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Comments about ‘FAIR: Wordprint analysis and the Book of Mormon’

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Published: Monday, Aug. 8 2011 11:16 a.m. MDT

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sharrona
layton, UT

panamadesnews said, he who wouldn't listen, INVESTIGATE,and find out for himself, or the man who listened to God and an angel and followed their counsel.

A Marvelous work and wonder. (Isaiah 29:14,JST) But the book(BoM) shall be delivered unto a man(JS),verse 16by the power of Christverse 17,three witnesses, verse 19,many witnesses[11] as seemeth good.
Not found in the Greek Septuagint(Apostles Bible),Dead Sea(Isaiah) Scrolls.

That seer his name shall be called Joseph(Smith),and it shall be after the name of his father. (JST 50:33)? JS prophecies himself.

Faith is only as good as the object of faith. I prayed studied the Bible and left the Church.

Jim
Mesa, Az

Oh the vainess and foolishness of man, for when he is learned he thinks that he is wise. If you want to know who the author of the Book of Mormon is, try reading Moroni 10:3-5.....if you are sincere, you will find out if you are not sincere, then enjoy the view from the great and spacious building

JSB
Sugar City, ID

When I was in junior high, a girl told me the Book of Mormon teaches that the Indians came to America in submarines! On my mission I was told by a lady in England that her grandmother was held captive in the Mormon temple in SLC and finally escaped by jumping from a window into the Great Salt Lake and swimming to safety! I went to a showing of "The God Makers" and after respectfully pointing out some of the obvious flaws, the preacher asked me to leave because I was "a trouble maker!" I have heard this irrational anti Mormon propaganda ever all my life and all it has done for me is to reinforce my testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The anti Mormons might claim to be scholars and "Christians" but their methods reveal the being in whom they really place their trust.

christoph
Brigham City, UT

Joggle---you are absolutely correct that in Europe and the USA and all other wealthy countries and continents----secularism is on the rise; godlessness is increasing-----nobody can say you are wrong. But is it the best path to raise the next generation of people? For 2,000 years Christianity (whose people are not perfect) has passed on tradition and music and scripture and morality and dance and culture. Live for the now or look to the next 50 years? Which is more admirable? I am as selfish as the next person but appreciate anyone who tries to get me to think decades ahead and to not just think of today. When riots or gangs or poverty breaks out, which group of people can best deal with it? Religious people turn to prayer, fasting and community instead of anger and rioting and theft. For an atheist to never rob, riot or even swear at another person, nor get angry (things religions deal with---because even swearing is harmful to society----subtle form of hate)--that is admirable and should be rewarded---but more rare a lifestyle for people who just live for today.

Mc
West Jordan, UT

If someone doesn't want to believe no amount of evidence of the Book of Mormon will convince them to believe. It is a waste of time to try to convince them.

It is also a waste of their time to try to convince me that there is any validity to the "evidence" that they present against it.

What both sides hope is to influence those who sit on the fence, unsure of their feelings one way or another, who look for evidence to help them decide. Those people need to know that there is much evidence to support the Book of Mormon and that the evidence against it is at best questionable. But most of all they need to know that actually reading the book and praying about it is the only real way to know the truth.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

Mc says:

"How will those who have left the Church feel if they find out that what they rejected is really true? "

I say:

How will those who devoted their lives to the lds church feel if they find out that what they devoted their lives to was really false?

A lot of you ask why many people who left the church "can't leave it alone".

One answer is that our families are heavily submerged in the culture and constantly push it back at us. Had you read an email I recently received from my brother you would have been appalled.

Another is that the lds church won't leave us alone and is in fact, actively engaged in a campaign to deny equal treatment under the law from many of us. That is one reason to pay particular attention to the acts of lds leaders. We can't turn our backs or we may end up with something sticking out of them.

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

TJ - Your comment "Every time I read about another attempt to dis-prove anything about the LDS church it just strengthens my belief. If it were not divine, Satan wouldn't be working so hard using dupes to prove it wrong."

You live in the bubble called Utah, so you may not know that there are anti-catholics, anti-muslims, anti-jehovas witnesses, etc. To think that any opposition equals truth is silly. Everything has at least two sides, 2 stories, 2 views, yes even mormonism. I know, hard to fathom right? Mormonism has a history that the modern church tries to hide. The temple changes over time, the modern church editing its history, the changes to the word of wisdom as god revealed it to Joseph Smith, mountain meadows massacre, and much much more. You can't simply disregard these things. If you believe the church that is fine, but you can't simply say it is true because people have a differing opinion of it and fight against it. It simply doesn't make sense.

LValfre
CHICAGO, IL

You can't argue this case. Faith is simply that ... blind faith. Doesn't matter how much logic or rationale you throw behind it, believer's are going to hold blind faith, follow the sheep every Sunday to church, be the cattle throughout the week following their callings and other services, and of course ... give that money. Funny how a supreme, all perfect being always needs money? Hmmm ... perhaps it's the men behind it ... hmmm ... i ponder with my rationale, logical, free thinking mind. Can't help myself from pondering. "When the brethren speaketh, the thinking is done" ... not for me .... i'm not that simple minded.

moniker lewinsky
Taylorsville, UT

WHAT??? FAIR refuted the Solomon Spalding theory? Shocking! I thought FAIR existed to get down to the truthfulness of the matter and not to defend the church at any cost. LOL. Well, at least a bunch of people googled Spalding's name after Jeff Holland tearfully testified of the book's truth. Isn't google a gem?

Whos Life RU Living?
Ogden, UT

"But is it the best path to raise the next generation of people?"

Religion is dangerous in some aspects. For example many religious people believe in some sort of second coming. With the idea of a second coming on peoples' minds, many feel that it is not necessary to take care of the world because a savior will come and fix the world anyway. Religions want to grow and overtake the world so they command couples to multiply and replenish, which result in an ever increasing rate of consumption.

Atheists and Agnostics would be more concerned with our well being right now! These people might be more concerned with the welfare of our decendants unlike religious people because they are "promised" that a savior is coming and will be in his circle of never ending happiness of funny jokes.

called2serve249
PROVO, UT

Wait wait wait...These comments seem to suggest that we all still disagree about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Egads! This cannot be!

Look, we can bicker all day long about what we believe and what we don't. I have to agree with Brahmabull, that each man will decide for himself based on his personal experience and investigation. I tend to believe it is true based on my investigation and personal experience. He does not. I guarantee we haven't all studied the same things or experienced the same thing. My personal opinion is that we are too concerned with -who- is right rather than -what- is right. No amount of science is going to change my efforts to love my fellowman and serve the Lord.

Besides, there are much more important things going on in this world that demand our attention. Perhaps we'd be better to focus on them rather than attempting to destroy the faith of others. Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

LValfre
CHICAGO, IL

It's not about destroying the faith, the problem is the faith destroys your individuality. The more man puts into god, the less he retains of himself.

Zoniezoobie
Mesa, AZ

It could all end tomorrow, and where would I be? Does life go on or will it be the end of me? Seems a bit unfair to think that all I've learned and done
belongs to no one. Why should I cherish living if there's no so called plan?
Why, I would have no future if it were left to man. I can't believe that we just happened and don't know what for. There must be more. Why should I trust in a love that I can't have forever? Does it seem right to live a game of take-away? Should I want for children if there isn't any more for them to live for? Maybe I'm a pessimist - then maybe I'm not. One thing that I'd like to know is what I've got. I don't want a miracle or to see you in the air, but are you up there?

full disclosure
Providence, UT

@Clark Hippo- Would you refer to LDS authors as "critics" of the church if they tell a story different than the one the LDS church teaches or the apologists tell? I believe that it is important that faith and truth should be in harmony and co-exist. Truth is vital and one that apologists groups have little regard for.
Fair and Farms have their conclusion and then try to find the most meaningless information to support their conclusion without looking at what others have carefully researched and said about the subject. Peer review would be most helpful to the church and might even add some amount of credibility. The problem is that apologist's should not and cannot be trusted to be without an agenda. Readers of articles like this believe that is something that has been written scientifically and without bias when it has not. You have to agree that readers who take the position that what is written here is true and consider all other research invalid regardless of how documented those sources are. Not all writers outside of apologist's are trying to prove the church wrong. They are trying to live by a higher standard.

Jiggle
Clearfield, UT

@panamadesnews
I'm always amazed that people still believe in Satan...the devil...or whatever you want to call that "representation" of evil as a real entity and use it as a veiled insinuation that you are evil....or going to hell simply because you find it impossible to believe in God. I do not oppose God; I oppose religion. There's a difference.

@A voice of Reason
I agree that nothing definitively 100% provable and irrefutable including both religion and atheism. Any belief can be violent. I responded to JM's use of the words "fighting against" when I personally would simply use the word "disagree". We all have a right to disagree with something and present opposing information. Religion presents its information continuously. Opposing information gives a more complete picture of the subject. Why not present it? Nobody is compelled to embrace or reject it. That's a choice.

LValfre
CHICAGO, IL

@Jiggle
"Nobody is compelled to embrace or reject it. That's a choice. "

Not true. Young children born and raised LDS (or any denomination/religion) don't have that choice. Many are stuck for life. Children are very easily influenced. Just take a look at how many kids mindlessly spill testimonials of Joseph Smith and haven't a clue about his real history, many wives, and even very young ones.

Mormoncowboy
Provo, Ut

Jiggle:

One of the lingering questions that I had for years, that ultimately contributed to my doubt over religion, was directly related to "Satan" and how such a being can operate. How does he tempt, for example? How does he decieve? And if we accept that a supernatural being who disguises evil for good, and good for eveil - using supernatural methods - doesn't that invalidate any assurance of faith? The religious will argue that God reveals the truth to us, but they cannot explain how they are able to objectively decipher the temptings of Satan from the spirit of God or the Holy Ghost. They will assert the distinctions, yet they cannot provide any real objective answers as to how they distinguish. For example, if we accept section 123: 12-13, then we must ask, how do we know that we ourselves are not just "blinded by subtle craftiness". If we accept that others are mistaken about their religious experiences, by supernatural means, why are we so different? It requires circular logic to get around that. Ultimately this line of belief (section 123) invalidates itself, and all religious epistemology.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

"Opposing information gives a more complete picture of the subject. Why not present it? Nobody is compelled to embrace or reject it. That's a choice."

There is a a certain paradigm in the philosophical world is very flawed- that one's beliefs must be able to "withstand scrutiny". There is merit here- If I am debating whether the LDS Church is possibly a viable source of truth, or 'the' source, etc. then yes, I can question whatever I want.

But opposing views isn't questioning. It isn't learning. It isn't a method of growth, but is inherently a destructive approach.

Opposing = against. Those who say 'but I'm not convinced, I'm not sure... how can that work?' truly want to learn. Those who say 'but your wrong, Joseph Smith lied, etc.' offer no room for growth.

--

I have said this, 'If a belief must withstand scrutiny, so must this one' - It's no different than saying "No argument is perfect, including my own". You will never be able to prove your view right or my view wrong.

Under that premise, it is better to live life, building on our own beliefs, not fighting each other's as nothing comes from it but destruction.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

To our member critics: You twist the so called changes to your favor thus ignoring further revelation pertaining to them. This is true pertaining to the changes in the temple ordinances, the Word of Wisdom and others. I will not go into the changes in the temple because this is neither the place nor the time to do so. I suggest you talk to your Bishop and Stake President. If that doesn't satisfy you nothing will but direct word from our Heavenly Father, thus you fail to sustain these men as your leaders,

The Word of Wisdom they say was changed pertains to beer and meat. Yet, again the either misinterpret or ignore further revelation pertaining to them. Science has proven that one 12 ounce beer at 5% or better is equal to one shot of whiskey. Meat is only to be used sparingly and only in winter. The actual scripture states, "And it is pleasing unto me that they SHOULD NOT be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." In other words they are for our use but sparingly. Sparingly is really a grey area so that is up to the individual.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

They say the Church glosses over its history, yet the Church has it in its Ensign, the Institute Classes and even on the internet. It is there if you care to look for it. Yet, they want us to believe it isn't that it is whitewashed which is totally false. They say this because of Mountain Meadows Massacre yet the authors of a book put out in 2008 has not be debunked at all and is one of the most precise books of what transpired there. This also includes the so called involvement of Brigham Young which it clearly shows he had no part in at all.

So, then they go to the Book of Abraham but the apologists and even Church Leaders have all stated the facts around this. Again they want us to believe them over those the LORD has appointed to be his mouth pieces. They disagree with them and say it is logical to do so. They are here to help the Church, not to destroy it but that is just a way of saying they don't trust the leadership and do not sustain the Prophets, Seers and Revelators.

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