Comments about ‘FAIR: Wordprint analysis and the Book of Mormon’

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Published: Monday, Aug. 8 2011 11:16 a.m. MDT

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sharrona
layton, UT

TheProudDuck ,I see the notion being floated that the fact that many former Mormons go out of their way to criticize the Church, is evidence that the Church must be true.
I prayed for wisdom studied the evidence the BoM and left the Church. i.e,the great Jehovah(YHWH )the eternal judge Moroni 10:34.

From[false] LDS revelation, we learn that Jehovah is the English form of the actual name by which the Lord Jesus was known ANCIETLY (D&C 110:3 ,Jehovah appears to JS), Abra 2:8 ,My is name is Jehovah) 788 Mormon Doctrine.
s/b YHWH, JS was unaware of the poor KJV and didnt know the Personal name of God(LORD)YHWH.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under Gods curse.(Galatians 1:8)

Ernest T. Bass
Bountiful, UT

FAIR is to objective research as fish is to mountain climbing.

donn
layton, UT

RE: TheProudDuck ,I see the notion being floated that the fact that many former Mormons go out of their way to criticize the Church, is evidence that the Church must be true.I prayed for wisdom studied the evidence the BoM and left the Church. i.e,the great Jehovah(YHWH )the eternal judge Moroni 10:34.
From[false] LDS revelation, we learn that Jehovah is the English form of the actual name by which the Lord Jesus was known ANCIETLY (D&C 110:3 ,Jehovah appears to JS), Abra 2:8 ,My is name is Jehovah) 788 Mormon Doctrine.s/b YHWH, JS was unaware of the poor KJV and didnt know the Personal name of God(LORD)YHWH.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under Gods curse.(Galatians 1:8)

Bluto
Sandy, UT

@Ernest

I've caught many a fish while Mountain Climbing.
Lots of lakes and streams up there Ernie!

Try again.

mta3000
Spanish Fork, UT

Anyone who claims that Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Smith or any of their contemporaries wrote the Book of Mormon has to account for the book's Semitic complexity spoken of recently by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland.

For example, Chiasmus, an intricate Hebraic parallel form, wasn't even identified in the Bible by Western scholars until 1854, 24 years after the pulication of Book of Mormon, with the publication of John Forbes' book "The Symmetrical Structure of Scripture". Yet, as John Welch illustrates in his 1969 article "Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon", elaborate chiastic forms are employed by Book of Mormon authors, some chiasms covering entire chapters. If it was written by Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdrey, Joseph Smith, or whoever, they would have had to have been on the cutting edge of Hebrew literary scholarship -- a pretty amazing feat for a preacher, a schoolteacher or a farm boy.

Sarah Nichole
West Jordan, UT

I have to say, I'm a little confused by the choices of possible authors this study chose. While a gifted writer in his own right, Parley P. Pratt didn't meet Joseph Smith until months after the Book of Mormon was printed. Sidney Rigdon, the most common alternate author listed in these types of studies, didn't meet him for several years after the book was published. Oliver Cowdery, seemingly the most logical choice, usually comes in toward the end of the list of possible candidates in word print studies. Study after study has shown that his authorship isn't likely at all.

Really, if you're trying to disprove the divine origins of the Book of Mormon, wouldn't Joseph Smith be the top choice of author? Why wasn't he even on the list?

defibman
Syracuse, UT

I have all the evidence I need about the BoM. It's truth flows through me as if it were liquid surity. I hear what others say, I read what others think, but their words are their's and only their's.

Mc
West Jordan, UT

@full disclosure
I don't know what path you think I'm on or what Pandora's box I've opened.

If you have read the works of credible LDS scholars and authors that's great, I have, too. Have you also read the Book of Mormon objectively? If you have read the research and scholarly works that show there is evidence of things in the Book of Mormon and have read the Book of Mormon itself and you do not believe it's true, then you have made my point. It really doesn't matter what evidence there is one way or the other. People will believe what they want to believe or what they have received a spiritual witness of.

I have received a spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon and I desire to believe. No one should rely on histories or human research to establish their faith or allow it to destroy their faith. History is subjective and no historian is totally without bias. "Truth" is presented through the perspective of imperfect people who most often do not admit their bias.

If you really want to find truth, God is the only source, the only way to really know.

tyndale1
Pullman, WA

The Book of Mormon is worthy of our consideration. Simply powerful. How wonderful to read posts here from well meaning individuals from across the country. Finding and embracing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ is definately worth your attention.

Perhaps some key points of the Church of Jesus Christ as restored through the prophet Joseph Smith might add light for those interested. Please excuse any semantical differences here and try to understand.

The 14 million members of the LDS Church help minister in this Church which functions with lay ministry. We receive no financial remuneration, and do so happily. We pay tithes and offerings to build chapels, temples and schools and provide extensively for the poor and needy.

We believe in and worship Jesus Christ as our master, savior and redeemer. We daily strive to follow Him in all our actions and deeds. We believe and revere the Holy Bible as the word of God recorded for our guidance and study. The Book of Mormon adds credence to the Bible, and harmoniously compliments the Bible to further testify of Jesus Christ. To comprehend it one must study and ponder it. It changed my heart. I recommend it to you.

Ernest T. Bass
Bountiful, UT

bluto:
You were fishing in water. You weren't climbing mountains and fish certainly weren't.

tyndale1
Pullman, WA

The proof is more in the pudding than it is in how many different explanations can be authored and regurgitated for other possible authors, creators, etc. The proof is in the simplicity of the Mormon religion, and at the same time, in their earth-shattering complexity and leadership.

Who, at age 14 says they have seen God? Young Joseph Smith did. Gutsy move. But wait. He didn't claim to just see God but also Jesus Christ standing on the right hand of God. That broke so many stereotypes because nowhere in the world were people thinking God and Jesus Christ were separate and distinct individuals in human form. No one had realized that Jesus was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones. Brilliant.

Who, at 17, would say that the world would inquire after his name and not only revere him but say the most vicious things about him to discredit him? Joseph Smith did. Unheard of, yet he did it and today we still follow this mantra.

Who at 23 would have the audacity to introduce a 500 page book of scripture to the world complimenting the Bible? He did. The proof is right there. Examine it.

TheProudDuck
Newport Beach, CA

Re: Elder Holland's "teeming with Semitic complexity" -- what would you expect of a book written by a young man whose primary literary influence was the Hebrew Bible? And who might have been consciously striving to imitate its style?

A choice to believe in the Book of Mormon must be based on personal revelation, not second-rate logic. Unfortunately, much if not most of Book of Mormon apologetic logic is second-rate. Chiasmus, for instance, is a much more widespread literary technique than apologists suggest. It was common in early American literature. I wrote a paper once demonstrating the use of chiasmus in Federalist No. 46, by James Madison.

christoph
Brigham City, UT

See article today on: Incivility turning more workplaces 'toxic'. Our increasingly secular nation is becoming rude and mean. We can't always tell if somebody has faith, but there are many signs that start popping up when they lack it.

@Charles
the greater outdoors, UT

===

Dear Ranchhand: Mc answered your question quite eloquently before you even asked it while you completely sidestepped the question posed by Mc.

Go back and read the comment by Mc at 6:29pm yesterday, it's on page 2. I agree with the comments. I won't regret one aspect of my life living the gospel according to the LDS church.

The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches me that there are absolutes in life and that moral relativity is wrong. There is a right way and a wrong way.

You have chosen to leave the LDS church and cling to your homosexuality. No problem, your choice. As I tell my children though, you don't get to choose the consequences of your choices.

Homosexuality isn't marriage as you try to post in every single post you put forward no matter the topic of the letter. The LDS leaders you hate are doing what Christ and His apostles did, stand up to the unrighteousness and declare eternal truths.

Your brother probably chastised you for your homosexuality and antagonism towards your former church. Good for him!

Your back-turning comment was hilarious considering your choice in relationship. Hilarious!

Vanka
Provo, UT

scoley82 writes:

"I have read the Book of Mormon 4 times. Most critics I find peruse the book and never read it and are not sincere in finding the truth and the veracity of the book... If you are sincere and really want to find the truth about this book, you need to read it without insincere motives. If you do this and follow the precepts of this book, your life will be greatly blessed and your life will never be the same."

I have sincerely, with "real intent", read, studied, prayed about, fasted, memorized sections, and on and on for over 20 years (my wife is LDS) about the Book of Mormon. I have read it probably 10 times through.

As a result of my studies, I have never received any "blessings" or spiritual, intellectual, or other kind of "witness" that the Book of Mormon is true, accurate, inspiring, or miraculous in any way whatsoever.

Generally speaking, it is no different in content, style, literary prowess, inspirational mumbo jumbo than any other religious book, and far poorer than many of them.

The main ideas of Mormonism are not even found in the BOM.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

Weber: I have told you that the only thing that is at all funeral texts are the fascimilles shown in the Book of Abraham. However, as you well know we do not have all of the extents that Joseph Smith had. Much was burned in the Chicago fire. You still refuse to accept that.

Further, evidence of this is that there is eyewitness accounts of what Joseph Smith had and none of that is even remotely close to what the Church of Jesus Christ has today. Again you are going strickly on what critics have to say except you deny the eyewitness reports.

Secondly, there are things in these facismilles that are not in others therefore, to categorically dispell it as other than the funeral texts is completely naive especially with someone who wishes NOT to believe.

There is proof that what is there and what has been recorded is different than what some critics report. There is evidence to the contrary of what is stated. Yes, the funeral texts is there. However, you must take the whole thing not just the one part. The whole papyri is NOT present. That is a fact.

full disclosure
Providence, UT

@MC- I have read the Book of Mormon objectively and found more questions than answers. I have also compared it to Ethan Smiths View of the Hebrews, Soloman Spauldings "Manuscript Story", the Bible, and Joseph Smiths personal stories prior to his numerous different accounts of the First Vision.
I do believe you have had spiritual or emotional experiences that have given you a belief that you are comfortable with. I'm not trying to discount or sway your testimony. the best thing that you said and you are correct,

"People will believe what they want to believe or what they have received a spiritual witness of." My brother recieved a spiritual witness of the church that he attends. It doesn't have to be true to believe, it's their desire, regardless if it is true or not. This is no knock but I know many people that believe because of the hope that it offers.

Weber State Graduate
Clearfield, UT

"I have told you that the only thing that is at all funeral texts are the fascimilles shown in the Book of Abraham."

Bill...you are simply incorrect. But by your admission above, you have unwittingly implicated Joseph Smith as misrepresenting the facts.

Facsimile No. 1 does not portray Abraham fastened to an altar with the idolatrous priest of Elkenah attempting to sacrifice him. Instead, it represents the god Anubis (who should have a jackal's head) bending over a mummy effecting the resurrection of Osiris.

Facsimile No. 2 does not represent God revealing the grand Key-words of the Holy Priesthood. Rather, its the Hypocephalus of Sheshonq which ancient Egyptians place under the heads of their dead to magically protect the deceased.

Facsimile No. 3 does not portray Abraham in the court of Pharaoh reasoning upon the principles of Astronomy. Instead, it's a typical scene from the Egyptian Book of the Dead in which the deceased person for whom the scroll was made is presented before the Egyptian god, Osiris.

These facts alone are incredibly damaging to Joseph Smith's assertions. What does this say about his claim to special translation ability?

Maryquilter
Farmington, UT

To LValfre: If prophets of God proved every single thing about scriptures to us then there would be no need for faith, personal study, personal revelation, nor provide us with opportunities for growth.

To Vanka: In response to your parable-- Joseph showed the plates which the BOM was written on to 8 witness. Even though some of those men eventually left the church, they never denied their testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Joseph did not ask them to pay him money to see the plates nor force them to obey him as if he were God himself. He also never said that lack of faith in the BOM would mean they would be shunned from the community nor cause them to perish in damnation for eternity. Please don't make assertions which are not factually based.

JM
Lehi, UT

For those who might not know, most of these comments are by a few professional anti-Mormon individuals with many DN accounts.
Some are gay activists, others are simply the fallen trying to justify why they so easily ran "after only a few weeks" of reading anti-Mormon propaganda on the internet.

These individuals now know they were led away by misinformation, even outright lies, but, interestingly, they are now more than willing to lie to lead others astray.

Some LDS have answered all questions repeatedly (check past MT articles including Mike Ash, comments etc) including:

The claims to revelations and failed prayers tactic, fallen theories, invention of absent libraries (where JS got Nahom), forged cities (NY "town Alma"), YHVH, JST VS MS, (Augustine etc says verses were removed by "enemies of Christ"), discovered anachronisms (steel, steeled bows, horses, swords, glass, windows, roads cast "up", etc etc etc), Bountiful, customs, chiasmus, the miraculously detailed relationship between Indigenous American religious symbolism and Middle Eastern (including Baal), miraculously predictive geography, etc etc etc etc.

These have had signs enough, but seem to be bound in chains too tight for freeing, might not hurt to try, but don't trust them : ) on ANYTHING!! ; )

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