This LDS mother of 7 has encouraged all her children to carry a donor card. My
youngest son did specify that I make sure he's dead first.
@voice of reasonI did miss understand your point my apologies. I
agree it is a very complicated but also fascinating debate with no one
"right" way to view it. Every answer leads to another cascade of
questions. I have been involved in the transplant process and have had the
opportunity a few times (for less then I wish) to be in on discussions about
the medical ethics of recommending or not recommending patients for transplant.
anyway thanks for the civil response i wish there was more opportunity on
threads like this to discuss such things when you finally find some one willing
to be civil.
George, I think you misunderstood my comment. I said nothing about favoring such
a system, but only that such a system would be possible- the only reason I said
this was to move to what I believe was the real moral question involved...
"can one morally justify placing conditions?", rather than "how
could we"?If you understood that but and simply question the
possibility of it, then it technically wouldn't be hard at all. People decide
beforehand if they want to be resuscitated. They could before hand regarding
certain criteria for an organ recipient.Again, I'm not arguing one
way or the other... It's simply an interesting moral 'thought experiment' or
moral problem, etc. I love philosophy and ethics, thus my interest.--Person 1) a convinced rapist or murderer or did not get life
imprisonment, has no family, and is now out of prison.Person 2) a
father of 12 who's wife has never worked and losing him could do serious damage
to the family.Now, I'm not saying anyone has more worth, or more
right to life- I'm asking this, would you have a preference to receive a
life-saving organ?Simply an interesting debate, that's all.
@a voice of reason and exactly how would that system work?
@drannblakeracySo maybe people that need transplants really just need to
spend more time with a puppy out in nature Ann. So Ann I cannot seem to find you
anywhere on DOPL is there any particular reason you have never got licensed?
Maybe because your views are so far outside the mainstream of psychology?
@drannblaketracyfrankly your comment is complete nonsense and you know it.
I worked in emgerency rooms for several years in Utah and New York. I can tell
anyone that actually wants the truth that Organ donation is the farthest thing
from the doctors mind when someone rolls into the ER. It is only after the
person has died or after given instruction to stop interventions that donation
ever enters into the conversation and it most often does not come from the
doctor. kaindra is also right that there are strict rules around who is eligible
for a transplant because they are so scarce and the doctors that preform the
removal of the organs have no control or even say where those organs go. Doctors
and hospitals receive no money for harvesting donations and such a blatant lie
by the "Dr." should tell yo all you need to know about her comments.
Such comments would be simply laughable if it where not for the severe
consequences of spreading such serious lies.
@ DrAnnBlakeTracy: There is no money in transplants - especially not for the ER
doctor. Where did the son shoot himself? What were the real
chances of recovery?And any parent dealing with what this father
supposedly was dealing with who remains "calm and rational," doesn't
deserve the title of father.If the doctor was concerned with organ
donation, it was because the kid was dead.Sorry, but I call crap on
I deal with families dealing with suicide and murder/suicide every day. So I run
across families dealing with these situations regularly and have heard absolute
horror stories. One father whose only son on Prozac shot himself in their
basement. The father rushed to his side and rode to the hospital with him. Once
there the doctor had organ donation on his mind (I have heard there is a lot of
money in these transplants.) so instead of working to save this man's son he
wanted to give him a shot to preserve the organs for donation. The father is a
very calm and rational man, well educated, not easily upset and not active in
any religion. His son was an amazing kid with great potential. But as the father
begged him to work on saving his son's life the doctor threw this father against
the wall telling him they had little time to save the organs for donation.
Am I an organ donor? NO and NEVER will be! Why doesn't medicine learn to
repair people's organs instead of replacing them or teach more about the laws of
health so people learn how to preserve their organs?
A Scientist:You stated, :DN Editorial Staff, You seriously published
the comment by A Voice of Reason, but not mine?"I don't know
what you initially tried posting, but I mean you no disrespect; my comment was
based entirely on reason. Whether you find what I said illogical or not, it was
not rude to you, but merely offered a justification for the earlier comment from
CougarKeith.---"You cannot place conditions upon it
anymore than you can place conditions on the gift of life you give to your own
children."The logic you provided is that we have no choice.
This is wrong. There could exist a system where people would decide who gets
what beforehand.I just wanted to make that correction as I'm sure
you meant to say that 'it wouldn't be moral to place conditions on the gift of
life'.Is that a fair restatement of your view?If so, for
an effective argument you would have to provide reason to show why birth and
organ donation relate in a way that supports your conclusion. As I and probably
others might believe they differ, it isn't convincing. I need the logic.
@ Cougar Keith and A voice of Reason: Individuals who are actively using drugs
or who are using alcohol to excess are not placed on organ donation lists.
There are a great many requirements that must be met in order for someone to be
eligible to be an organ recipient.Additionally, great care is made
to ensure that the life of the organ donor is protected. Organs are not
harvested until the donor has been declared dead and the life saving
interventions are not stopped until there is no chance of recovery or until the
family (or an advance directive) says no more interventions should occur.As for extreme risks, that would depend on how you define "extreme
risk" and how much you think accepting an organ places a person under the
control of others. Should an organ recipient be prohibited from skiing or
snowboarding? Should they be prohibited from joining the military? Should they
have to ask the family of the donor for permission for engaging in activities
that bear a level of risk? How do we decide what that level of risk is?Organ donation is a gift. You cannot set requirements for the
DN Editorial Staff,You seriously published the comment by A Voice of
Reason, but not mine?I try again:To A Voice...The more profound point is this: You can try to judge in advance as to what
kind of person should get your organs, but wisdom suggests you should instead
deeply consider what kind of poor wretch is using those organs now, and try to
make that person a more worthy one.Once you die and give the gift,
it is a free gift. You cannot place conditions upon it anymore than you can
place conditions on the gift of life you give to your own children.
A Scientist:Should an organ go to someone who likes to take extreme
risks with their life for pleasure? If the person got well and went out and was
reckless with their life... then no, most people wouldn't give up their organ
for them.I am educated and I have made a valid point as to why his
points are with considering. How the organ will be used isn't invalidated
because it revolves around human life.Each time someone drinks they
impair their liver more and more. Would you give your liver to an addicted
alcoholic?I don't support suicide or intentional self infliction-
but whether one is obligated to prevent or correct their actions is certainly
questionable. I'm not saying it's right or wrong... only that CougerKeiths point
was indeed valid.I'd even go so far as to appropriately phrase it
like this:"Contrary to popular belief; an educated person never
stops asking questions, only the fool thinks they already have the
answers."The more we learn, the more we realize we know
nothing. - Socrates, Einstein, and many other intelligent figures have said the
same thing. I agree with them.
This confusion over what a religion permits and does not permit is unfortunate.
I donated a kidney and it is one of one of the most meaningful things I've done
in my life. Hundreds of people die needlessly awaiting an organ
transplant. We should play up organ donation big time!
CougarKeith,I can't see why you want your organs to go to an
educated person. Your comments reveal those organs haven't been used by an
educated person yet.
I'm all for encouraging it but personal beliefs and decisions need to be
respected and we hardly see enough emphasis on this.I've seen more
than one person criticized very openly for this very personal decision, because
their ID showed it and someone else took notice.How would an article
would have fared had it been written with a disfavor for organ donation? I think
most people would have been outraged and this comment section would be much
longer. As much as we like to promote what we believe... Sometimes I wish we
also promoted civility even more.Just some food for thought...
I'm done with it. Take everything that's useful and burn the rest.
My personal decision is it's ok, I mean it gives your body, a temple an
oportunity to continue to serve! I just don't know that I would want a druggie
or alcoholic seeing with my eyes to carry on their BAD HABBITS and Social
degridation upon society. That would be my biggest fear! I also worry if my
heart is needed and there isn't much chance to save me, but some, my death might
be "Encouraged" you might say to save another's life??? These things
concern me greatly! As far as saving someone of good character, of good repore
of high education, a GREAT MOTHER, a blue collar dad, a child, a "Family
Person" of good moral conduct, I am emphatically in favor of using my
organs to help them! I would even be happy to donate my organs to someone who is
not of good repore if they would feel they have a second chance at life and
might repent and change their ways. Am I in favor of their death if they would
not repent? Of course not, but I wouldn't want to aid in their self destruction
either! It can be a tough decision!