name's
Dora. Have we met?"The right wing strategy is to take advantage
of short memories and team worship mentalities to blame someone else for thier
John Chambers, the head of sovereign ratings at S&P, told CNN that the
political brinkmanship over the debt ceiling proved to be a key issue, with
"the U.S. government getting to the last day before they had
cash-management problems." It wasn't the Democrats who forced
this issue to the last day. It wasn't the Democrats that threatened default.
This was regarding a budget Congress had already approved. Using default as a
bargaining chip was the Tea Party Republican's business.
It's ironic that Senator Kerry, who has been in Congress for decades, blames
this debt mess that has been building for decades, on the Tea Party influence
that is barely two years old.
RandEric Cantor had had enough of this president and his unrelenting
desire to bring down America. Who can blame him when one looks at the way he
was raised, the people who have influenced him all his life. Its a wonder he is
even able to get up in the morning. BTW, didn't the 'anointed one' walk out of
another meeting before Cantor? why did you fail to mention that?
To Counter Intelligence | 6:51 a.m. Aug. 11, 2011 And this is even
more true:Far right wing policies are a disasterTherefore anyone who
notices must be vilified if they are to remain in powerWhat they
dont seem to understand is that the more hysterical they get, the more obvious
the failure becomes.
You may not have seen McCain go balistic on the Tea Party. Was that glossed over
on Faux News?McCain wont apologize for calling tea partiers
hobbitsAt the the height of the debt ceiling battle last month,
McCain read a Wall Street Journal editorial aloud on the Senate floor that
slammed tea party-backed Republicans and called them "hobbits" for
demanding a balanced-budget amendment to the Constitution in return for their
votes to raise the debt ceiling. McCain : "What I said was
true. It's unrealistic and unfair to the American people to tell them that we
have to pass a balanced-budget amendment to the Constitution before we would
act. If anyone misunderstood that then of course I would apologize. ... But it's
not my fault if they misunderstood. ...
This spin will not work. The President was attempting a timely and balanced
solution in light of the economy. The tea party people announced that the plan
claiming a debt downgrade was no big deal. The large balanced reduction was
boycotted into a small divisive problem by the dogmatic unilateral approach of
the tea party. This minority uprising was planned since January based upon a
Limbaugh attempt to get the President irregardless of the consequences. Noe you
have the consequences.
Ok let's try to forget that S&P rated 14 trillion of soon to be toxic debts
that would tank the world economy and exasterbate the federal deficit as AAA
from 2003 to 2008. Since it was the federal government that ended up BUYING
those toxic loans....Let's try to forget they rated Leemon Brothers
as AAA right up until thier bankruptcy. I'll try to forget that nobody from Wall
Street or S&P went to jail for tanking the economy....The
S&P statement was entirly political about political issues, not about our
ability to pay our debts. It may have something to do with the S&P being led
by conservatives like McGraw Hill. Let's forget that the S&P is
being investigated in other countries for it's mob ties......The Tea
Party did do this. They cheered the downgrade even. Congradulations.
Nice try, Richard, but your facts are wrong from the beginning. If you want to
balance the budget, everyone agrees it will take not just cuts, but increased
revenue. I wonder how Mike Lee explains his votes for more spending on wasteful
programs. He doesn't, only doing the will of rich special interests in
Washington. Then he turns around and wants to cut programs that help the least
of our society, calling for caps that have exemptions for the same wasteful
spending he supports. Can't you see the hypocrisy and madness of the tea party
The tea party was right to insist we live within our budget.The tea
party was wrong to insist that the poor and middle class bare all the burden for
doing so.And that was the rub.
Wrong, the downgrade was solely because the downgrade was not meaningful and the
tea party prevented a meaningful solution. 4 trillion with a third cuts and a
third revenue increases was deemed meaningful. Three times in the notice from
S&P they said the downgrade was because the two parties could not work
together. Even McConnell said you couldn't get to 4 trillion without revenue
increases, and who blocked all revenue increases? Tea Party downgrade pure and
"Correct so far?"Not entirely. Another reason S&P
cited for the downgrade was the political brinksmanship in Congress and its
inability to effectively govern. A good portion of that blame can be laid at the
feet of conservative ideologues such as Eric Cantor, who walked out of meetings
if he didn't get his way. Wouldn't even consider closing unethical corporate
loopholes unless taxes were lowered elsewhere. Maybe some of you
believe that is "principled", but to me it is childish, dangerous, and
a sure sign of poor leadership. Apparently S&P wasn't too impressed with it
either. So Mr. Smurthwaite can pick and choose his facts to make it
seem like this is all the tax-and-spend liberal's fault, but the actual truth is
that American society itself has built this problem and that both conservative
and liberal politicians cater to it. And both conservatives and liberals are
going to have to compromise to find a long term solution. The Tea Party hasn't
gotten that message yet.
Blaming the tea party for our economic problems is like blaming the guy who
called 911 to report a fire for the fire! The tea party only warned politicians
on both sides what will happen if THEY (politicians) don't stop their out of
control spending! Now we have these same politicians pointing their fingers at
everyone except themselves for the problems, they caused!
S&P didn't tell anyone to reduce spending. They said they were worried about
instability of our government. You know what countries have AAA
ratings? Socialist countries like Canada, Denmark, France, England and Norway.
Yep, all of those socialists in Europe pretty much the more socialist they are
the higher thier rating.And no, Greece is is trouble because it's
banks gambled with the people's money and lost, not because of social programs.
No, the tea party dug in their heels and said "don't pay the bills that we
have already accrued" leaving contractors, employees, beneficiaries, and
everyone else who does business with the federal government high and dry. Is
that the sensible approach you are talking about?
If you were to actually read S&P's report, they mention our inability to
raise revenues on several occasion as one of the leading factors in their
decision. Countries that spend far more than we do still have their AAA rating.
It is the imbalance between revenue and spending that is the problem, not just