Poor Joe1- I love Yuma, but that heat might be causing probs. If you
believe in the Holy One of Israel, He clears up the whole false prophet dilemma
in Deuteronomy 18. Back in Deut.17 he cleared up the whole plural wife thing.
Then He told first century Christians through the apostle Paul how consistent He
was in a letter to Timothy (1Tim.3:2). If you are a follower of a
previous Joe from 1830, he spoke on this in some ancient texts in the book of
Jacob (2,3) and Mosiah 11, which reiterated the Holy One's condemnation again
from David and Solomon's abuses (1Kings 14, etc.) Then that Joe got another
clear word from heaven on the one wife thing in 1831, (DC 49:16).It's only confusing to those who like consistency in their religious
practices. Warren Jeffs isn't confused at all: He stuck with the 1843 decree.
1890 meant nothing to a large portion of saints in Deseret, who were through
changing household rules. Like two of my great-grandads, they chose jail time
over abandoning their plural families. Jeff's isn't their moral equal, but he
stuck with their choice in prophets.
The definition of a destructive religious cult is like alcoholism-if booze
controls you instead of the other way around you are an alcoholic.The
Watchtower society Jehovah's Witnesses as an example is not benevolent and won't
let you leave their organization in peace.If they try to ruin your
reputation and break up your family for trying to get out then they are a
cult!Whenever you surrender your logic and reason to anyone who asks
you to trust them because they know better and to please donate generously, it's
a cult. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck....
The average age for an american woman to be married in 1820-1830's was 25.
Jeff,It is also a fallacy to take a single case to support your
argument. Census records show that the average marriage age for women in early
1800's was 21. That doesn't sound like young marriages were the norm to me.
Marrying 13-14 year olds was weird back then, and it is weird today.
@ Weber State Graduate and Joe Blow: In the early years of the 19th Century, it
was not generally considered inappropriate for a young teenage girl to marry
(witness Edgar Allan Poe, age 26, and his 13-year-old cousin Virginia--both
contemporaries of Joseph Smith). Since the 20th Century, those things have been
illegal without parental permission (witness Charlie Chaplin and his succession
of wives--all with their mothers' permission). Since the late 19th Century,
polygamy has been illegal, so Jeffs' young victims' mothers could not give
permission if they wanted to without being accessories to the crime.It is a fallacy to compare events in widely differing times with widely
differing laws and conventions.Warren Jeffs refuses to acknowledge
existing law, tries to inappropriately use his religious beliefs in place of the
rules of the court, threatens the court (with prophecies that will be easy to
verify), and does that which most clearly identifies him as insane--tries to
defend himself in court without the help of competent counsel. I want to say
that so that there can be no doubt that I think Jeffs deserves to go to jail.
I know there are differences with his sect and the early LDS Church. But there
are some similarities too. I'm just glad I was born into the modern LDS Church.
I would not have lasted a single day in the JS-BY Church.
Jeffs seems rather delusional. He is caught up in himself and his deception.
Which part of D&C 132:7 doesn't Jeffs understand?
Hey Poqui 4:43 p.m.: I totally agree about the "proof of financial
responsibility" part. Years ago I learned of a polygamous family where all
the "wives" except the first were on welfare as single mothers without
professions or income. In the eyes of the state, their "marriages"
were not legal, so who could argue... they were single mothers! Such a scenario
is very disturbing. I would vote for the legalization for that reason alone, to
clear out the "gaming" that is going on of our welfare system under
all our noses since rarely is polygamy prosecuted except in cases such as Jeffs
(which should be, we're talking about very young girls). There are
so many laws that are ignored in our country right now aren't there? Seems
polygamy, immigration, drugs, and gun laws are biggies that are just too hard to
control and take seriously due to all the complexities and years of soft
treatment or no prosecution at all. Now we collectively feel bad for those who
actually have the book thrown at them. Funny thing is there is a book to throw,
full of very specific laws. One thing at a time I guess...
Isn't this the same Warren Jeffs, who while in jail, admitted that he was evil
and renounced his right to be the prophet of the FLDS?
Weber Grad hit the nail on the head.Seems that this same scenario
has been played out previously. Quite the different reception
today.My how times have changed.
What a kook.
Strange this constitution thing...freedom of religion...not freedom from
religion.Seems most are hell bent on taking religion completely out
of American life. How, exactly, do you justify your attempts to
remove that which is guaranteed in the constitution? The use of the constitution
to protect filth and degenerate behavior is borish at best.The
misuse of religion by a few does not justify religions expulsion from the public
or political forum. If misuse were grounds for irradication then politics, news
media, hollywood, radio and television, comment boards, and hedonistic ideals
would all be gone... and Vice President Biden's mouth would have been surgically
sealed decades ago.
The man is sick in the head. His warped mind has very little sanity left in it.
I really think its sad that we have to waste so much in tax dollars to put such
a man away for life. He is the father of children who were born to underage
girls. Shame on him and shame on the parents of those girls who probably could
have done something to stop such an awful thing from happening to their own
innocent children! It's all very sad.
Hey Hellooo. What "legal ethics" are you talking about here? So the
judge recuses, and Jeffs gets another trial date, takes some law classes online
in the meantime and wastes even more time and money on both sides? Jeffs is not
a simple, dim man. He appears to be steeped with deceit and guile. Whether or
not God is speaking to him, the threats to the judge aside, Jeffs' deliberately
stalling sideshow antics ala New York's Colin Ferguson are beyond reproach, a
disgrace to the court and should be muted immediately. Fine if he wants to
represent himself, fire his attorneys, but some modicum of knowing the law and
procedure should be upheld. My guess is he will try to tire everyone out with
his hour-long sermons and Biblical brimstone so that the courts of Texas will
kowtow to issue a mistrial, claiming Bro. Jeffs' case is too complex and
religion wins out its day in court. Yay for freedom of religion.
hurry up and lock him up so we dont have to hear about him anymore
Jeffs may be guilty, but legal ethics are on his side here and the judge should
recuse herself from hearing this case.
I completely disagree with everything Jeffs stands for. Marrying children is
never, never, never right. And using religion for your own perversion is
totally not right.Having said that, isn't it about time we legalized
polygamy? Just set up some tight restrictions such as mandatory state classes,
proof of financial responsibility and a minimum age (say 22 or older)? Also set
up some seriously big penalties for breaking those rules. That being the case
we can stop ignoring the elephant in the room and provide legal and financial
protection to the women who chose to enter in to a polygamous marriage.
I do agree there are those living in Colorado City who have been brainwashed, if
you want to call it that, but most know in there souls that what they live is
wrong..it just doesn't feel right. Most of us have a sense of right and wrong
and I guarantee you, Mr. Jeffs does; he's just having too much fun. He's the
biggest fish in a very small pond and life used to be good. In the oldent days
of Short Creek, I truly believe the leaders of polygamy believed in what they
were doing and worked hard to try and make a better place to live. Since then,
however, the reign of the Jeffs as taken control and Warren Jeffs has poluted
what good there used to be there. And shame to those who stand with him....his
spirit isn't right..just doesn't feel right.
I hope this guy gets what he dished out while he is in jail, namely an older
larger person forcing himself on a smaller helpless person.
Re: "Jeffs . . . attached what he called 'Exhibit A,' consisting of 29
orders from the Lord, including one in which God sent 'a crippling disease upon
(Walther) which shall take her life soon.'"It's sad to see how
far men such as Mr. Jeffs will stray, in such a short time, when they ". .
. undertake to cover [their] sins, or to gratify [their] pride, [their] vain
ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the
children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness . . . ."Just
OMGoodness!!!Rifleman; I agree with you!!Hell has
frozen over (or at least it's all wet).
Thank you pagan, You are right. People argue using their faith, just like
Jeffs is doing before the court on these comment boards everyday, but they
can't see the similarities because their faith is correct and his is
"weird."I believe the point was well made ute alumni, that
using religion as a defense for what one does or believes is silly.Thus
the attacks from the religious right against homosexuality are founded in
silliness not fact.It's your right to believe in what you want. It is NOT your right to make religious decisions for other people.
"When they are good people who don't sexually assault underage
girls."I wonder who Fanny Alger, Sarah Ann Whitney, Flora Ann
Woodworth, Helen Mar Kimball, and Nancy Maria Winchester were? Maybe Jeff's is
confused about what's an appropriate age.
On my second bowl of popcorn here. This is more entertaining than anything I
could watch on TV or in a movie theater.
paganette:and your point? How is it you equate the world around prop
8, homosexuality, liberal agenda. I know, you'll say that Jeffsinherited
this from W. you cease to amaze me.
Joe1When they are good people who don't sexually assault underage
Oh yes, keep claiming religion. The more you do it the more you look like a
Why aren't people listening to this prophet? It is like Lehi trying to warn the
people of Jerusalem. When do we decide which prophets to believe?
'Warren Jeffs: God demands judge's removal' - Article Do you see the
foolishness in bringing religion into debate? Jeffs has no merit, so
he falls back to his faith to support his point, because he does not have,
facts. Want other examples of such foolish logic? The
defense for Prop 8: 2) Hak-Shing William Tam '(Hak) runs a
website that claims homosexuals are x12 more likely to molest children & to
cause states to 'fall into satans hands.' When asked what SOURCE
Mr. Tam used to support this claim, his response...? 'The
Internet.' Direct quote.
Brian David Mitchell had similar feelings about Federal Judge Dale Kimball.
Little girls belong in school. They should not be nursing one baby while
pregnant with another.
I disagree, I think he has no idea what he did is wrong. It is part of his
faith, a requirement for salvation. He has been brainwashed his whole life into
beliving this and he really believes he is a prophet and that he is doing what
the other prophets before him have done.And he is a prophet. He is
a false prophet with bad fruit like Jesus warns us about in Matthew 7.
I hope the judge continues to keep Jeffs in check. The pictures of him and body
language say he knows what he did is wrong, hanging his head in that position
says it all. H has a lot of nerve to suppose he speaks for God. I
sense the jury to be unfooled by the drama.