For those of you that seem to think I'm "uninformed" because I live is
Massachusetts you may want to know that I'm a pioneer stock, 5th generation
member and lived in Salt Lake and surrounding communities for 50 years. It's
the population that hides their head in the sand and refuses to acknowledge the
real world actually exists that are uninformed.
This country was built on two premises-1- As rights are given from
our Creator, therefore inherent- government cannot justify infringing these
inherent rights. | Without this premise any right could be taken away.
Governments do not GIVE us rights. We create government to protect rights.2- Government should not abridge the freedom to worship/practice
religion, to speak freely, etc.-------Anti-religion
doesn't work under our constitution.This country was designed for a
religious people. John Adams wasn't full of nonsense when he talked of this.
Whether it's guy 1, 2, or 3 - No one has more claim to truth than anyone
else.Joseph Smith essentially said- 'no one can take the claim 'you
are wrong' as justification for actions against them.' in the King Follett
Discourse.----We govern and refuse to recognize gay
marriage. We do not prevent gays from marrying privately, like polygamists
do.Individual freedom is preserved. We have prevented no-We democratically govern but refuse to allow religious beliefs in
politics.This destroys equal representation and removes any
possibility for democracy.---Being irreligious is one
thing, but being anti-religious is only destructive. Anti-'others beliefs' is
ignorant and a refusal to seek truth.
Pagan:"And I do not want to prevent anyone from excercising
their right to believe."The problem with the LGBT movement is
that this simply isn't true of what you guys are trying to do. Consider the
following.Guy #1 believes gay marriage is wrong based on empirical
evidence. (science, biology, anatomy, etc)Guy #2 believes gay
marriage is wrong based on religious beliefs.Guy #3 believes gay
marriage is an equal right.Your oft-stated premise, that religious
reasons shouldn't affect others, etc. is misguided. We believe that we shouldn't
impose on others. But state-recognition does not HAVE to impose on private,
individual freedoms whatsoever.If you want to disqualify guy 2
because of the reasons he uses, then you are limiting free speech, freedom to
worship, and so on.I've said it before and I will again, there are
absolutely NO rules requiring the citizen to 'leave certain beliefs out of the
voting booth upon entering'.Refusal of a national religion or
fostering government support religion is one thing... but what many forget is
that I have JUST as many non-religious reasons why gay marriage is wrong.
'Both groups are exercising their right to believe as they chose and follow it
up with actions.' - dlw7 | 10:53 a.m. July 29, 2011 And I do not
want to prevent anyone from excercising their right to believe.
However, when claiming that those against gay marriage 'they don't throw
rocks'...? Please keep in mind those very same examples of
'excercising their right to believe and follow it up with action.'
While not violent action, which is good, and perfectly legal, which is also
fine, you cannot claim both at the same time. That those against gay rights are
'doing no harm'... when 1) gay marriage WAS legal in CA before Prop
8 and 2) LGBT persons never claimed to adhere to those Mormon belief's in
question. It is true that LGBT are also vocal, but please, can you
give me an example of a LGBT group factually PREVENTING a.... temple
wedding? Straight wedding? Also that justice..? is NOT
the norm. Ergo Hate Crime legislation. Matthew Shepard, Larmie, WY.
Pistol whipped to death, the initial charges...? Burglary. DJ Bell? HE was first charged, with kidnapping. From... his
Pagan- You're conveniently ignoring crucial parts of these stories. Direct quote from the last article you cited - "Both teens came from
broken homes, but King (the boy shot) was the aggressor by making unwanted
sexual advances to McInerney and other boys, Wippert said."He
did this out of heat of passion," Wippert said of McInerney. "These
were two troubled young men and this was a tragedy."Gays are
not always the only victim in these stories. Please be fair in your
characterization. I'm not advocating killing as a way of dealing with these
distressing situations. Kids need to learn how to deal with their angst in
positive ways. Adults need to help these kids, not fuel their hatred for each
other. For every article you cite, there are just as many of the
destruction caused by gays. There is domestic violence in gay relationships,
there are children abused by gay and lesbian parents, there are innocent victims
on both sides of the fence. Again, read Crafting Gay Children.Rather
than pointing fingers of blame, we should be harshly judging only our own hearts
then try to see the perspective of the other side and respond with compassion.
Pagan; If you read newspapers around the country, there are many violent deaths
that do not involve gay people. In fact violent deaths among gay people would
only be a small percentage of those who die. At least in the incident in Salt
Lake the people who were responsible were convicted and punished. It would seem
that there was justice for the two gay people who were attacked in that case and
I am sure that is the norm rather than the exception. I read all of your
comments and feel your anger and flustration with the Mormon Church and Mormon
people in general because they are vocal in their opposition to gay situations.
By the same token, it is the gay men and women who march, file suits, and voice
their opinions most vocally. Both groups are exercising their right to believe
as they chose and follow it up with actions.
dlw7 | 9:55 a.m., I am not trying to demonize all who are religious.
There are many good and decent people who believe differently, and factually DO
allow others to live in peace. But do not pretend those are the
vocal minority. Not x4 months ago we finally had people sentanced
for breaking into a gay mans home (DJ Bell) and cracking his partners eye
socket. These are not 'random sentences'. They present a pattern. A
clear and evident need that those who DO believe as you claim, need to address
with their own, sometimes violent, members. Example:
*Calif. Teen faces trail in gay classmate killing - By Greg Risling AP -
Published by DSNews- 07/05/11 LOS ANGELES A Southern California
teen driven by white supremacist beliefs executed a gay classmate at a junior
high school with two gunshots to the back of his head There is still
much work to be done for your claims to be true.
Pagan; you either misinterpret what I say or you have an agenda to promote. I
just wanted to express that most people, Mormon, Catholic, Southern Baptist,
Sactified Holiness, and many other denominations that do not accept same sex
relationship operate on the theory that "I believe as I choose--you believe
as you choose and I am willing to live in peace with you." All the little
blurbs you quote are random sentences taken from a larger article. Perhaps you
chose those things that expound your beliefs, but do not reflect the nature of
the entire article.
@builttolast: I would ask you, respectfully, how this issue is being
"shoved down your throat"? Do you have "missionaries"
knocking at your door trying to convert you to become gay? Are there gays on
the street corners handing out pamphlets letting you know that if you do not
support gays, you will not be "saved"? Are your children forced to go
to gay events? What direct impact does it have on you?Is it
exposure that turns you off? Avoid the exposure. You can't, you say?
Apparently I can't go to a NASCAR event without exposure to a prayer. I'm not a
believer. Is religion being shoved down my throat?
Coleman wrote: "To make it abundantly clear, the LDS church will always
support marriage as between one man and one woman. That will not
change."Well, perhaps, unless they decide to go back to
"one man, multiple women".
To Dennis from Harwich, MA: Your observations of the Utah population from way
over there in Mass.?? That's rich.I agree that it's a non-issue. But
your figure of 10 to 15% of the population being gay has been proven to be
completely false. A figure of 2% of the population is being overly generous. And
the word "Fear" doesn't even enter into the equation. I suspect for
most people, the word is "disgust" that such a tiny sliver of the
population tries to dictate to the rest of the population how things should be.
Sorry. If you want to live a gay lifestyle, go for it. I could care less. But
when you start trying to shove it down my throat, we have a problem.
' In these days and times most people know someone or of someone who is in a
same sex relationship and while they may not understand what makes them tick,
they don't throw rocks at them either.' - dlw7 | 9:06 a.m. July 29, 2011 Well, not literally. *'LDS Church's in-kind donations to
Prop. 8 total $190K' - By Lynn Arave - By Dsnews - 02/03/09
'Proposition 8 was a ballot measure in California last November that changed the
state constitution to restrict the definition of marriage to opposite-sex
couples and eliminated same-sex couples' right to marry.' *Mormon
Church agrees to pay small fine for mistake that led to late report of
contributions in Prop. 8 campaign' - By Scott Taylor - By DSnews - 06/09/10 'As the state agency for interpreting and enforcing California's
campaign finance rules, the FPPC identified 13 instances of "nonmonetary
late contributions made and not timely reported" or the church failing to
file daily reports detailing $36,928 in in-kind contributions, including the
cost of staff time spent by church employees to help the "Yes on 8"
committee.' These are stories from your own paper moderator.
Dennis, you have been greatly misinformed about the majority of people in Utah.
People here are educated, informed, and in the main stream of things. The
prevalent religion does teach against same sex relationship, but then so does
the Catholic and Southern Baptist religions. If one visited some of the Southern
States you would find a majority of the people there do not believe in same sex
relationship. It is unfair to focus primarily on Utah. In these days and times
most people know someone or of someone who is in a same sex relationship and
while they may not understand what makes them tick, they don't throw rocks at
It isn't necessarily that there are more GLBT households, simply that we've
decided to answer the questions such that we are counted.This was
the first census that my partner and I listed ourselves as "unmarried
partners" on the census. We've been together for over 13 years - on the
prior census we just listed ourselves as roommates.
'To Dennis.. how do you know how Utah pop. reacts? Do you live in Utah? Yes,
some are afraid, but not near as many as you mistakenly assume.' - twinb | 8:03
a.m. I live in Utah. Over 10 years now. Dennis | 5:59
a.m., is supported. "Gov. Gary Herbert said Thursday that
people should not enjoy special legal protection based on their sexual
orientation." DSNews 08/29/09 *'Silent LGBT protest sparks
crude comment' - By Mohammad Allam - The Daily Utah Chronicle - 02/16/10 *'Gays greatest threat to America, Buttars says' - By Aaron Falk -
DSnews - 02/19/09 *Survey shows some LGBT residents dont feel safe
By Rosemary Winters SL Tribune 07/12/10 *'Safety of gay people
topic of Salt Lake discussion' - By Jennifer Dobner - AP - Published by DSNews -
07/14/10 *'Official Statement: Hate Speech Tagged at (Utah Pride)
Center' - 08/20/10 *'5 plead guilty in beating of South Salt Lake
man and his partner' - By Spencer Garn - DSNews - 03/21/2011 And
Chris Buttars was elected in Utah... three times.
Acknowledging that someone is LGBT is the first step in dismantling some of the
irrational fear around it.
so what ? more same sex couples livimg together so what ? if you dont agree with
it then spend your time worrying about your own personal problems and your
family and stop thinking you have the right to tell other people how to live
their lives because you dont have that right regardless of what you think. more
power to them ! I hope they are happy and content atleast they mind their own
buisness and stay out of yours. to bad you cant do the same for them.
To Dennis.. how do you know how Utah pop. reacts? Do you live in Utah? Yes, some
are afraid, but not near as many as you mistakenly assume. Sorry, but I don't
buy it and I've lived in Utah (though I'm not from there). I see such fear here
in Ohio! There are people who are fearful all over and not just Utah. It's
rather difficult to say many if all in Utah are afraid, that's a naive blanket
statement and totally not fair. Oh and BTW, it's not necessarily due to being
poorly informed, but rather just the opposite.
@ Maudine - Why? The only ill effect they have is harrassment from kids whose
parents "LBU" have brain washed them that their parents are sinners!
Mention the world "Gay" around the Utah based population and what do
you get? A lot of nervous, fearful and poorly informed members of the local
population. My observation is many if not all of you are afraid. Let me share
a little acronym with you. Fear = F alse E vidence A ppearing R eal. 10 to 15%
of the population is Gay. That's 10 to 15% of everyone you see, everyone you are
around, everywhere you go. It's time to take away the fear. It's a non-issue.
Welcome to the neighborhood. Please be good, respectful neighbors.
Um, we have always been here. The numbers are higher, but the discrimination
from the dominant religion in the state of Utah influences how folks fill out
their census questionnaire. When the Supreme Court rules that the discrimination
will end, and it will happen, equality will be everywhere.
The article said that a quarter of gay couples here are raising kids. If that
isn't a reason for gays to be allowed to marry, I don't know what is. I just
don't understand why so many are so adament about denying these innocent kids
the protections that my kids have and which I took for granted.
Maybe many of the bloggers need to read some that have already been written. A
lot of repetition.Statistics show me that Utahans are good at loving their
The basic census form did not require answering all the information and the
census taker could then fill in observations.The article is
mis-leading as it states that 6.6 of every 1000 homes are gay. Most would
glance at that and say 6.6% as opposed to .66% - below 2000 census numbers.Utah is very much gay friendly except for some homophobic souls (that
you find everywhere). The persons expousing themselves as gay is about 1% of
the population bases on census "observation". The census has NO
authority or congressional mandate to determine sexual orientation so anything
brought in can only be "observation" and unoffical. The 2000 numbers
are extrapolation of same sex households (room mates). 2010 tried to identify
this more with the long form questions and instructions given to census workers
for "observations".Citing gay sponsored surveys also
discredits the article, but at least Whatcott stated the source.
Why is this news? It's irrelevant to our lives. Or at least it should be in the
eyes of the LGBT community. Aren't they trying to blend in and become so normal
in our lives that they are no different than anyone else? So why should we
become aware of how many of them there are?LBU- Agreed! Though gays
and lesbians may be loving gentle parents, it's unfair to intentionally deprive
them of a father or mother.
@ LBU: Why? They suffer no negative effect.
I feel bad for the children who are brought up in these "families."
gay households is spreading in more places than just Utah.
Dn subscriber is sharp. We need more folks like that. Thanks
Notice how DN Subscriber hasn't come back with a response yet to those to
discredited their post.And a question for you: Aside from it being
against your "beliefs" and "morals," just how does the gay
lifestyle affect you directly?
How can this be "poor example" of journalism when everything reported
was gathered from the Census. It is a statement of fact, not opinion and it is
how it is. People here in Utah have to face up to the fact that "they"
are among us and that is not going to change--all that "last days"
goings on stuff. I have close relatives who share alternative livestyle. We are
cousins, good friends and I have a deep affection for them. I do not hassle them
about their life and they do not hassle me for not accepting same sex marriage
and we get along just fine.
The survey says that they determine that a couple is gay because person 1
answering the census describes their relationship with another adult of the same
sex as "husband/wife" or 'unmarried partner'. It doesn't sound like an
agenda to me; it's probably safe to say most of these are gay people. After all,
this is Utah, and no one who isn't gay would be brave enough to leave any
ambiguity as to their orientation. Regardless of what they are, i'm not afraid
When there was more than one person in a household, the census asked for gender
of the additional parties and their relationship to the primary person filling
out the census.It is doubtful that two people of the same-sex
sharing a residence would choose "married" or "unmarried
partners" if they were just roommates.
Calling it an example of "Poor Journalism" simply because you disagree
does not make it so.
I am not sure what this article is trying to imply. Does it suggest that the LDS
church support some aspects of gay marriage? To make it abundantly clear, the
LDS church will always support marriage as between one man and one woman. That
will not change. Those couples who are LDS and are actively gay whether in a gay
union or not, are subject to Church discipline. If this article is trying to
suggest otherwise, it is clearly misleading the public.
Good point by the subscriber above - I don't remember sexual orientation coming
from the census and it's unclear where these stats come from, but after having
lived in 4 different states, outside of california, Utah seems to be a very
gay-friendly place to live. Lots of gay couples in salt lake city. I would be
curious to know on a per-capita basis, how Utah ranks among other states. I
imagine it is close to top 10. Not as much discrimination compared to other
parts of the country.
DN Sub - They fill out their gender and then check that they are
partners.Per the census bureau:"The 2010 Census
will be the first to report counts of both same-sex partners and same-sexspouses. The person filling out the form (Person 1) is asked to identify how
all other individuals inthe household are related to him or her.Census data are based on how individuals self identify and how couples think
of themselves.Same-sex couples who are married, or consider themselves to
be spouses, can identify oneother adult as a husband or wife. Other
same-sex couples may instead decide to use the termunmarried partner. In
general, people who identify as unmarried partners are in a closepersonal
relationship but are not married or do not think of themselves as spouses."
@ DN Subscriber: Yeah - if only there had been a question on the census to ask
how person 2 is related to person 1 with options like Husband or wife,
Biological son or daughter, Adopted son or daughter, Stepson or stepdaughter,
Brother or sister, Father or mother, Grandchild, Parent-in-law, Son-in-law or
daughter-in-law, Other relative, Roomer or boarder, Housemate or roommate,
Unmarried partner, or Other nonrelative.Oh wait! There
was!Maybe they got the information because that is how the form was
This is a poor example of "journalism" where a news release from an
clearly biased source with an agenda provides data taken out of context, and is
accepted as fact.There were no questions on the census asking if a
person is gay, so therefore they must be selectively choosing data where two
unmarried adults of the same sex are living in the same residence and assuming
all are gays. Not siblings, nor a child caring for a parent, nor roommates.When biased "news" like this is spread, it is clearly an
attempt to create a "bandwagon" effect to condone and accept gay