Comments about ‘Readers' forum: Who voted for HB116?’

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Published: Thursday, June 23 2011 12:00 a.m. MDT

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The Real Maverick
Orem, UT

Your Utah legislature, at work! Walla folks!

Methinks the curtain has been removed and now we're seeing the Wizard for who he really is.

wjalden
Cottonwood Heights, UT

You have to smirk a little at anyone who defends her side by denigrating her allies. Ms. Griffin's defense basically relies on the belief that her allies lacked the dedication and fortitude to see out the entire meeting, which was implicitly their job when entrusted by their friends and neighbors to represent them at the state convention. If your exucse for losing is that your side is lousier than ours, well I'm happy to believe it.

As for the poll, there are polls designed to seek out the truth and there are polls designed to move opinion. Polls looking for the truth are often elaborately crafted, expensive to conduct, and kept close to the vest of the politicians and corporations who sponsor them.

Minor changes in wording can alter the results dramatically. The vaunted Dan Jones 61% poll: 1) polled only 406 people; 2) referred to illegal immigrants as "undocumented immigrants" - which has a huge psychological impact on those being polled; 3) referred to them as "guestworkers" when experience suggests the "guests" will never go home; 4) *assumes* the state will validate their employment status and criminal history before granting them permits to remain.

wjalden
Cottonwood Heights, UT

I'd like to extend my prior comments a little. In 2008, Rep. Chris Cannon nearly lost the Republican nomination at the state convention when Jason Chaffetz fell just shy of the 60% needed to receive the Republican endorsement outright. The convention delegates were written off as extremists unrepresentative of the 3rd Distict Republicans as a whole...until Chaffetz went on to win the primary by an even larger margin than he'd won at the convention.

Of course, then the primary voters were written off as unrepresentative of...the people who were too lazy to bother to show up to vote. I guess it's not too shocking that that Chaffetz/Cannon race centered on illegal immigration, as well.

Do I think state delegates are representative of the whole state, or even their party? Quite possibly they aren't. What they ARE representative of is the responsible, well-informed and civic-minded people we rely on to govern this country wisely and justly.

anti-liar
Salt Lake City, UT

Ah. I see what you're saying, Rebekah: The ones who did their jobs and stayed for the vote were the bad guys -- the "extremists."

Sorry, Rebekah, but the conjecture also could be made that those 600 who left, though indeed foolish and derelict in their duty, also were fully confident that the resolution would pass by a very wide margin and that their votes therefore would be superfluous and surplus.

Regarding the poll, many dismiss it as ridiculously inaccurate. It is easy to rig a poll. One way is to screen out those most likely to give the "wrong" answer through the use of "qualifying questions." I myself heard one caller to a local radio show testify that he personally was disqualified by the Dan Jones company for this very poll when he revealed, during the "qualifying" questionnaire, that he has an advanced degree, that he does not read the newspaper, and that he instead uses the Internet and listens to the radio (likely meaning talk radio). Also, the Dan Jones company is well aware of Utah demographics and telephone prefix maps and knows very well where proponents of illegal immigration and HB116 are most likely to live.

Esquire
Springville, UT

It is as simple as this: right wing bullies who cannot accept the results of a democratic system.

tenx
Santa Clara, UT

Perhaps all 600 delegates who went home early knew what the people knew, that HB116 would be voted to be repealed. Rebekah, how about getting to work on repealing it and getting something like E-verify in place for all employers to use.

praxis
Salt Lake City, UT

Rebekah - the simple fact is that supporters of HB116 refuse to admit is that a Utah Guest Worker program is not needed as there is already a solution in place for workers to come to the U.S. legally - the EXISTING Federal Guest Worker program with categories for different work types:

- Permanent Labor Certification: A certification issued by the Department of Labor (DOL) allows an employer to hire a foreign worker to work permanently in the United States.

- H-2A Temporary Labor Certification (Seasonal Agricultural): Program for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers to bring non-immigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature.

- H-2B Temporary Labor Certification (Non-agricultural): Program permits employers to hire foreign workers to come temporarily to the U.S. and perform temporary non-agricultural services or labor on a one-time, seasonal, peakload or intermittent basis.

For those that say the process/program is broken, an article published in the NY Times, 09 July 2010, shows otherwise. Continued-

praxis
Salt Lake City, UT

From the NY Times article:
Immigration and Customs Enforcement conducted an audit of employees at Gebbers Farms, an apple producer in Brewster, Washington. ICE found evidence that more than 500 of its workers, mostly immigrants from Mexico, were in the country illegally. ICE then advised Gebbers Farms of Social Security and immigration numbers that did not check out with federal databases. The workers were then fired.

John Morton, the head of the immigration agency, said the goal of the audits is to create "a culture of compliance" among employers, so that verifying new hires would be as routine as paying taxes. ICE leaves it up to employers to fire workers whose documents cannot be validated. But an employer who fails to do so risks prosecution.

After completing a federally mandated local labor search, Gebbers Farms applied to the federal guest worker program to import about 1,200 legal temporary workers most from Mexico. The guest workers, who can stay for up to six months, also included about 300 from Jamaica.

HB116 should be replaced with legislation REQUIRING all companies to use E-Verify and the EXISTING Federal Guest Worker program.

Al
Vernal, UT

@ anti-liar

I, too, was a delegate who voted against the resolution. I stayed the entire time even though I had to drive back to Vernal afterwards. There were 'extremists' in attendance who tried several times to disrupt the proceedings of the convention. Enid Mickelson did a masterful job in not allowing them to do so.

You tend do dismiss poll results when they don't agree with your opinion, but when they do, you use them as proof fo your opinion. You claim to "have heard" on some local radio talk show someone say they were disqualified for this very poll because of certain reasons. What radio show? Who was the accusing person (name)? How do I know that you are not just making everything up?

Dan Jones performs many polls and surveys each year and has experience. If they were to be as manipulative as you claim, they would have gone out of business in Utah long ago. I'm sure that in the past you have quoted Dan Jones polls to prove your point of view. Don't try to defame just because the results of one poll were not what you think the should be.

Emophiliac
Vernal, UT

Rebekah might want to talk with the Utah GOP leadership then, to find out why the vote was scheduled so late. I'm sure it wasn't because they thought the vote on HB116 was low-priority. Rather, I'm sure they were hoping that waiting would result in the resolution failing. Looks like it didn't work out their way.

Perhaps the Utah GOP leadership is clueless. But, more likely, the Utah GOP leadership has goals that don't match up with the average Utah Republican.

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

In any two-way vote, one side will "win" and one side will "lose". Complaining about a loss after the fact only shows that either you did not work hard enough to explain your position, or that your position was the "extreme" position and the "winners" held the correct position.

Why did we reject a monarchy? Was it just possible that the king, even when advised by his "wise men" only had his interests in mind? Is it possible that the "wise men" who passed HB116 were clueless about the message they were sending?

Is it possible that HB116 should be repealed because it creates "de facto" amnesty?

Is it possible that stealing Social Security numbers, using government services, and lying about citizenship are crimes that require deportation?

HB116 gives a job to those who knowing break our laws. I would like a job. Should I hurry down to Mexico and sneak back into the country, steal someone else's I.D., lie about my activities, and then expect someone to hire me?

Irony Guy
Bountiful, Utah

A cursory acquaintance with history reveals that a party and ideology that blames all its problems on a downtrodden minority, that exalts the "exceptionalism" of its own nation, and that worships the weapons of war is known as "fascism."

cymrul
West Valley City, UT

HA!!! A Utah politician complaining about politicians and politics in Utah! Welcome to the real world, now you know why we as citizens get frustrated and discouraged by those who are supposed to represent us. So, what are you going to do about it Rebekah??

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

The funny thing about HB116 is that for it to go into effect, it requires a waiver from the Federal Government. So, even without it being repealed, it cannot be enacted.

leer
Salt Lake City, UT

Had the 600 delegates stayed, I am convinced you would have seen a wider margin in support of the resolution to repeal...it's a bad bill...all you need to do is read it to figure it out.

Utah is this country's immigration reform pawn - HB116 is not only an imperfect bill, it's a flawed bill that sets a precedent that will take this state and country down a frightening path if not significantly amended or repealed and replaced.

A better, more equitable, constitutionlly sound bill is required. Utah can do much better.

danaslc
Kearns, UT

I believe that if more would have stayed, the bill would have lost by a larger margin. There were phone polls going around for many days before the convention. I believe our politician's knew that they were going to lose by the polls and that is why they pushed the vote till much later in the day. I do not know why Rebekah would want this bill to pass when so many are out of work. Our teenagers who can work part time and help their parents out with school clothes and extra activities should be working to learn the value of work. Those jobs are taken by illegal immigrants. Why Rebekah would want to force taxes down the throats of citizens to pay for illegal immigration is socialistic. It is time Rebekah stops looking through liberal eyes and sees the drugs that enter the state and the crime that is entering our state. #116 is for special interest groups. It is not for the citizen.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

"There were rumblings that this resolution was delayed on purpose. "

I think it was but for a benign reason. If you save it for last that'll motivate more people to stay for the whole thing. Since turnout apparently is poor they didn't want to have that go first and then have everyone just leave after that vote.

Mary E Petty
Sandy, UT

In 1776 a group of American patriots courageously, but illegally, for the law of their day, declared independence from their unjust British rulers. I see the attempts of the Utah Legislature to find workable solutions to our current federally induced immigration fiasco, as an equally courageous attempt to institute just law.

Their efforts wont be 100%; but I am hopeful there are enough people in America who live courageously by the principles of the Great Commandment and the Second, that is like unto it. Do we have that same courage today to be such patriots and change unjust immigration law?

Watch Dog
Provo, UT

The history of our party demonstrates clearly that those running our party intentionally schedule resolutions at the end of the meeting. The reason is simple, they know that after 5-6 hours, delegates do get discouraged and leave.

Their problem this time around was that the pro-illegal alien lobby underestimated the willingness of those that want HB116 repealed to stay till the resolution did finally come up for a vote. (It's not that they didn't try their game once again, for they did.)

It is shameful that our party leaders utilize this ploy to eliminate the voice of those that are simply looking for any way for an honest debate of the issues they consider worthy of discussion. Yet, they have done this for years and years.

This time, they just didn't count on the anger of the delegates over the foolish passage of HB116. One thing, this anger of this group of delegates will make for an interesting upcoming election next time around! Very interesting indeed.

goatesnotes
Kamas, UT

The very Utah County extremists who advocate repealing HB 116 are perhaps the same people who go to Sunday School the next day and hear the "Love One Another" lesson. Their response in Sunday School is likely, "Of course I love everyone, just as the Savior admonishes, but I get to pick who they are." Reminds me of a group of Pharisees.

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