Ok. I am sending my check.
"Does the average engineering student or theater arts major care about the
football team? Does the kid who's working nights to pay for tuition and
overpriced textbooks want to pay for an NFL farm team?"Yes,
that bio-engineering student who's working a night job and trying to keep his
GPA up so he can get into med school is really going to be excited about having
his student fees jacked so that Utah won't have to share the PAC 12 cellar with
I keep seeing people quote the $20 million per year number quoted for the PAC 12
TV contract, but the Cal AD has publicly discussed that the early years of this
contract will only bring $9-10 million to the fully vested league teams. This
looks like a mighty big hole for the Utes if they are in an arms race against
programs that already spend substantially more each year.
Looks like I'm stuck here in the basement for a few more years.
pac 10 plus 2 ain't all that great, usc on probabation and can't play in a bowl
for the next few years. oregon is okay. the washington and arizona teams are
average at best.
And this is news?
And every one thought that the advertisers and the media people were paying for
this huge PAC 10.2 windfall. LOL
Got my tix. Too many naysayers. If you don't like it, don't watch.
This article is disingenuous. The University of Utah received over $450 million
in research and training awards in 2009-2010. Their net revenue in 2007 (last
year for which I could easily find data) was over $2.3 billion.So
you're going to look at a $32 million athletic department budget and tell me,
"These days, big universities have become football corporations with a
school attached, not vice versa." What a load of garbage.
Is there a reason a program that's going to be rolling in the dough needs to
gouge poor working students?
Re: Crimson UteAs a university faculty member who has been at least
partially responsible for bringing in over $500K in research funding in the past
year, that's exactly the point: we've brought in the money. If I want to spend
more on research, I write grants and, once the money arrives, I work within that
budget. I don't increase my lab size and ask the students to pay for that
increase. While I'm happy for the university's successful transition to the
Pac-12 and the increased visibility this brings to our academic programs, it
makes no sense to increase the burden of the athletics budget on the backs of
The only way the students should be paying for the athletic program is through
ticket and merchandise sales.
RE Crimson Ute - GREAT point we are the farm leagues for corporate America. In
most industrialized nations corporations pay taxes that are specifically
designated to pay for the cost of the trained employees they currently receive
for free. Charge the students for an education that produces engineers,
biologists, chemists, nurses etc. for big business. Corporate Socialism.Here's another one word reason = Alums. I just joined the Crimson club
for the first time in 12 years. Re ERDoc: It makes no sense to
increase the burden of the athletics budget on the backs of students. Huh? How
much does your ER room pay for the training of the doctors and nurses. I'm
betting it's about $0.00.
Raising ticket prices is supply and demand.Raising student fees is
garbage.I wounder what schools are losing money, AQ or non-AQ
schools? If it's mostly non-AQ schools then why doesn't the governing body,
NCAA, create a revenue generating scheme like a playoff system?
I've paid for my tickets... happily so.You get what you pay for and
we get caffeine in or diet coke.
Oh my, my, my. All these fits of jealousy. It is almost enough to make one wish
we were going independant.
A big problem with the cost, is that the more attended and popular sports like
football, are forced to give money to sports that only the athletes and their
families go to. Especially with womens sports. The fan draw isn't there, their
ticket sales suffer, so football is forced to subsidize the other athletes.Instead of making college sports a mini-socialists state. Let them
compete. Let these other sports become creative in getting fans. Football
didn't start with 100,000 screaming fans. It's something they have built up year
after year. The Utah football team used to play on a field with wood bleachers.
Now they have a stadium and a band. They didn't always have that.Get
political correctness out of sports. Save it for the classroom, where some
professors work hard to indoctrinate students to follow the annointed one.
Notice how the talk turned from how the university would be raising ticket
prices and tuition to how government grants should be and were being used to
fund department budgets? It's not just the students and fans paying for all
this. It's every taxpayer paying for every grant at every university. We all love our college athletic programs but they are just part of whats
wrong with big government. And big government is whats wrong with America these
days. Something has to change.
If students object to the fees at Utah, let them attend BYU.
Yeah, Independence is way better.And cheaper too.
Blame it on the officials: The research done at the University levels are a
huge contributor to our national and international economy. They provide a
highly skilled and productive work force. These are grant programs that pay for
themselves, that is why they are there and why they should stay. These grants
are also not solely funded by taxpayers. There are tons of privately funded
grants out there provided by lots of companies, not just for education or
research, but a lot of other activities as well.
Since football at most schools is self-supporting, and supports most other
athletic programs, why is there a need to raise fees to fund increased football
needs as this article indicates? Why not let the football program use the
revenues it generates to fund the increase in associated costs for the new
conference alignment and let the other non-revenue generating sports sink or
swim? Oh, I just realized it probably has something to do with Title IX. It's
really a political issue after all. It's really not fair that the
ski team or women's tennis should lose funding because there are more people who
would rather see football. Not fair at all so let's gouge all the students and
falsely blame it on the football program because of the increase in costs to be
competitive with the rest of the conference.
Doug, thanks for dumping on the U. It was very enlightening. This news hasn't
been covered at all in the last twelve months. I am shocked, shocked at this
news. Utah is a pioneering state with a "can do" attitude but maybe
it would have been better if the pioneers had stayed in Nauvoo instead of
venturing out west. Let's cancel the celebration on Friday and head back to the
Mountain West Conference. Get Craig Thompson on the phone and see if he will
let the U return.
@PAC-12 Envy...Independence is way better.And cheaper too...Who do you think fund BYU sport programs?
I agree with uteology. Raise ticket prices and let the fans pay for the
increased costs. Students should not have to pay for it through increased fees
or tuition. This should be true at every single school. I know that it isn't,
but it should be.I would willingly pay more, and have, when BYU has
deemed it is needed. I certainly understand that utah now needs to increase
spending to be competitive in their new conference but charging students, who
have nothing to do with it, is not the way to go. utah fans have the
opportunity to show that they are a legitimate fanbase. They tell us here all
the time that they are legit, that they are growing, that they are not fair
weather. Well prove it. Pay for what you are getting.
Now the University of Utah has followed the rest of the state with the moniker
"keeping up with the Joneses".How dare we stay within a
budget while we watch all of our neighbors have fancy weightrooms, new uniform
designs, and fancy lockers! Not fair! Not fair! Not fair!
zarathrustra:??? What jealous posts. Did you actually read them. I see a
lot of complaining and a lot of support but no jealousy. If your trying to bring
BYU into this, they already have excellent facilities that rival the best PAC
schools, and then some. Utah will have to upgrade their facilities
in a major way to compete with the facilities the top PAC schools have. That
won't guarantee success but Utah has proven teams that don't have big athletic
budgets can beat those who do somtimes. Utah will nearly always get the
top recruits that want to come to Utah, the rest they will have to fight for.
That is why they need facilities that will blow away the recruits. Ticket prices
will be pushed as much as possible and should get them an extra couple of
million per year if the stadium sells out. Requiring students to pay fees they
don't agree with is extremely controversial. That should be a voluntary fee for
students who want to attend the events.Having said that, Utah will be in a
great financial position and within 3-5 years, they should be where they want to
be. Good luck to them.
skywalker | 11:39 p.m. June 28, 2011 Palo Alto, CAIs there a reason
a program that's going to be rolling in the dough needs to gouge poor working
students?-----------Yes, but it isn't a good one: Because
"everybody does it."
Excellent article. It is all about "keeping up with the Jones.'" As
bad as the fact that student fees increase is the fact the budget went up 2000%
and not a dime will go into athletes' pockets. This at a time when according to
a PBS special, scholarships fall $3000 short of paying for a student athlete's
EDUCATIONAL expenses. But of course, "we need a $16 million building"
and coach Whitt's salary, a FRACTION of which could put that extra $3,000 in
football player's pockets. In fact, I'll bet Whitt gets a salary increase
within the next three years that would cover that $3,000 per player.No one distrusts unions more than I, including the NBA, NFL, MLB, etc.,
unions, but it is time for an NCAA athletes' union.
Duckhunter: The LDS Church subsidizes BYU to the tune of nearly two-thirds the
cost. That means all those folks paying tithing who will never attend BYU are
paying for somebody else's education. Fine by me; but seriously, don't tell us
to prove that we are legit by paying our way to a better league and academic
standard when you are living like a trust fund baby. Your education at BYU would
be 5 or 6 times as much money if the Church weren't subsidizing it. (Again, use
my tithing to get an education, I'm good with that...we all should be. And we
should all be happy that our tax dollars are used to educate the next generation
who will become our caretakers). But please, know your place.
Does anybody know how much BYU has paid/is paying for their facilities (and how
much they are pumping into their football program)? It would be nice to have
that number to sort out how much of the Utah increase is attributable to joining
th PAC-12 and how much is attributable to raising bar bar (and trying to be a
contender all the time rather than part of the time).
TJ; Good point, at the time of registration each student should be given the
opportunity to contribute to the athletic department by buying their $1,000
ticket. This ticket would get them entrance into the sports events. The student
could use their ticket or sell it, that way, all who want to support the program
will and there is no need to charge those who don't. The others could buy their
tickets on a event by event and game by game.This would really show
what the support is.As to the Y, I give my money with the knowledge
it is going to be used wisely and the best way. Before any comments about tithes
etc., I give my money VOLUNTARILY, not have it taken without my permission.
Dutchman;The article is about reality, not dumping. Like it or not, this
is the way it is. The rest of the PAC teams have been getting 15-20 million per
year for quite awhile. CO has been getting BCS $$ also. Alum donates 2-3 times
that much or more to schools like Stanford, USC, UCLA(even in bad years) and
some other PAC schools. Utah has got to put a lot of $$ into their football
program and other sports athletic facilities in order to compete for better
recruits. Then, if the football team sells out all their games for a couple of
years they will probably want to expand their stadium for a hundred million or
so to bring it up to PAC standards. This year, Utah is probably worse off
financially than they were in the MWC. It will get better each year and when
they have their full share of the PAC pie, they will be in a great position to
compete facility wise. They may have good athletic success before then and I
hope they do, but this their reality for now.
Mt Rushmore says:"....so that Utah won't have to share the PAC
12 cellar with Washington State."The ol' "Utah will be
just like Washington State" is one of my favorite "insults" from
those who wish ill for the Utes - because it's so pathetic!So we are
to believe that Utah, three-time conference champion, and top 3 of the
conference 6 of the last 8 seasons, will be the 11th or 12th best team in the
Pac-12?ute alumni says:"pac 10 plus 2 ain't all
that great, usc on probabation and can't play in a bowl for the next few years.
oregon is okay. the washington and arizona teams are average at best.""Oregon is okay?" They just played for the national
championship! EVERYONE in the national press says they should be a top 10
finisher again. When people talk about USC being down, that's
compared to the USC we're used to seeing. Experts go on record claiming that
the Trojans have a chance to win every game they play, and may be the favorites
to win the South. Sagarin says the "average" 3 teams
you listed all finished the season ranked in the Top 30.
@jmort;No, BYU is a private university, and does not have to tell
anyone what it pays for stuff. Nothing wrong with that.The U is a
state-run facility and as such reaps both the benefits and detriments of being
such.I get tired of people comparing the U and BYU. Apples and
oranges, in many, many ways.
This is a silly article and additional silly arguements!Sure let the
ticket holders bear all of the cost, fine. Lets price those student tickets at
their true value. Because of the student athletic fees (~$170/year) students can
attend any athletic event fee of additional charge and can get preferred seating
in football for an extra $30. They can also get a buddy pass for another $170.
So a student can get two tickets in E37 for roughly ~$370/year. Season ticket
holder are paying anywhere from $1500 to $1020 for equivalent seating elsewhere
in the stadium. The value of those student seats range from $750 to $210
each/year.Any student interested in paying the true value?
Already applications from new students particularly amoung freshman are way up
at the U because there is a sense that graduating from a University that runs
with an elite academic crowd like the PAC 12 schools has its benefits. It won't
be long (I would guess about six years) before Utah is a member of the elite
class of AAU. If students feel those associations have benefits and it comes
from being in the PAC 12 then let the students vote on whether to raise their
fees for joining the PAC 12 and let them debate the value of it. There is a
price to pay for any endeavor. You can advance or stay put.
I am a student at the U, so I'll put some perspective on this.Yes,
actually, a major portion of the student body cares about the athletic teams.
This is different from years ago I am sure, but this is a new generation where
engineers and computer scientists also like sports.I pay for the
"student athletic fee", the crimson club donation, and a season
football ticket in the chair sections. Yes, it would be nice if the student
athletic fee counted toward it, but I understand that it can be used elsewhere,
so I use it for bball, volleyball, and other events to get my money's worth from
it.I knew last year as soon as the Pac 12 announcement came out that
more funding needs, including higher ticket prices, would be coming. But thanks
for telling us that a year after we all knew, Doug.I've studied
economics, and I know that when you have one of the largest student sections in
D1 football, with 7000 Muss season ticket holders, and over 32,000 paid season
ticket holders, and only 45,000 seats, supply and demand curves show the price
must go up.
Losing seasons are really going to hurt ticket revenue. Right now football and
basketball are lined up to get serious beatings, basketball especially. The
football team has no qb that has played the new system and freshman running
backs who have never played D-1. They could do fine in the MWC but the PAC will
suffocate them. In fact the only team that has a chance of a winning record next
year is the girls gymnastics team. The basketball team...well, they still feel
like they got Jimmered...by everyone.You get what you ask for. Whitt
will be out of a job in less than three years, cruel u fans will claim they need
a high profile coach (Urban you still broadcasting?) And Norm Chow will be
retired. In fact he only took the Utah job to save face getting out of UCLA
before he was fired.
Waiting till the money comes in to make improvements, or bonding against future
revenues, when there are plenty of people and alumni around who can help us
build a better program and university sounds like a bid for failure and I'm glad
the U isn't following your plan. If we don't improve everything we
can in rapid fashion to compete, it would be writers like Doug that would come
out and say "I told you so, you can't compete, you're mediocre, etc."
"a $16 million football facility that's good enough to house an
NFL team." I like how he rags on spending $16 million on a facility that
has been needed for over a decade. How much did BYU spend on their indoor
training facility that can house a 747? Probably a lot more than $16 Mil, but
I'm sure he praised that expenditure."the Utes have been doing
just fine with their current budget." True, but I've never heard a U coach
or official say their goal is to do "just fine" in the Pac 12.
Again, let's check some facts before crying about the increase in student fees.
Mr. Robinson says, "Some students pay as much as $1,000 a year to cover
athletics." Not at Utah.A check of the student fees on the
university's website shows that for the Summer 2011 through Spring 2012
semesters, the per-student athletic fee is $82.36. I called the Income
Accounting office to ask what the fee was before the increase, and they told me
it was $76.22. So the huge, burdensome increase was less than six bucks.Again, this article is sensationalist journalism. The University of Utah
(and most other universities) is first and foremost a place of learning and
education. Certainly there's a little room for some athletic competition and
entertainment as well.
I'm a Ute fan. I support the move to the PAC 12. But forcing students to make
huge donations in the form of student fees is wrong. Very wrong.Tuition has skyrocketed in the past couple of decades. And textbooks are way
out of line (some professors force students to pay $150 for the book the
professor wrote - tell me that's not a conflict). Students don't need any
additional burdens.But if U students were paying $1,000 each in fees
that go towards athletics, that would equal roughly $25,000,000 per year in
revenue just from student fees. So I seriously doubt they're paying that much.
universities are "pursing a growing, full-scale football business."A business that millions of college students and graduates from all
walks of life enjoy participating in and following, and one which provides
writers like Doug a job so they can write about it in news columns each week.And so what if football, or athletics in general, has become a business?
What has happened to America's drive for business, entrepreneurship,
leadership, and management? Did Doug even think about how many students,
graduates, or general American citizens are employed or have jobs because there
are football teams that play each other every week during the fall?This "business" includes employees from janitors to announcers, from
concessions workers to marketing managers, from 3rd party contractors to TV
networks, from team managers to head coaches.All while giving
hundreds of students each year at each school an education that is paid for.Its not perfect, and there are things about the "business" we
would all change. But at least football and the people involved with it have
figured out how to create jobs.
JMort -BYU released a news article stating sporting events brought
in 48.5 Million dollars in the 2009-2010 academic year and 42 Million dollars
were spent on those sporting events, leaving a net increase of 4.5 Million.This was released by BYU while discussing the state of their sporting
programs with WCC Presidents.J-TX is also right: generally, BYU does
not have to, and generally does not, release financial information to the
public. This was a rather unusual case and gives us a glimpse into the health of
sports at BYU.
This opinion piece needs more homework. The U tuition rate is one of the best
around, and certainly one of the best in the PAC12. A fast, soft comparison:(All undergrad rates & assume 2 semesters = 1 year & 12+ units = full
time).1. U of U: $3381 res, $10694 Nonres per semester.2. BYU: $2210
LDS, $4420 non-LDS per semester.3. UCLA: $13500 per year res, $28600 per
year nonres.4. AZ State: $4860 per semester res, $11160 per semester
nonres.And U tuition may be halved if a member of the immediate
family is a state employee ( U of U, U Hospital, etc.), or use your GI Bill, or
join ROTC or the Utah National Guard, etc. 'Where there's a will there's a
way'.So clearly UofU tuition is one of the best deals in the West,
and especially if you combine an Associate's Degree at SLCC with two years at
the U. As an adjunct faculty member, I know the U is a fantastic
life-changing personal investment.--- Got my tix, looking forward to
FB & BB & PAC12, ugottaluvit baby!!!
3grandslams,Your comment is pretty funny coming from someone in Iowa
where last season Utah beat Iowa State on your home turf, what was it, something
like 68-14? I remember a quote from the Iowa St head coach in one of your local
papers saying Utah looked like an NFL team. Of course the QB Utah had then was
the same one that is back this year. Good luck in your big tough Big 12-2
conference.Brigham Young led the pioneers out of Nauvoo and into
Iowa for a winter stay. Maybe if Brigham had pointed out the true price of
going all the way to the Salt Lake Valley they would have just decided to stay
there in Iowa. But no, they moved on to the Salt Lake Valley where Brigham
founded the University of Deseret (now Utah) in 1850. So, the price was paid
and now the University he founded is reaping some of the benefit by associating
with other great universities in the west.
Oops - my mistake. BYU brought in 46.5 Million, not 48.5 Million, for the
2009-2010 academic year.Do I have to give back my Accounting degree
well uh I'll tell ya what well uh yeah uh well anyway you look at it uh its
kinda well ya know. some do -n- some dont ..
Its funny how I haven't read one comment bashing on Utah, but there are some ute
fans trying to bash on BYU on this board its kind of funny.
Nice work, Crimson. Looks like Robinson should have done a bit more homework.
Good things are happening on the hill, and they are spreading to little old
@ KamUte 10:26"Got my tix. Too many naysayers. If you don't
like it, don't watch."I am happy not to wathc, but as a
taxpayer I don't want a dime of my money going to fund football (or soccer,
basketball, gymnastics, water polo, etc) other than intramural level which
allows all students to participate.There is something obscene about
full ride scholarships for athletes and coaches pulling down salaries higher
than our top Generals for their involvement in sports.Nothing wrong
with doing it if every dollar freely comes from fans willing to pay out money
for it, but it is a huge waste of tax dollars if any is being forcibly
confiscated from taxpayers.
I work for a company that overstaffed based on perceived future demand. That
demand never arrived. We burned too much VC money and had to go and get more,
thus diluting our overall value. We had to lay off people to reduce costs. It
hasn't been pretty, and it seems the Utes are headed down the same path. Utes
should continue to grow within existing revenues and expect success to build
over the long-term. Keeping up with the Joneses is NOT the way to grow and will
only lead to trouble. Kudos to Washington State for accepting mediocrity but
for not abusing public $$. Utes would do very well to follow that example,
hopefully the Utah State Legislature will demand cuts to sports programs when
the next budget shortfalls to fund the University arrive.
What about the assertion that the Ute athletic budget is from its revenues and
private donations. Ute posters keep stating that. Why hit up the poor students?!
Instead of comparing U student fees and costs to BYU you should be comparing
them to those in your new league. What does a ticket to a USC or Oregon home
game cost? What do these students pay in fees? What do their coaches make? How
much revenue to they take in from tickets, donations, etc.? Your new reality is
not BYU (you have left us in the rear view mirror per many of your fans). It is
now time to pay the piper or fall to the cellar. What's it going to be? Rise to
the top or become a Washington State? Can't wait to watch how the Utes succeed
in their new conference. Since I'm a Cougar fan and graduate I don't have to pay
to watch, but I don't have to be negative either. Good luck Utes and make your
former rivals proud. Your successes will only make our matches against the
former heated foe that much sweeter.
@hymn to the silentWe aren't discussing education. I have no problem
with the state subsidizing Utah students education. My tax dollars go to that
subsidizing and I'm ok with that. We are talking about funding the athletic
department on the backs of students. BYU doesn't do that and neither should
utah. If you want to have a personal issue with me I'm fine with that. But you
should actually address the subject and not try to bring in some outside issue
that has nothing to do with it just so you can argue with me. How ridiculous
that was. Maybe you should know your place. LOL!
Johnny Triumph and DN Subscriber:The Legislature and the Tax Payer
do not fund University athletics, ever. Tax dollars go to the education of
students only. They do not fund any of the buildings used by the athletic
department.And while we're on the subject of the legislature, if you
look at the U's recent budget report, the U's annual budget is approximately
$2.5 Billion in annual expenditure. The legislature funds about $400 Million of
that, putting the Legislature's (taxpayer's) contribution to education at the U
at about 8%. So you have nothing to worry about. You as a taxpayer
barely fund education at the university at all. By those numbers it is almost
entirely privately funded. In fact, the U's biggest revenue generator, at about
$1B annually is the University's very successful health network.
Any comparison some of the ute fans on here want to try and make with BYU are
completely inconsequential. BYU is a private university, it is funded by a
private entity and how it uses its funds are its business alone.Utah
is a public university funded by tax payers. I have no problem with that. As a
resident of utah and tax payer I want to see the flagship university of our
state being a top quality university with top quality programs in all areas
including athletics. I don't mind my tax dollars contributing to those
things.But in the area of athletics I do not think they should put
any of the burden on the backs of students. I also do not think students should
get radically discounted access to athletic events. They should have to pay for
them if they want to have them. But that is vonluntary, not involuntarily added
to the cost of tuition, fess, etc.Utah fans need to pay these costs.
You claim you are top line fans so prove it. If you trust chris hill and he says
they need it then step up and pay it yourselves.
Here is a thought on athletics. Why are schools involved in athletics? They
are supposed to be educating people. All athletics should be run like AAU
programs, if you want to be involved then you pay your fee and play let the high
schools and colleges worry about education.
It would have been nice if Doug had listed the new ticket prices and compare
them to the old ones. I
know there are all kinds of arguments coming from this story but what makes me
mad is the increase in the gymnasticts season ticket prices. The utes have been
competing against the pac 10 in gymnastics forever, but now we are in the pac 12
we will be paying more to see the same schools. I know that most people don't
care about gymnastics, but they do hold the attendence record for gymnastics and
the place is packed almost every meet. It's kind of like the Ute gymnastics fans
are being punished for this one.As for the other sports, I am okay with
spending more to watch them play.
Johnny Triumph and DN Subscriber,Not to worry. None of your tax
dollars goes to support Utah athletics, in fact your tax dollars contribute very
little to an education at the U. The only reason the Legislature puts any
education money into the U at all is because they want to be able to say that
the state has a flag ship university. Have you ever noticed how often the
politicians like saying that?
Duckhunter: We do pay for it. Many of us pay more than our seasons tickets
worth. Fundraising for U athletics is going very well, thank you. And why
shouldn't students pay for a program that attracts National attention and
fundraising for all programs? Naive to think that every department at a
University works in a vacuum. They complement each other creating a package---
Students fees support all University endeavors, (albeit only 8%, which has been
mentioned) Never set foot in the engineering building myself, but happy to see
my fees support the great students coming out of there. And by the way, it's not
compulsory to go to the University of Utah...for purely an academic experience
Westminster is a great option and much more in line with what many detractors
here are calling for. What they don't understand is that an academic experience
that personalized and student-centric costs more in tuition. Can't have it both
ways. Most U students are actually fine paying an extra six bucks to be in the
pac 12. The benefits far outweigh the costs.
Is it worse charge students to pay for athletics, or to use tithing money to pay
When I went to the U I never used the Marriot Library. I now realize part of my
student fees and tuition went to pay for the library (which I didn't use).I want my money back. Whaaaaa. Whaaaaaa.
My kids have all attended the U and paid the extra student fees in addition to
tuition. They are also active LDS members who pay tithing. Duckhunter has
pointed out on several occasions how BYU athletic facilities are funded not only
with private donations but also with university funds that come from tithing
donations. So, as I understand it, my kids not only pay student fees to support
Utah athletics they also pay LDS church tithing funds that are used to build
BYU's outstanding athletic facilities. I don't believe any of my kids have a
problem with that but it should be on the record in this discussion.
Tithing doesn't pay for BYU.
Actually, some money that comes from the tithes of LDS adherents most certainly
does go to BYU. Where that money is used is undisclosed. If I were to guess (and
this is only a guess), the majority of the funds do not go to finance Athletics.
It probably goes more toward facilities, employees, etc. According to BYU, they
brought in enough funds through their sporting programs to offset all the costs
- with some to spare.
The financial side remains my least favorite aspect of the sport. But when it
comes to student pocketbooks, I feel a need to post.I think
Duckhuner is right on this one. If rising costs are indeed
necessary, they should be paid for by the fans, not the students per se. Even at
6 bucks, raising student fees should be looked at with suspicion. But the Ute football team needs to stay within budget and not raise the
ceiling. Honestly, is now the time to live beyond your means? I agree that
decent facilities are needed to fund the team, but excesses as we see at big
budget schools don't always yield high results. Finally, I think
that student tix should remain as affordable as possible for the students.
Attending sporting events are an excellent part of the college experience and
having a mass of students at the game is quintessential. Go MUSS!
According to an article ran is the Desnews about 4 or so months back, BYU
(unlike the U) was running it's athletic program in the black. Football being
the biggest revenue maker. In other words, they were bringing in enough funds to
run the athletic department. So why is are U making unsubstantiated claims that
it is run via tithing? As for athletic facilities, if they are
facilities that the student body will benefit from, then I don't see a problem
with the students helping to fund them. If they are, for example, facilities
(such as a athlete-only weight room or locker room) then the students shouldn't
be tapped for that. That's my opinion.
"Oops, nobody bothered to mention the price. It turns out that this Pac-12
move is like buying a car; when you go to close the deal, there are a lot of
other fees nobody bothered to tell you about."Well theres
carmax to trade in the old red station wagon.
@Collin Card"BYU (unlike the U) was running it's athletic
program in the black."The way I see it, that is easy for BYU to
do, and not just because of Church affiliation. BYU has also had the benefit of
sitting back and collecting over $1 M a year from revenues generated by Utah and
TCU playing in BCS games.Utah and TCU, on the other hand, as
participants in those games, only broke even on the costs from attending those
games, because of how the money is distributed among the MWC and non-BCS
schools.What was the figure? $4 M or so in the black? Maybe they've
just saved the million or so they collected those years from each of Utah's and
TCU's 2 BCS games.As others have pointed out, Utah and BYU are
structurally and financially different and are really apples and oranges.
The operation of the Athletic programs at BYU are operated in the black and
without tithing funds. That is not the issue. The facilities (brick and
mortar) and the maintenance of those facilities is another issue and they do get
tithing money. BYU can justify this use of tithing funds because the facilities
are on campus and most likely used by the general student body and club teams.
No problem with that. But it is a bit disingenuous for some to comment that
students at the U should not contribute to athletic facilities at the U while
the LDS students who do not attend BYU have some of their tithing funds used to
build real nice facilities at BYU.
@crimsonute"So you're going to look at a $32 million athletic
department budget and tell me, "These days, big universities have become
football corporations with a school attached, not vice versa." What a load
of garbage."Doug Robinson wasn't referring to the Pukes when he
said "Big Universities." he was referring to traditional college
football powers.Hope that clears things up for you.@blowhard S"If students object to the fees at Utah, let them attend
BYU."The reason Utah has very many students is they all can't
get into BYU. For this reason Utah competes with UVU, USU, Weber, SUU etc for
the leftovers who can't qualify academically for BYU. It kinda all rolls
downhill. If BYU was willing to take them all in then Utah would be a community
college like SLCC.@Uteology"I wounder what schools are
losing money, AQ or non-AQ schools?"It's mostly state
institutions who are strapped financially. Recently Cal-Berkely announced a
(iirc) $12 million shortfall in their athletic dept budget and were considering
cutbacks in programs. Oregon state was also in similar financial dire straights.
They can't keep up with private schools like USC, Stanford, etc.
@hymntothesilent"And why shouldn't students pay for a program that
attracts National attention and fundraising for all programs?"They do, it's called ticket prices. USC's football team has brought a lot of
attention to the university recently, none of it good. Same with Auburn, Oregon,
Tennessee and Ohio State. If you're justifying the shakedown of poor
students to fund bigger coaches salaries, etc for all the good attention they
draw to the school, then when the attention is really bad (see USC, Oregon,
Auburn, Tennessee, Ohio St, etc) and harms the school, will the Athletic Depts
and coaches then refund that money back? Seems like it should be a two way
@ute sovertide"BYU has also had the benefit of sitting back and
collecting over $1 M a year from revenues generated by Utah and TCU playing in
BCS games."*yawn* and Utah had the benefit of sitting back and
collecting twice from TCU's BCS bowl trips yet they still can't stay out of the
red. The real problem lies with the loyalty of your fanbase. The majority of
them aren't really Utah fans, they're self-declared BYU haters. BYU,
thanks to it's loyal fanbase, is able to raise enough funds from donors, alumni,
etc to field a larger and more robust athletic dept including significantly
better facilities, fielding more revenue draining sports programs than Utah does
and still manages to finish in the black.If Utah had more true fans,
they'd be able to fundraise more and not have to break the backs of their
impoverished students.@Dutchman"my kids not only pay
student fees to support Utah athletics they also pay LDS church tithing funds
that are used to build BYU's outstanding athletic facilities"And many BYU students and their families who live in Utah pay local and state
taxes that fund Utah sports. Just for the record.
Scoreboard,"The reason Utah has very many students is they all
can't get into BYU. For this reason Utah competes with UVU, USU, Weber, SUU etc
for the leftovers who can't qualify academically for BYU."Your
comment is reasonable until you reach the part, "for the leftovers who
can't qualify academically for BYU."That is very elitist don't
you think and it continues to give BYU fans a bad rap for putting their noses in
the air. The church teaches members to avoid class distinctions. I hope that
you can acquire the ability to not look down on some. It may interest you to
know that many college bound kids go to other schools because they want to or
there is a program available to them at that school not because they can't
qualify for entrance to BYU.
@ Dukhummer" We are talking about funding the athletic department on
the backs of students. BYU doesn't do that and neither should utah ".
After calling the BYU athletic department ticket office the charge for a
student section pass is either $ 115.00 for a mixed seat or 150.00 dollars for
the same seat at each game. $ 150 per student x 33,000 (est.) students =
4,950,000$ from the 2010 season. This years ticket price will not come out until
August when new charges are evaluated and levied.
The whole matter seems to stem from a lack of prestige. When you live with
garbage you smell like garbage! Those living among the roses take with them
that personna. UU will be better able to hold its head up when engaged in
nationally televised feats of derring do and athletic supremacy. There are
those of us who will remain loyal to those schools in the WAC and Mountain West
Conference just 'cause that's where we live and maintain our attitudes, values,
and standards. The Utes have severed this fundamental loyalty which many of us
have for these "little guy" teams. I will never enjoy the U as a
representative of the little guy image which we mountain teams had, nor will I
spend a penny to observe them in a bout with their salt water liberal peers.
@TheHailstorm:As for in-state schools that kill their students with
fees, look no further than Utah State. BYU paying the $115 or $150 for a pass
is an OPTION, at Utah State they MUST PAY FEES that subsidize an athletic
department that lost over $1 million last year if they want to attend the school
Scoreboard -Dutchman's right. I, for one, received both my degrees
from Weber State. The reason why had everything to do with location - I live in
the Ogden area. Since I didn't want the 3-hour round-trip drive, I didn't even
consider applying to BYU. I could have easily gone to BYU (I Graduated Summa Cum
Laude and hold a valid temple recommend), but Weber State made more sense.My Father, One Brother, and One Sister all graduated from the 'Y', and
I've been a supporter of BYU through the years. I really love BYU, but some fans
need to refrain from posting insulting, degrading statements. Please think
through your posts before you make them. Both my Weber State degrees have been
valuable to me - just as valuable to me as the BYU degrees and Utah degrees are
to the people I manage.
utesovertide The article was about last year's ath;etic budget ...
soooo ... which BCS game did you all play in? I seem to recall a brutal slaying
@Dutchman:LDS Church tithing funds DO NOT support athletics at BYU
in any way shape or form. Edwards Stadium, The Marriott Center, Miller Park and
the indoor practice facility were all built by raising private donations. While
Utah was able to get some revenue from SLOC for Rice-Eccles Stadium, it was also
a large donation from the Spencer Eccles Foundation that covered the costs. No
state tax-payer funds were used. The biggest reason Utah and BYU are in the
position they are in and Utah State has all their problems is substantially
larger networks of donors where Utah State fans think the state should hand them
taxpayer $$$ to rebuild Romney Stadium etc
Scoreboard,"And many BYU students and their families who live
in Utah pay local and state taxes that fund Utah sports. Just for the
record."Again and again, but I guess it is my lot in life to
beat this drum, None and I mean none of your state and local taxes go to
support, operate, build facilities or maintain Utah sports. That is the record.
So let it be written so let it be done. If the taxpayers of Utah actually
supported the education programs at the U at the level the LDS Church supports
that level at BYU it would free up a lot of private donations that are currently
supporting the U into new facilities and upgrades that would rival anything BYU
Collin CardDid I say the Utes played in a BCS bowl last year?
No.What I was alluding to is that when finances are reported, if
there is excess income from the year or savings, it is added to the assets and
carried over to the next year. So I was saying that $1 M from 2005 (Utah), $1 M
from 2009 (Utah), $1 M from 2010 (TCU) and $1 M from 2011 (TCU), if never spent,
would be $4 M in assets over expenses which could account for the 'cushion' in
the budget that BYU is enjoying.Thanks though.
Duckhunter wrote this comment on May 9, 2011. He is a huge BYU supporter and in
other comments has stated that he owns a construction company and is an insider
on how budgets work at BYU. Duckhunter wrote this:"the operations of
the athletic department are funded by football and basketball revenues plus
donor dollars. That is not how all of the FACILITIES are built and maintained.
They do fund raise to help pay for facility construction but like all
other facilities on campus they are built, upgraded, and maintained through
university funds. They fund raise to help pay for facility construction for all
of the buildings on campus but the church still pays the difference and that is
how it is done. THE LDS CHURCH, which owns and sponsors BYU, pays for the
facilities on campus. They insist on everything being top of the line and they
pay to have it be top of the line. That includes ALL CAMPUS FACILITIES athletic
or otherwise. yes they fund raise to help pay for them but that is all.
utesovertide -Wouldn't it be nice if Accounting worked that way?
Actually, the amount divided between the members of the MWC varied, depending on
the expenses of the team going to the bowl game. Let's pretend for a minute that
half the $8M averaged by these teams were used as expenses - Football team
travel, Band/Cheerleader travel, unsold tickets, meals, Hotel rental, etc. That
would leave 4M to divide among the 9 teams in the MWC, or about 450,000 per
school. That means that each MWC teams would receive a total of 1.8M over the
period of 2005-2011 for these four games. Additional amounts were received by
other MWC teams participating in other bowl games - though not as large a
'payday' as the BCS bowls. The information I provided above was that BYU
reported 46.5 Million dollars in revenue from all Athletic-related events for
the 2009-2010 season. Their expenditures were 42 Million, resulting in a net
balance of 4.5 Million dollars for the 2009-2010 year. At most, only about 1/2
Million of the 4.5 Million could be from BCS funds received as a result of TCU's
The BCS needs to get out of the unpaid student athlete sports business and
become what they really are already; a professional NFL minor league sporting
talent agency. Universities could partner with the BCS and be the
local sponsor for this football minor league, for a profit share of course, and
the BCS can finally stop getting rich off of the backs of starving student
athletes. The BCS can rent university stadiums and pay for the
upkeep. They can harvest the best athletes and sell them to the NFL and continue
making their billions in revenue. Athletes can get paid a minor league salary
and can even attend the university as a student if they choose. And
best of all, universities can return to what they were intended to be; places of
You know what's great about the increase in ticket prices? When the football
players sell their complimentary tickets, they will now get more money. That's
what the players do in the PAC10 with their tickets, isn't it?
First, how much BYU spends on its facilities, etc. is absolutely relevant to the
question I raised regarding whether Utah is having to spend because they want to
step-up and be more competitive versus having to spend because they're joining
the PAC-12. BYU and Utah are both trying to step-up their programs and I
believe BYU has been spending more and will continue to spend as much as Utah.
Second, it is humorous to read you Utahans bicker among yourselves
about the relative quality of education at your second-tier "safety
@ CougFaninTX | 8:53 p.m. June 29, 2011 Frisco, TX Independance = nobody wanted you.
KanklesIndependent = we didn't want the MTN, but ESPN wanted usPAC 12 Dependent = ESPN still didn't want you
Dutchman is correct. BYU does pay for its athletic facilities, and other
facilities, through fundraising. But that is not the end of it. Once built
facilities are then maintained by the facilities dept. at BYU and when they
upgrade, fix, maintain, etc they are paid for by university funds. They don't go
out and raise funds simply because they need to replace say 30' of fence at the
baseball stadium or the carpet in the football offices. It's just standard
building maintenence and university funds that pays for it. Not everything built
and maintained is done through fundraising alone. Sure the really big projects
are done mostly in that manner but there is plenty done without having an entire
fundraising campaign to do it.
To Doug and all the local so-called sports writers not named Dirk Facer:If you can't say anything positive about Utah's move to the PAC-12,
please find some other way to make a living.
The PAC asked Utah and not BYU. Sorry Mr. Robinson and other Cougar fans. It
just happened that way. It's time to move on.....the sour grapes going over a
year now, well, just aren't very becoming.
"Oops, nobody bothered to mention the price. It turns out that this Pac-12
move is like buying a car; when you go to close the deal, there are a lot of
other fees nobody bothered to tell you about.Don't you wish somebody
had mentioned this when everyone was kicking the Pac-12 tires last summer?
Somehow, they left that part out, or forgot about it in all the
excitement."Oh, c'mon, Doug! Didn't you bother to attend the
news conference on June 17, 2010? Didn't you check your notes? FYI, Dr. Hill
made it very clear at that news conference that PAC-12 membership would require
a higher financial commiment from the Ute family. Your comments reflect lazy,
"Does the average engineering student or theater arts major care about the
football team?".They do now. As matter of fact, faced with
tuition and fees increasing to cover the athletics' budget's shortfalls, they'll
now be avid fans praying for undefeated seasons every year so that big bowl
paychecks will spare them from steeper increases.
Wow Doug this is really poor reporting... Talk about giving your readers a false
impression.Talking about student activity fees (which have been in
place for 25+ years, i.e. they are not new) w/o talking about student tickets is
disingenuous.How much do Utah students pay for tickets to Football
games, Basketball games, Gym meets, or any other sporting event? You should
inform your readers that it is NOTHING... At least it is nothing out of pocket,
the sizable block of tickets set aside for students are paid for by those
"gouging activities fees."Now you can talk fairness,
obviously the student going to 6 home football games, a dozen Basketball games,
and 6 home Gym meets is getting a heck of a deal, divide 24 events by his/her
fees paid and that is below market price... The student that doesn't care about
sports and never goes is subsidizing the "tickets" of those that go,
but it is not at all fair to portray students as getting nothing of value in
return for their activities fee.Again this system has been in place
at Utah for over 25 years, it is not new.
That high-priced, shiney, new sports car is thrilling as you're driving it off
the showroom floor, and the exorbitant monthly payments may not seem like a big
deal, but when that car picks up a few dents and starts to sputter to 7-5 or 6-6
or even, gulp, losing season finishes with no bowl, those huge monthly payments
may become a lot harder to swallow. How excited will Utah fans be to be paying
filet mignon prices for chopped liver when the football program takes it
inevitable dip into mediocrity?See Utah basketball 1998 --> 2010
First of all, I don't fault Utah for jumping into the arms race (even though it
seems as though they've been doing just fine against the PAC-10 without all that
money).However, I do agree with Doug's basic point. When did college
football become the tail that wags the dog? I'm sure its been a more gradual
change than it seems. Don't get me wrong...college football is what makes fall
so worthwhile. It's just concerning to think that so much money intended for
education is going towards football teams that aren't even financially viable.
Though I love sports, I readily admit that our society will not remain viable if
this trend continues at the collegiate level.
One thing that has been lightly touched on here but not really examined is how
much the rest of the university benefits financially from the football/athletic
program. I would think there is some positive benefit, especially when a
particular sport is doing well, but how much is it? Does having a top 25 ranked
football team benefit the school enough that it justifies charging students
higher fees and tuition to attend?I'm not just asking if football
pays for itself, or even if the athletic department as a whole pays for itself,
but does it actually benefit the school as a whole enough to charge its students
more to attend the school? Are the students, whether they are actual sports fans
or not, benefit enough from having an top athletic program to justify paying
more to attend the school? That is the real question.
Doug Robinson, Dick Harmon, and to a somewhat lesser extent Brad Rock have been
the flag bearers of all bitterness on the part of Cougar fans. The PAC wanted
the Utes.....no courtesy call necessary.But wait, what's that I keep
hearing, independence is "so much better" than the PAC. LOL. Great,
enjoy independence and quit finding strange angles to criticize the Utes success
and good fortune.You get on the college football map when you win
BCS bowls -- but not until then. BYU falls short.
@i still can't say it"You get on the college football map when
you win BCS bowls -- but not until then. BYU falls short"I am
wondering where in the College Football Hall of Fame there is a display for
utah's bcs bowl wins? I'll give you a hint, there isn't one. You can find one
for BYU's Football National Championship however.You see there are
30 something bowl games played every single year and over 60 teams play in them.
It is really no big deal, certainly not anything of note, to play in any of them
or even win one of them other than one particular one. That one of note, the one
that actually gets a place in the College Football Hall of Fame, is the one that
results in a National Champion being declared. You are not on the
college football map at all until you win a national Championship. utah falls
Utah original BCS buster > BYU "faux" national champion 30 years
@i still can't say itAnd yet BYU has won the National Championship
and utah has not. You can call it whatever you want to call it but the trophies
are still there and history books still make note of it. I can tell
you it is an elation you will never feel and it feels good.
I think this will all work itself out. The Utes have very capable people
managing athletics and will work their way into the PAC-12 quite nicely. This
year presents an unbelievably good opportunity to make some noise in
football.People do need to know, however, that some of that money
will have to go toward making the other sports at least competitive in the new
league. That will certainly mean building new venues, paying higher coaches'
salaries, increasing recruiting budgets, etc.The lovely football
stadium was government subsidized rather than paid for by private donors. That
will need to change if the fan base increases and more people want to attend
home games. It is one of the smallest stadiums in the league.But
for right now, everything depends on winning all those league games at home this
fall. Road wins will be very hard to come by. The Utes played the PAC 12 ten
times in the last decade--6 games at home and 4 on the road. They won once on
the road.But what a time to be a Ute. So much opportunity. Who
could ask for more?
I Still Can't Say It#1 > #2Always has been and always
will be.Someday, if it ever happens, the kids on the hill will
understand why winning a BCS bowl is insignificant compared to winning the
creme-de-la-creme of major college football -- a national championship.
I am happy for the U. Both BYU and Utah deserved to have a shot at the BCS, and
both are positioning themselves to do that.However, it is simply
insane to engage in an "Arms Race" for the sake of saying it.
Apparently recruits care?WRONG! Most parents and recruits care that
the facilities and trainers are competitive. They aren't idiots who are simply
wowed by how much you spent...trust me.Kyle has established enough
of a winning tradition, that he'll get his kids. This notion of spending is
simply an uniformed, immature approach to the unknown. I trust it will level
off in the years to come when a cycle of recruits, and results are in, and Utah
feels comfortable in its PAC 12 skin.Until then its like watching
our congress do their typical..."I don't know, throw money at it". As
was pointed out...how'd you get to the dance in the first place?