This is a great tool for anyone or family to use to help in the battle of the
destructive force due to pornography and that type of addiction. Thanks to the Church in any and all efforts to stop this problem for
individuals desiring to help those in trouble. I know the Church
News, etc. will publicize this to the world. Thanks so much.
In a priesthood leadership meeting, a quorum of 70 member said that everyone in
the room, including himself, is not immune to pornography. It requires lifelong
vigilance.It is like a raging storm, destroying individuals and
families, utterly ruining what was once wholesome and beautiful.Pornography is not some titillating feast for the eyes that gives a momentary
rush of excitement. Rather, it has the effect of damaging hearts and souls to
their very depths, strangling the life out of relationships that should be
sacred, hurting to the very core those you should love the most.The
minds of youth become warped with false concepts. Continued exposure leads to
addiction that is almost impossible to break. Men, so very many, find they
cannot leave it alone. Their energies and their interests are consumed in their
dead-end pursuit of this raw and sleazy fare.Ye have broken the
hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because
of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to
God against you.
good video. Important message. The internet is the life blood of the 21 century
economy and day to day life for all Americans however with the good comes the
bad thanks to Hugh Hefner and all the rest of the porn Czars out there lurking
in the shadows. There is a balance between free speech and protecting society
from collapse and I think we are reaching that tipping point where something
more needs to be done to restrict the distribution of porn on the internet.
Filters are great ... for kids ... but it is adults that need protecting and
filters are easy to turn off or bypass by adults. Porn is 10 times more deadly
than cigarettes yet we think restricting cigarette advertising is fine. Go
When I was a boy in the 60's & 70's my father placed porn in my bedroom.
Relatives had porn available and with my cousins we were exposed to this filth.
I learned as a child porn warps the mind and changes reality. It nearly
destroyed my life.I have lost friends to porn. They changed and lost
their families, and so much more.Today, it is not a matter of if we
are exposed, it is a matter of when. I use filters, spam protection, and yet
some filth still gets through. Pornographers are always looking for ways to beat
our defenses. We must walk away from it and shun it as the cancer of the mind,
which it is. If ever porn slips through my defenses, I remove it and then I talk
to my wife. Talking, even while innocently exposed cleanses my mind and I can
let it go. Together with my wife and the Spirit of the Lord as my final safety
net I feel safe, though constantly vigilant protecting myself from this evil.
Thank you Elder Holland for your inspired words of counsel.
What did that have to do with anything about porn?
Porn is the personification of selfishness and lack of reality. Real women have
feeling, needs and responsibilities. Real women are tired from a day of taking
care of their families whether it be in the home or on the workplace. Men need
to support their wives by doing more, changing more diapers, helping around the
house. Then your partner will be more open to you. Expecting the false porn
glamour and expecting it from your spouse while expecting them to have all your
kids while you do no work on raising them is an unrealistic and terrible path
that only leads to pain.
Johnson72, To answer you question: "What did that have to do with anything
about porn?"From the video it shows we have choices, and to
choose to avoid porn is to choose to save our families. Porn is about
selfishness, false expectations, and warped senses of reality. I
have a friend, one of the sweetest people I have ever known. When her husband
choose porn, he started comparing her to the filth he was watching. She was thin
and beautiful, there was nothing wrong with how she looked. (BTW: thin does not
equal beauty.) He became so critical of her she sunk into a terrible depression.
He said she was fat, when she was not. She gained a lot of weight and the
depression increased. She eventually left him and is now married to a wonderful
man, but she still suffers emotionally from the abuse inflicted by her former
husband.The message is we have choices and the choices we make
affect those we love.
That was a terrific, powerful message. Excellent. Imagine a world...
Johnson72 | 11:26 a.m. July 15, 2011 Salt Lake City, UT What did
that have to do with anything about porn? What do you think it dealt
I agree with Elder Holland... but then ask, why if many R-rated movies have
explicit nudity and pornographic elements are they now allowed in classes at
BYU? The Harold B Lee Library has over 300 of them now at location
"Faculty Use Only". They used to be in the general catalog but they
had too many complaints. In the 1990's when I worked at BYU, full fledged porn
was used in certain marital counseling situations. Unbelievable, but true. We
need to practice what we preach, and that includes at Church owned BYU. Porn is
"Johnson72 | 11:26 a.m. July 15, 2011 Salt Lake City, UTWhat
did that have to do with anything about porn?"People must live
in a world where no one feels pain, betrayal and worthlessness due to actions of
others because of choosing porn over their families. The video encourages you
to choose your family and their worth.
Johnson72I remember my father telling me 50 years ago, when I was a
teenager something very special to me. His father passed away when my father
was only 9 years old so his mother raised him as a single-parent. One time they
were walking down the street in Ephraim, where they lived, and my grandmother
and father were watching a couple in front of them. My grandmother said,
"What that boy is doing is not appropriate and he is not treating the girl
with respect."I believe we all know what treating with respect
means in relation to all people but especially with our wife. One thing in this
video mentions "Fidelity" and we all know what means in our
relationship with our wife. I could see the choice this individual or all of us
have to make, do we treat our family with respect or not. In the dark side, you
could see what the effects of pornography did to his wife and children. The
look on the daughter's face when he was doing the right things and the happiness
in his wife's face was an endearing smile as she showed love to the family.
Well done! Timely and important.
@LVIS I still don't know... and I watched it twice!
Johnson72, perhaps your naivete is a sign that you have not been touched by the
devastating effects of pornography. Congratulations!
This is a very sobering video, on how simply viewing Pornography can impact our
lives. Many feel like their little problem is not worth addressing, is not worth
eliminating because I am the only one involved. This is a lie propagated by the
devil himself. God would never condone this behavior. God wants you to choose
him, and to choose yourself. Choose God, and yourself today and begin writing
your own story of recovery. A story that requires that you come forward and
address this behavior!
I think that if men can keep porn down to about a half hour a week, there's no
real problem. I know many of you don't want to hear that, but it's probably
true. At the extreme ends, yes--over exposure to it can be soul sapping and
harmful--just like spending too much time on shoot-em-up video games, or too
much time at the bar. But my gosh, when I was a kid my dad would take me to the
barber shop (in SLC btw) and there were Playboys, Penthouses etc laying on all
the tables. Men would wait for a chair and read the nudie mags. Big deal. I think that if the Des News ran an article about people who have looked
at a lot of pictures or saw a lot of clips of naked people in their lives and
still lived productive lives and had good relationships, raised good kids and
did great things for scociety, it would blow this story out of the water.
*Utah No. 1 in online porn subscriptions, report says By Elaine Jarvik 03/03/09
DSNews That's the conclusion of a Harvard economics professor who
tracked subscriptions to online porn sites. Utah ranks No. 1 in subscriptions,
according to Benjamin Edelman, who reported his findings in the article
"Red Light States: Who Buys Online Adult Entertainment?," published in
the most recent edition of the Journal of Economic Perspectives.
This is for bgl I read your comment and got sick to my stomach. The reason why
is that I was in a marriage that my husband had the same outlook as you do. That
lasted for a few years but by the time we were married for seven years things
started to really change. More and more he became involved with porn. Then when
I was seven months pregnant he started to cheat on me. The first year of my
daughters life he was hardly home. He would even go to bars to pick up women so
that he could make his act out what he had watched. By ten years of marriage I
had no self esteem and our marriage was ruined. He even started to become very
emotionally abusive along with mentally. To this day he still cheats on his
wives as he in now looking for wife number 4. So please reconsider what you are
saying because porn is deadly. I have been blessed in finding a good man who
loves and respects me for whom I am. Porn is poison.
bgl-A person can smoke their entire life and never get lung cancer.
Does that mean smoking isn't bad for your health?You're right that
people who use pornography can have productive, good lives. But they'll never
know what they missed out on.
I like the message. Even adults need to be careful to not to let things like
pornography consume their life. I think the same can be said for
many other things like internet message boards, video games, substance abuse,
work, or even church. If we find ourselves choosing these types of things over
our families, we need to reconsider whether or not we should do them at all. If
we have trouble doing these types of activities in moderation, then it is
probably wise to consider giving them up altogether.
Pornography and moral issues are silent killers, sneaking in and grabbing what
you most treasure in an instant. Lives are destroyed and relationships killed
over small things. And it's not just men now, it's women too, we've ALL got to
be vigilant and refuse the constant stream of garbage that is available to us.
Pornography addiction is a symptom of larger problems with the person and/or
relationship. The source is not to blame; people are! People control their
actions or reactions....not the source. Put blame for porn addiction where it
belongs....on the person. People do not become addicted to things simply because
the source exists and taking the source away will not prevent access.
bgl | 12:42 p.m. July 15, 2011 Santa Monica, CA "I think that
if men can keep porn down to about a half hour a week, there's no real problem.
I know many of you don't want to hear that, but it's probably true"Probably true? Patently false. And I doubt they could keep it to half an
hour a week. But still--if I offered you a glass of water with just a drop of
poison in it, would you drink it? If it was only one drop a week? Because
really, what's the harm in it? And, don't give me the shibboleth about 'just a
little porn' being good for you--keeps the relationship fresh, etc. That is
nothing more than intellectual emphysema at its best. And
Johnson72--Seriously? I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for
Pornography has addictive tendencies like alcohol and tobacco, but I fear that
too many jump to the conclusion that anyone who looks at porn is an addict. The
prevalence of porn is the greater issue. It is so easy to come across that when
someone does, they can easily decide to look at it with negative results
including potential addiction. But, that does not mean they are an addict. Many
people see porn and don't turn away because it is prevalent and enticing. Yet,
when out of the situation they don't desire to see it. This means including not
seeking it. Unfortunately, because porn is so prevalent, they can easily get
caught looking at it as unexpected situations arise. Could someone
be considered a sex addict because they seek sex frequently from their spouse?
Or, are they just enticed by their spouse's beauty yet when that spouse is not
present, they no longer seek sex?The fear I have is that many
(especially in the Church) don't want to admit they sometimes look at porn for
fear of being labeled an addict. Rather, they may just find difficulty with the
prevalence of porn and making choices to turn away.
My father was addicted to porn and alchohal. Together those two combined forces
were at the center of everything bad that every happend to my family. Families
and society both pay a high cost because of pornography.
Pornography in hotels," According to a survey by Citizens for Community
Values, 75 percent of American hotel rooms and 90 percent of Marriott suites are
wired with in-room adult movies. "They are the biggest and most egregious
purveyor of pornography," Burress said of Marriott.
Experts say that pornography, and sex is not the problem, just like food isn't
the problem for overeaters. The issue goes much deeper than your choice of
drug, and in reality the real drug we are dealing with is lust. Perhaps you are
successful at avoiding pornography, perhaps you able to go for long periods of
time without viewing it. The question I think you really have to ask is, how is
lust playing out in your life during those dry spells? Do you
fantasize about women? Do you bring fantasies home to your wife? Are you
lusting after your wife? Can you keep your eyes off the woman running down the
road? How about the gal that drives up next to you in the car? Do you speed up
to get a second look?I think it is time to set the denial on the
shelf and really start looking at our obsession with Sex, pornography, and
become rigorously honest. It is ok to talk to about this issue. It is ok to say
that we struggle, and it is even better to say that we are getting help.
Bgl... Real men don't view porn. They shun from it. I say this as a man. Society
values have gone down, and way down even in my short life of almost 48 years. We
can all see this. We must seek for things that are "lovely and good report
and praiseworthy". No one who views porn feels good about themselves. To
prove this, why do men sneak to view it then?? My hope is for all men to avoid
this filth. May you be the one who makes a stand and defend things that are good
and wholesome.This was a powerful message from Elder Holland. Thank
you LDS church for standing up to this terrible sin. May all men out there make
good choices. I wish porn was against the law. It is totally wrong. And the
person viewing it knows, or why sneak?
@bglIt concerns me when advocating playing with fire. This
discussion has only lightly touched on the many issues and social problems that
pornography creates. In Oregon several years ago I was involved in the Stop
Child Pornography campaign, which was defeated due to first amendment free
speech rights. I testified before a state senate committee and said, Free speech
must not leave victims. Fortunately laws were changed so child pornography is
now fully illegal in my home state of Oregon.So one of the BIG
issues with porn is the exploitation of innocent participants. Pornography is
not just about consenting adults viewing photos of other consenting adults. It
is about children, women, and even some men who are forced into doing things
against their will, so someone else can exercise their free speech rights. If
you are viewing 30 minutes of porn a week on the Internet, then how do you know
the images are not those of victims of abduction, coercion, or abuse? Exploitation is only one of the MANY reasons why pornography is EVIL and a
cancer to our society. There are many others reasons why pornography MUST be
avoided and eradicated.
Those who say "it's okay, just control it" or any other phrase
accepting porn even in the slightest are simply in denial and lying to
themselves about what this is.Everyone knows right from wrong.
Everyone.-------------------In response to the Marriott
comment:"They are the biggest and most egregious purveyor of
pornography," Burress said of Marriott.I used to work for
Marriott. There are great things about the company. I personally believe that
after Marriott Sr. passed on that the company has gone down hill. While I like
'the Marriott product' in many respects, the company and Bill Marriott Jr. have
lost much of my respect.Bill Marriott Senior used to say that if you
treat your employees well, they'll turn around and treat your customers well.
This is falling away from Marriott and MVCI and this is the only reason that
they are losing my respect. I now look back at the company, and with their
acceptance of porn in their rooms I simply am disappointed. I don't boycott them
for other reasons regarding my beliefs surrounding 'boycotts' and what the LDS
church said about Prop 8 and boycotting... but I certainly don't respect the
'new Marriott' way.
* "I think that if men can keep porn down to about a half hour a week,
there's no real problem" *Haven't you ever known anyone who
became addicted to tobacco, alcohol, or cocaine after "just trying it
once"? The closer people try to get to the edge of the cliff,
and the more often they try, the greater their chances of falling over. And not
just falling over, but being knocked over by an unexpected circumstance or
person once they have become complacent to the risk.
Its a gateway to numerous life issues. Starting with insecurity.
This message is one of the many reasons I love the Church. Thank you Elder
Holland for a frank message that cannot be heard by too many.
Well, the brethren have been harping on pr0n since I entered the mission field
over 15 years ago during general priesthood meeting, general conference, etc. It
would appear the membership is not taking their good advice and the problem is
as bad as ever. Very unfortunate. I can think of nothing that denigrates a woman
more than does the objectification of their bodies as sexual vessels thereby
devaluing their worth as individuals. I don't know what the solution is. I have
seen firsthand the horrors of drug addiction, alcoholism, poverty, disease, etc.
and it seems like the pr0n problem is every bit as hard to quit as any of it.
Bad omen for the membership of the LDS church that they are still fighting this
fight. It is, however, a worthy fight.
My father left us for another woman when I was 6. I cried all night long asking
my mom to have my dad back. That experience affected me so deeply that when I
got married, I was not able to feel secure about my husband's feelings. Shortly,
he ended up cheating on me too and we divorced. It took me years and years to
recover and heal. I've been blessed to marry a second time and couldn't feel
happier. I know my husband is 100% faithful to me and our family.So,
there you go, these are the consequences of porn and infidelity. My ex husband
may say he is happy the way he is but I neither my kids were happy with his
choices. So, whoever says people who see porn leads productive lives, I would
say do you really think? what about their families?
Jesus said that to look upon a woman and lust after her is committing adultry in
your heart. What is porn but committing adultry in your heart? It's amazing
how people justify little sins and think that porn is one of them. Whether you
ever act on it or not, porn is spirituallty damaging and a betrayal of your wife
It is wrong to lust after my own wife?Well if that is the case, I
don't want to be right!Maybe I am missing something, but I just
don't see this pornography problem tearing apart families and society.
Biologically, the males of many species are predisposed to be visually attracted
to the females of their species. This is presumably how we were created by our
Father in Heaven: the command to "multiply and replenish the earth"
was built into our natures.Burdening that God-given attraction with
all this uproar and overzealous condemnation protests too much, methinks.Could it be that such hyper-sensitivity and over-reactions to
"porn" is muddling those natural affections and contributing to
confusion over opposite- vs same- gender attraction?I know the more
I read these articles (which strike me as extreme), the less passion and romance
I feel. How can anyone just relax and enjoy one's spouse with all this anxiety,
worrying if you are "lusting" over your own spouse?I say
lighten up and enjoy the passion and romance God gave us as a gift. Otherwise,
what is the point?
"I just don't see this pornography problem tearing apart families and
society."Do you remember the suggestion that all mormons could
be considered 'closet anti-mormons', to which there was a reply saying 'no, just
those who call themselves LDS but disagree with the church on everything.'?-----To everyone:If you are LDS and doubting the
church on this issue (or any other), please feel free to pray and/or seek
guidance from your bishop for help- but please don't spread those doubts
publicly.-Deductive proof:Porn promotes
self-indulgence.Porn is addictive.Porn promotes sexual arousal.Porn promotes these by viewing OTHER persons you are not married to.Addiction is destructive of agency, a core LDS doctrine.-----In my next post I will provide information I suggest is useful to
someone with doubt on this issue.
Pagan:Once agiain you distort Edleman's findings to say what he did
not & could not, based upon his data. Your continued prejudiced distortion
of his findings combined with your refusal to read and quote the actual study
are a manifestation of your compulsion to attempt to smear groups and
organizations who do not align with your politics and social agendas. Utah was NOT the State with the highest number of paid subscribers to the
SINGLE online porn provider that Edleman examined. Edleman can only claim with
any degree of scientific integrity and intellecutal honesty that after he used a
series of controls, Utah had the highest number of subscriptions to the SINGLE
given on line porn provider.Edlemans controls intentionally or
unintentionally skewed his data to fit certain subsets of the general population
& he also refuses to release his sample data for peer review. Under these
questionable circumstances/ conditions, would you cite articles about Edlemans
work if they portrayed homosexuals in a bad light? Objective
research requires reading & quoting the ORIGINAL Source when ever possible.
Or if you prefer a more modern/popular idiom-do you want your oats before or
after they go through the horse
I asked to be excommunicated almost 30 years ago, reasons, were varied and still
pertinent. But of all the religions I've experienced, LDS is the most family
oriented, spiritual religion I know of. That also tends to make faith in it
harder for me, as I see the hypocrisy in it also stronger than other religions.
I somewhat envy those with such strong faith that they can overlook things I
can't. I made my choice and since moving back to Utah, I'm allowing my daughter
to make her choice. I'll be proud of her either way. You Mormons, keep up the
Elder Holland's message is one of the best porn prevention presentations that I
have ever viewed. It is plain & powerfull yet not harsh & overbearing.
It is a message of warning & a wake up call to those who need rebuke and a
wake up call as well as optimism and change. Sometimes less is more. However, I hope the day comes when the LDS members start admitting that porn
is an ever growing problem for LDS women too, and the LDS need to accept the
fact that being PC and not addmitting and portraying women as the abusers, the
addicts, and the adulterers in their presentations/teachings is not a reflection
of the truth and reality of the LDS culture.In the US therapist and
recovering former porn viewer Crystal Renaud calls women's addiction to
pornography "widespread and silent". This does not include the common
practice of women reading "romance novels" or women porn as some call
them and the practice of meeting and getting to know men in intenet chat rooms
to start relationships of emotional infidelity and eventually adultery. None the less, an excellent message by Elder Holland
@I M LDS 2You present a VERY scary and dangerous line of thinking.
When I was young my father used to tell my sisters and me how beautiful the
human body is--which is true--however, he used frightening methods of
demonstration trying to warp our minds. Over 40-50 years ago pornography made my
father into a MONSTER of horrible proportions. He even promoted same-gender
attraction and HE created the confusion you subtly mention. He tried to make
evil look good and even desirable. I cannot describe the destruction he did to
the minds of my family while growing up. Fortunately, he is out of the picture
now and can no longer hurt anyone.You ask the question, It is wrong
to lust after my own wife? YES, it is absolutely wrong! You are confusing lust
for love and that is a BIG mistake. Lust seeks to please our carnal animal
natures, whereas love joins two hearts as one. Relationships built on lust can
NEVER enjoy the wonder and magic of love.Probably the scariest part
of your post is, my father used many of the same arguments you present.
Porn ia very vile stuff. It demeans those who indulge, men or women. I would
mention that women who consider sexual intimacy "a nasty chore" are
setting themselves up for disaster.
CTR 8:00 a.m."You are confusing lust for love and that is a BIG
mistake."Lust is a part of love, and to pretend it isn't is to
deny one of the key parts of being human. Sure, it can be abused, but so can
food, religion, exercise, reading, or anything else. Do we call these things
"evil" and ban them, or do we figure out a way to integrate them into
our lives in a healthy way?Look, if porn isn't your thing, that's
your right, but too many people on these forums have an odd insistence that
their way is the ONLY way and anyone who disagrees is a drooling addict who will
destroy their family and any chance of happiness. It's not just that you
believe porn is always wrong. It's that you NEED it to be wrong, as if your
entire worldview depends upon it being wrong. Why the desperation?As I said before, think and act however you like, but there is more under
Heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in your philosophies and it's sad that most
of you will probably never see that. Or want to...
It is the nature of men to look, thats how we are made. Porn apparently damaging
to some, just as alcohol is damaging to some. I would think that laying to big
of a guilt trip on men for doing what they do naturally, just looking is also
damaging and sexually confusing.
What is pornography? is it pictures or movies of people engaged in weird and
violent sexual acts, if so I can see how it can distort in peoples minds of what
healthy sexual relations ought to be.It isn't apparent to me however
that pictures of women in a state of undress is damaging. If so how is it?Keep in mind that some of our greatest religious art in churches in
Europe and statues too, are of people who are not clothed.I think we
need to get our definitions straight in order to have a productive
I think it's so sad the way these porn addicts come on here every time trying to
justify themselves. You are using the arguments that Satan uses to draw people
down the path to their own destruction.CTR Stan: Thanks for your
comments. You clearly know whereof you speak. Nothing that destroys the spirit
is worth one second of anyone's time. Unfortunately, we live in a world that's
full of this filth. We have to be ever vigilant in fighting against it.
This comment line is great. Some views I agree with, some I don't. I do believe
in everyone's freedom of speech. Saying that, speech is like everything else,
music, movies, shows and dirty pictures/movies. If we don't like it, we turn it
off. Does that make everything alright, definitely not. The Mormon church has
their doctrine and I agree with most of it as healthy. Porn is unhealthy in all
forms. It does nothing but tease the viewer. It doesn't promote healthy outlooks
at anything. It demeans the the human race. It gives unreal expectations. Women
in porn say that they aren't victims, neither is the person who buys the fake
diamond ring, thinking it's real. They chose to buy it, still doesn't make it
right. People will believe what they want until it beats them in the face and
causes more pain than denial can hide. Are Mormons totally correct, I don't
think so, but more often than not, they hit the nail on the head. The general
population seems to think that accepting something over time will eventually
make it OK. The Mormons don't fall for that and aren't shy about admitting it,
good for them.
Still waiting for the church to call the women to repentance for partaking of
the porn. From what I have seen, about 95% of them read Twilight. It's
I still don't understand why men would want pornography unless their wives were
cold and didn't want to be intimate....which actually might be the case more
than we think.
The message about Porn is not new --- Jesus Said ( as a man thinketh in his
heart, so is he )The leaders of the Church of Jeaus Christ of Latter Day Saints
have all warned us of this deadly addiction for many years.
Having been on both sides of the screen I can tell you that both are 100%
accurate. Unfortunately many church leaders are ignorant of the causes of and
ways to end this behavior. Not a complaint, just a fact. One Church leader told
me, "You just need to stop looking at it." I was invited
to discuss this issue with the bishops in our stake. I asked them, "If
someone came to you with a drinking problem, would you simply tell them to just
stop drinking? Or would you tell them to just read the scriptures, say your
prayers and come to church?" Many shook their heads. Porn is an
addiction and needs to be treated as such. The Church now has an addiction
reovery program which is wonderful. I also started attending the local meetings
of Sex Addicts Anonymous which has been a God-send. Even though I haven't had a
drink since I joined the Church, I attend AA meetings just to stay in touch with
my program. I am once again enjoying the presence of the Holy Ghost in my life.
Life is beautiful again. This addiction can be beat.
An LDS woman and man divorce. Reports come back to the church, usually from the
wife, that her spouse has been watching porn. The LDS Chuirch concludes that
porn breaks up families and counsels its members to avoid porn at all costs.
Unfortunately, the lDS church fails to identify why men are watching
porn.Biologically, most men have a strong sex drive and desire sex.
It's human nature. If a husband and wifwe are not having sex and do not have a
goosd sex life, many husbands will look elsewhere to satisfy their sexual drive,
whether it be with another woman, or more often, through porn. A significant
portion of married persons who are viewing porn are doing so because their sex
life with their spouses is lacking or nonexistent. If the LDS Church has a wide
spread problem with viewing porn, it ought to be counseling its married members
on becoming closer to their spouses through a good sex life andcounseling them
about communciating with one another with regard to sexual needs and wants. Unfortunately many of these comments are proof positive as to why
couples don't candidly discuss sex with one another. And so the cycle
continues. . .
I believe the problem depicted in this video is not porn, but in how porn is
perceived and deception. I know many many couples where one or both partners
looks at porn, is honest about it and they are totally okay. Not only does it
not have negative impact on their relationship, but even has some positive.
Generally addiction is defined as not being able to stop something, even if it
has negative consequences on your life. So if you are an Lds person, yes,
looking at even one minute of pornography per week may be an addiction because
it is seen as a grievous sin which leads to heartache and dishonesty. But for
the non-Lds, pornography is often just one part of a person's life and
relationship, only rarely leading to addiction. So when I watched the video, I
felt sad for the couple, but not because of the pornography, but rather because
their secrecy and unhealthy views towards it allowed it to ruin their lives
relationship. I think an extreme anti-porn stance will due more harm to
individuals and relationships than pornography ever could.
Pornography in hotels," According to a survey by Citizens for Community
Values, 75 percent of American hotel rooms and 90 percent of Marriott suites are
wired with in-room adult movies. "They are the biggest and most egregious
purveyor of pornography," Burress said of Marriott. ---------------Marriott has been removing it from their hotels. I think
the problem is the contract they had with their TV provider. It takes time to
change contracts but it is changing.
It seems like many of the commenters who cite personal examples of how porn
destroyed their life cite everything except actual porn.They reference
husbands or fathers abandoning them. Sexual abuse at the hands of parents or
loved ones. And for some reason they connect this to porn? Why do these
legitimately devastating actions have anything to do with porn? Because those
men also happened to look at pornography? 99% of men on earth look at
porn! You could make a similarly fallacious connection between pornography and
anything else men do. Since most fortune 500 companies are led by men who look
at porn, does that also mean porn makes people rich and successful? Since most
race car drivers are men who look at porn, does that mean pornography will make
me a race car driver? Studies show that as pornography laws are relaxed,
rates of rape and abuse goes down. Porn can provide a healthy sexual outlet for
people who would otherwise use unhealthy means.
CTR Stan,"...a VERY scary and dangerous line of
thinking...""...frightening methods..."Wow! Lots of fear and anxiety in your life.But I have news for
you. I am not your father. Most people are not your father, and most people's
lives are not your life."You are confusing lust for
love..."You presume to judge my relationship? Really?I have been happily married for over 20 years to the most beautiful woman in
the world - she is "hot", and our relationship is filled with passion
(call it what you want, you don't know), not prudish anxiety and fear such as
you describe in your life. There is nothing wrong with the "passion" I
have in my relationship."...pornography made my father into a
MONSTER...""...I cannot describe the destruction he did to
the minds of my family.""...my father used to..."I suggest that you blame your father for many things. Sounds like you
need to take responsibility for your own life and stop blaming.Fear
and blame... your comment is filled with these.2_Timothy_1:7"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love,
and of a sound mind."
Regarding porn in the Marriott Hotel chain. I wrote to the Marriotts in the
early 1990's about it and was shocked that I got an actual reply from them on
corporate stationary, signed by the big guy himself. He was frank and said that
though he abhorred porn and what it does to people, he had to provide it in his
hotel chain because his competition provided it. The family owned Marriott
properties did not have porn in them, and apparently never will. The 90% of the
Marriott chain that has the porn are franchisees. I believe Marriott was a
stake president at the time and I recall being somewhat saddened by the answer I
received. Money rules.
Porn definitely generates a lot of interest here...
Ctr Stan,I am very sorry to hear about your father and the difficulties he
caused in your life. However, I believe it is unfair to blame his problems on
pornography. Virtually every male I know, Lds and otherwise looks at or
'struggles' with pornography and none of them are monsters. Perhaps it was his
guilt over pornography that induced monster like behavior in him, if that is
the case, it is the Church's strong anti-porn stance that caused his troubles,
not pornography itself. Most likely, your dad had other issues, perhaps mental
illness that caused his destructive behavior and in an attempt to understand
how someone could act that way, pornography was used a scape goat to explain his
behavior. Otherwise, most men in the entire world would be monsters and I don't
believe that is true.
You'll go blind- that is the philosophy I teach. No need to have some dude speak
about evil, satin and all that junk......
Looking, doing what comes naturally, is the cheapest excuse of all. For the
natural man is an enemcy to God . . .
Before there was even internet I cant tell you how many friends I had who
destroyed their lives starting with porn. Back in middle school it seemed like
almost everyone was doing it. My friends who did not look at porn turned out
great. The ones who got into it have had jail time and have made poor decisions
in their lives with many consequences. Before they got into
drugs,gangs,robbery,burglery,felony related vandalism,grand theft auto,and i can
name a few others I noticed it was a porn magazine. I have had bad habbits in my
life but one of them was not porn. It is critical to teach your children to stay
away from this evil. I have seen it destroy peoples lives and marriages more
than drugs and alcohol.
Pornography eroticizes and promotes hatred and violence against women, as well
as self hatred in men. When we accept or engage in it, we, however indirectly,
are supporting an evil global web of organized crime, abuse, drugs,
prostitution, sex trafficking, etc. Glad to see the church talking
about it more and offering more ways to help those trapped in the web and
educate those who love them. Boys get addicted as teenagers or
earlier--I hate the excuse that men look because of some deficiency with the
wives. It has NOTHING TO DO with their wives at all. Many were sick long
before they got married. Stop the denial--get help.
@I M LDS 2Due to DesNews 4-Post 200-word limitation prevents CRT
Stan to reply to you directly, so he asked me.He wishes to
congratulate you on 20 years of happy marriage! His desire is not to judge
[your] relationship. He understands he may have a different different definition
of lust than you. He believes lust as craving or appetite for physical pleasure
or power, and I that love comes from the heart; he apologizes if he misjudged
you.Pornography nearly destroyed his life many years ago. He is a
strong survivor who recognizes the subtlety Satan uses to minimize the dangers.
He knows it is proven most perpetrators of sexual abuse use pornography as fuel
for their fires of their perversion. Most do not become a monster pedophile like
his father, who used frightening and sick methods of coercion on his many
victims. Pornography is something that is typically created and viewed in
secret, away from loved ones. It has destroyed many families. Mental health
professionals, and law enforcement know pornography has a strong link to sex
crimes.Bottom line: Pornography is Dangerous!
I think it would be appropriate to reiterate the message that porn affects
different people differently. I have read enough things from people and heard
enough about the phenomenon of porn from podcasts to know that if one or both
partners in a relationship are hypersensitive to things like porn, then that
fact alone can have more of an impact than anything else. I also heard a story
about a woman who left her husband because he read an 'anti-mormon' book. There
are many other ways that I could demonstrate that being overzealous in your
convictions is perhaps the cause in many cases of big problems. I'm not
advocating pornography here, but I just want people to know that all things
should be looked at in a healthy way. And no, porn does not make everyone into a
sex addict. It can be an outlet, like others have said, which in some ways can
lessen the effects of horrendous crimes occurring in your community, just like
brothels. Or, yes, it can be the cause of it. Whatever the case, it's simply
impossible to paint this issue with one color.
BYU Alum, Sounds like a made up story to put the church in a bad light to
me.Pagan don't believe everything you read Satan has power over many people
trying to destroy the truth.
The filth that has filled my mind by viewing the garbage in most of these posts
is far too much to handle! I must cleanse my mind! I must go surf the net. I
must find some. . . Ahh. . . Much better. . . EB2, I
sincerely hope that Stan gets the professional help he so clearly needs. It is
very hard for people to deal with that sort of systemic abuse. His father
clearly had problems. With that said, I'm not about to accept Stan's
opinion on "porn" for one second. I'll listen to cooler heads then
most of those posting here. For instance, many here have claimed
that "porn" is more dangerous then alcohol or drugs. Obviously those
people making this assertion have had very little interaction with actual
alcoholics and drug addicts. Believe me, as one that has had many years of very
close interaction with all kinds of drug and alcohol addicts it seems almost
silly to put those who view "porn" in the same category. Obviously, while some are addicted to "porn" and sex very few of
those are pedophiles. And a frigid spouse can ruin a marriage just as surely as
an oversexed spouse.
Not all pornography is the same. While I agree that exposure to violent or
deviant forms of pornography can lead to anti-social attitudes and behavior; I
disagree that ALL forms do. Swim suit models, porn stars, naked women in
national geographic magazines, a sexily dressed woman on the street, nude art,
explicit sexual novels, can all be the same to most men. Do we ban all porn for
ALL people when many who view non-violent/non-deviant forms do so without ill
affects? As a general rule, women (not all) tend to view pornography with a
sense of disgust while the male population speaks with acceptance and/or mild
apathy unless it becomes a problem. Porn may objectify women, but this is
because of the male mindset. Porn doesn't naturally oppress women, but it is a
reflection of what is in the male mindset, and the male mind causes any
objectification. If we could realize that pornography has a practical use and be
wary of any signs of oppression or rejection towards women....hopefully, this
unique outlet can be preserved for those who need it, but not mainstreamed to
the point where it evokes a change in mentality.
I found the video a bit manipulative. I have no doubt that people struggle with
viewing porn excessively, but most normal people don't leave their family if
they have one or two glances -- and they don't beat themselves up with never
ending guilt. They stop and they move on with life. Take alcohol use as an
example, I'm a lapsed mormon but my wife is a true believer. I drink one or two
beers maybe once a month (with my wife's full knowledge btw). By the standards
of the church, I'm a raging alcoholic on the verge of losing my family; the
opposite is true. The video does a good job painting things in black and white
(literally ... notice the use of bright colors on the right and dark colors on
the left). Having counselled with one Bishop, who was a certified sex
therapist, in my younger years concerning my porn "addiction" (aka,
hormones), there are more shades of gray than the institutional Church would
care to admit (at this time). In closing, it has been my personal experience
that the more we focus on porn, the more it becomes a problem IMHO.
@Pagan: "'Utah No. 1 in online porn subscriptions..' That's the conclusion
of a Harvard economics professor who tracked subscriptions to online porn
sites."If I understand correctly, it is impossible to determine
the state porn subscriptions originate from. Further, subscriptions are not
needed to access all the porn that a viewer would care to access.-------------------------@screenname:"You're
right that people who use pornography can have productive, good lives."Then, what would be the problem?"But they'll never know
what they missed out on."Please explain what would be missed
out on.--------------------------@RantBully: "...
are they just enticed by their spouse's beauty yet when that spouse is not
present, they no longer seek sex?"Or, more specifically
perhaps, when that spouse is unresponsive.-------------------------To Grammy3 SOUTH JORDAN, UT: You
husband's problem was not porn.------------------------There are many beautiful things in this world... a mountain vista, a
astounding sunset, magnificent architectural creations, exquisite art like the
Mona Lisa, the human body, etc.
@jblackb:"Experts say that pornography, and sex is not the
problem, just like food isn't the problem for over-eaters."True. The problem, simply stated, is that porn is a problem because leaders
and other important people in high places say it's a problem. If folks would
stop saying it's a problem, it would stop being a problem."The
question I think you really have to ask is, how is lust playing out in your life
during those dry spells? Do you fantasize about women?"The
male of the species is endowed with continuous lust. The female is the
attractor and the male is the attracted. That's the way Mother Nature designed
the human. If that arrangement were to disappear the human race would disappear
off the face of the earth. Porn is a small price to pay to keep humans on the
@KJB1 Eugene, OR:"Lust is a part of love, and to pretend it
isn't is to deny one of the key parts of being human."Take lust
from the male and the human race disappears.@cjb:"Keep in mind that some of our greatest religious art in churches in
Europe and statues too, are of people who are not clothed."True. The 14 foot statue of the totally nude David in Rome is very
impressive.@Tommy:"If the LDS Church has a wide
spread problem with viewing porn, it ought to be counseling its married members
on becoming closer to their spouses through a good sex life..."Can you imagine a general church leader standing up in a meeting and exhorting
married couples to increase their sexual activities with each other? Never
Pagan, this is true, HOWEVER, a couple of things to keep in mind, which I
learned from reading the articles about this same topic.1) Utah also
uses the internet more than any other state (or is it, we have more computers
per capita?)2. The implication here is that it must be a Mormon
hypocrite problem. Well, let's research further. The TOP 3 places where porn
was searched for and/or used in Utah was: Salt Lake County (Liberal Dems), San
Juan County (60% native Americans), and Carbon County, I don't know the exact
stats but a large chunk of Hispanics live there for jobs in mining.So I guess if we follow the same logic as the implications of those who write
these articles and those who "always" seem to bring them up, then
liberal democrats, native Americans and Hispanics are the "real"
problem. I don't even know if Orem made the list.
WOW. It's amazing to me how many people on here actually defend porn. Really?!
It's just living proof that Satan has his grasp on people's minds. Amazing.
Wow. It's amazing to me how many people get on here and actually defend porn.
Really?! It's just proof that Satan really has a strong hold on people's hearts
and clouds their judgement. We live in a scary day and age. Crazy.
Re: Joggle | 12:36 p.m. July 17, 2011 "Not all pornography is the
same"Not all garbage at the city dump is the same .... but it
all falls under the classification of garbage.You can't roll around
in stink without having it stick to you, and you can't expose yourself to
pornography and come away a better person as a result. I always wonder about
the type of people who defend something that is proven to be destructive.
@Miss Piggie:"The female is the attractor and the male is the
attracted."Yes, and as soon as the female discovers this fact
she suddenly realizes just what power her sex is endowed with.@Nora323:"It's amazing to me how many people get on here and
actually defend porn."What's equally amazing is the number of
people on here who seem to blame porn for their family problems. As another has
posted, the problem with porn is that folks in important positions have declared
it verboten.Adam and Eve seemed to have little or no problem viewing
each other in the nude in the garden... until they bit into an apple. I submit
it was not the apple in the tree that was the problem but rather the pear on the
There have been multiple comments, such as Rifleman's which speak as if it is a
given that pornography is destructive. I do not see it, but perhaps I could be
convinced if there were some scientific studies which demonstrate porn's harm to
individuals. Merely saying it is like garbage or poison is not convincing. And
please no anecdotal evidence. IF your dad or husband was a jerk yet also looked
at porn, that doesn't necessarily mean it was the porn's fault because he
probably also drove a car and that doesn't mean cars make people jerks. (not to
mention most men are not jerks/adulterers/abusers etc even though nearly all of
them look at pornography) So if someone can find a credible study that shows
moderate porn consumption harms people, I will gladly change my mind on the
Nora, relax. Tell you what, you tell me what you think
"porn" is. Then we will talk about the defense of it. Rifleman, same thing: you tell us what you believe "porn" is.
God's most sacred gift, the joining of a man to a woman, has been abused and
perverted for so many years that it isn't sacred anymore to the world. It is
reduced to an animal act that demands the thrill of perversion. @Huldadans some science:This is an interesting bit I read online
recently: Studies show that frequent use of pornography produces a steady stream
of dopamine, which quickly starts to lose its effect on the pleasure center of
the brain. Thus, more porn is required to achieve the same high.As the
desensitization of the reward circuit continues, stronger and stronger stimuli
are required to boost the dopamine. In the case of narcotic addiction, the
addicted person must increase the amount of the drug to get the same high. In
pornography addiction, progressively more shocking images are required to
stimulate the person. That is why a pornography user can quickly go from
soft-core to hard-core to child pornography. The user, becomes, in a
sense, dehumanized. Many develop an antisocial lust devoid of most values and
the high they get from pornography becomes more important than real-life
relationships. -- yeah. enough said.
No man can serve two masters for he will love the one... In response to "a
little porn will not hurt you": You've got to be kidding! All addictions
start out as a little. How can one be anxiously engaged in serving the Lord if
he spends time worshiping the idol of Porn? Maybe some people are productive,
but they don't serve the Lord to the best of their ability for the Spirit will
not strive with them. We are commanded to not walk in crooked paths for the Lord
cannot do so. The Prophets, therefore God, has said Porn is filthiness. No
unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. A little always hurts. And often
turns into a LOT. With the instantaneous millions of pictures and videos
available on the internet for view over a short hour, one cannot argue the
Spirit is with someone viewing that. How can one stop those images from
re-entering their minds when they are with wife, co-workers, other ward members.
During worship or temple attendance? Keep eyes on tree of Life, and you will
love the commandments and Gods words won't "shaken" you or cause you
to defend filth.
Nora323:Just including the fact that dopamine releases are related
to pornography consumption doesn't make your argument scientific. Dopamine
"rewards" are associated with nearly all aspects of diet and sexual
activity, including the healthy sexual activity between spouses in a committed
relationship. Interesting, dopamine is a natural chemical triggered by a litany
of both normal and destructive behaviors, and is indiscriminate. I'm not
advocating pornography, however the mere release of dopamine - even on a
graduated scale - is of no real inherent consequence. In other words, it is a
normal part of human sexuality (dopamine), and not a nuance unique only to
pornography consumers. We all have an inherent drive and just have to live with
it. Huldadans was asking for some evidence that pornography is destructive.
Before we could ever address that we would have to state what exactly we mean by
destructive. Can pornography "ruin lives"? Yes, but is that an innate
consequence of pornography use or an outgrowth of how certain segments of
society choose to respond to pornography? That is getting closer to
understanding how it effects people.
Nora323 your comment is awesome and speaks truth. On the lightest side, porn
takes one away from the Gifts of the Spirit. It makes the special common. There
is no way to be anxiously engaged in good works with a heart turned to God when
ones' heart is turned towards idolatry. On the addictive side it leads (and has
ALWAYS Led)one to strip clubs, or prostitution or extra-marital affairs or
abuse. In some cases it leads to stealing in order to provide a means to pay for
these other activities and hide the loss of income. Sometimes it leads to
seeking lesser evils as a replacement..becoming addicted to video games or
gambling. All these destroy families & careers as they put the addicted
person ahead of everyone else in the family almost constantly in the categories
of time, attention and where family funds are spent. I know there are many out
there who feel they need help "knowing how to perform and please their
spouse". Newlyweds are advised to talk openly together and when necessary
ask a trusted parent a question. There are counselors too. It can be kept
respectful and clean. There is personal revelation also!
To: "I could be convinced pornography is destructive if there were some
scientific studies which demonstrate porn's harm to individuals.": Addicts
and victims of pornography readily admit its ill effects, why would you need
scientific proof? Many young men say that when they viewed porn on the internet
just a few hours it caused them to have lustful thoughts towards All women and
they struggled to think of anything else. Others admit it eventually wasn't
cutting it for them anymore so they had sex with girlfriends. These girls were
used and tossed aside. I'm sure that was destructive to their self worth! This
immorality causes the boy spiritual pain. Selfishness is destructive to every
relationship: example ignoring a wife to view porn is so hurtful. Viewers admit
it is the gateway to other sins. Venereal diseases are one negative result. I
feel sorry for anyone on these posts who defends pornography in so much naivete.
If you know someone who likes pornography you know pain and you don't ask the
ill effects. You see them, you feel them. If you partake a little you are on the
precipice of your own nightmare. Don't doubt the prophets. Korihor needed proof.
Nora323;I have no major qualms with anything you have posted about
porn and the damage that it can do to individuals and to families alike.
However, I do question the following comment: "That is why a pornography
user can quickly go from soft-core to hard-core to child pornography"I will submit that the dynamics, emotional problems and mental health
issues that combine to allow for attraction to and erotic sensation from child
porn are much more involved than just compulsive viewing of porn. However, that does bring up an interesting question as the homosexual
pederasts(aka intergenerational dating/transgenerational relationships google
for clarification) claim that their sexual proclivites are just the natural
outcome of them being themselves and that they are a victim of some kind of a
quasi geneitic, pscyhlogical, hormonal anomoly due to no fault or action of
their own rendered them pederasts. In the end it is all about
personal responsiblity.As you are most likely a woman what is your
stance on LDS women who frequent romance chat rooms and compulsively read
Very thought provoking video driving the point across about how just small
choices we make can make such a huge difference. Even if you didn't get the
references to the porn, you could see the impact in the family's quality of life
with the husband's selfless, thoughtful choices, as he put his family first
(presenting wife with flowers, coloring with kids, going to the movies together,
etc), contrasted with his selfish choices (ignoring his family)--both types of
choices, as shown here, were small, but had significant effect on the entire
family. There is wisdom in Elder Holland's counsel, whether you are LDS or not.
I am LDS and believe that there is safety in following it as closely as
porn reduces man to the level of an animal and the asperations of such,porn only
degrades and can not exhult
What is thought provoking here is that Deseret News censors opposing opinions
that are supported by research.
"What is thought provoking here is that Deseret News censors opposing
opinions that are supported by research."Everyone on here knows
that there are PLENTY of anti LDS comments that are allowed on here. Everyone
knows how much half of the people on here like to quote statistics involving gay
marriage, etc.If the DN refused a comment, it had nothing to do with
the comment simply being a differing opinion or because of the research
@Voice of ReasonNone of the comments I've tried to post have been
directed at any LDS nor was I commenting about gay marriage. There was no reason
that I can see as to why they weren't posted other than it was a differing
opinion and was reasonably supported by both research and logic. I see comments
easily getting through here that are mostly unsupported opinions and religious
justifications with few exceptions.
Some of the comments on here saying that the church is making too big a deal of
this issue would be hilarious if they weren't so stupid. Here's a little logic
to set you all straight:IF Elder Holland is a prophet/apostle THEN (by
definition) he speaks for God.THEREFORE, when Elder Holland says that
pornography is dangerous and you should stay away from it, he speaks for God
regarding pornography and you should probably listen.Here's what I don't
get: for those of you who are members of the LDS church and say that pornography
is okay in small doses, etc. - if you believe that Holland, et. al are
prophets/apostles and speak for God, then you are essentially saying that God is
wrong. And if you don't believe that Holland is an apostle/prophet, then why in
the world are you a member of the church? Sleep in on Sunday mornings, for
crying out loud! For those of you who aren't LDS, why do you even care what
Elder Holland says? You obviously don't think he has the authority to speak for
God, so what does it matter to you? Sheesh.
@huldadans,Not all truth is supported by scientific studies. If you
restrict yourself to empirical evidence as the only acceptable epistimology, you
will miss out on other ways of knowing that are equally valid. Pornography
obviously doesn't cause the kind of damage you can see, or the kind of damage
that can be measured, but it does cause spiritual damage - so far there is no
study or test to measure that one. If you believe that God can see far-reaching
spiritually dangerous consequences of actions that we often can't, and that the
leaders of the Church (like Elder Holland) are trying to warn us of those
dangers, then it won't matter whether or not there are any scientific studies
(yet) that show other, more measureable negative effects. If you don't accept
those two things as true, then it really shouldn't matter to you what Elder
Holland says anyway, right?
God is Unchanging and a law changed by man does Not mean it was changed by God.
Activities engaged in by the masses do not mean they're not Immoral! God's
example: Compassion for people, not sin. Whats Porn? When one studies the
words of prophets and the Savior in the Scriptures and seeks truth you find it.
Definitions of porn? What good will one man's definition or perspective mean to
you? God's law and definition and judgment are all that count. Seek personal
revelation. A man's definition is imperfect and may promote justification for
sin. Incidentally, studying Satan teaches us he promotes compassion for sin! He
demonizes those who do not embrace sin freely. He mocks Eat, drink & be
merry for tomorrow we die. A successful campaign ad for Satan was "What
happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas."The need to hide or the shame that
is felt from sin due to society or religious expectations and commandments may
complicate things, but they don't erase the fact that all aspects of pornography
are a sin. Whether you partake a morsel or become an addict. It is harmful to
all involved! I can list 50 ways if I had room!
Agentuntomyself:I disagree with your premise that Holland speaks for
God, or that there is a spiritual epistemology that leads to "knowing"
real stuff. However, I do appreciate that you are willing to acknowledge that
the real intrinsic harm of pornography is based on ones religious ideology, and
not some apparent empirical research. At the very least this appropriately
contextualizes the harm, as opposed to trying to bolster the case as though it
transcends religious ideology. There is no correlation that "soft-core
pornography" naturally progresses a user to child pornography. Such
allegations are patently absurd. Still, is there a social harm in using
pornography? It would hurt the feelings of my wife at least, so I don't need a
clinical argument to understand that there is some "harm".
A few years ago my then-girlfriend asked me if I had ever looked at porn. When I
said no she was stunned. A mutual friend of ours, and the nicest, most pure (I
guess that's the word I want to use) guy in our 80 person dorm walked by and she
point-blank asked him if he's seen porn and he readily answered yes. That was my
turn to be stunned. I feel like if both members of the relationship are fine
with porn, then it's likely to not end up being much of an issue at all in the
relationship. But... if either isn't fine with it then that's going to have to
be resolved preferably beforehand or else there will be issues down the road.
@mormoncowboyIf you don't believe that the prophets and apostles speak for
God, why in the world would you call yourself a Mormon? It is one of the main
premises of Mormon doctrine that they DO speak for God - and if you argue
otherwise then you don't understand the doctrine at all. I just moved to Utah a
few years ago, and I have to say that some of you Utah Mormons kill me. You
like the church as a "nice lifestyle" because it promotes family
values and good neighbors, and all that, but you couldn't care less whether or
not you actually believe what the Church really teaches. It seems to me that it
would be much easier just to be go to some generic Christian church. You can get
all the same warm fuzzy feelings about God and family without having to put in
the kind of work associated with callings,As for not believing in a
non-empirical way of knowing something, what do think the spirit is?
Agentuntomyself:I was born and raised Mormon in Mormon country. In
that way, I am a Mormon. As far as the religious "stuff", I don't
believe any of it. I don't happen to think that the Church is a "nice
livestyle", in fact I find it quite intrusive. I don't even think it
promotes real family values, or at least, the family is secondary to Church
loyalty. Personally, I'm not wasting my time with any "church". As for your question, what do I think the spirit is? I think it is
nothing but a mental contrivance. It can't be measured, or objectively observed,
nor does it have to issue consistent revelations from person to person. I doubt
it very highly on these grounds.
agentuntomyself,Are you serious? Not long ago, and on several
different occasions, Church leaders explicitly told members NOT to tell other
members of the Church to leave the church or to leave Utah.You harp
on others for not being as "faithful" as you claim to be, but in so
doing, you disregard the counsel of the very Church leaders you are trying to
drive others away from!Seems like you could use some serious
@southmtnmanYou seriously misunderstood my comment. In no way did I tell
anyone that they should leave the church or leave Utah. And I never harped on
anyone for not being as "faithful" as me, whatever that means. I was
simply asking the question: why would someone who doesn't believe anything that
the church teaches call themselves a Mormon? It was an honest question. I have
been a member of the church my whole life and have served in lot of heavy
callings that required lots of time and sacrifice, and if I didn't have a
testimony that the theology part of it was true, I certainly wouldn't be member
of the church or call myself a Mormon. I was asking the question to get some
clarity on what the draw of the church is for people who dismiss the theological
parts of it.I would never tell anyone to leave the church, nor would
I ever claim to be more faithful than anyone else. You read something into my
comment that simply wasn't there. Maybe next time you will read more carefully
before you start throwing accusations around.
agentuntomyself:I could not possibly agree more with every last
comment you've made.The critic counter-arguments to your posts have
been off-point with numerous examples.1) "Not all truth is
supported by scientific studies. If you restrict yourself to empirical evidence
as the only acceptable [epistemology], you will miss out on other ways of
knowing that are equally valid."Science generally only uses
inductive reasoning. If it rained the last 20 years, it will next year. This is
only probably, not actual. Probability has its worth for making decisions, but
is not definite and should never be the only source of information. Empirical
evidence is only as accurate as the observer accounts for it, another
problem.---"why would someone who doesn't believe
anything that the church teaches call themselves a Mormon?"This
and your latest comment- Again, I agree completely! Many people on here
literally say "I'm Mormon, but the church is wrong on every point they
stand for" - There are obviously logistical problems there. In fact, I
think it's a growing trend and worth addressing very seriously. I'm even
creating a blog to intellectually discuss LDS/political issues just because of
those types of comments.
I see the issue differently. Porn, at the v.least is a manifestation that part
of ones life is not a quality experience. Sex between married people should be
intimate and addressing the desires and needs of each other. As long as that is
consensual and between of age adults, the LDS Church has no business in their
bedroom. Though does anyone remember the 1982 First Presidency letter regarding
oral sex as an impure and unholy practice? It was quickly forgotten and
discarded. Clearly not inspired counsel!Here is a thought...there
are 168 hours per week. Assuming a full time job, forty hours is worked...If you
have kids (say) five hours per day looking after them is 35 per week, 56 hours
for sleep, full church activity, minmum of twelve hours per week, perhaps...
that leaves 29 hours for running the household, chores, shopping, socializing,
visiting family and sexual intimacy.Perhaps if the Church asked for
a little less time and commitment from its members, they could use some of that
time to share deeper intimacy. Ten or so hours a week of fulfilling and mutually
satisfying intimacy would go a long way at cutting down porn usage,