One of the reasons students do well after leaving elite universities like
Harvard is that the competition is so strenuous, both the get in and to stay in.
A rising tide lifts all boats.Another reason is that students'
minds are really challenged. Great universities challenge students' ways of
thinking (BYU, I think, is a great univerisity, by the way; it is increasingly
being recognized as such; it challenges the young people who go there; you might
be surprised at the wide variety of thinking that goes on at the school). I
studied with and fought with a Marxist professor at the University of California
and found, after all the frustration and disagreement, that it was very good for
me; I learned a lot. I mean to suggest that great universities will not be
dominated by either liberals or conservatives, but will have truly open
thinkers.If the Harvard model of governance, funding, and teaching
is being rejected as obsolete, by all means keep the Harvard model of
excellence, competition, and respect for thinking.
@The RockYou said:"The children of baggage handlers,
construction workers and janitors cannot pay the tuition at elite
universities."Maybe I was too subtle. Yes, I agree.
Universities who have brought in statisticians to squeeze as much value out of
their applicants so that they can shift the supply-demand curve too higher
revenues and still match some standard of diversity dictated by the Chronicle of
Higher Education no longer are providing a true liberal education.Tekakaromatagi
re: TheProudDuck | 1:04 p.m. June 18, 2011 Agreed about Stanford's
bias.I don't disagree about Engineering & the hard sciences
being more conservative. Could it be because there is a fixed
process in place and/or because liberals are more comfortable with the
re Taipei ModerateYou saidEven the smartest guy in the
world with all of the best interpersonal skills and street smarts will struggle
to get elite opportunities graduating from UVU, the U, and other programs.-------------While its true that a graduate from an Ivy
league school will get better job offers at higher pay upon graduation than
others, other people can be just as successful. They have to achieve this
success after they are hired, or they can start their own business.------------------re Nosea | 7:59 p.m. June 17, 2011The advantage elite universities have over some others is they don't
have to cater to those not prepared to be at university. Some community colleges
doand their education is substandard as a result. The elite universities are
free to go full speed ahead. I graduated in engineering from Utah State
University. Though not an elite university, its school of engineering provided a
solid education and I was impressed with the other classes I took too. Utah
State University engineering graduates can compete with any in the world, but
the job offers / pay levels they get don't match what graduates of ivy league
level graduates get.
Harvard brochure:"Loans are not required; home equity is not
used in aid calculationsFree for parents with incomes under
$60,000Zero to 10 percent of annual family income for those from
$60,000 to $180,000 with normalFinancial assetsAid available
for some families with incomes above $180,000 facing unusual financial
@Tekakaromatagi"The most liberal thing that a university can do
is to be a good educational value so that the children of baggage handlers,
construction workers and janitors can get a good education and move out of
poverty."The children of baggage handlers, construction workers
and janitors cannot pay the tuition at elite universities.
"Elite universities are both conservative like Chicago, Stanford, and
MIT"Stanford? STANFORD??!!?Stanford has the
conservative Hoover Institution think tank tucked away on a corner of the
campus. Trust me, the rest of the place is anything but conservative.Except the engineering department, of course. Hard sciences tend to be
conservative, because liberal touchy-feely pretense doesn't translate well into
disciplines where you actually have to get and care about the right answer.
I wouldn't call Princeton particularly "liberal." They are home to one
of the most conservative social think tanks in the country. Also, the idea that
academics as a whole is unjustly liberal is baloney. After all, the facts tend
to have a liberal bias.But what I don't understand is the obsession
with the Ivy League. Is it the nation's best university? Yes. But public
universities like Michigan, Texas, North Carolina, California, Georgia Tech, and
Washington compete with the Ivy League on an equal or higher academic level in
many fields. Not to mention private non-Ivy schools like Duke, Northwestern,
Vanderbilt, Emory, and USC. Even BYU and Utah graduates are widely respected at
the national level; I'm a BYU grad, and got into Georgia Tech's engineering
graduate school over people who went to MIT and Stanford.There is a
long list of universities that successfully apply the traditional academic
model, to the benefit of their communities and alumni. I think Christensen and
Eyring's study is not aimed at major schools like the U, the Y and Utah State,
but rather Dixie State, SUU, and UVU.
The most liberal thing that a university can do is to be a good educational
value so that the children of baggage handlers, construction workers and
janitors can get a good education and move out of poverty.Everything
else is just talk.Tekakaromatagi
Public K-12 education is very expensive as well costing over $20,000 per student
in many states. Public schools are at the 50% percentile by definition.Homeschooling is much less expensive (okay, they get free labor) with some
curricula costing as little as $99 for a full K-12 program. There are many free
resources online.In homeschooling children read and discuss classic
books, work real world math problems and turn their kitchen into a chemistry
laboratory. Families hire or trade tutoring when necessary. They also form
groups and go on field trips.I see zero reason that for
non-laboratory classes universities could not adopt a similar model. Such a
university would consist of a library, tutoring center and a testing center. The
library could be either a traditional library or web based. Lectures, when
necessary or desired, could be delivered via U-Tube (University Tube). Just
stick a camcorder in each classroom for a year and upload the video.Discussion groups would also be web bases. They could be as simple as a group
page on Facebook.If the emphasis were on reducing costs rather than
maximizing expense we would be amazed at the results.
All of your contempt for elite universities misses the point. Elite universities
are both conservative like Chicago, Stanford, and MIT, and liberal like Harvard,
Yale, and Princeton, and exist as a required signaling method for students to
get hired by the best companies, get start up capital for ventures, and succeed
in politics. Mckinsey or Goldman hire from these schools because
they know that the student quality is going to be great and these grads are
palatable to lay people. Even the smartest guy in the world with all of the best
interpersonal skills and street smarts will struggle to get elite opportunities
graduating from UVU, the U, and other programs.
A Harvard level education can not make up for a lack luster secondary education.
Now that algebra and geometry are manditory for everyone, it is necessary to
have an honors class in both of these for those students who desire to become
scholars, i.e. our future scientists and engineers. An honors class is one where
challenging problems are given, where the proofs of the theorems presented and
done by the students.A student who has a substandard secondary
education will not have this made up in a quality university.
If you think higher education is expensive, you should try ignorance!
Its not where you get your education but what you do with it. Remember an
encounter on the bus with a man with a master's degree in physics from Cal Tech.
He was a street person who shared his carefully laid out travel plan showing
and rating homeless shelters in the US and how long he could stay. When I asked
him why he didn't use his education to get a job his answer was, why? Then I
would have to pay taxes and put up with a boss. The smartest scientist I ever
met graduated from South Dakota School of Mines and the most bumbling from
We've seen some real bubble-headed (so-called) leaders come out of Harvard in
the last several decades. I agree that universities should stop imitating
Harvard at least in their tendency to hire secular leftists who spread their
nonsense to youthful, naive minds.
Yeah, DN Subscriber, Palin knows all about higher education.She attended
enough universities that she has a view from several different points and she
can still see Russia from her front porch.
Nosea above just made an excellent argument as to why Sarah Palin's education is
just as qualifying for the Presidency as any of the last several Presidents. Of course, the grades of all are known to the public except for the
incumbent who strenuously works to keep his grades concealed, along with just
about everything else about his background and meager qualifications.
Just look at the parade of national leaders and publicly visible people with
degrees from the Ivy League schools (George Bush comes to mind, as a classic
example), and the blatant lack of knowledge and judgment they display. Also many
of the top players in the financial crisis, that nearly sank the world economy,
also herald from Harvard and Yale. It all denotes that these elite schools are
severely lacking, and certainly do not bestow any greater intelligence than any
other accredited university, despite their extravagant costs and overrated
curriculum. Rather than imitate the elite schools, they should be regarded as
failures not to model and reformed to instill a greater level of intelligence
than that we see so clearly on display by some of their most prominent
Last thing we need is more GW Bush or Al Gore clonesSeriously, why
spend all that $ to jump thru hoops when the bookstore or the 'net is closer,
cheaper, & less stressful??
Underlying all that Harvard does is the hard left wind ideology that infects
their faculty.Understanding that fact alone justifies basically
ignoring everything else Harvard does, if you are truly interested in quality
and useful education.Much like the New York Times is no longer a
role model for the news industry.Times are a changing.
@DeltaFoxtrotDon't count on the costs falling. When enrollment declines,
the fixed costs must be spread over the smaller enrollment base, the average
cost per student increases and the institution appeals to the Legislature for
increased funding. Perversely, when the enrollment increases, the institution
again appeals to the Legislature, now using the argument that they need more
money because of the increased enrollment.That's just the way it
Please tell me there is more to this book than hybrid courses. Everybody is
doing that already. I guess I should read the book and not rely on the article
for a complete picture.
Higher Ed is ripe for disruption in the form of invasive technology,
competition, and obsolesence of the current model. Those institutions that
recognize and adapt will survive. Those that cling to the past will not.
Higher Education is the next bubble to pop. Costs are gonna fall fall fall over
the next few decades as enrollment drops, and underperforming schools are going
to close their doors.